Star Wars: What if............?

[Smmenen]

 It's always fun to ask "What if...?" with historical situations because a single event can change the course of history.

It's especially fun to ask that question in fictional settings. It's not just a fun conversation piece or mental exercise, it deepens our understanding of a situation.

Some hypos that came to me are:

What Would Happen if Yoda Kills Darth Sidious at the conclusion of Episode III?

This led to some interesting subquestions. I'll put them forward and then speculate as to what might have occurred (if this is how the story were to unfold).

If Yoda were to kill Sidious, how would it have happened? In the Senate fight, Yoda had no lightsabre. Would he just hurl a pod at Sidious? It's hard to imagine how Sidious would be defeated.

What if Yoda defeats Sidious, but Obi-Wan is killed by Anakin? Would that mean that Anakin would have to face Yoda?

What if Obi-Wan is sent to fight Sidious and Yoda is sent to fight Anakin - how would that have played out? What would that have looked like?

If Yoda had killed Sidious, it would probably have been because he had defeated Sidious in battle, not killed him in battle. So Sidious would probably have to be forced into submission. I can't see Yoda just decapitating Sidious or smashing a pod into his cranium. I imagine that Sidious may well have offered to surrender before Yoda would kill him - making it a ripe conflict of political proportions. Would Yoda have let Sidious submit? What would have happened then? Yoda also lost his light sabre, so he would have to pull off the killing blow in some other way. How?

If Obi-Wan had been sent to fight Sidious, it is hard to imagine Sidious do anything other than scoff as he handily destroys Obi-Wan. But would Anakin, after killing Obi-Wan, have a chance against Yoda? Would Anakin run? Would he run to face Yoda or have other people go after Yoda?

Assuming Yoda kills Sidious, rebuilding would be a huge struggle. He would almost have to take control of the republic with the Padme and Jimmy Smitz. Yoda would need to rebuild the Jedi order from scratch - but how would that have played out? What problems would arise?

[sampling_percus]

What if Harrison Ford was cast as luke and in a horrendous twist Mark Hamill as Han Solo? Would the realtive career paths also be reversed?

[Lunar]

wow...

that was a great post sampling...still laughing...

@ Smemmenenen

Bored dude? heh, but in response to some questions...

Obi Wan would get bitch slapped by the emperor...no questions, yoda would still go lose and the galaxy would be lost for quite a while since luke probably wouldnt make it due to not having obi wan there to train/watch over him on tatooine.

If Yoda kills sidious at the end of III then it wouldnt really matter. The New Republic would still probably occur, although it would be much sooner, and there wouldnt be famous celebrity senators like leah to run things...it would have to be the dull old guys like bail organna and stuff to run things...

If Anakin won and Sidious lost, then anakin would end up coming back from the darkside in the long run...probably, without his love interest to fuel his weird teenage angst anymore, it would take a while to not be so butt hurt, but hed get over it and be a half decent jedi. Maybe even be like Jacen in the books...

Yoda could not have let sidious live...he would have to be like sammy jackson and finish him off, too dangerous an opponent is he.

Anakin would probably stupidly go try to fight yoda (he even says he is as good as yoda in the second movie, which is obviously not true if he cant even beat obi wan, heh...)

All of this would be easier if they had ysalmiri hanging around...

Mark Hammil would kick ass as Indiana Jones, but im not sure how well he could pull off the role in Hunt for Red October...

[Klep]

Mark Hammil would kick ass as Indiana Jones, but im not sure how well he could pull off the role in Hunt for Red October...

Well that's ok because Harrison Ford wasn't in Hunt for Red October.

I don't know how things would have gone if Yoda had defeated Sidious, but i suspect if Yoda and Obi-Wan had switched places, that Yoda could have succeeded in turning Anakin.  With Anakin still alive, Padme might retain the will to live, giving Luke and Leia two parents and a mentor in Yoda.  Galactic history would have been very different.

