The return of turboland, sorta

[Juggernaut GO]

Ok, so I got a little bored and wanted to find a new fun deck to play at 2 tournaments this weekend.  I browsed through the mana drain tournament archives and came across a deck keith johnson played at waterbury 4 and made top 16.  I changed around the mana base a little bit and added a few cards and came up with this amazing pile:

1 strip mine
3 wastelands
1 bazaar of baghdad
1 glacial chasm
1 tolarian academy
1 barbarian ring
4 mishra's workshops
4 city of brass
4 gemstone mines
3 tropical islands
1 mox  emerald
1 mox ruby
1 mox sapphire
1 mox pearl
1 mox jet
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault
1 black lotus
1 sol ring

4 crucible of worlds
4 horn of greed
1 memory jar

4 exploration
1 tinker
1 gifts ungiven
1 regrowth
1 demonic tutor
1 fastbond
1 wheel of fortune
1 ancestral recall
1 yawgmoths will
1 enlightened tutor
1 trade routes
1 time twister
1 time walk
1 vampiric tutor
1 crop rotation
1 gorilla shaman

I played this deck at 2 vintage tournaments this past weekend, saturday at myriad games and finished 2nd, and sunday at the grand prix philly type 1 tournament which got me eighth place, 2 italian legends packs, and like a lucky noob I ripped an italian drain.

The only thing I missed about the deck was having a living wish main.  I tested the deck with it and it seemed like  a useless card, but all those games were without sideboarding.  So, come to find out having only the solitary barbarian ring as the win condition can be a little problematic, However, I only lost 1 game because of this.  My B ring got wastelanded and tormod crypted really early, and I had no way to win even though I had infinite mana at my disposal.   If I were to change it now, I would run only 3 horn of greed's and put in a living wish in its place.  Both days I sided out 2 horn of greed every match, it seemed like the only combo piece I did not ever really need to win the game.  So with a wishboard you could have:
1 barbarian ring
1 glacial chasm
3 pyrostatic pillar
4 red elemental blast
3 seal of cleansing
3 ray of revelations

The other thing you might say when looking at the list is, where is the zuran orb?  This card is not needed to win the game and it loses to chalice 0 and null rod.  The whole pointof this build is to get the following cards in play or in your graveyard waste/strip, barbarian ring, glacial chasm, crucible and then fastbond to finish the game. You just tap your colored sources to add red, then wasteland your own land, and replay it with fastbond crucible.  The whole time you have glacial chasm in play so you are taking 0 damage from fastbond and the city of brass.  This is also a great way to get threshold if you didn't already have it. You can still win with exploration as well to fall back on.  And worse case scenario, if you had a horn of greed in play and you find yourself drawing way to many cards and your going to deck, timetwister is there to save the day, just make sure you have your kill pieces in play and not in the grave before you twister.

This deck has an amazing game against any stax deck, but has a problem with chalice set at 1.  There are plenty of sideboard options to get around chalice though, I ran disenchants because  I am a noob, and they were the only cool artifact killing beta cards I owned.  To solve the chalice problem even more, i would almost be inclined to take out an additional horn of greed and add a 2nd gorilla shaman in its place, however this still doesnt solve it if they have already played chalice 1.  Most stax players wont do chalice for 1 game 1 anyway, because they have no clue how turbo land wins, and a chalice at 1 shuts off 1/4 of their deck as well.  Once they catch on and do it game 2 you can answer with a disenchant out of the board, and if they chalice for 2 as well as 1, then they just deserve to with the damn match for being that lucky before you could drop any combo pieces or a  gorilla shaman.

Trade routes was only useful when I could not find a horn of greed to fully combo out, and had to draw into the barbarian ring or the glacial chasm.  Oh, and by the way, glacial chasm makes darksteel colossus and flame fusillade cry.  Gifts has no answer to glacial chasm, unless they are running tendrils.  I put pyrostatic pillar in my board for that reason.  You may say, oh but you have to spend a cumulative upkeep to keep chasm in play, nope, just let it die in your upkeep and replay it through the crucible.  At that point you should already have at least 1 exploration in play so you can repeatedly play the chasm and the land you have to sacrifice when playing it.

If you have to spare time and want to take a risk with a really fun deck to play, sleeve up this bad boy at your next tournament.  I'll see you with it at Rochester !

[Liam-K]

Have you considered oboro, palace in the clouds?  It's pretty hot for turboland.

