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Author Topic: Breaking & Entering (Team Southpaw's SCG:Chicago Report)  (Read 4640 times)
Shean
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« on: November 01, 2005, 02:46:07 pm »

Team Southpaw started testing for SCG: Chicago at least 6 weeks in advance.  We built Brassman Gifts Belcher, Oath (with Black for Duress, Demonic Tutor, Yawgmoth’s Will, etc.), Control Slaver, Roland Chang’s 5-color Stax, Vroman’s Mono-Red UbaStax, 5-color Worldgorger Dragon, JDizzle's 2-Land Belcher & our own Southpaw UB Fish. 

The first version of Southpaw UB Fish was invented by my teammate & roommate, Evan Riley, and was tweaked and tested by Evan & myself.  Here are the 75 cards that our members of Team Southpaw sleeved up for SCG: Chicago:

Southpaw UB Fish
By: Evan Riley

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Island
1 Swamp

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Standstill
3 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Duress
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Rushing River
1 Stifle

4 Withered Wretch
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mesmeric Fiend

3 Null Rod

Sideboard:

4 Energy Flux
2 Annul
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Stifle
2 Darkblast
3 Old Man of the Sea

After many matches of testing, our UB Fish deck had the following match win percentages:

Vs. Control Slaver: 9-1 (90%)
Vs. Brassman Gifts: 9-1 (90%)
Vs. Oath of Druids: 7-3 (70%)
Vs. Vroman UbaStax: 5-5 (50%)
Vs. Chang 5C Stax: 6-4 (60%)
Vs. 5-color Dragon: 8-2 (80%)
Vs. 2-Land Belcher: 7-3 (70%)

These win percentages are retarded. They cannot be representative. Either you're lying, you've been playing very few games, or your opponent is really, really bad. In order to prevent exactly such discussion, we have a policy against posting win percentages. Please refrain from this in the future.  - Bram

After all of the testing, Southpaw UB Fish showed high win percentages against the Blue-based control decks and decent win percentages against Mishra’s Workshop based decks.  The deck uses Withered Wretch to deny any graveyard use and Null Rod alone beats 2-Land Belcher and Withered Wretch beats 5-color Dragon.  Dark Confidant is the heart and soul of this deck.  He’s a 2/1 beater with Phyrexian Arena stapled to his head.  Since the deck only runs 5 cards that have a converted casting cost of 3 or higher, the life-loss drawback is a non-issue.  If Dark Confidant ends up killing you while playing this deck, you weren’t going to win that game anyways.

My only concern with the deck was the relatively low win percentage against Mishra’s Workshop based decks.  Chicago is known as a Mishra’s Workshop convention.  After Oath showing up in large numbers, perhaps Chicago will now be known as Oath’s Forbidden Orchard.  Anyways, I didn’t feel that the deck had a solid enough match up against Mishra’s Workshop decks to play in what I expected to be a 30% Stax metagame (I think we all misjudged the metagame).  Two members of Team Southpaw ran Southpaw UB Fish, Evan Riley & David Spiehler.

I, on the other hand, had no idea what to play.  I didn’t want to play Gifts, CS, or UB Fish.  I decided at 2:00 p.m. on Friday that I wanted to play Vroman’s UbaStax because of its high win percentages against Gifts & 5-color Stax.  I called Vroman on Friday at about 4:00 p.m. and he gave me the list that he expected to run.  I was impressed with Vroman’s willingness to give his list to a non-teammate the day before a SCG event.  I salute you Mr. Vroman.

Uba Stax
By: Robert Vroman

4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Barbarian Ring
3 Mountain
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Uba Mask
4 Smokestacks
3 Null Rod
1 Trinisphere

1 Wheel of Fortune

4 Goblin Welder
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Duplicant
1 Solemn Simulacrum

Sideboard:
2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Duplicant
2 Maze of Ith
2 Pyroclasm (Vroman ran Stoneshaker Shaman)
3 Viashino Heretic
4 Pyroblast

Team Southpaw boarded our privately owned jet (better known as my '96 Accord) and headed for Chicago around 7:00 p.m. (Indiana time).  Somehow, the first 3 1/2 hours of the trip go by rather quickly and the last hour seems as long as the first 3 1/2 hours.  We roll into Chicago at about 10:15 p.m. (Indiana time) and immediately proceed to get stuck in construction traffic.  We get lost on the way to our friend's house but manage to get back on track through the use of some expert sextant techniques (Also aided via a cell phone call to our friend).  We drink some beer and play test.  I always manage to sleep less than 4 hours before a Magic tourney and this was to be no exception.  I fall asleep around 3:30 a.m. (Further times are Chicago time) and wake up without an alarm at 7:00 a.m.  It's amazing how I can get 8 hours of sleep the night before work and sleep through my alarm.  When I'm getting up for a Magic tourney, I don't even need an alarm.

