What's Rogue Now?, or Is Aggro Ignored?

[fatalist.remix]

This is generally similar to Smmenen's topics, but directed at a more narrow question that he hasn't posed.  In a field as diverse as that of current Vintage, how succesful must a deck be and for how long before it is accepted as a part of the ideal or given metagame?

Things like FCG, Dreidel.dec, and possibly, umm, whatever LoamZombieAggro is called are able to put people into the T8 with some regularity, but in my experience they are still regarded as statistical outliers.  Is testing vs. Aggro dead, given that most decks gameplan against Aggro strategies remains constant?

[Zomar]

Aggro isn't ignored, but nobody really cares about it.

Straight up aggro such as FCG is not even worth testing against in my opinion. FCG plays basically zero disruption outside wastelands and stripmine. Whenever I play against, or really any deck without counters, Goblins I feel invincible. I feel like as long as I try to win as fast as possible, I will win. It's like goldfishing. With the increase of tutors tinker for DSC is a very easy play to make within the first few turns. It's like aggro has no way to deal if you have even a single counter.

However, Aggro Control is worth testing against. Sometimes there is so much hate that the matchup becomes incredibly difficult to win. Knowing how to beat the hate, and if its not possible, changing the deck or sideboard to make it possible is very important. Aggro Control is a very popular type of deck as it is usually budget and less difficult to play than other archtypes (at least against the matchup its made to beat). There are many different aggro control decks, and it seems like a new one is made every week. Testing against every version seems near impossible, but all aggro control decks do one thing the same, disrupt you with generally the same cards. You don't really need to know how to face wild mongrel or flying men, it's how to deal with duress, wasteland, chalice, stp, and meddling mage that is important. If you know how to combat those cards (and the other commonly used disruption cards), you should be well off.

I believe a rogue deck is a deck that uses some cards that other decks don't use, or atleast not very often. The new cards need to be better than any other alternative card, or the deck isn't rogue, it's bad.

[Gabethebabe]

Aggro isn't ignored, but nobody really cares about it.

Straight up aggro such as FCG is not even worth testing against in my opinion. FCG plays basically zero disruption outside wastelands and stripmine. Whenever I play against, or really any deck without counters, Goblins I feel invincible.

Dude, you are so wrong here. There is no deck in T1 invincible when playing aginst FCG, pespecially when you depend on blue spells to resolve. FCG is quite a good deck. It can/should go off before your awesome 11/11 indestructible trampler has had the chance to turn sideways 2 times. Tinker for colossus is not good enough to win against FCG, you also need to counter their vital stuff (and avoid their REBs). Maybe you have an advantage, but invincible:  :lol:

[Zomar]

Dude, you are so wrong here. There is no deck in T1 invincible when playing aginst FCG, pespecially when you depend on blue spells to resolve. FCG is quite a good deck. It can/should go off before your awesome 11/11 indestructible trampler has had the chance to turn sideways 2 times. Tinker for colossus is not good enough to win against FCG, you also need to counter their vital stuff (and avoid their REBs). Maybe you have an advantage, but invincible:  :lol:

I don't know. At least with the decks I play, FCG seems like an easy match. FCG is fast, you just have to be faster. Usually I feel like I can be. REBs is a new addition to FCG, and IMO not a very good one. FCG has to tap out every turn to play its guys. If it wants to hold back mana for REB, that's just good for me because I'll have more time to win the game. Then again, FCG has a better matchup against control slaver and gifts than the random crap I play.

also the fact that in general high level players use "better" decks like workshop and drain decks leads to people feeling less need to test against aggro and aggrocontrol.

[sean1i0]

Zomar, I've got to disagree with you here.  REBs are awesome in Goblins!  The biggest threats to Goblins are blue spells, so REBs and Pyroblasts are just the shit.  However, I gain from your post that you're playing some type of turn 1-3 combo deck, since you mention going off before goblins.

Anyway though, I think that decks such as the one that you mentioned need probably something around 2 appearances in major tournament T8s or perhaps just a consistent T8 performance in an area over several months before they'll get more than a handful of people who are confident in their abilities and thus consider them part of the "gauntlet" to test against.

[Zomar]

Zomar, I've got to disagree with you here.  REBs are awesome in Goblins!  The biggest threats to Goblins are blue spells, so REBs and Pyroblasts are just the shit.  However, I gain from your post that you're playing some type of turn 1-3 combo deck, since you mention going off before goblins.