[UR]

Why not play a single Zuran Orb for those games where 'it might matter'? I've played this deck casual for I don't know how long (actually I do know... right after 5th Dawn was released  ) and I've always loved the Zuran Orb, especially in combination with Balance... which, I noticed, isn't in your list either. Maybe it is worht a try?

But I must say that your list looks a lot better than mine... but then, I don't own any workshops (I substitute them with Ancient Tomb or I just proxy them).

[verduran]

Life from the Loam. Just a suggestion.

[jazzykat]

I totally love the turbo land idea. I always had a land's edge/seismic assault kill in mind but maybe that is a bit kludgey. You can get it out easily with lotus vale, which may not be much of a draw back if you have all those crucible of worlds. Anyway, I don't have too much to contribute but as this thread picks up more steam I may have more ideas based on other's brainstorming.

Edited: For my senility (Rath's Edge != Seismic Assault) and formatting.

[Lunk]

Have you considered Echoing Truth?  In addition to preventing you from decking yourself with Horns (right now, the only thing I see is a single Gorilla Shaman), it's a maindeck answer to Chalice for 1, is strong against several decks (Oath, Dragon), and can let you replay all your Explorations for extra land drops in a pinch.

What about Darksteel Colossus?  Is it unnecessary?  You're already running the Tinker, and with Time Walk + Regrowth it's a single turn kill.

[ReAnimator]

Is red really necessary? I would think Cephalid coloseum would be just as good as a kill and can help you more early/mid game to find your combo. if you drop red you can then afford to run a more fetch with basics land base with out so much worries.
I also question whether or not black is really neccesary, Yag win is obv good but you can't combo out with it that turn unless you have already found a time walk and you don't really have a lot of card drawing to abuse with it. It just seems like more gifts may be better (though the cost is an issue, if you did this you may want city of traitors over workshops. The cities also have built in synergy with the crucibles.)

Also since your running a trade routes, you really should add 1 life from the loam, esp. if you go a gifts route.

I may be a little biased in my assesments I used to run a more control version of this deck with mana drains and forces and no horns. Its possible my ideas would be too slow.

[jazzykat]

I just thought of a few more questions:
How did this do against mana drain decks. Are you fast enough? Does your lack of disruption hurt you? What turn were you killing (on average)?

[Juggernaut GO]

The deck generally won on turn 3, I had 1 loss to a mana drain deck piloted by doug linn on sunday in philly, but beat eli kassis' gifts build in 3 games  I also got paired against a 3cc deck with drains but won through that as well.  My only fuckup on sunday was not running the living wish with the win conditions in the board.  On saturday I beat jiggly puff twice, once in swiss, and again in top 8  he was playing gifts.  Why is it team mates always get paired.  We were in the same bracket on sunday as well.  The finals I played saturday at myriad I really screwed up.  Game 1 I won and was over by my 2nd turn after a time walk.  Game 2 I boarded in 4 Reb's and they would have been plenty of backup, only I screwed up by going turn 1, mox manavault wasteland   crucible, when I had gemstone mine and a REB in my opening hand.  Instead of dropping the gemstone so I could reb his force of will I played wasteland without thinking.  I just zoned out on that game against a control salvagers deck packing drains.  I had turn 2 null rod as well to kill his combo, but the crucible would have sealed the game for me, as he drew only non basics.  Game 3 I actually got land fucked, in a deck packing 30+ mana sources haha.  I really should have changed my sleeves before the top 8 but they were priced stupid.

This deck has a good game against the current metagame to sum up.  It has the following unfavorable matchups :  oath with strip effects, and stax that runs tormod crypt in the sideboard. 

To address life from the loam :  I don't like the card in this deck.  When you dredge, you have the potential of dredging too many important spells into your graveyard that you may not be able to get back such as timetwister regrowth and yawg will.  Also, this card does less work than crucible already does.  I'd rather go first turn crucible and have it force of willed to leave the path open for a turn 2 combo piece instead of having life from the loam sitting in my hand waiting for me to use my 3 strip effects to get them back.  It is more of a defensive card, then a card that belongs in a combo deck. 