We get up, head to Pastimes and hit the Jewel-Osco on the way.  As an important side note, I bought a 1/2-Gallon of Orange Juice at the Osco, which turned out to be savage tech.  I highly recommend getting your Vitamin C before any major event.

We get to Pastimes at about 8:30 a.m. to grab the extra cards I need for UbaStax.  UbaStax is considered to be 14 proxies (5 Moxen, 1 Lotus, 4 Workshop, 4 Bazaar).  Fortunately, I was able to get 2 pieces of power from my teammates since they were playing UB Fish and I own a Mox Sapphire.  This put me at 13 proxies, 1 short of the needed amount.  I tried to trade for Moxen but surprisingly, nobody wanted Mana Drains.  I got lucky and ran into JDizzle, who had won a Workshop the weekend before at Vroman’s tournament.  JD, who I had only met the Saturday before at Indiana Champs, agreed to hold on to 4 of my Mana Drains in exchange for letting me use the Workshop in the tournament.  I was finally ready to go.

Round 1: Worldgorger Dragon

Game 1:
I have a good hand that involves a turn 1 Uba Mask + Bazaar.  He takes about 7 minutes to Lim-Dul’s Vault.  He’s quite possibly the slowest WGD player ever.  I’m holding him on 2 mana (Orchard + COB) with Null Rod when I draw a Wheel of Fortune.  He’s tapped out, has WGD and Sliver Queen in the GY.  I know that if I let him untap with his grip of 6 cards, I’m dead.  I weld out Null Rod for a Sol Ring to play the Wheel.  I draw a bunch of good cards, play a Smokestax, Workshop & Crucible.  He untaps, top-decks an Animate Dead and makes infinite 1/1’s to beat my ass. Sad

SB:
-1 Jens, -1 Chalice of the Void
+2 Tormod’s Crypt

Game 2:
I have another good hand and drop Uba Mask on turn 1 or 2.  I start drawing crazy with Bazaar and lock him out without much trouble after 15-20 minutes of him taking time to think about nothing.

Game 3:
He opens with: Mox, Bazaar, Draw 2, Discard WGD & something.  I go turn 1 Uba Mask.  He frowns, untaps and animates WGD.  He then proceeds to draw out the game since he can’t win under Uba Mask.  He will never have any other creature in the GY to animate so he can’t stop the combo to hardcast his win-condition.  We call the judge over, the judge confirms that this game is a draw and gives us 3 minutes of extra time.

Game 4:
Our time extention ends as he is stalling while taking a mulligan.  He opens with some cards and I play Uba Mask on turn 2.  As he had done many times earlier in the match, he draws directly to his hand while Uba Mask is in play.  At this point, I’ve had enough.  I call a judge and he gets a game-loss for creating an irreversible game state.

I hated doing this, but he was obviously stalling games 2-4, drew game 3 so he wouldn’t lose and was an asshole to boot.  After the match he told me I was cheesy for calling the judge.  C’est la vie.

Round 2: 5-Color Stax (Finished 2nd place)

Game 1:
I have a good hand of Workshop, Barb Ring, Crucible, Wasteland, Stax, etc.  He has a better hand of turn 1 Welder & Vamp Tutor.  Turn 2 Triskelion.  I try my hardest to ramp Smoky to make him sac the Trike, but I end up a turn too late.

SB:
-2 Uba Mask, -1 Duplicant
+3 Viashino Heretic

Game 2:
I have another good hand.  He has another better hand.  All I have to say is that he played these cards: Turn 1 – Viashino Heretic.  Turn 2 – Sacred Ground.  Turn 3 – Smokestacks.  Turn 4 – Triskelion.  I lose to those cards.

Round 3: Chalice Oath

Game 1:
He gets a bunch of bad cards with mana screw and I beat him after mulling to 5.

SB:
-2 Welder, -3 Null Rod, -1 Jens
+2 Maze of Ith, +2 Duplicant, +2 Pyroblast

Game 2:
I keep a decent hand with Duplicant, mana to cast him on turn 2, and Maze of Ith.  I top-deck like 6 mana sources in a row and Akroma kills me.

Game 3:
I open with a god draw of turn 1 smokey and wasteland.  He promptly runs out of permanents and starts discarding. I kill him soon enough.

