Uba Stax - pseudo primer

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I noticed you suggested cutting Null Rod. How much worse is Null Rod than Gorilla Shaman? Rod kills your mana, whereas Shaman needs it to run. Shaman Kills Permanents, Rod can be welded.

I think Null Rod is the strongest card in the deck.  It's such a bomb in the current meta.  It makes Will nigh-unplayable almost.

I've been out of the current meta for six months. Can you elaborate as to what precisely about it makes Null Rod such a bomb? Does Chalice for 0 on the play, and Chalice for 0 + Monkey on the draw, more or less accomplish the same thing?

Monkey alone doesn't deal with things like lotus+will or using moxes as bad lotus petals.  Even 1x use of this mana can allow your opponent to cast a spell possibly breaking out of your lock.  As for chalice at 0+monkey, that's 2 cards to get about the same effect (and remember it doesn't stop sol ring or mana vault), and if you have rod chalice can be set at another useful number such as 1 or 2.  Also remember that eating with shaman takes mana and in the early games you want to be using your mana to drop lock components.  And aside from the mana denial rod happens to do other things like shutting off trike, pentavus, and mindslaver against CS, stopping the activation of a goblin charbelcher, etc.

[b-tings]

Since I haven't seen Memory Jar being mentioned anywhere yet, can it possibly replace Wheel?
It can use shop mana, is a permenant, can be welded in/out (which can possibly win the game this way), sort of dodges rebuild (artifacts can be replayed during the next few turns), and activates at instant speed.

I'm phenomenally lazy, so I'm just going to paste my old rant on why Memory Jar is cuts. I'll give it a once-over for no longer relevant information, but most of the stuff that was true six months ago is still true today. This was originally from the mentioned Gamble-Stax thread, and made it's way into my filling out 5c stax thread. With any luck, the ideal Stax deck will continue to evolve, and I'll be able to revive this rant every six months, upping my post count without actually having to think.



Consensus among players is that Jar is a "must-counter." That means, if Jar is resolving, your opponent does not have the ability to counter, or alternatively you tapped low enough for Jar not to be a threat for a turn and they're just setting up for the win next turn anyways (Gifts, mostly). In the second instance, Jar is clearly bad, but it's the first instance I want to talk about. If your opponent has neither the ability to counter your spells nor the abilitiy to draw into a counter to counter your spells, you should just resolve a threat (Karn costs the same amount of mana) and win. Considering you play 4 Chalice of the Void 4 Sphere of Resistance 4 Smokestack 1 Trinisphere (my build), cracking jar immediately is usually not an option. This gives your opponent time to set up for your jar turn, which mostly involves untapping. When you DO crack Jar, ignoring the fact that the cards involved influence your opponent's decision to keep their opening hand or not, in any random game you give your opponent a shot at 4 Brainstorm, 4 Mana Drain, 4 Force of Will, and probably 1 Mystical and 1 Vampiric Tutor. You're probably not in a position to play Moxen between Spheres and Chalice, but let's for sake of argument give you a mox and land drop off a Jar. Presuming you cast Jar off the first 5 mana you had available, that gives you seven mana. Sometimes this will be more, sometimes less, but I'd say seven mana for a jar hand is pretty generous given what I've seen, considering we're going to play it out with no spheres on the table, and no chalice for zero(this, of course, raises the question of why in hell you were keeping a hand with no spheres or chalice for zero, and why you're not dead yet from doing so, but we've read this far, we're going to finish the fairy tale). This gives you the chance to cast AT MOST two threats. That's 5 mana for the chance to cast two threats next turn on a good day, while your opponent gets 7 shots at 14 cards in their deck. If they draw Force off your Jar, you just traded two full turns of mana for a threat, as opposed to the one turn it would take for you to resolve the threat if you just put more redundancy in your deck instead of a Jar. If they hit Brainstorm, they get to set up their next two draws out of ten new cards you've shown them, which puts an opponent who didn't have enough gas to do anything against the Jar in the first place well back in the game. The mirage tutors have largely the same effect, although they can be better or worse than brainstorm depending on what you Jar your opponent into and what's left in their deck. Don't even get me started on Jarring an opponent who you've been trying to pin under mana denial the whole game into a Mana Drain.