[Lunar]

Oh crap youre right, heh, a baldwin was Jack Ryan in that one huh? lol, my bad. Perhaps I meant U-571? heh. But Hammil would have to beat out a Baldwin I suppose in HfRO...He could have even done better than aflek in the newer Jack Ryan flick (cant remember the stupid name)

I really dont think though that Harrison Ford could take on the role of Cock Knocker in Jay and Silent Bob nearly as well as Hammil did though...

[Godder]

What if Anakin hadn't been so badly injured in the fight with Obi-Wan, and went on to become Darth Vader, without the bodysuit?

What if Harrison Ford was cast as luke and in a horrendous twist Mark Hamill as Han Solo? Would the relative career paths also be reversed?

Here's another one along those lines: What if Tom Selleck had taken up the role of Indiana Jones? He had to turn it down because shooting coincided with shooting for Magnum P.I. and Ford was offered the part after that, but in an ironic twist, shooting was delayed for one of them, and Selleck could have done both.

[Lunar]

Well Indiana Jones would have won several Oscars for best actor obviously...

[absolute]

Assuming Yoda kills Sidious, rebuilding would be a huge struggle. He would almost have to take control of the republic with the Padme and Jimmy Smitz. .... What problems would arise?

Well, one problem would be sure to arise, Padme would be dead....

[Smmenen]

Oh yeah.  Minor detail.

So if Yoda killed Sidious, who would win in a fight between an Anakin who offed Obi-Wan and Yoda?

Would Anakin come for Yoda?  It seems like Anakin, if he offed Obi-Wan would be a fucking bad-ass having upped like 30 levels in one fight.

[Lunar]

nah, Yoda would still kick his ass pretty badly...experience does count and Yoda is hundreds of years older and more experienced than anakin...

would anakin come for yoda? hmm, only if yoda continued to press the action...remember the emperor and vader dont go after yoda really thouroughly in the later movies so why would it be any different if the emperor had died earlier?

I think later on down the road Anakin might have stood a chance against Yoda if he wouldnt have been injured. The emperor is keeping vader alive but not fully regenerating him throughout the later movies because the emperor feared what vader might become....if vader was at full health and was able to find ways to learn enough extra goodies about the force (since he wouldnt have a teacher anymore) he might be able to defeat yoda, but I find it hard to believe without help from the emperor.

[Machinus]

Yoda would defeat Anakin for the same reason Obi-Wan did defeat him. Anakin is impatient and unstable. Yoda would be able to defend himself from any attack from Anakin, and destroy him at one of many opportunities - the many mistakes and oversights that he makes.

This is even more true if Sidious is out of the picture. Without support and assurance from his Master, Anakin might even destroy himself.


Indiana Jones would suck without Harrison Ford. Mark Hammil is terrible.

[Godder]

Yoda would beat him because he can beat anyone in a lightsabre fight. He beat Dooku (no mean feat given Dooku's technique is specifically designed to beat other sabre techniques) and Windu (sparring).

Obi Wan uses the most defensive technique available, which makes it a good foil to Anakin's technique, but I can't see him fighting the Force Lightning as Yoda did.

[cssamerican]

One of the major themes in the movies is that the weakness of the Dark Side of the Force is over confidence in one's self. This over confidence seems to be due to the ease at which power is attained through Dark Side. Anakin lost to Obi-Wan not because he wasn't more powerful (I believe he was) but rather because he was over confident in his powers. This theme is repeated latter in Return of the Jedi. The Emperor was defeated because he was so confident in his control over Vader. Yet, we know that the Emperor knew that Vader was able to sense Luke at Endor when he couldn't; however, the Emperor's over confidence blinded him to the possible link that had been developed between a father and his son.

