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Author Topic: Stasis Question  (Read 1857 times)
VarienTanafres
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« on: November 13, 2005, 12:13:09 pm »

Stasis Reads "Players skip their untap steps.
At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice Stasis unless you pay U"

Can that coinside with Seedborn Muse which reads "Untap all permanents you control during each other player's untap step."?

Or would Seedborn Muse never trigger since your opponent has no untap step? I'm thinking the latter. Thanks

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« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2005, 12:35:30 pm »

Correct, Stasis would shut down Muse.
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« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2005, 12:36:27 pm »

Indeed, it is just pure "mathematics":

Seedborn muse says : Do A only during B.

Stasis says : Never ever do B.

Ergo : A is never done.

QED
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« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2005, 11:00:26 pm »

Indeed, it is just pure "mathematics":

Seedborn muse says : Do A only during B.

Stasis says : Never ever do B.

Ergo : A is never done.

QED
That's not actually mathematics.  It's more to say,
If B then A
Not B
but you can't conclude Not A from that.  You can say that B does not trigger A, but not that A will never happen.  Razz
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« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2005, 03:59:28 pm »

Indeed, it is just pure "mathematics":

Seedborn muse says : Do A only during B.

Stasis says : Never ever do B.

Ergo : A is never done.

QED
That's not actually mathematics.  It's more to say,
If B then A
Not B
but you can't conclude Not A from that.  You can say that B does not trigger A, but not that A will never happen.  Razz

First, I put mathematics between "".

Second, if you will take a good look at the "programming" then you will see that it says : A ONLY happens whenever B happens. So if B never happens, then A will also never happen.

Reading 4tw Wink
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« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2005, 06:38:58 pm »

Anusien, you are correct that "Not A." could not be concluded from that.  The statement "If B then A" is what is called a material conditional, and it is true for all truth value assignments except those under which B is true and A is false.  So to say that "If B then A" means that A ONLY happens in the case of B would be incorrect, since the antecedent (B) could be false and the consequent (A) true and the molecular sentence (If B then A) would still be true.  You are thinking of the statement "A if and only if B," which is a material biconditional and entails both "If B then A" and "If A then B."

Limbo's description actually is a material biconditional, and it is actually the best description of the matter.  Seedborn Muse could be rendered as "Untap all permanents you control if and only if it is the beginning of the untap step."  Stasis removes the untap step, so the second atomic sentence (It is the beginning of the untap step.) will always be false.  Since, in a material biconditional, both atomic sentences must have the same truth value, it will always be false that your permanents are untapped.

Of course, none of this is mathematics.  It's sentential logic, which is taught in the philosophy department at most schools.
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« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2005, 07:22:20 pm »

Quote from: Anusien
That's not actually mathematics.  It's more to say,
If B then A
Not B
but you can't conclude Not A from that.  You can say that B does not trigger A, but not that A will never happen.

Better known as "Denying the Antecedent"
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« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2005, 12:19:06 am »

Anusien, you are correct that "Not A." could not be concluded from that.  The statement "If B then A" is what is called a material conditional, and it is true for all truth value assignments except those under which B is true and A is false.  So to say that "If B then A" means that A ONLY happens in the case of B would be incorrect, since the antecedent (B) could be false and the consequent (A) true and the molecular sentence (If B then A) would still be true.  You are thinking of the statement "A if and only if B," which is a material biconditional and entails both "If B then A" and "If A then B."

Limbo's description actually is a material biconditional, and it is actually the best description of the matter.  Seedborn Muse could be rendered as "Untap all permanents you control if and only if it is the beginning of the untap step."  Stasis removes the untap step, so the second atomic sentence (It is the beginning of the untap step.) will always be false.  Since, in a material biconditional, both atomic sentences must have the same truth value, it will always be false that your permanents are untapped.

Of course, none of this is mathematics.  It's sentential logic, which is taught in the philosophy department at most schools.
Thank you for overcomplicating the first week of logic.  By the way, I've never heard it referred to as atomic sequences or material conditionals; are there immaterial conditionals (and yes I have taken courses on this)?  Incidentally, it never made sense to me why some schools teach this stuff in philosophy.  I took a summer class in Logic under Philosophy, and then took it at college under the heading of Discrete Mathematics.  The math aspect makes more sense, because it has direct applications to set theory.
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« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2005, 12:22:34 am »

Enough.
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