TheManaDrain.com
December 04, 2021, 06:43:46 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
Author Topic: Anyone running 3 copies of Gifts?  (Read 5138 times)
rakso
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 150



View Profile WWW
« on: October 26, 2005, 11:07:10 am »

For discussion's sake. (Yeah, I know it's two days away.)

For my mental note convenience, I like to think of the difference between the Shortbus and Mean Deck Gifts as a matter of running 4 Thirst or 2 Scroll, 2 Gifts in those four slots.

Has anyone blurred the lines by, for example, running 3 Thirst, 2 Scroll, 3 Gifts or something like that?
Logged

Team Paragons, Still open for franchise
rakso@starcitygames.com
Rakso on #BDChat, EFNet
Writer, Star City
doylehancock
Basic User
**
Posts: 167



View Profile
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2005, 02:16:46 pm »

I did try that for a while but decided gifts was better than thirst.  This weekend I am trying 2 tfk, 2 merchant, and 4 gifts.  Just to see how it does.
Logged

Team Sexboat: We will sex you up
Blitzbold
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 57


131670098
View Profile
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2005, 02:18:50 pm »

My current build has 3 Gifts and 2 Merchant Scrolls and Thirsts each.
Logged

The second mouse gets the cheese.

doylehancock
Basic User
**
Posts: 167



View Profile
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2005, 02:57:32 pm »

My current build has 3 Gifts and 2 Merchant Scrolls and Thirsts each.

do you like the 2 tfk, 2 scrolls, and 3 gifts build?

how many non mana artifacts are you running?

can I get a list?
Logged

Team Sexboat: We will sex you up
mr_rogers
Basic User
**
Posts: 177


abct69
View Profile Email
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2005, 04:02:41 pm »

I am upping the count of gifts to atleast 3 in my latest list.  I am also cutting TFK down to 2 or none depending on room in the deck.
Logged

Team WTF!?!?!............Big multicolored hats rule!
MaxxMatt
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 482


King Of Metaphors


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2005, 04:46:01 pm »

I try to argument a bit more my maindeck choices.

At now I'm playing this deck's structure with HUGE satisfaction ( the cards not written are played in "usual" quantities and they aren't questioned at now) :

4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Gifts Ungiven

AND

3 Cunning Wish
2 Merchant Scrolls


I finally drop down to 8 the counters/protections of that deck, finding space for Furnaces and Shamans ( 2 + 2 = 4 Slots ).
Due to the presence of those Cunnings, I dropped Burning Wish and the ToA's plan for the Brain Freeze's one.
It is blue and satisfing enough for me.
I play with "only" 3 Gifts because I have Gifts#4 in my side to wish for ( aside with Gush ).
No removals or bouncers maindeck if we exclude Cunnings and a defensive Tinker-->DSC.
In this way I have a large access to both drawers and solutions thanks to Merchants AND Cunnings.


I play 13 Maindeck Artifacts ( 10 mana accelerations, 1 DSC and 2 Furnaces ) to feed TFKs and they have been enough for me at now.

The configuration do its best against Control and Control-Combo decks, because of the strong draw components and the additional "denial" plan for Moxen and Graveyard.

I played with those changes at my last tourney
-2 TFKs
-2 Merchant
-1 Vault
+2 Duresses
+1 Impulse
+1 Skeletal
+1 Stripmine
+1 CoW ( 61st card )

but I find the mana base really shaky because of the need of BOTH those two secondary colors during the early game ( Duresses and Shamans ).
I missed the Top8 for rating problems and I lost only to Fish-Ur.
That unwanted loss forced me to focus on my mana base more than before and I dropped the black component almost completely ( if we exclude Y Will and Demonic ).