As far as who would have won if the battles had been reversed is a difficult one to answer. Apparently once you reach a certain power level in the force the outcomes seem more dependent on something other than force power. Such as over confidence in one's abilities. Think about it, Dooku was a formidable opponent for Yoda in Attack of the Clones, yet in a few years he was dispatched by Anakin with relative ease. The Emperor would have been defeated by Mace Windu if Anakin hadn't stepped in, yet Yoda was unable to defeat him. Does that mean Windu was the most powerful force user of the saga? Some how I find it difficult to believe that the most powerfull Jedi in the entire saga was a victim of an early demise.

Now for my theory in determining the outcomes of Sith-Jedi battles in the Star Wars Universe in which the power levels of the comabatants are relatively similar in power. It actually seems to me that the Sith win every battle when they are not over confident. Maul was able to defeat Qui-Gon and dominate ObiWan for the majority of the fight; however, the instant Maul became over confident in his battle versus Obi-Wan he was defeated. Sidious was over confident versus Windu and lost, yet he feared Yoda and won. Dooku lost to Yoda and later to Anakin because he was over confident. Anakin lost to Obi-Wan and later to his son Luke in Return of the Jedi due to his over confidence. And finally the Emperor loses to Vader for the same reason, although I guess you could argue this one since it really wasn't a fight, but rather a sneak attack.

[Matt]

The Emperor would have been defeated by Mace Windu if Anakin hadn't stepped in

Are you sure about this? I always figured Sidious was just letting Windu win, so that Anakin would come to his aid.

[Juggernaut GO]

I never really believed the emperor could die so easy in return of the jedi.  Expecially If he survived that fight with Yoda in the senate hall, he could easily just levitate or something and not fall to his death.  That was the only thing I never liked about star wars, besides the horrible dialogue George Lucas wrote for Natalie Portmans character.

[cssamerican]

The Emperor would have been defeated by Mace Windu if Anakin hadn't stepped in

Are you sure about this? I always figured Sidious was just letting Windu win, so that Anakin would come to his aid.

Yes, I am pretty sure about it. On the audio commentary Lucas describes the scene after the window breaks as "This scene starts off with Mace overpowering Palpatine". Then Knoll describes the physical change as a result of Palpatine straining to hold off Mace from destroying him as long as possible. Lucas makes some kind of comment about that when Anakin arrives Palpatine used this situation to his advantage to force Anakin to make a choice; however, Lucas never implied in the commentary or in the film that this defeat was staged in order to convert Anakin.

A lot of people felt just as you did though, and that shows just how developed the character of Palpatine is. People give him credit for an elaborate plan to convert Anakin at that precise moment because they perceive the character to have great foresight and cunning. However, if you look at the movie he tried to convert Anakin earlier in his chamber and failed. The intersting thing is Lucas said in the commentary that originally this is where Anakin was going to be converted and later he would come and save Palpatine from Mace. However, he said that didn't play as well as Anakin making his decision in the moment so they went with what you saw in the movie.

I never really believed the emperor could die so easy in return of the jedi. Expecially If he survived that fight with Yoda in the senate hall, he could easily just levitate or something and not fall to his death. That was the only thing I never liked about star wars, besides the horrible dialogue George Lucas wrote for Natalie Portmans character.

Mace couldn't save himself from a fall after being stunned by force lightning, so I don't see the problem in Return of the Jedi with continuity. In that scene Vader and the Emperor are being hit by his force lightning and there is really nothing visible in that shaft for anyone to grab onto. Besides I don't remember any scenes in the movie where a Jedi could levitate or fly. There were a few scenes that showed them jumping unusually high, but that is about it. That said, I couldn't agree more with you about diallog given to Natalie Portman's character, though her performance was such that I really don't think better dialog would have helped her character much.

[Machinus]

Palpatine was very confident that Anakin would come to his aid. Palpatine was very cunning and very powerful, and he would not engage Windu if he was not sure he would win. He had set up the trap for Anakin, and while he probably could not beat Windu in a straight fight, the point is that Palpatine knew that - and he also knew that it wouldn't be a straight fight.