*Snipped out parts not relevant to the 5c decklist originally in question*

If this discussion seems biased towards the control matchup, that's probably because that's what's popular right now. Even so, against other match-ups, you're still jarring them into SOMETHING. Fish runs Force of Will, sometimes brainstorm, and Aether Vial. Combo (mostly TPS) runs everything that control does except Mana Drain, but they also run Rebuild (Gifts does too, but there are other control decks out there, despite what the internet will make you think). Rebuild in response to Jar's end-step trigger is Big Games unless you were gripping more threats before you jarred, which of course brings us back to why you're jarring in the first place. Against other shops, you've got twice the lock parts, meaning twice the spheres, chalices for 0, smokestacks etc. to minimize your mana; you'll be lucky to drop a land and a threat, and if your opponent wins the Welder war, you're going to be in for a world of hurt when their Jar hand hits the graveyard.

...and Rack and Ruins in a pear tree.

*end copy/paste tangent*

So yeah. Man, do I hate Memory Jar. That card is bad.

[Buttons]

I noticed in the possible hosers that you dismissed Damping Matrix against Uba Stax as an overcosted Pithing Needle. This brings up a series questions, in my mind:

1) How crucial are welders to the operation of this deck? You also said you would rather drop Chalice at one than a welder turn one against CS. How comfortable would you be playing this deck without access to your welders?

The deck can work without Welders.  Welder is abused in this deck far more than other decks - most anyone can tell you that, but because of Smokestack, you can get yourself in position to sac Chalice for one, play two Welders, and put out another one.

The manabase of this deck is ROCK SOLID.

Which leads into

2) How strong can Damping Matrix be against CS or other decks packing Heretic?

Notably, it shuts off Welder and Heretic, as well as random large artifact such as Pentavus, which was always an issue with 5c and seems like it could be a real pain in the ass, even with welder or heretics of your own, and Mindslaver, which is never fun times . Null Rod deals with the latter two but not the former. I'm out of touch with the last six months or so, having taken a break from the game to get adjusted to university life (read: drink myself stupid). Does matrix shut off anything else popular in non-CS decks?

The idea is to play Null Rod to slow your opponent down via mana of moxes, and smokestack/wasteland recursion to rip them apart.

Null Rod is the most powerful mana hoser in the format right now, and dismantles Combo and Will.  Moreover, the trend is for slaver to run 3 Welders, of which you have 3-4 B-rings to take them out.

Heretic is a problem which the deck just can't handle very well.  Multiple B-rings are about the only thing that can really take care of a Heretic.  Darkblast is inferior to the 4th B-ring here, especially as Darkblast doesn't produce mana.  This is probably the only case, though.

3) If Damping Matrix is a feasable sideboard option, how far do you go to accomodate it? Do you remove Shamans when you board it in? Welders? Karn? Do you remove some of these from the main deck?

I'm mostly interested in finding a strong solution to Heretic, as it really does seem leaps and bounds ahead of other hosers. Is something as specific as Pithing Needle too narrow? Is it possible to construct the deck to constrict mana even further, in order to make anything that requires 6 mana accross two turns a non-issue in a large enough majority of games to make Heretic undeserving of specific sideboard slots? How do Heretics of our own stack up against Heretics vs. the other decks? If we both have one in play, who's winning the majority of the time? It seems fairly obvious that CS will gladly engage in a Heretic staring contest, but the rest of the Workshop decks my brain is too rusty and I am too far away from my testing partners to figure it out

Granted, you don't need Heretic more than Slaver does in the matchup, Heretic is far more versatile than Pithing Needle with regard to other decks.

Slaver is a very tough matchup.  Against Slaver, you need B-ring for the Welders, and Smokestack for mana denial.  (wasteland/crucible) works alright as well.