The deck is:

10 VaultCryPetalSoLoMoxen
4 Islands
3 Volcanic
2 Undeground
2 Polluted
2 Flooded
1 Academy
1 LoA

4 Brainstorm
4 TFK
3 Gifts
1 Ancestral
1 FoF
1 Walk

3 Cunning
2 Merchant
1 Demonic
1 Mystical
1 Tinker

2 Shaman
2 Furnaces
1 DSC
1 Y. Will
1 Recoup

---
2 R&R
1 ReB
1 Pyro
1 Rapid Decay
1 Gifts
1 Gush
1 Brainfreeze
1 Duress
1 Rebuild
1 Rushing
1 H. Recall
1 Edict
1 Vampiric
1 F/I

------------------

Depending on the mana on table, a possible plan is to Scroll for Ancestral/Gifts as easy as with MDGifts.
Another game plan is to Fix the draws as much as possible thanks to multiple TFKs and Wishes for drawers or counters and then apply the usual Gifts plan for the victory.
The deck can try to slow down the opponent as much as play an aggressive role.

I found this configuration to be REALLY impressive against other control decks.
They cannot easily outdraw you and you have both strong early and mid game resources.
With this configuration, IMHO, it seems to assure to you the strenght of the MDGifts early game's plan and the beautiful flexibility and reactivity of the Brassman's deck during the midgame.

It perfectly fits my "controllish" style of playing.
I do not want quick kill unless they are needed.
I found them "needed" only against Fish and similar decks.
These are the only aggro-controls against which I would have preferred maindeck solutions to stop their initial wave of damages.
On the other hand, the good side give me great flexibility and new solutions, especially post side, when I have a larger access to quick solutions.


Hope it can help.

Maxx





Logged

Team Unglued - Crazy Cows of Magic since '97
--------------------
Se io do una moneta a te e tu una a me, ciascuno di noi ha una moneta
Se io do un'idea a te e tu una a me, ciascuno di noi ha due idee
mr_rogers
Basic User
**
Posts: 177


abct69
View Profile Email
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2005, 06:01:13 am »

I have just switched to 3 copies of Gifts Ungiven in my build.  So far they help get the Flame-Vault pieces together much easier than when I was running 2.  I want to do more testing but I'm really like the 3 tfk, 3 gifts setup I have right now.
Logged

Team WTF!?!?!............Big multicolored hats rule!
JigglyPuff
banned
Basic User
**
Posts: 29


i_pwn_noobs...


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2005, 01:11:15 pm »

you dont need more than 2 gifts...unless you're playing meandeck, where it finds 4 moxes or a lot of cheap spells.....

the problem with running more than two in flame/belcher gifts is getting flooded with gifts....

after the first (maybe second) gifts...you should have already won the game...and if you're stuck with two gifts in hand with three mana...your gonna wish one gift was a tfk...

thats just my opinion...

at waterbury i drew the gifts and tfks when i needed...and was never unhappy with the amount of gifts/tfk's....
Logged

TEAM OFF TWICE--WATERBURY CHAMPIONS

How's it feel to lose to a pokemon?

Team Nuts and Staff Off-Twice: Filling out 2-0 Match Slips Since......umm.........Foreve r.
warble
Basic User
**
Posts: 335


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2005, 01:37:18 pm »

I run 4 Thirst, 3 Gifts.  It was good enough to get me off to a 4-0 start at Waterbury before getting annihilated.  Personally, I run 3 Gifts because I believe the first gifts I draw will either be Force fodder or used to fetch early-game answers (and hence will probably be replaced by imperial Seal).  In any event, 3 Gifts for me was a temporary thing that has quickly faded in light of Seal becoming legal.  Keep in mind this is in a standard CS build with only Recoup/DsC supporting Gifts.  That means no Merchant Scrolls and no MisD OR Duress.
Logged
JigglyPuff
banned
Basic User
**
Posts: 29


i_pwn_noobs...


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2005, 01:46:40 pm »

@ warble
              howd u do day 2 ?
Logged

TEAM OFF TWICE--WATERBURY CHAMPIONS

How's it feel to lose to a pokemon?

Team Nuts and Staff Off-Twice: Filling out 2-0 Match Slips Since......umm.........Foreve r.
MaxxMatt
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 482


King Of Metaphors


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2005, 02:48:56 pm »

@JigglyPuff


Sorry man, but how can a deck based around Gifts ( Gifted.dec ) do better things than the other deck based around Gifts ( MeandeckGifts ) if there are almost the same Mana/Spells rate and the same game plan?