Round 4: Gifts

Game 1:
I start with turn 1 Uba Mask and lock him out before he can really get anything going.

SB:
-1 Jens, -1 Uba Mask, -2 Crucible, -2 Chalice of the Void
+2 Tormod’s Crypt, +4 Pyroblast

Game 2:
One of my best opening hands of the day: Workshop, Black Lotus, Welder, Welder, Mox Monkey, Uba Mask, Bazaar.  I play Workshop, Lotus, Crack Lotus for RRR, Welder to see if he has FOW – he doesn’t, Uba Mask.  I’m now left with a tough play-call.  I have R in my pool with Mox Monkey & Welder in hand.  If I play the second Welder, I can lock out his draws with Uba Mask.  On the other hand, Mox Monkey ensures that he doesn’t get to use any artifact mana.  I decide to play Mox Monkey and pass the turn.  He Burning Wishes for Pyroclasm and I feel like a pro.  After he Pyroclasms away my Welder and Mox Monkey, I play the second Welder from my hand and win shortly after.

Round 5: Oath

We sit down and start shuffling.  Before we get to offer our decks for the cut, a judge comes over to inform us that we are randomly being deck-checked.  After the judge confirms my list, he suggests that I re-sleeve my deck.  I re-sleeve it in new sleeves and go back to the table.

Game 1:
He does exactly what I don’t want him to do.  Turn 1 – Orchard, Mox, Oath.  As an insult to injury, he casts Ancestral Recall after oathing up Razia.

SB:
Doesn’t matter

Game 2:
I play Turn 1 Welder with Null Rod, Smokestacks, Uba Mask in hand.  Perhaps it was a risky play, but I wanted to lock him out of drawing an Oath if he didn’t have it in hand.  He did – Turn 1 Land, Mox, Time Walk.  Time Walk Turn – Oath, Ancestral Recall.

At this point I’m a bit pissed that I didn’t really get to play anything during the two matches I lost, but whatever.

Round 6: Metalworker Combo

Game 1:
He mulls to 5 and plays Vault of Whispers and passes the turn.  I play some good cards and waste his Vault.  He misses his next land drop and I get Crucible + Wasteland online.  I win without him really doing anything.

SB:
I thought he was playing Affinity since I saw him discard a Frogmite
-2 Duplicant, -2 Uba Mask,
+2 Maze of Ith, +2 Pyroblast

Game 2:
I draw the best opening hand I’ve seen all day: Barb Ring, Mana Crypt, Mox, Mox, Welder, Stax, Something.  He plays Turn 1 Mishra’s Workshop, Metalworker.  I drop my hand except for 1 card plus the card I drew for the turn.  He untaps, activates Metalworker, drops Staff of Domination and kills me.

SB:
-2 Maze of Ith, -1 Jens
+2 Uba Mask, +1 Pyroblast

Game 3:
I look at a hand: Workshop, Workshop, Chalice, Chalice, Crucible, Stax, Something.  I think about holding both of my chalices to set them both at 3 but decide to drop a chalice for 0 to cut off any artifact mana.  He plays Workshop, Metalworker.  I try to drop Chalice for 3 but it gets FOWed.  He untaps, activates Metalworker, drops Staff and kills me again.

All in all, I was happy and upset about how I lost my matches.  I may have made a play mistake Game 1 against 5-color Stax, but I’m not sure.  I don’t feel that I made more than 2 play mistakes, but that’s why they call it Type 1.

We stayed to watch T8 and then left.  Congrats to Evan Riley for piloting Southpaw UB Fish to 11th place, but next time don't let someone take back a play mistake (it cost him a draw in round 3 instead of a win).  Congrats to Vroman for winning yet another Black Lotus.  How many do you need you greedy bastard?  Smile

After we left Pastimes, the real fun began.  Firstly, the trip took 30 minutes max to get to Pastimes.  It took us 1 to 1 ½ hours to find our way back.  Secondly, when we got back, our friend had locked the door and was at some bar.  We looked around for a way to get in.

Our friend lives on the third floor, and there was a window in the hallway somewhat near a window in his apartment.  Evan wanted to imitate Spiderman and got out on the window ledge.  The whole time he’s on this third floor window ledge, I’m yelling at him, “This is a bad idea.  If you fall, I’m not taking you to the hospital.  I’ll get lost.�  Fortunately, he couldn’t reach the other window and we looked for another way in.