Trying to make sense of Star Wars in a universe without The Force is impossible. Palpatine had an ability to sense the future, and he could also hide his intentions from the Jedi. This obviates whatever strength metric is used to compare Windu and Palpatine, since strength was not the only important factor in that fight.

[Lunar]

They clearly set up Mace Windu as a tie or close to a tie in power as Yoda early in the first movie (when a younger obi wan is speaking with qui gon...) so I think that the possibility of Mace beating the Emperor is real...

As for Levitation, they clearly show that Jedi have this ability in Emperor Strikes Back when Luke is levitating himself and R2-D2 among other things...If the force can levitate other objects, then obviously it is going to be able to levitate a jedi...It really goes into detail in the books as well by specifically stating that the jedi can levitate in several different books.

Even if Palpatine can see the future (which many jedi can do) he really should have listened to Yoda's advice about there being many possible outcomes.

[Smmenen]

I want to know the answer to two questions:

If Yoda had killed Sidious, what would have happened?

Second, if Anakin had killed Obi-wan, what would have happened?

[Danzig]

Yoda would not have fought Anakin. He would try to convert him only. I doubt he would even use his lightsaber.

Anakin would have been reluctant to attack Yoda, though, the Emperor would have had Anakin go after Yoda at least. If yoda failed I'm pretty sure Yoda would go into hiding. If the Emperor were dead then I'm sure Anakin would contact Yoda without attacking and Yoda would succeed in turning Anakin back.

[absolute]

I want to know the answer to two questions:

If Yoda had killed Sidious, what would have happened?

If Yoda had Killed Sidious you could probably eliminate everything in the series from then out, because Vader would have no reason to exist, or wouldn't have any drive to become anything other than average. Anakin's character is weak in respect to confidence, and virtually was a pendulum until either side proved to be more convincing to him than the other. Yoda defeating Sidious simply eliminates the potential of Anakin to exist with the dark side.

Second, if Anakin had killed Obi-wan, what would have happened?

This would remove Luke from becomming a Jedi, although it could be believed that Yoda should be willing to have him serve as an apprentice. The effects of that would prove more beneficial to the Jedi than Obi-wan as Luke's master.

The one scenerio that your probably trying to lead into is what would occur if these events coincided. If both events were instantaneous, Yoda would hold more power to Anakin than the dark side, and again, Vader would cease to be. Without episodes 4-6 all these situations are somewhat believable, but the knowledge of the end is what makes either, or simply one from ever occuring. 

[Godder]

I want to know the answer to two questions:

If Yoda had killed Sidious, what would have happened?

Basically the light side wins, since Vader hadn't yet fully turned. Note that Luke is the balance in the Force, as he creates a new Jedi order that allows emotions and the like, which is a combination of the light and dark sides.

Second, if Anakin had killed Obi-wan, what would have happened?

Assuming he doesn't lose any other limbs doing it, eventually he kills Sidious and becomes the head honcho. It's also hard to say exactly what would have happened to Luke, but conceivably Yoda would have followed him instead. Note, incidentally, that Leia is potentially just as powerful as Luke - she just lacked the training.

[Methuselahn]

I want to know the answer to two questions:

If Yoda had killed Sidious, what would have happened?

Second, if Anakin had killed Obi-wan, what would have happened?

The first thing that came to my head when I read the first question was this:  There would be no reason to have Episode 4, 5, and 6.  If those episodes didn't exist, there is no way 1, 2, or 3 would have been made.  Then I thought about it some more, and realized that Anakin would have died at the end of Episode 3, had he still lost the fight with Ben.

If Anakin had killed Obi-wan, he would have fully crossed over to the dark side and would have went for Sidious' head.  Also, Luke would have been stillborn.

If both questions are true, and Anakin becomes the Sith Master without actually killing his former master, he would probably wallow in self doubt and go mad, never achieving control of the galaxy because Sidious had a natural aptitude for strategy where as Vader was really just a dumb jock type with an attitude problem.

