I want your opinion on this penalty from SCG Chicago!!

[Dante]

This is round 1 of the latest SCG Chicago.

I'm playing Dragon and my opponent is playing Uba Stax.  We're on Game 3 with very little time left.

I drop Bazaar, Mox.  I use bazaar and drop Dragon, Squee, and something into my graveyard.  I have an animate and a land, so unless he drops Uba or Null Rod I can win next turn.  He drops like Uba + Cruicble (or some other lock part that hurts, but not Null Rod). 

During my next turn, I return Squee, lay my land, cast Animate and draw the game (no other creatures in the graveyards).  My opponent calls a judge over just to make sure that I can choose not to use Bazaar and drop Squee in the yard.  He tells me this is a "crappy" play on my part, and I ask him why I should hand him the chance to win the game (yes, I could have draw an Intuition and potentially won, but chances were better with game 4).  He didn't have a good response.

So we get a few extra minutes added on, but those get spent shuffling up and mulliganing (I mull'd to 5 or 6) and time is called during my first turn (I'm on the play).  This is a bad spot for him because I can win in 1 turn, but he can't win at all (his biggest creature is power 1 or 2).  I can play to win, but he gets another turn 1 Uba Mask.  In the 4th extra turn (my last turn), I only have a hand of 2 cards, both are permanents (I thought it was land and a mana crypt, but see below).  I forget to reveal the card to Uba mask and instead (apparently) put it into my hand.  I thought I put it into play directly, but my opponent and a spectator said I put it into my hand, so I probably did.  My opponent calls a judge, obviously fishing for a game loss.

My hand at this point is 2 lands and a Mana Crypt.  I'm 75% sure that I drew the land I put into play, but a spectator behind me says no (that I drew the mana crypt).  The judge correctly tells the spectator he can't really take his account of things into play.  Basically since no one can determine what card it is that should have been revealed, the judge gives me a game loss for "creating an irreparable game state", even though I will never get another turn and cannot win or affect the board or the game in any way.  I appeal to the head judge (though I'm not really holding out hope), who upholds the original ruling.

Now I'm pretty pissed at this point - at myself for screwing up, but also at my opponent for rules lawyering a win, in my opinion.  I can see if there were cards that made a difference, but I had played a land and said "go" on my last of the extra turns.  I told him I thought that was a BS move on his part and his response was something along the lines of "yah, well drawing game 3 was crap on your part...and it was your own fault".  So he was half right. 

I think for a little bit and tell him he's right, that I put myself in a bad spot, I apologize for being a jerk about it (even though I don't mean it and really want to stab him in the throat with my pen and scream "how's about an irreparable game state now pal!", and wish him luck.  About 10 minutes later, he's outside smoking and I tell him again no hard feelings....but frankly, I'm still sort of upset about it.  I realize it's my own fault, but there was nothing I did to disadvantage him in any way (I passed the turn doing nothing!) and it didn't affect the outcome in any way.

I'm curious to what you all think about this (I'd rather get the full-user and adept opinion without everyone feeling the need to chime in, which is why I didn't post this in the Rules forum.  there are a couple judges that I'll PM to separately).

Bill

PS If you're any sort of judge, please say so and what level.

PPS - I realize that it was my bad for forgetting and allowing myself to be put in a bad situation.  Please don't post "next time don't do it and don't leave it to the judges".  I just want people's opinions of the penalty and situation.

[Jebus]

The judge isn't "wrong", but I could have come up with an alternate solution that would result in a warning for procedural error.

Given the circumstances, a game loss might have been harsh, but it is within reason to asses one.

[Machinus]

I'm not sure what the proper penalty should have been for game 4, but I am certain that there is nothing wrong with drawing game 3. The judge was wrong to assert that it was a "crappy" plan on your part, since it is completely legal and a good strategy for the dragon player there.

I think a game loss is too harsh, especially since the outcome of game 3 likely had an effect on the judges ruling in game 4.

[Dante]

I'm not sure what the proper penalty should have been for game 4, but I am certain that there is nothing wrong with drawing game 3. The judge was wrong to assert that it was a "crappy" plan on your part, since it is completely legal and a good strategy for the dragon player there.

I think a game loss is too harsh, especially since the outcome of game 3 likely had an effect on the judges ruling in game 4.

FYI - the judge didn't call it "crappy", the opponent did.  Guess I was a little liberal using "he".

[iamfishman]

I'm not going to comment on what I think the Judge should have done.

What I will comment on is your reaction to a Judge being called.

At any time, if a situation arises where something in a match has gone awry from what is within the rules of the game a judge should always be called, no matter what, whether you think you were on the right or wrong side of the matter.

When in doubt, I will always call a judge. Not sure if a shock can deal 2 damage to a creature? Call a judge.  Not sure if you can paris more than once? Call a judge.  Not sure if you think your opponent is doing something shady? Call a judge.  Think your opponent made an honest mistake? Call a judge.

The last case seems to apply here.  Was your opponent making a big deal of it because he was mad about the previous game? Certainly.  BUT, was he correct in calling a judge to handle the situation, even if he was totally chill and saw it as an honest mistake. Again, yes.

Calling a judge is how errors, accidental or not, are dealt with.  Granted he was mad, but I don't think you could blame him, cause he should have called a judge even if he wasn't mad.