Gifts ungiven is great in the deck, my most common pile is  bazaar, glacial chasm, barbarian ring, strip/wasteland

After playing around with the deck today I made a few changes

1 strip mine
3 wastelands
1 bazaar of baghdad
1 glacial chasm
1 tolarian academy
1 barbarian ring
4 mishra's workshops
4 city of brass
4 gemstone mines
3 tropical islands
1 mox  emerald
1 mox ruby
1 mox sapphire
1 mox pearl
1 mox jet
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault
1 black lotus
1 sol ring

4 crucible of worlds
2 horn of greed    (removed 2)
1 memory jar

4 exploration
1 tinker
1 gifts ungiven
1 regrowth
1 demonic tutor
1 fastbond
1 wheel of fortune
1 ancestral recall
1 yawgmoths will
1 enlightened tutor
1 trade routes
1 time twister
1 time walk
1 vampiric tutor
1 crop rotation
1 gorilla shaman
1 living wish
1 darksteel colossus

SB:
4 REB
3 pyrostatic pillar
3 disenchant/seal of cleansing
2 ray of revelation
1 glacial chasm
1 barbarian ring
1 uktabi orangutan

Tinker colossus is a nice 2ndary win condition or just fun to steal a fast game with.  Having another tinker target besides jar crucible and horn didn't hurt either.  The living wish will make a difference in the games that count, along with the small wishboard.  The rest of my side is just metagame slots, for the stuff I always play against.

[jazzykat]

Well, I don't know if it is worth dilluting your sb, just to deal with the oath+strip mine matchup or stax matchup with tormod but here are some of my favorite hosers.

teferri's response (getting into quasi drainable territory and is very focused (i.e. narrow use)  but resolving one should be gg)
stifle (stops whatever ails you for a U)

some old white (enchantment?) janky card? that stops your lands from being destroyed. does someone have a name for me? I think it is Equinox, maybe there are others.


I LOVE this deck. I live in New Mexico but I may have to put it together and play in a tournament somewhere! I will not be able to test until thanksgiving but if you keep on developing, I can at least brainstorm with you.


<side_rant> Where did all the old beautiful artwork go? All the cards I have seen for a long time look like CGI video game shit, instead of paintings, and hand drawings.    I am getting old!</side_rant>

EDIT: Living wish gets both a creature or a land. Insert head against wall.

[Liam-K]

I still say Oboro is strong, better than trade routes, but I also think 4 horns is correct.

I like huryl's in this deck.  It gets you out of chalice and takes your horns off the table so you can go nuts generating mana/barbarian ring stuffs.

I'm surprised you're not running mox diamond.  With 4 crucible and land to spare it is probably amazing.

Since all the cool kids are doing it in every other thread I guess I'll shout about imperial seal.  I'd run it over wheel probably.

[Juggernaut GO]

I tried 4 horn of greed, and it definitely was sub optimal.  I found myself siding out 2 horns every match to bring in REB or disenchant.  You only want to play a horn the turn you haven't yet played a land but before you pass the turn so your opponent can use the card drawing first.  So theoreticly, one of your best first turns are, land exploration workshop crucible, go.  then, on your 2nd turn horn of green and strip mine and draw 2 cards.  It is also not a card that is essential to the combo.
 The purpose of this build is not to get infinite mana and infinite life, but to get glacial chasm in play with fastbond and crucible and barbarian ring.  Fastbond isn't even needed to win, you just need 2 or 3 explorations.  that will make your B ring still do 8 damage a turn.

[Revvik]

Wheel seems too good to cut, there aren't a whole lot of specific cards in the deck that need searching for that can't just be found with Enlightened Tutor, or Vamp / Demonic.  Strictly speaking, there are a lot of cards that all serve a redundant purpose.

Each of these cards put extra lands into play:
4 Exploration
Fastbond
Tutor Effects

Each of these cards draw extra cards:
Timetwister
Tinker / Memory Jar
Wheel of Fortune
Ancestral
2 Horn of Greed
Trade Routes
Tutor Effects

Each of these cards lets you replay 'yarded lands:
1 Regrowth
4 Crucible of Worlds
Tutor Effects

Each of these cards finds you a specific card:
Enlightened Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Crop Rotation
Regrowth
Tinker
Living Wish