Edit:  I just realized that too many people in this thread think that Yoda would try to work with Anakin/Vader.  That is just not true.  The green man wanted Vader dead.  Maybe y'all don't remember how Anakin tore up Yoda's Jedi Order.

[Klep]

Edit:  I just realized that too many people in this thread think that Yoda would try to work with Anakin/Vader.  That is just not true.  The green man wanted Vader dead.  Maybe y'all don't remember how Anakin tore up Yoda's Jedi Order.

Maybe you've forgotten that being a Jedi entails forgiveness.  Yoda is too great a Jedi to desire something as petty as revenge.  Yoda realized that Anakin had been twisted by the dark side.  He would have tried to turn him back towards the light, so that he could redeem himself.

[Methuselahn]

I just don't think that forgiveness applies to the Sith.  Only the Sith deal in absolutes.  And, it has nothing to do with revenge, it's just a good practical decision for the sake of the galaxy.

[Klep]

I just don't think that forgiveness applies to the Sith.  Only the Sith deal in absolutes.  And, it has nothing to do with revenge, it's just a good practical decision for the sake of the galaxy.

But Anakin wasn't completely turned like Sidious was, as proven when Luke brings him back in Jedi.  I have little doubt that Yoda could have accomplished the same, and would have tried to.  Windu was ready to kill Sidious because that was really the only option.  The suggestion that Sidious could have been somehow imprisoned or turned is laughable, but that was not the case for Anakin.

[Smmenen]

I think you guys who say that Anakin would turn back to the light are severely mistaken.

The ONLY reason, in my view, that Anakin turns back to the light is because he is protecting his son.  His motives for going bad were noble: to save his wife.

Remember how Sidious orders Anakin to exterminate the Jedi at the temple?  Do you know WHY?  Because he said: Only then will you be strong enough with the dark side of the force.

In other words, Anakin's slaughter at the temple was Dark Side leveling up.  I don't think he would have turned back tot hel ight so fast.  PARTICULARLY if he killed Obi-Wan.

I think Yoda would have to fight Anakin, but the question is: where, how, under what circumstances, and who would win?

[Methuselahn]

If Vader wasn't busted up by Obi Wan, he would have eventually, over time, became stronger than Yoda and could have killed him.  Being only recently indoctrinated into the Dark Side, I don't think Vader could have done it.

[cssamerican]

I think Yoda would have to fight Anakin, but the question is: where, how, under what circumstances, and who would win?

Where: Most likely Coruscant. I could see Yoda waiting in Palpatine's office for the young Vader, and spouting some line about how the Dark Side has consumed Anakin. Yoda would then win the duel because Anakin would be way too over confident in his new powers.

If Vader wasn't busted up by Obi Wan, he would have eventually, over time, became stronger than Yoda and could have killed him.  Being only recently indoctrinated into the Dark Side, I don't think Vader could have done it.

I don't think Anakin would have waited to fight Yoda simply because he was so arrogant in his abilities.


Yoda would have had no problem with destroying Anakin. Last time I checked Yoda isn't portrayed in the film as Gandhi, he advocates the destruction of several people including that of Anakin in Return of the Jedi. I mean he asks a son to knowingly kill his Father. While some people somehow feel that Yoda knew Luke could redeem his Father, nothing in any of the six films would support that belief.

[Smmenen]

Not to complicate this further, but we rarely actually *see* Yoda kill someone.

Yoda fights Dooku - to a standstill

Yoda fights Sidious - and drops his lightsabre.

Even if yoda HAD Killed Sidious - HOW would have have done it?  His Sabre was long gone?  Would he just karate chop Sidious head?

Yoda bitches and moans ALOT about the Dark Side - so I have no doubt that he would be capable of killing a Sith - but I'm not 100% convinced he would outright kill Sidious instead of just trying to arrest and confine him.