I saw that the door was rather old and went to work trying to take the handle out of the door with a makeshift screwdriver made from a metal piece of a pen cap.  I got the outside handle off the door but it wouldn’t push through to give me a hole to reach through.  I decided that it would be a good idea to bend the metal plate that was around the door handle and deadbolt.  I really jacked the door up.

Then we decide to try to take the window above the door out.  At this point, Evan is asleep on the stairs.  I wake him up, give him some car keys and tell him to get on my shoulders.  So here I am, in the middle of some apartment building in Chicago, with Evan on my shoulders scraping the grout off a window with some car keys so that we can break in.  I’m glad our friend’s neighbors weren’t home.

After chipping away almost all of the grout, most of which ended up in my hair and all over the floor in front of the door, Evan says, “Shean, you’re an idiot.�  The damn window was on hinges and pushed in.

We get inside, order two pizzas for the reasonable price of $35 and play some Magic.  The next day we wake up, play some chess, darts & Magic, and go home.

Props:
Vroman for giving me his list and letting me see his registration sheet before he turned it in.
JDizzle for letting me use his Workshop.
Evan Riley for taking his rogue deck to a major event and doing well.

Slops:
Chicago for looking the same everywhere, its retarded street signs & overpriced pizza
The people of Chicago for their lack of driving skills
The dude who I played against in round 1 for stalling
Pastimes for kicking Kevin Cron out (We signed your shirt Kevin!)

-Mike Shean
« Last Edit: November 07, 2005, 01:44:59 pm by Bram » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2005, 02:58:59 pm »

Hmmm I'm wondering who was the savageness that Beat you down with Razia and Akroma.

Was it Dan, Ben, or I@n?  Cuz I think that ICBM (unless I am mistaken) is the only crew that runs Razia, and I for sure did not play you.
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« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2005, 03:23:16 pm »

I guess it must have been Ian.  I beat Dan Carp in round 3.  I was the guy sitting next to you during the player's meeting.
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« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2005, 03:25:12 pm »

good report

I dont have any problem giving away my lists bc:
A everyone knows I play this deck exclusively
B the deck has only changed rather subtly lately, so Ive got no tech to hide
C I love stax mirrors. its my favorite match up in all of magic. thus I prefer more ppl playing stax
D I dont really fear people who pick up ubastax 24 hrs before I might have to play them, esp in a field of 100+.
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« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2005, 03:55:44 pm »

I like my philosophy on this one:

Uba stax BAD but vroman SO GOOD
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« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2005, 07:14:47 pm »

Quote
Game 3:
He opens with: Mox, Bazaar, Draw 2, Discard WGD & something.  I go turn 1 Uba Mask.  He frowns, untaps and animates WGD.  He then proceeds to draw out the game since he can’t win under Uba Mask.  He will never have any other creature in the GY to animate so he can’t stop the combo to hardcast his win-condition.  We call the judge over, the judge confirms that this game is a draw and gives us 3 minutes of extra time.

Game 4:
Our time extention ends as he is stalling while taking a mulligan.  He opens with some cards and I play Uba Mask on turn 2.  As he had done many times earlier in the match, he draws directly to his hand while Uba Mask is in play.  At this point, I’ve had enough.  I call a judge and he gets a game-loss for creating an irreversible game state.

I hated doing this, but he was obviously stalling games 2-4, drew game 3 so he wouldn’t lose and was an asshole to boot.  After the match he told me I was cheesy for calling the judge.  C’est la vie.

I don't see how drawing a game with dragon=being an asshole.  That is a perfectly legal move and happens all the time with the deck.  Also, from what I saw, you were actively trying for him to get the game loss.  Consider yourself lucky for not getting a game loss for unsportsmanlike conduct.

He wasn't actively stalling either.  Some people play slow.  Playing slow=/=stalling.  Some people play slowly, that's not illegal.
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« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2005, 08:21:42 pm »

I was the dude in round 1.  Let me clarify a few things.  I played slowly because you had a turn 1-2 Uba mask every single one of our games.  Once that hits, it forces me to find a way to get my kill conditions in hand without "drawing" them, since I can't discard them.  Which means I need to figure out my whole game plan (strategy and tactics) for winning that game all once, once that Uba Mask is on the stack.  In a hand full of tutors and intuitions, there are a lot of choices.  In no situation did I take more than 2-3 minutes for ANY decision.

I decided to draw game 3 because it would have been extremely difficult to win, but possible - unlike game 1 where you had a welder to remove all cards with Uba, I can tutor/"draw" intuition to get a creature in the graveyard and then get an animate.  All it means is that I cannot discard cards with Bazaar.  Drawing game 3 to give myself a chance to win game 4 isn't stalling or cheating - it's good strategy.