On an unrelated note, I'm trying to work in Sphere of Resistence, and I noticed you suggested cutting Null Rod. How much worse is Null Rod than Gorilla Shaman? Rod kills your mana, whereas Shaman needs it to run. Shaman Kills Permanents, Rod can be welded. My biggest objection to Shaman is and always has been that at 1cc, it interferes with the strongest chalice you have available. How do you work around this in matchups where you want a chalice at one?

For all questions, I understand that negative synergy can be circumnavigated better in Bazaar decks than in other decks, but are there other reasons why specific negative synergies might be more or less important than others, ignoring sheer power levels?

I don't know who suggested cutting Null Rod, but that's quite possibly the worst idea ever.

I wish I could make room for a 4th.  I completely agree with combo-master JD on this one.

Since I haven't seen Memory Jar being mentioned anywhere yet, can it possibly replace Wheel?
It can use shop mana, is a permenant, can be welded in/out (which can possibly win the game this way), sort of dodges rebuild (artifacts can be replayed during the next few turns), and activates at instant speed.

Memory does not force players to lose their hand under Uba.  Against control, you want Uba out to stop the flow of counters, and then Wheel to force them to get rid of them.

It's also amazing against Combo under Uba.  Basically, Wheel is amazing under Uba, and Memory Jar is hard to hardcast.  Welder makes Jar abusable, and it would be very abuseable in the new Green-Red build with Fastbond out, but this deck's strength is ...

Absurd Consistency.

I think it's generally the most consistent deck in the format, and by far the most consistent of the prison builds.  You get what you want more often than any other deck, and the rare times when you go into topdeck mode without a bazaar can really surprise you.  The beauty of the deck, though, is in the opening hand.  When you see three different things you can play first turn to royally dominate your opponent, and you have to choose which one is best...you know you have a good deck.

Memory Jar mucks opening hands up, and doesn't do as much as Wheel mid-late or late game.  Mid-game it might have potential under Welder, but it's still inferior to Wheel, because by mid-game you should probably have out a Null Rod or Uba (neutralizing your fast-mana, and not disrupting your opponent).  Moreover, you might give him something like vampiric tutor, that wins him the game because he gets his hand back at the end of the turn.

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Also, for the player who's been out of the meta for six months:  Null Rod shuts off artifact mana, rendering all their mana sources useless.  If they draw into Mox after Mox, that's basically time walks for you, because you have bazaar to pitch fast-mana to, or, because Null Rod doesn't stop Moxes from coming into play, you have the ability to throw down a Mox, bazaar away an Uba Mask or Smokestack, and weld it in for the Mox.

That's why Null Rod is infinitely better than Shaman.  With Shaman, they also get a chance to USE the mana before you destroy it.  It also requires you to have open mana to use the Shaman.  Shaman almost acts as Null Rod 4 and 5, but is worth putting 2 in, and 3 Null Rods because you want to actually destroy their artifacts so that Smokestack can take it's toll.  It's also worth noting that Shaman is absurdly good when you have Academy out, while Null Rod doesn't become better with alot of mana.

2 Shaman 3 Null Rod is the correct ratio, although it wouldn't be wrong to do 3 and 3.

[nataz]

 b-tings:

Although I applude your efforts, I think you actualy being too lazy here. the old 5 color stax lists are very differnt then the mono-red Uba Stax which runs a MD Wheel of fortune. A lot of what you say as points against Jar, apply to wheel also.

Some important differences to consider.

No resistors besides the 1-of trin means you have more freedom in resolving your spells.
a full set of welders to help push around chalice and allow you to play moxen.
no insta-kill like karn
Bazaar + welder allows the deck to be much less reliant on hardcasting artifacts if need be

Wheel v. Jar in UbaStax

Under Uba Mask:
-Wheel leaves your opponent with no hand (MINDTWIST!) what so ever at EOT w/ an uba out.
Jar gives your oppoent back his original had. However, you can use Jar to dump valuble cards into the GY and avoid the RGF trigger on the Mask.


In General:
-Wheel costs less, but Jar can be welded in
-Wheel is a sorcery, but jar can be played like an instant with welder.  

I'm not sure which one is better. Avoiding the RFG trigger and weldability seem pretty sweet to me, I'd like to hear other peoples opinions.
 