While playing 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 Gifts is ONLY a playstyle way of reasoning and approaching the deck, I think that BOTH the deck should capitalize the HUGE amount of mana that they can produce.

Gifts AND TFKs AND all the other broken Gifts's - things are good way to use it.

While talking about  Gifts#? seems a bit weird to me, especially because there aren't SURE ANSWERS but only REALLY GOOD OPTIONS, I think that we should focus far more on WHAT should you play to break the mirror.

For mirror, I usually refer to ManaDrain.Based.decs.

From my gaming experiences those ones are LARGELY BAROKEN things to do:

1) -Gorilla Shaman
2) -Tormod's Crypt/PhyrexianFurnaces
3) -Sundering Titan
4) -Better combination of Duresses/ReBs/Pyro/Mis-D/Drain/FoW/Needles
5) CoW+Strip
6) -Memnarch

I have all the 4 initial points included into my deck ( side and maindeck ).
I dropped 5) because it is too slow for the metagame.
I would try the 6) as soon as I was SURROUNDED by other Control Decks.




Logged

Team Unglued - Crazy Cows of Magic since '97
--------------------
Se io do una moneta a te e tu una a me, ciascuno di noi ha una moneta
Se io do un'idea a te e tu una a me, ciascuno di noi ha due idee
warble
Basic User
**
Posts: 335


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2005, 03:32:44 pm »

@ warble
 howd u do day 2 ?

My friend came up to Boston on Sunday so I drove back to have lunch with him and my uncle who was also visiting instead of entering all of the wonderful day 2 events that I would SO have loved to play in.  Waterbury is awesome, for the record, even if it is tough as heck to win!

@MaxxMatt

So do you think that Gifts is better supported through an entire deck instead of CS?  I'm of the opinion that the number of tutors required by a Gifts deck makes CS more optimal than Gifted.whatever because the CS win condition costs 1 mana, therefore it reduces the mana threshold you need to win.  There is also no effective way to hate CS...(except for TMWA that just romps it)...by this I mean given you don't start with a deck that is based around hating CS.  By running a narrower deck with more recursion, you're just making yourself succeptable to hate.  I have posted a bunch about how recursion helps decks, but in terms of CS it's resilience lies in the toolbox nature of the control deck, not in the recursive nature (as shown by it's dependence on draw power and tutors).  Needless to say, I'm just not convinced Gifts should be wrapped in anything other than tendrils or CS.

One other note about Memnarch...I loyally left him in my board for the last 6 months and finally, the wizard is coming out.  If a deck is succeptable to Memnarch they are usually more succeptable to Pentavite beatdown, and that is far safer than running the big fat mana sink anyday...but this might just be me being pissed about boarding Pentavus out and losing a match because of it at Waterbury...*might*
« Last Edit: October 27, 2005, 04:16:28 pm by warble » Logged
sean1i0
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 211


sean13185@hotmail.com Taylor13185
View Profile Email
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2005, 03:14:20 am »

I'm actually trying out 4 Merchant Scrolls, 4 Thirst for Knowledge, 2 Gifts in my current list.  It might end up being excessive, but in theory it should work alright.
Logged
mr_rogers
Basic User
**
Posts: 177


abct69
View Profile Email
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2005, 03:22:59 am »

This may be a bit off topic, but with running tfk, gifts, and scrolls is anyone having trouble finding room for main deck bounce or other meta cards?  I've had to cut Merchant Scroll from my list to run some anwsers like echoing truth and gorilla shaman.  Anyway let me know if anyone else is having this problem.
Logged

Team WTF!?!?!............Big multicolored hats rule!
sean1i0
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 211


sean13185@hotmail.com Taylor13185
View Profile Email
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2005, 06:26:17 am »

I have a slot for either echoing truth or engineered explosives in mine, but no shaman.
Logged
JigglyPuff
banned
Basic User
**
Posts: 29


i_pwn_noobs...