[jpmeyer]

I'm not a judge, but the new intent-friendly way of ruling makes a game loss seem overly harsh.  If I were the judge, I would assume that it wasn't your intent to cheat by sandbagging that card for another turn because of the fact that there wouldn't be any more turns for you to save that card for.

So yeah, warning for a procedural error.

[Dante]

I'm not going to comment on what I think the Judge should have done.

What I will comment on is your reaction to a Judge being called.

At any time, if a situation arises where something in a match has gone awry from what is within the rules of the game a judge should always be called, no matter what, whether you think you were on the right or wrong side of the matter.

When in doubt, I will always call a judge. Not sure if a shock can deal 2 damage to a creature? Call a judge.  Not sure if you can paris more than once? Call a judge.  Not sure if you think your opponent is doing something shady? Call a judge.  Think your opponent made an honest mistake? Call a judge.

The last case seems to apply here.  Was your opponent making a big deal of it because he was mad about the previous game? Certainly.  BUT, was he correct in calling a judge to handle the situation, even if he was totally chill and saw it as an honest mistake. Again, yes.

Calling a judge is how errors, accidental or not, are dealt with.  Granted he was mad, but I don't think you could blame him, cause he should have called a judge even if he wasn't mad.

I agree, calling a judge over was correct.

However, my opponent lobbied HARD for me to get a game loss, knowing it was the only way he could win. 

If there was ANY hint of anything fishy on my part, I can see the game loss, but with the "intent" being ruled on in the past (see Shockwave's top4 match at gencon a few years ago, plus others), I thought it was unwarrented.  But then I let myself get into that situation.  The reason I was upset is not because he called the judge over and explained the situation and let the judge draw his conclusion, but once the situation was explained my opponent immediately went into "we don't know what card it was, can't replicate the game state, should be a game loss, blah, blah", there was OBVIOUSLY no intent to cheat since I had given up my last chance to win or do anything.  The game state was me laying a land and passing the turn with garbage in my hand.  Whatever, if that's the way you need to win, then he obviously needed it more than I did.

The judge was reasonable and when he gave the ruling I said, "ok, i'd like to appeal to the head judge."  And when he upheld the ruling, I wrote down "2" under his win column and signed the match slip.

Ray - I would like your opinion on what YOU would have done.  If you want to PM it to me, that's cool.

[rvs]

I'm not a judge, but the new intent-friendly way of ruling makes a game loss seem overly harsh.  If I were the judge, I would assume that it wasn't your intent to cheat by sandbagging that card for another turn because of the fact that there wouldn't be any more turns for you to save that card for.

So yeah, warning for a procedural error.

second that.

[Godder]

I agree that with the new intent-based judging philosophy, a game loss was harsh. However, there are a couple of points to consider... At a non-sanctioned event, warnings are close to meaningless since they aren't tracked beyond that event, so a game loss is really the only way to punish something like that, if that's the feeling of the judge. The other is that pressing judges to issue harsher penalties is unsporting conduct, last time I checked, so one could argue that the opponent deserved equally harsh treatment if he was indeed trying to influence the judge (not being there, I can't really say either way, but those who were there would know how hard the player was pressing, if at all).

[SliverKing]

For what its worth, Level 2 judge, and I happen to HJ most of Starcity's Richmond events.

First of all you did the right thing by signing the slip and letting it go. The judge is the final arbiter, even when you disagree with the ruling. In this case the judge's ruling was within reason, although not the direction I would have chosen to go.

You screwed up the Uba Mask effect... screwing up an effect, procedural error...  Warning.  You could make an arguement that its drawing extra cards, but its not really an extra card, its the draw for the turn, you just failed to modify it with Uba Mask. I think the judge in your case was more focused on the results, and the difficulty in resolving the situation. This is definetly a judgment call for him to make, however whats 'irrepairable' to one judge is 'inconvenient' to another, and someone else may have ruled differently.

If the other player was lobbying hard for a game loss like you said, I'd issue him a warning on unsporting conduct as well. 

But I'm a hardass that way.

[Klep]

I'd probably have done the same as Josh.

[Dante]

That seems to be the most consistent answer, even from judges whom I've PM'd too....

I guarantee I won't miss an Uba Mask removal from here on out...

it just sucked because it was round 1 and I really felt like my build (5c Dragon) had strong games vs non-Uba Stax, Gifts, and CS, along with 50/50 chances vs other combo and Oath (yes, even Oath with Ground Seal and Crypt).  I had Pithing needles played on me in like 6 games and only once (vs blue-black Fish of all things) did it cause me to lose (and to be honest, he had a turn 1 Lotus, land, null rod, Withered wretch, so it was going to be tough anyway).  Gifts is pretty much a bye for me unless I draw extremely bad and have to mulligan down low (I went 3-0 vs Gifts in three not very close matches).

[iamfishman]

Ray - I would like your opinion on what YOU would have done.  If you want to PM it to me, that's cool.

Well...I guess I will chime in on what I would have done.

I agree with SliverKing.  It was your draw step, and you didn't draw an EXTRA CARD, you didn't follow the rules of Uba Mask.  This is a procedural error and should have been dealt with as such with a recorded Warning.  Keep in mind, however, that a second occurance of this same infraction would certainly get you a game loss.

[CF]

They're not called Penalty _guidelines_ for nothing. Game loss for irrepairable game state is not only too harsh, but imo completely off mark considering the circumstances. Procedural error, warning isn't.

--
Chris (DCI level 2 judge)