[zergwrong]

b-tings: I am comparing Jar to Wheel, to you, and 5c Stax, Jar might be bad. However, since vorman DID ran Wheel in his list, I am just wondering why he ran wheel instead of the Jar.

Well, We can compare the two from the posts above:

Memory Jar:
5 Mana, (colorless, shoppable, making it 3+2 mana), instant speed activation.
Wheel:
3 Mana, (red required, non-shoppable), socery speed.

Memory Jar:
With Welder, can be retarted.
Wheel:
One shot use.

Assuming Uba is out:

Memory Jar:
*Might* survive Rebuild. But return opponent's hand as well.
Wheel:
You die to Rebuild, however, get rid of opponent's hand.

Assuming Null Rod is out:

Memory Jar:
Another permenant for Smokestack.
Wheel:
Superior.

Any other points to add?

I am not saying that either one is superior or inferior, just discussing the possiblity of improvement of the deck.

On the other hand, if the deck were to splash green for crop/bond, what would the SB look like?

[Mantis]

First of all, I think B-things has some really strong points.

However, the primary reason for Wheel being strictly superior to Jar in Uba Stax, is Mind Twist effect the wheel gives when having an Uba Mask out. Also, the Wheel is a nice refuel after you have dumped your hand to Bazaar and leaves you high on permanents under a Smokestack.

The whole Welder argument makes sense in a way, but when discarding to the Wheel, you will probably dump some expensive and usefull artifacts in your yard anyway. So instead of Welding in the Jar, you could also go for a Duplicant or Smokey or whatever you need.

[Buttons]

b-tings: I am comparing Jar to Wheel, to you, and 5c Stax, Jar might be bad. However, since vorman DID ran Wheel in his list, I am just wondering why he ran wheel instead of the Jar.

Well, We can compare the two from the posts above:

Memory Jar:
5 Mana, (colorless, shoppable, making it 3+2 mana), instant speed activation.
Wheel:
3 Mana, (red required, non-shoppable), socery speed.

Memory Jar:
With Welder, can be retarted.
Wheel:
One shot use.

Assuming Uba is out:

Memory Jar:
*Might* survive Rebuild. But return opponent's hand as well.
Wheel:
You die to Rebuild, however, get rid of opponent's hand.

Assuming Null Rod is out:

Memory Jar:
Another permenant for Smokestack.
Wheel:
Superior.

Any other points to add?

I am not saying that either one is superior or inferior, just discussing the possiblity of improvement of the deck.

On the other hand, if the deck were to splash green for crop/bond, what would the SB look like?

Some good points.  I forgot to make the very important point of Null Rod axing Memory Jar.

With Memory Jar recursion, you have a bigger chance to see workshops/chalices for appropriate numbers, but your opponent has more chances to get Hurkyll's/Rebuild, which is really a huge threat.

Wheel is almost entirely used to get rid of your opponents good cards, especially under Uba.  Playing Gifts, you let them sculpt their hand, and then you go Wheel on them - even if you don't have Uba out.  They have to "rebuild" their hand again, and you just win after getting all your new stuff.  I remember a tourney report from a Gifts player when a Uba player did this against him - he would have won the next turn, but Wheel royally screwed him, mainly as he discarded a Gifts, Will, and Rebuild - and even though he picked up recoup, where the Uba player put down chalice for 2 off his seven cards drawn (even though he had mana for chalice for 3, which he would have set it to, had he not seen rebuild and will fall, probably).  Vroman's testified to the usefulness of Wheel against Gifts.

I've also found Wheel easier to hardcast, because you're not so reliant on Workshop.  Workshop is wasteland target no. 1 alot of times, and being able to get rid of Jar/have a useless artifact to weld it out for/being able to weld it out is sometimes hard.

Wheel is good when you're not winning.
Memory Jar isn't.

[b-tings]

EDIT Chopped the intro. I don't think I have anything terribly important to add to the Wheel/Jar debate, other than that I'm considering not playing either, as I dislike the situationality. Having not played the deck, I'm not really in a position to comment on interactions beyond the purely theoretical. So it's just the one post to deal with.