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2005, 10:14:35 am »

i ran 61 to include a maindeck echoing truth and two maindeck rebs day two....
Logged

TEAM OFF TWICE--WATERBURY CHAMPIONS

How's it feel to lose to a pokemon?

Team Nuts and Staff Off-Twice: Filling out 2-0 Match Slips Since......umm.........Foreve r.
mr_rogers
Basic User
**
Posts: 177


abct69
View Profile Email
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2005, 01:14:26 pm »

I ran 3 tfks and 2 gifts to include 1 echoing truth and 1 gorilla shaman day 2.  See my point is that running more gifts or tfks cuts down on the metagame cards run maindeck, making it weaker in certain matchups.
Logged

Team WTF!?!?!............Big multicolored hats rule!
JigglyPuff
banned
Basic User
**
Posts: 29


i_pwn_noobs...


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2005, 01:23:05 pm »

I have a slot for either echoing truth or engineered explosives in mine, but no shaman.

It depends on what type of build you are playing. If you're playing ssb/flame vault, I'd probably go with the echoin truth, but if you're playing meandeck the explosives might be stronger seeing how you could blow up tapped moxes and play them from the yard during a will to boost your storm count...Rushing river might also do the trick in meandeck. I've seen a couple builds with RR maindeck in both builds...
Logged

TEAM OFF TWICE--WATERBURY CHAMPIONS

How's it feel to lose to a pokemon?

Team Nuts and Staff Off-Twice: Filling out 2-0 Match Slips Since......umm.........Foreve r.
sean1i0
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 211


sean13185@hotmail.com Taylor13185
View Profile Email
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2005, 01:37:20 pm »

Rushing River is a really good card as far as bounce spells come, however, I feel that, given the two, Echoing Truth is stronger for being able to bounce ALL the chalices back to their hand or similar such things.  I look at Rushing River as a nice secondary bounce card if I have room to fit that into my deck; great tempo card.  As for EE v. ET, (wow, doesn't that sound exciting?) after much consideration on the issue I came to the conclusion that EE is better in a version w/thirst for the simple fact that I could pitch it if need be.  It evades chalices if I need it to and, most importantly, it kills everything that I can think of that could just plain keep me from winning game 1 in exactly the same way that ET does.
Logged
rakso
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 150



View Profile WWW
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2005, 07:38:22 pm »

Because Gifts can suddenly just play Gifts eot and go off, I've found Echoing Truth to be indispensable. You don't really need to destroy something that disrupts you; bouncing it eot will do in many cases.
Logged

Team Paragons, Still open for franchise
rakso@starcitygames.com
Rakso on #BDChat, EFNet
Writer, Star City
JigglyPuff
banned
Basic User
**
Posts: 29


i_pwn_noobs...


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2005, 09:57:21 am »

True...True...
my favorite play is fighting for a tinker, letting it resolve and merchant scrolling for echoing truth targeting the colossus.....
Logged

TEAM OFF TWICE--WATERBURY CHAMPIONS

How's it feel to lose to a pokemon?

Team Nuts and Staff Off-Twice: Filling out 2-0 Match Slips Since......umm.........Foreve r.
Scoops666
Basic User
**
Posts: 127


Guess I gotta enter my scoop phase.

Macsticky666
View Profile Email
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2005, 01:35:16 pm »

True...True...
my favorite play is fighting for a tinker, letting it resolve and merchant scrolling for echoing truth targeting the colossus.....

Then of course watch your opponent turn beat red as you counter every Brainstorm and Thirst for Knowledge so they can never get the Collossus out of hand (plus you're countering there card drawing to boot.)

But seriously, I also run 4TFk's and 3 Gifts. The 4th was just too many, 2 isn't enough, and 3 lets me pitch one to FOW if I really need to and still be relatively confident.
Logged

I actually had to explain to someone why Mana Drain was better than Counterspell. That was depressing...

Then they asked why Black Lotus was better than Gilded Lotus. I walked away.
Kieranwolf
Basic User
**
Posts: 127


Planeswalkers? I like 'em pickled and tenderized.

kierandarkfire@gmail.com Kieranwolf Kieranwolf
View Profile Email
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2005, 03:11:58 am »

3 TFK, 3 Gifts, 2 Scroll seems like the right way to go. I run Truth MB, and until I pick up Time Vault, I still favor a Rebuild while Stax's floating around. Mmm, cycling.