Anyway though, I think that decks such as the one that you mentioned need probably something around 2 appearances in major tournament T8s or perhaps just a consistent T8 performance in an area over several months before they'll get more than a handful of people who are confident in their abilities and thus consider them part of the "gauntlet" to test against.

REBs in aggro decks always have their ups and downs. The main concern of any aggro deck is Tinker. More games against aggro are ended by tinker than in any other way. If an aggro deck can stop tinker, they have a very good chance of winning the game. The problem with REBs in aggro though is that they are reactive cards. It's in aggro's nature to play things at sorcery speed, to tap out during its turn. In order to play REB you need to hold back a mountain, by holding back a land, you aren't dropping threats. This leaves the aggro player with two options: dedicate the first 1 or 2 turns playing threats and then keep mana open for REB while beating them down, or constantly keep 1 mana open and drop 1cc guys on turn 2, 2cc on turn 3, etc. Neither of these options is fullproof. By dropping threats first, you are giving your opponent crucial time to get tinker, or do something else broken. With the increase of tutors, turn 2 tinkers are all the more prevalent. But if you hold back mana, you are also giving your opponent more time to win the game. You must also consider that your opponent will typically have more counters than you, therefor if they force your REB which you were keeping open instead of playing guys, you in a terrible situation as you essentially gave your opponent extra turns.

Perhaps what I said before was unclear, I don't think REB is a bad card in FCG, it's just that I don't think it's a good one. It has good synergy with lackey as you won't be forced to tap out with guys. If you don't draw lackey, I don't think you will be able to play it before turn 3-4. Turn two is when piledriver and recruiter comes down, not dropping them to keep REB open is a mistake in that the longer you wait, the harder it will be to win. The downside of it possibly being a dead card isn't too great, because you already have a good matchup against most non-blue decks. It's definitely good in that it can by you an extra turn or two to win the game, but I don't think it should be included without serious look into its usefulness and without playtesting. There was an old saying about FCG: other than the food chains and the mana, the rest should be goblins. The only other considered card was wheel of fortune, but giving seven to your opponent proved too dangerous. I don't know if that saying holds true anymore. Red decks might be forced to play REB main now as almost a staple card.


Going back to what Gabe said about DSC not being fast enough against FCG in control. A hand that lets you find/cast tinker and has a force of will should be enough to race them straight out (the force being for countering some random dangerous spell, thus giving you time to win). That's just as likely as your opponent having a fast opening with recruiter/foodchain or piledriver + swing for a lot early on.
As the game goes on longer and the control player gets a decent amount of mana, goblins loses as nothing stops pentavus. If you're not playing pentavus then you are playing oath, which stomps FCG anyway, or gifts. If you are playing gifts, well, I hope you lose.
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Oh about the decks I play: shitty ones like sex, the mountains win again, enter the dragon, and cherry parfait. Before I was talking from the perspective of a typical control or combo deck.

[bebe]

Pure aggro has never been the most popular of decks. But forms of aggro have always existed.

Lets take LoamZombieAggro ( Wild Zombies by Andrew). When he played the deck he rarely had a creature blocked. Think about this for a moment. I have seen Fish decks rarely have a creature blocked going through a tournament as well. There are good reasons for this. Bird Sh*t succeeds because it has some disruption and can lay out threats that aren,t blocked so can finish the game fairly fast. FCG also follows this mold. I,m amazed how much credence is given to Tinker/Colossus - yes its strong but there are numerous ways to deal with this threat if you know that it is your opponents gameplan. FCG is combo/aggro not pure aggro. Ankh Sligh was contro aggro. Erayo Affinity succeeded in extended because it was not pure aggro.

Its funny - I play the only rogue decks at every tournament. I am consdidering playing  an aggro deck that can consistently win by turn five at the next Ontario Vintage. What you say? Turn five? Seems a bit slow although it can win by turn three with a very good draw. It packs disruption though. It has counters, E.E., Echoing Truths, Duress. It has a sideboard designed to protect it.

So to your real question ...

Its not wise to ignore aggro. You need to have a plan to deal with it. Good builds do. However, some metas are tailor made for an aggro deck to succeed. The foil for aggro has always been fast combo and now Oath. If your meta is rife with these builds it might not be a good choice. My experience is that at larger venues these decks pop up with more regularity. So experienced players pick decks that take advantage of this.

Vintage is constantly evolving. People are comfortable with the decks that they recognize. It takes a long time for a new deck to
gain acceptance as a legitimate contender. We like to discuss and pick apart new decks and sadly often ignore the potential of new synergies being introduced into the meta.