Skittles

[Matt]

Update: I have some HELLA new tech (about 5-6 cards' difference!), plus I am considering Veteran Armorer because so many of my guys have 1 toughness.

[Philatio]

How do artifact lands factor into the card count?  Would you be able to play exactly 60 cards if you played a few artifact lands instead of real artifacts or would they only be half like split color cards?

Also is it worth going down to 60 cards and not be able to run some of the artifacts that are avalible as mana fixers/just plain broken?

I don't think you understand how deck construction works. Your number of artifacts must be exactly equal to the number of cards of each other color you run, but there is no restriction on your lands (other than that you must have at least 60 cards). Almost every deck posted has been exactly 60 cards, with six cards of each color and six artifacts.

I'd be tempted to say that Artifact lands are just lands, and that you need to play equal numbers of coloured spells and artifact _spells_ in your deck.  But I haven't really thought about it much, and I've just drunk a whole load of beer with Phil (actually, I think I had to drink his share too), so I'd be interested in debating that further, since this is now also the rules committee...

I always said they didn't count toward your artifact count since Scott, who invented the format, said so when Mirrodin came out.  And it made sense to me since the format is still highlander - you only get 6 at the most anyhow (it is safe to say they won't print more of them given the problems they have casued).

If you get to count them as your 6 artifacts, well, in my opinion, that definitely undermines one of the core deckbuilding aspects of the format.  That's kinda lame if you don't have to run any artifact spells at all, isn't it?

[Jacob Orlove]

I actually had a section in my post about how the artifact lands didn't count towards your artifact count, because of the zero artifacts thing Rich mentioned, but then I left it out because I was worried it would make the post less clear. Oh well.

Also, there are so many good cards people aren't playing.

[Anusien]

Update: I have some HELLA new tech (about 5-6 cards' difference!), plus I am considering Veteran Armorer because so many of my guys have 1 toughness.

Veteran Armorer seems really good.  Every dork in the format practically is 2/2, so making your guys 2/3s makes them practically unkillable, especially when the fundamental removal is 2 points of burn.

[Nomad]

Update: I have some HELLA new tech (about 5-6 cards' difference!), plus I am considering Veteran Armorer because so many of my guys have 1 toughness.

Veteran Armorer seems really good.  Every dork in the format practically is 2/2, so making your guys 2/3s makes them practically unkillable, especially when the fundamental removal is 2 points of burn.

Given that all the burn I play is Lightning Bolt and Helix, 2/3 really doesn't make the blindest bit of difference.  Anyway, this weekends mini-tournament led me to the conclusion that Sun Droplet totally pulls it's weight, and Ticking Gnomes that I've been unsure of for a long time seem to be really quite effective.

Noah had a new deck which is basically Life Combo.  He runs a Diamond Valley since he wasn't sure about its rarity, but it never appeared anyway.  Problem is that you're really stretched on white slots, with Task Force, Angel and Cleric and the en-cors in white, plus the sacrifice to gain life - buyback thing, and besides an about face in Red and some other stuff to tutor and keep you alive, there's not much else to the deck.

[That0neguy]

Counting artifact lands as lands instead of artifacts would enable someone to work on an affinity deck. While perhaps not the strongest potential idea, it would at least open up some design space.
But, the main reason I see to count artifact lands as land, and not artifacts, is that if artifact lands count as artifacts, it could potentially allow someone to run "zero" artifacts by just using those lands.

Right now, most decks break down as:
24 land
6 of each color
6 artfacts

Now, imagine that someone runs all six artifact lands. That would give us a breakdown of:
6 artifact lands (6)
18 non-artifact lands (18)
7 cards of each color (7*5=35)
1 other artifact (1)
total = (60)

That gives us 60 cards total which, although technically adhering to the rules, really contains one actual artifact.
In other words, allowing artifact lands to count as artifacts really lets someone get around the requirement that the number of artifacts must equal the number of cards of each color.

And, of course, more artifact lands = more atog food, too. Can't forget about that.

This is what I was wondering about.  For some reason I thought I remembered reading that most decks were 62 cards so I was wondering if using the artifact lands could help lower the count, which I now know is wrong.  Plus some of the best cards in the format are artifacts so who would want to cut them anyways.