About my mulligans for game 4 - my opening had had a dragon, 2 oxidize, and some mana.  My 6 card hand was equally bad.  In both cases, I VERY quickly pile shuffled - it was less than 60 seconds each time. 

As for game 4 - there was probably 1 time in the match previous to this game where I drew the card instead of revealing it to UBA Stax and in that case I realized it before it hit my hand. 

Let's get all the details of this out there - we go into extra turns.  In the 4th extra turn (my last turn of the game), I draw the card into hand.  You say nothing at that point. My hand at that point is Mana crypt and 2 lands.   I play a land and say "go" (passing the turn).  Only then do you complain and call a judge.  Since I won't get a turn (and the other two cards in my hard are Mana Crypt and a land), there is NOTHING I can do win the game - I was passing you the turn.  When the judge comes over and we explain the situation, you immediately bring up "irreparable game state....game loss" because you know you can't win next turn.

Every single other judge I've talked to, on this board and otherwise, have said that in this situation, that the penalty should have been a warning for procedural error - every single one and I'm talking about at least 12 people.  In addition, calling a judge fishing for a game loss, by your own words

Quote
I hated doing this, but he was obviously stalling games 2-4, drew game 3 so he wouldn’t lose and was an asshole to boot

is unsportsmanlike conduct.  At least 6 of the 12 judges said they would have given you the loss for fishing for a game win on this technicality.   This having been the first confrontation of any kind with an opponent or judge, I wasn't sure really how to state my case to the head judge.  Had I been in more situations like this (which you obviously have), I would have stated my case more passionately.

Let's be clear - my play had no intent to cheat or attempt to gain any unfair advantage.  I played land and said "go".  You turned that into getting a win on a technicality, something that should have been a procedural error warning.  I apologize if my deck had lots of critical paths and decisions, especially given your early Uba Mask every game.  Props to you for putting me in a situation with many difficult choices.

I did say after that match that I thought it was cheesy.  Calling the judge wasn't cheesy - there was a rule broken and they should be called in those situations.  Fishing for a game loss was cheesy.  I stand by that.  Saying it out loud I regret, I shouldn't have said anything.  That is why I apologized and shook your hand - not because I did anything wrong or actually thought you were a good sport, but because I regretting saying something to you about it.

Every person who was watching that match and has commented on it to me has said that I was the slighted one here, not you.  I wasn't intending on responding, but just reading your biased account (not that mine isn't, but yours is devoid of most of the game facts) has made me angry.  Anyone here who knows me knows that I'm not an asshole, nor do I stall.  If it looked that way to you, I'm sorry.  You are entitled to your own (wrong) opinion.

If that's how you need to win matches, then you obviously need the win more than I do.  Enjoy.

Bill
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« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2005, 08:36:49 pm »

sorry for the double post, but on a different topic, congrats to Evan for doing well with his new UB deck.  It was a nice surprise...

Bill
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« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2005, 11:57:43 am »

I saw it too... you definitely weren't being an asshole.

If I were the judge, I would have offered your opponent the choice of which card gets removed for Uba Mask, thereby removing any POSSIBLE advantage you could have gained. It was clear that there was no way the game state was affected because there was no difference which one was drawn.

But... I'm not a judge.
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« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2005, 01:29:56 pm »

I saw it too... you definitely weren't being an asshole.

If I were the judge, I would have offered your opponent the choice of which card gets removed for Uba Mask, thereby removing any POSSIBLE advantage you could have gained. It was clear that there was no way the game state was affected because there was no difference which one was drawn.

But... I'm not a judge.

Thanks.  I wanted to respond directly, but I think let's have everyone not involved (i.e. everyone that's not me or Mike) stick to the rest of his tournament report and let that incident die down (unless Mike wants to dicuss it more, but I've said what I wanted to say).
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« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2005, 06:18:01 pm »

It wasn't me with the Oath deck; I didn't get a single hand like that the entire tournament.  I loved the report, though, especially the ending.
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« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2005, 08:05:34 pm »

I was the dude in round 1.  Let me clarify a few things.  I played slowly because you had a turn 1-2 Uba mask every single one of our games.  Once that hits, it forces me to find a way to get my kill conditions in hand without "drawing" them, since I can't discard them.  Which means I need to figure out my whole game plan (strategy and tactics) for winning that game all once, once that Uba Mask is on the stack.  In a hand full of tutors and intuitions, there are a lot of choices.  In no situation did I take more than 2-3 minutes for ANY decision.