Both of these could be C. Wishes, but I just don't have the slots in the SB to have more instants packed in there.

Truth is a great answer to hoser artifacts and enchantments (like Chains and Uba Mask) and fatties (Goblin Goon, Mongrel, Werebears). It buys you a turn, which is usually enough with this deck to get the win engine going. Hosing your draw is useless when you've got Tinker. Bam. Dead.  Razz
Logged
forests failed you
De Stijl
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 2018


Venerable Saint

forcefieldyou
View Profile Email
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2005, 04:07:11 pm »

It seems like you would want to run either a Gifts heavy or a Thirst Heavy deck to optimize your efficiency.  Playing the middle ground with half and half seems rather confused.
Logged

Grand Prix Boston 2012 Champion
Follow me on Twitter: @BrianDeMars1
Blitzbold
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 57


131670098
View Profile
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2005, 02:09:29 pm »

Shortly before the Open Dutch Vintage Championships I was convinced by both RVS and Dozer to run a full set of Gifts again as it is the card which makes the deck tick. Since then I also added a third Merchant Scroll back in and reduced the number of Thirsts to one. At the tournament TfK was card I scrolled for later in the game or which I sometimes put into Gifts as a fourth card. When I recognised that opponents refused to give me TfK I started adding it to Gifts piles with regularity and funnily received a more broken card quite often.
Logged

The second mouse gets the cheese.

shoeboxtony
Basic User
**
Posts: 7


View Profile Email
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2005, 04:34:04 pm »

i personally run 3 gifts, 2 merchant scroll, 2x tfk. this particular amount allows me to run 2 md needles and 3 duress. for the most part i rarely get into counter wars trying to resolve a gifts, unless its for the win.
Logged
Smmenen
Guest
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2005, 04:36:33 pm »

It seems like you would want to run either a Gifts heavy or a Thirst Heavy deck to optimize your efficiency.  Playing the middle ground with half and half seems rather confused.

Not necessarily.  That assumes that Thirst and Gifts occupy similar roles in the deck.  They don't. 
Logged
untap/win
Basic User
**
Posts: 10


eotgiftsgg?


View Profile Email
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2005, 03:40:58 pm »

after about 7 monthes of testing and numerous moxes later, I've come to the conclusion that 4 thirst for knowledge/ 2 gifts/ and 0/1 merchant scroll is the way tto go. cutting the merchant scroll for I.Seal i feel is the stronger play and gets you anything you want, not just gifts/recall/tfk.
Logged

new tournament prize structure....

FIRST PRIZE- A trophy proclaiming you the official undisputed Super Vintage Ultra Champion + 3 Beta Black Lotuses!!
Second Prize...NOTHING...you should have brought your A-Game you punk ass bitches.
3rd-8th Place Prizes - 100% of the second place prize

where we'll be fillin' out 2-0's......
Smmenen
Guest
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2005, 03:44:41 pm »

I, personally, hate Thirst for Knowledge.  I think that card is garbarge unless you have Goblin Welder in your deck... but that's me. 
Logged
dicemanx
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1398



View Profile
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2005, 11:55:47 am »


After 6 months of playing Gifts and doing quite well with a number of different configurations, I have come to the conclusion that I don't know what the optimal mix is, nor will I know in any immediate future. I'm also quite sure that none of you know either Smile. At the last event (SCG Rocheter) I opted to run 3 TfK 3 Gifts and 1 Merchant Scroll. It's difficult to evaluate that configuration because it can really depend on the remainder of the deck - for instance, I ran 3 extra artifacts in the form of Pithing Needles in addition to the artifact mana and DSC, and I also opted on 2 Duress in the main, choices which already ate up a significant number of MD slots. I was happy with how that worked out for me.
Logged

Without cultural sanction, most or all our religious beliefs and rituals would fall into the domain of mental disturbance. ~John F. Schumaker
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.081 seconds with 21 queries.