[Hi-Val]

I'm racking my brain trying to come up with good, solid artifacts for control decks. So far the only thing I'm really digging is Sun Droplet and Bauble/Stone/Talismans. Is there anything better than misc. mana acceleration and stall? Infused/Serrated Arrows just cost too much to play; Etched Oracle in a creature-light deck is a lightning rod and reads WBRG1:Draw three cards. I'm not so hot on that and I'd rather just run Opportunity there. What are you guys playing? Granite Shard looks semi-playable but I'm having a hard time being actually creative here.

[Kowal]

Given the amount of recursion my usual control skeleton runs, I can't fathom not running Etched Oracle.  That might just be me though.

I've also been more than happy with Infused Arrows.

[Jacob Orlove]

I'd really rather people didn't play Phyrexian Furnace, but it seems to be what you're looking for in terms of utility and not being a target.

Alternatively, Bottle Gnomes? Darksteel Brute? Sensei's Divining Top? Spellbombs? Don't forget Signets for mana production--they're better than Talismans, anyway.

[Matt]

Isochron Scepter maybe? Zuran Orb? Thran Dynamo?

[Philatio]

I'm racking my brain trying to come up with good, solid artifacts for control decks. So far the only thing I'm really digging is Sun Droplet and Bauble/Stone/Talismans. Is there anything better than misc. mana acceleration and stall? Infused/Serrated Arrows just cost too much to play; Etched Oracle in a creature-light deck is a lightning rod and reads WBRG1:Draw three cards. I'm not so hot on that and I'd rather just run Opportunity there. What are you guys playing? Granite Shard looks semi-playable but I'm having a hard time being actually creative here.

Caltrops, Leonin Bladetrap, Pyrite Spellbomb, Sensei's Diving Top + Fetches, Wizard Replica,Thunderstaff (ick), Heliophial, Dingus Staff if you play a lot of removal, Icy Manipulator.

These are just random ideas, but man, I really love infused arrows since it either pings dorks, or you just blow your load at once to kill Moroii.

[Nomad]

These are just random ideas, but man, I really love infused arrows since it either pings dorks, or you just blow your load at once to kill Moroii.

White is usually the best way to deal with Black cards...

[Nomad]

Jacob/Kowal - if you're driving down to Richmond, we're about half way (Phil and I) and have plenty of crash space, so if you want to make a stop and actually play some skittles, why not then?

[Kowal]

Alas, I plan on making the entire trip in one go during Friday and Monday middays, respectively, so no crashing will occur.

However, we will be making sure there are at least 4 people reppin' with skittles decks between rounds at Richmond.

[Philatio]

Alas, I plan on making the entire trip in one go during Friday and Monday middays, respectively, so no crashing will occur.

However, we will be making sure there are at least 4 people reppin' with skittles decks between rounds at Richmond.

Iiiiii like Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.  Yes I do.

And I have a huge ninja mutant boner collection.

You miss ooooouuuuuttttttt.

Don't think I will make Richmond, unfortunately.  We should really push Ray again for skittles day 2 at waterbury.  I'm sure simon, I and others could spring for some nice skittles foils or somesuch good prize support if needed.  But hell, there seems enough interest in the format that we could get a lot of peeps.

I would really, really like to hear about how the richmond skittles thing goes; who had what decks, how they did against one another, etc.  Heh, I'd love to play my aggro vs thug's control deck.  Or hell any of my decks against anybody I haven't played before.

[Anusien]

I'll be there only on Saturday, so I'm up for between rounds and post-SCG Skittles action.

Anyone got Goblin Settler or Stream of Acid?  I'm having trouble finding them... at all.

[Jacob Orlove]

Are you already running Befoul? Because that's a more common duplicate of Stream of Acid. Both seem weaker than, say, Despoil, though.

Goblin Settler seems much weaker than Ogre Arsonist, though.

I would probably run Earth Rift in a land destruction deck, along with Frenzied Tilling, Plague Spores, and a lot of good green mana acceleration. Probably Shaleskin Plower and Army Ants too. You should really focus on taking out colors and establishing a huge mana advantage, not on locking them out of the game.

[Hi-Val]

Destructive Urge is SO GOOD in an LD deck too.

[Nomad]

Are you already running Befoul? Because that's a more common duplicate of Stream of Acid. Both seem weaker than, say, Despoil, though.
Goblin Settler seems much weaker than Ogre Arsonist, though.

I would probably run Earth Rift in a land destruction deck, along with Frenzied Tilling, Plague Spores, and a lot of good green mana acceleration. Probably Shaleskin Plower and Army Ants too. You should really focus on taking out colors and establishing a huge mana advantage, not on locking them out of the game.