I decided to draw game 3 because it would have been extremely difficult to win, but possible - unlike game 1 where you had a welder to remove all cards with Uba, I can tutor/"draw" intuition to get a creature in the graveyard and then get an animate.  All it means is that I cannot discard cards with Bazaar.  Drawing game 3 to give myself a chance to win game 4 isn't stalling or cheating - it's good strategy.

About my mulligans for game 4 - my opening had had a dragon, 2 oxidize, and some mana.  My 6 card hand was equally bad.  In both cases, I VERY quickly pile shuffled - it was less than 60 seconds each time. 

As for game 4 - there was probably 1 time in the match previous to this game where I drew the card instead of revealing it to UBA Stax and in that case I realized it before it hit my hand. 

Let's get all the details of this out there - we go into extra turns.  In the 4th extra turn (my last turn of the game), I draw the card into hand.  You say nothing at that point. My hand at that point is Mana crypt and 2 lands.   I play a land and say "go" (passing the turn).  Only then do you complain and call a judge.  Since I won't get a turn (and the other two cards in my hard are Mana Crypt and a land), there is NOTHING I can do win the game - I was passing you the turn.  When the judge comes over and we explain the situation, you immediately bring up "irreparable game state....game loss" because you know you can't win next turn.

Every single other judge I've talked to, on this board and otherwise, have said that in this situation, that the penalty should have been a warning for procedural error - every single one and I'm talking about at least 12 people.  In addition, calling a judge fishing for a game loss, by your own words

Quote
I hated doing this, but he was obviously stalling games 2-4, drew game 3 so he wouldn’t lose and was an asshole to boot

is unsportsmanlike conduct.  At least 6 of the 12 judges said they would have given you the loss for fishing for a game win on this technicality.   This having been the first confrontation of any kind with an opponent or judge, I wasn't sure really how to state my case to the head judge.  Had I been in more situations like this (which you obviously have), I would have stated my case more passionately.

Let's be clear - my play had no intent to cheat or attempt to gain any unfair advantage.  I played land and said "go".  You turned that into getting a win on a technicality, something that should have been a procedural error warning.  I apologize if my deck had lots of critical paths and decisions, especially given your early Uba Mask every game.  Props to you for putting me in a situation with many difficult choices.

I did say after that match that I thought it was cheesy.  Calling the judge wasn't cheesy - there was a rule broken and they should be called in those situations.  Fishing for a game loss was cheesy.  I stand by that.  Saying it out loud I regret, I shouldn't have said anything.  That is why I apologized and shook your hand - not because I did anything wrong or actually thought you were a good sport, but because I regretting saying something to you about it.

Every person who was watching that match and has commented on it to me has said that I was the slighted one here, not you.  I wasn't intending on responding, but just reading your biased account (not that mine isn't, but yours is devoid of most of the game facts) has made me angry.  Anyone here who knows me knows that I'm not an asshole, nor do I stall.  If it looked that way to you, I'm sorry.  You are entitled to your own (wrong) opinion.

If that's how you need to win matches, then you obviously need the win more than I do.  Enjoy.

Bill

You took like 30 seconds for each set of 5 cards from Lim-Dul's Vault.  I'm sorry, I've played Dragon at a tournament before (Actually, I played against MoxLotus in Chicago w/ Dragon when he was playing TPS for a Library) and I only had one draw.  It was against Cron and I took too long making decisions, so we drew.

Anyways, back on subject.  You knew I was playing Stax.  You know it takes me forever to win, but you can win quickly.  You were purposefully playing slow the whole match.  I did go for the game-loss when you drew the card.  You were stalling the whole match, that was the point.  I never said I didn't fish for a game loss.  I said I did it in retaliation.  So whatever?  I did go for a game-loss and I knew I'd get it. 

For those of you who think I should have gotten a warning, I don't agree.  He created an irreversible gamestate by putting a card that should have been revealed into his hand.  There is no possible way for the judge to know which card he actually drew.  So how then, should I know which card he drew?  I didn't care if his card would have impacted the game or not.  He was stalling me into a draw.  I didn't let him.
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« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2005, 09:01:15 pm »

You knew I was playing Stax.  You know it takes me forever to win, but you can win quickly.
Irrelevant.  Maybe you should choose to play Suicide black if you want to avoid stalling/long games.

Quote
I did go for the game-loss when you drew the card.  You were stalling the whole match, that was the point.  I never said I didn't fish for a game loss.  I said I did it in retaliation.  So whatever?  I did go for a game-loss and I knew I'd get it.