This redundancy makes the deck exceptionally threatening.
I do have a couple of questions:
Chalice for 1 - how is this answered?  Most opponents won't know off the bat the correct number to set a Chalice of the Void at during this deck's first showing, but this is the one that I considered most harmful.  It is still possible to use Living Wish to fetch out a Viridian Shaman / Uktabi Orangutan, but if you're under pressure from Stax you will possibly have problems pulling out five mana.
Sideboarding - not only the specifics of what you find important to which matchup, but do you think your sideboard is correct?  Red Elemental Blast seems wholly unnecessary, since control decks should be an easy solution for this deck, with multiple threats by turn 2 and a mana assault tactic available.  Pithing Needle seems key to answer Goblin Welder or Mindslaver, as Fastbond and Crucible of Worlds can provide an autoloss for Slaver decks.
Trinisphere - this deck more than any other, thanks to four Crucible of Worlds, has a better shot at opening with Workshop, Trinisphere, Crucible / Strip.  Is there a reason you never included this card?  Ironworks decided to run it, as it makes things incredibly harder for the opposition to overcome - both the advancement of their game plan and the neutralization of yours.

This isn't unfounded criticism, I actually proxied this up on some old Unhinged commons and am practicing a lot with it lately.

[JigglyPuff]

this deck is very very interesting...when we built this, we wanted to pwn gifts, and thats what it does...gifts has really no answer except to counter the crucible, and in testing i countered three of them and still lost when he played the fourth...

Life of the loam is a "nifty" card but isnt needed in this deck...
it wins faster then you loaming them...

the only answer to a chalice 1 is a .......ummm....an early mox monkey I guess?...

I put memnarch in my deck at the myriad tourney just because i figured id see travis in the t8, and it won me game two and i lost game three because i made an error and let a crop rotation resolve(holding like 3 forces and a mana severence with a belcher in play!!) and he capitallized and fetched out a glacial chasm...

Your biggest factor when playing this deck is surprise...Play it where it never has been seen...at philly in the t8 this noob playing stax could've killed him like fifteen minutes before travis conceded if just wasted his chasm...He didnt know how to play agianst this deck as most people dont...

Its fun so if youre gonna make it...have fun...just make sure you have an answer to a needle on mox monkey, and a needle on b-ring...

[Revvik]

Heh.
I built the deck differently.

Instead of Yawgmoth's Will and Darksteel Colossus, I'm running a third Horn of Greed and a Trinisphere.  I really like the Trinisphere.  A lot.  I guess I figured this deck wouldn't use Will (I was going on memory) because of the desire to repeatedly reuse its threats, but I'll try it out in place of that other Horn.  Horn of Greed is incredibly good for this deck, even in multiples.

Imagine this uncounterable draw engine - I was looking for my Barbarian Ring, or a tutor to find it:

X Explorations or a Fastbond, a Horn of Greed, Crucible of Worlds, and Trade Routes in play, along with Tolarian Academy.
Tap Academy, return it, discard it to draw, replay triggering Horn of Greed.

Draws cards, generates mana, defeats control.  Deck defeats Stax pretty handily due to its ability to generate mana and flood the board with permanents, but what specifically can be done about the combo matchup?  Winning faster isn't always feasible, and its part of the reason I've included the Trinisphere - it slows things down a bit.  Beyond that, I can sideboard in Pithing Needles for Dragon, or possibly four Orim's Chant or something weird like that.

[Juggernaut GO]

newest list:

1 bazaar of baghdad
4 mishra's workshop
1 tolarian academy
1 strip mine
3 wasteland
1 glacial chasm
1 barbarian ring
3 tropical island
4 city of brass
4 gemstone mine
1 sol ring
1 black lotus
1 mox emerald
1 mox jet
1 mox sapphire
1 mox pearl
1 mox ruby
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault

1 gorilla shaman
1 darksteel colossus

1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
1 fastbond
1 living wish
1 regrowth
1 crop rotation
1 timetwister
1 vampiric tutor
1 demonic tutor
4 exploration
4 crucible of worlds
3 horn of greed
1 wheel of fortune
1 gifts ungiven
1 memory jar
1 tinker
1 imperial seal
1 time spiral

side:
1 glacial chasm
1 barbarian ring
2 ray of revelation
4 REB
3 pyrostatic pillar
1 uktabi orangutan
3 disenchant


4 reb is absolutely necessary in a control heavy environment that I always play in. In the midwest, this deck would probably never ever lose a game.  You notice I cut trade routes, and replaced it with time spiral.  Trade routes just was not good enough when I drew it, and when I did get it, i would have much rather ripped a draw 7.  Yawgmoths will also got cut.  It was an inconvinience having to find time walk during a yawg will turn in order to win before your opponent had a chance to intervene. Imperial seal is brought in for enlightened tutor and I brought back a 3rd horn in place of yawgwill.