I've found that the very high mana cost of Plague Spores drastically reduces its effectiveness.  Shaleskin Plower ain't much good either, it takes 2 turns and lots of mana to do anything.  Both Goblin Settler and Ogre Arsonist look better bets to my mind.   I preferred the cycling LD card from Saga over Earth Rift too.  Green acceleration isn't as available as most decks because the good LD spells often stray into Green - can't fault Ice Storm or Creeping Mold...

[Jacob Orlove]

Actually, I can fault Ice Storm and Creeping Mold, because they're just not very good. I played a bunch of games against Kowal's land destruction deck, and one-for-one land kill is just not a consistently good strategy in this format, especially with Guild Lands that let people keep making land drops for the first eight turns of the game. Basically, Ice Storm is a bad card, and on average, decks running Ice Storm will lose to decks running good cards.

If you want to play land destruction, I firmly believe that you need to play strong mana acceleration and cards that are better than just one-for-one land kill. Focus on denying 2-3 colors, rather than simply trying to keep them below some mana threshold. Ideally, you should get to the point where you're entwining Reap and Sow and flashing back Earth Rift while they're forced to cast unkicked battlemages to block your creatures. Throw in some strong win conditions or solid discard, so that they're in a position where they need to draw lands to have a chance, but where they can't win if they're not drawing spells.

[Anusien]

The way Rich Shay and I built LD wasn't as a 1 for 1 - take out all your lands.  It's more about a tempo game.  Because no one starts really making drops until turn 4-5, you have until then to start hitting lands, and with so many bouncelands and such a fragile manabase everyone runs, it's really easy to cut people off lands or colors.

The first place you take a few Time Walks is on turn 3.  You both go land, bounceland, and then you either remove or bounce their bounceland, and you get like two free turns.  Also, it's really easy to get out an LDer or two and just start getting in for damage.  The problem is there are a couple of guys that only hit for 1, but like the Benalish Emissary is necessary.

I want a way to fit in Orcish Settlers, but they seem too fragile.

Sometimes you win because you run them out of lands (although I'd like to fit in a few more good beaters), but most of the time you win by getting like 18 time walks, although there is a serious lack of beaters.

[Nomad]

Actually, I can fault Ice Storm and Creeping Mold, because they're

I'll listen to your point on Ice Storm, but Creeping Mold's utility leaves it as a card still worth considering, IMO.  The double green is what hurts it...

[Jacob Orlove]

Yeah, Mold is flexible enough to be decent, I'll admit. The problem is that the bar is just SO high for green cards in this format.

[bomholmm]

OK so I've been playing some skittles, I threw together my own version of clamp combo and have discovered a few gems.  Reaping the Graves is amazing it gets back all your dudes after you clamp them.  Stormscape familiar is also awesome, it reduces costs and is clamp fodder.  pentad prism is amazing it fixes your mana and can excelerrate you really well early.  I've also found that all the comes into play tapped lands really suck, I think I'm going to trade them out for artifact lands so that I can grab land with trinket mage and fabricate.  Also been thinking of playing Noble Benefactor, you need another sack outlet(ashnods altar, culling the weak) to clamp him but when you do he is awsome.  I've also been considering Skirge Familiar Once you start clamping you end up with a lot of dead weight in your hand because of the 5 color nature of skittles, I'm thinking this guy could ditch those cards to help fuel more clamping, only thing is his cost is a little prohibitive

[Anusien]

I tried it, but I was finding it's not consistent enough and if Clamp gets eaten, you lose.  Some things I did find:
Bouncelands were pretty techy with Cloud of Faeries and Snap
Pentad Prism seems good since the limiting factor I was finding was getting non-red, non-blue mana
You need some draw spells to refill your hand pre-going off

[bomholmm]

I have won plenty of games where my clamp was destroyed, you have 4-5 ways of getting it back and as long as you hold it in hand until you are ready to go off you are fine.  I am really thinking about cutting brain freeze the thing is never lethal so it essentially does nothing, plus with tendrils and hunting pack in the deck you don't need the third win.

[Anusien]

Is anyone bringing a sideboard for Skittles, or maindecks only?

[Kowal]

I think sideboards are for vaginas.

[Anusien]

Wait, do you like vaginas or not?

-Anusien, *confused*

[Jacob Orlove]

I will have a sideboard, but I won't be using it for games during the tournament--after everything is over, I could play some full matches.