So, because your opponent was stalling in your eyes, (despite what dozens of seasoned vets might say on the matchup) you decide to go for a game loss on a technicality.  It's hard to believe that you and your lobbying/rules lawyering/apparent badgering of the judge was completely innocent.  Or even more wrong in comparison to the 'stalling.' 

I wasn't there, nor am I a judge, but from where I'm sitting, that seems pretty weak, dude. 

The UB fish deck does look pretty neat.  I'll have to add that to the gauntlet.
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« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2005, 09:14:07 pm »


You took like 30 seconds for each set of 5 cards from Lim-Dul's Vault.  I'm sorry, I've played Dragon at a tournament before (Actually, I played against MoxLotus in Chicago w/ Dragon when he was playing TPS for a Library) and I only had one draw.  It was against Cron and I took too long making decisions, so we drew.

Anyways, back on subject.  You knew I was playing Stax.  You know it takes me forever to win, but you can win quickly.  You were purposefully playing slow the whole match.  I did go for the game-loss when you drew the card.  You were stalling the whole match, that was the point.  I never said I didn't fish for a game loss.  I said I did it in retaliation.  So whatever?  I did go for a game-loss and I knew I'd get it. 

For those of you who think I should have gotten a warning, I don't agree.  He created an irreversible gamestate by putting a card that should have been revealed into his hand.  There is no possible way for the judge to know which card he actually drew.  So how then, should I know which card he drew?  I didn't care if his card would have impacted the game or not.  He was stalling me into a draw.  I didn't let him.

I'm sorry if you thought I was stalling, but I wasn't.  Almost every time I cast a Tutor, Intuition, or Lim Dul's Vault, I was staring at an Uba Mask and is a bunch of cases a Null Rod as well or a Welder too (with summoning sickness).  That's not a good position for me, but one I can get out of.  The LDV piles I thought about weren't easy (i.e. they weren't 4 land and a mox), they were typically some mana, 1 combo, and a misc card.  I needed to weigh whether I should keep those 5 or try for something better and if I did keep, what order to keep.  Remember in every one of those cases, I could not use Bazaar to discard ANYTHING since you had Uba Mask out every game.  My opening hands game 4 were indeed HORRIBLE, on the order of 6 mana and a squee, or something like that.  I even showed you one of the hands.  Anyone in that spot would have mulliganed those hands away.

If you felt I was stalling and playing slow the whole match, you should have called a judge over, especially if you felt I was doing it since game 1.  You didn't.  We even had a judge called over to answer some rules question in game 2 or 3 and you said nothing.  Then, all of a sudden during the last turn on a minor mistake, I've been stalling the whole game.

Believe me, if this situation happened tomorrow and I knew how to argue my case properly (as this was my first instance of being involved in any kind of incident), at worst, there would be a warning for procedural error.  50/50 you get a game loss for unsportsmanlike conduct.  I wasn't aware fishing for a technicality loss was an actual penalty as I rarely play sanctioned tournaments or frankly anything other than SCG tournaments.

Everyone who I've gotten feedback from that was watching at the end (mostly people I don't know who they are and people who contacted me because I posted more or less the same thing I posted above in the Community forum) has said they didn't think I was stalling and that I played fine.  So it seems only you thought that.  I can live with that.  You openly admit fishing for a win, which is cheating and unsportsmanlike conduct at its worst (I'm not sure which is worse), and you seem to have the opinion that what you did is justified, because you thought I was stalling. 

If you can live with being that kind of player, more power to you. 

Bill

PS I only had 2 of my 7 matches go to extra turns and they were both 3+ game matches.  None of my other opponents said anything my the pace of my play.

PPS - @ Methuselahn - Yah, I played against Evan (this guy's teammate) in Round 6.  It was very solid.
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« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2005, 09:37:52 pm »

You took like 30 seconds for each set of 5 cards from Lim-Dul's Vault.

That strikes me as exceedingly fast, in a format where Brainstorms can take several minutes, and this involves a lot more.
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« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2005, 03:15:43 am »

Quote
That strikes me as exceedingly fast, in a format where Brainstorms can take several minutes, and this involves a lot more

Heh, you would have loved to see me go through my LDVs at the Dutch Open... 10-20 secs for each set tops...  Mr. Green

@ fizix
Sorry to hear your tournament went pretty bad. That fishdeck you posted seems interesting enough and I'll certainly look into it since I want to change decks every now and then (playing Dragon all the time gets predictable). Overall I enjoyed reading the report, hope you'll write some more.