The best value of this deck is the surprise factor.  And maybe 1 out of 25 magic players actually knows what to counter and what is a threat in the deck.  Most people have no clue how the deck wins even after it gets explained to them. 

The biggest threat against the deck is chalice at 1 and tormod crypt.  I used to run a pithing needle main, but you so rarely run into people that actually sideboard crypts any more.  You can usually play around a crypt anyway, make them use it on you when you cast twister or spiral then you can win after that.  And disenchant comes in game 2,3 to deal with stupid chalice.  You lose if they go and resolve chalice for 1 and 2 on turn 1, but anyone can get lucky.

I can see the merits of running trinisphere, but unless you get it turn 1 its really not that useful in this deck.  Expecially since there is no way to weld it back in  once it does get countered.

This deck would probably lose to dragon, but then again, they have 0 defense against you being the one to combo out.  So, technically you can get a turn 2 win before they do.  And pithing needle is a good answer to bazaar.  It slows them down the 2-3 turns it takes them to find compulsion and by then you should have already won.

strip effects and pyrostatic pillar own any form of storm combo.  game 1 you have a decent shot to win, but there is no excuse to lose game 2 or 3 after you board in pillars.  Storm combo can not possibly win through a pyrostatic pillar.  It just will not ever happen. 

as for 2 land belcher, find glacial chasm and shake hands.

I had my fun with the deck, but now I most likely won't pick it up again, I have a new pet project in the works

[Imsomniac101]

is it Tog with Life from the Loam engine? :lol:

On a related note. Is LftL any good in this deck?

How do you beat active welders on the other side of the board?

[Tobi]

Storm combo can not possibly win through a pyrostatic pillar.  It just will not ever happen.

This is not true. Mathematically you can win with Tendrils while having a Pyrostatic Pillar in play:
1. cast 9 spells (with less than 3cc) --> 18 damage
2. cast Tendrils

Another way may be:
1. cast some amount<9 of spells --> get some damage
2. cast Tendrils --> get some life
3. cast YawgmWill

Not to speak of bouncing the Pillar...


Pillar may cause a problem for storm based combo, but is not an auto-win. If you want to race fast storm combo, you would be better off with Sphere of Resistance.

And disenchant comes in game 2,3 to deal with stupid chalice.

There are far better ways to deal with Chalice than Disenchant. Engineered Explosives and Echoing Truth may even be run maindeck.

[Lunk]

4 reb is absolutely necessary in a control heavy environment that I always play in.

Wouldn't Xantid Swarm be better?  Assuming the primary purpose of the REB's is to resolve your own threats rather than countering your opponents, Swarm can come down turn 1 before they get Drain mana on line and continue to be effective throughout the game, fits in more easily with your color scheme, and can be Wished for game 1.

I'm going to once again say that Echoing Truth is fantastic in this deck.  It clears up just about every threatening hoser your opponent can play (Chalice for 1, Tormod's Crypt before you drop something necessary into the grave, Root Maze, Ankh, etc), bounces your own Horns when you start to get the infinite Ringing going, screws with Oath, gets rid of opposing Colossuses, gives a Welder summoning sickness for an extra turn so they don't weld out your Crucible, and so on. 

[Revvik]

Gorilla Shaman takes care of Horn of Greed.

You seriously dislike Trade Routes?  Every time I've drawn it during goldfishing, it ends up drawing me so many cards due to its interactions with the rest of the deck.
I personally dislike Yawgmoth's Will in this deck, although I have yet to try it.

Trinisphere isn't just good on the first turn - there are key moments in any game where laying down a Trinisphere can mess up an opponent's math or turn the Force in his hand from protection to useless.  Few cards in this deck are as solid as Trinisphere is.

Time Spiral is decent, but I think it's only good when you are already in a winning position, whereas Trade Routes can be played early on, save your nonbasic mana base from Wasteland, and cycle dead draws away.  This might just come down to personal preference.

RE: Xantid Swarm - this seems MUCH more solid to me than Red Elemental Blast, especially since you want to be using your mana during your turn, and it's still Wishable without changing the maindeck any.

RE: Imperial Seal - The deck already runs a complete set of power, 4 workshops, and two Bazaar of Baghdad.  For budget reasons, I'm going to keep it as an Enlightened Tutor, although I can think of few situations where E. Tutor is better than Imperial Seal.