@ dante
He's right you created an irreversable gamestate, but a gameloss was too harsh imo. I don't know how judges are in America but I think, you should only have gotten a warning because giving somebody a gameloss on turn four of the extra turns in a 1 - 1 situation just feels wrong.

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« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2005, 12:59:08 pm »

So, because your opponent was stalling in your eyes, (despite what dozens of seasoned vets might say on the matchup) you decide to go for a game loss on a technicality.

Everyone who I've gotten feedback from that was watching at the end (mostly people I don't know who they are and people who contacted me because I posted more or less the same thing I posted above in the Community forum) has said they didn't think I was stalling and that I played fine.

Both of you refer to people who saw the end.  I'm not arguing anything about the end of the match.  I'm actually agreeing with you.  I'm saying that you were stalling for most of the match.  None of these "experts" were there for the entire match, so stop relying on their input.  They only saw the end of the match, not the whole thing.

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« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2005, 01:52:55 pm »

Quote
You took like 30 seconds for each set of 5 cards from Lim-Dul's Vault.  I'm sorry, I've played Dragon at a tournament before (Actually, I played against MoxLotus in Chicago w/ Dragon when he was playing TPS for a Library) and I only had one draw.  It was against Cron and I took too long making decisions, so we drew.

Anyways, back on subject.  You knew I was playing Stax.  You know it takes me forever to win, but you can win quickly.  You were purposefully playing slow the whole match.  I did go for the game-loss when you drew the card.  You were stalling the whole match, that was the point.  I never said I didn't fish for a game loss.  I said I did it in retaliation.  So whatever?  I did go for a game-loss and I knew I'd get it.   

I've never played combo at any tournament-so I have no idea who you think I am.  Also, if you thought he was playing slow the entire match, call the judge.  You can't say if he was stalling or not-only a judge can.  I call judges over when there is 40 minutes left in the match to ask my opponent to play faster.  To repeat- IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT HAPPENED EARLIER IN THE MATCH IF A JUDGE WASN'T CALLED!!!   Speaking of DCI Floor rules...

Quote from: DCI Floor rules
151.   Unsporting Conduct—Minor
 
Definition
Minor unsporting conduct is defined as behavior that may be disruptive to a person at the tournament, but has no significant impact on the operation of the tournament in any way.

Examples
(A) A player uses excessively vulgar and profane language.
(B) A player repeatedly and inappropriately demands to a judge that her opponent receive a penalty.

Philosophy
Different levels of unsporting conduct should be penalized accordingly. The head judge is the final authority on what constitutes unsporting conduct.

Penalty
Unsporting Conduct—Minor
All Levels
Warning

152.   Unsporting Conduct—Major

Definition
Major unsporting conduct is defined as behavior that is disruptive to a player or players at the tournament, but does not cause delays or include any form of physical contact or significant emotional distress.

Examples
(A) A player repeatedly calls a judge and argues that his opponent should lose the game for insignificant procedural oversights.
(B)   A player fails to obey the instructions of a tournament official.
(C)   A player repeatedly requests a concession from an opponent.

Philosophy
Different levels of unsporting conduct should be penalized accordingly. The head judge is the final authority on what constitutes unsporting conduct.

Penalty
Unsporting Conduct—Major
REL 1   REL 2   REL 3   REL 4   REL 5
Game   Game   Match   Match   Match

It would be the judge's discretion as to whether it is minor (example B) or major (example A).  Either way-you would get at least a warning.

Also I didn't know 30 seconds is an unreasonable amount of time to LDV.  That's pretty quick compared to 90% of people I've seen play that card.
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« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2005, 02:18:53 pm »

Man, if vulgar language is a minor penalty, then I sure lost a lot of matches in my day.

If i'm not allowed to say 'thats fuckin bullcrap"  then that is fuckin bullcrap.
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« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2005, 12:00:55 am »

It's obvious that we're going to have to agree to disagree on the rules points here. 

I've said my piece and he's said his and we should let that be that.  Let's leave the dead horse dead so that people can focus on the rest of his team's tournament report, particularly their UB "fish"/disruption deck, which is quite interesting.
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« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2005, 11:04:33 am »

 
Personally I think the deck is garbage, based on the fact that I LOVE LOVE LOVE Chalice of the void set at 1.  That shuts off much of his deck, including 2 chain of vapor, and after boarding 4 total CoV's.  I don't know about you, but i'm pretty comfortable oathing out fat when he's got 1 answer.

Also, maby combo decks can beat this easily... hands down. Grim Long,   Gifts Oath, Meandeck Gifts.  The only deck I see that combo's that gets hurt by this is Dragon, honestly... because of the wretch. 
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