1) How crucial are welders to the operation of this deck? You also said you would rather drop Chalice at one than a welder turn one against CS. How comfortable would you be playing this deck without access to your welders?

The deck can work without Welders.  Welder is abused in this deck far more than other decks - most anyone can tell you that, but because of Smokestack, you can get yourself in position to sac Chalice for one, play two Welders, and put out another one.

I was using the Chalice for one as an example. More accurately, how would you feel not having access to Welders for an entire game. You'll notice this is more or less a Damping Matrix tangent; saccing Matrix to get a use out of Welders before recasting them is not only a very minute gain compared to the saccing and recasting of Chalice for one, but it's also phenomenally dangerous, opening you up to counters, Welders/Heretics on the board, etc.

Which leads into

2) How strong can Damping Matrix be against CS or other decks packing Heretic?

Notably, it shuts off Welder and Heretic, as well as random large artifact such as Pentavus, which was always an issue with 5c and seems like it could be a real pain in the ass, even with welder or heretics of your own, and Mindslaver, which is never fun times . Null Rod deals with the latter two but not the former. I'm out of touch with the last six months or so, having taken a break from the game to get adjusted to university life (read: drink myself stupid). Does matrix shut off anything else popular in non-CS decks?

The idea is to play Null Rod to slow your opponent down via mana of moxes, and smokestack/wasteland recursion to rip them apart.

Null Rod is the most powerful mana hoser in the format right now, and dismantles Combo and Will.  Moreover, the trend is for slaver to run 3 Welders, of which you have 3-4 B-rings to take them out.

Heretic is a problem which the deck just can't handle very well.  Multiple B-rings are about the only thing that can really take care of a Heretic.  Darkblast is inferior to the 4th B-ring here, especially as Darkblast doesn't produce mana.  This is probably the only case, though.

Again, you're running with the wrong example. This question had nothing to do with the role of Null Rod; it was about the potential role of Damping Matrix. I'm fully aware of what Null Rod does. I probably shouldn't have included it in the example at all, as it doesn't really add anything to my point. I apologize for the distraction.

3) If Damping Matrix is a feasable sideboard option, how far do you go to accomodate it? Do you remove Shamans when you board it in? Welders? Karn? Do you remove some of these from the main deck?

I'm mostly interested in finding a strong solution to Heretic, as it really does seem leaps and bounds ahead of other hosers. Is something as specific as Pithing Needle too narrow? Is it possible to construct the deck to constrict mana even further, in order to make anything that requires 6 mana accross two turns a non-issue in a large enough majority of games to make Heretic undeserving of specific sideboard slots? How do Heretics of our own stack up against Heretics vs. the other decks? If we both have one in play, who's winning the majority of the time? It seems fairly obvious that CS will gladly engage in a Heretic staring contest, but the rest of the Workshop decks my brain is too rusty and I am too far away from my testing partners to figure it out

Granted, you don't need Heretic more than Slaver does in the matchup, Heretic is far more versatile than Pithing Needle with regard to other decks.

Slaver is a very tough matchup.  Against Slaver, you need B-ring for the Welders, and Smokestack for mana denial.  (wasteland/crucible) works alright as well.

*sigh* Same shit, different pile. You're still not responding to the discussion of Damping Matrix.

On an unrelated note, I'm trying to work in Sphere of Resistence, and I noticed you suggested cutting Null Rod. How much worse is Null Rod than Gorilla Shaman? Rod kills your mana, whereas Shaman needs it to run. Shaman Kills Permanents, Rod can be welded. My biggest objection to Shaman is and always has been that at 1cc, it interferes with the strongest chalice you have available. How do you work around this in matchups where you want a chalice at one?

For all questions, I understand that negative synergy can be circumnavigated better in Bazaar decks than in other decks, but are there other reasons why specific negative synergies might be more or less important than others, ignoring sheer power levels?

I don't know who suggested cutting Null Rod, but that's quite possibly the worst idea ever.

I wish I could make room for a 4th.  I completely agree with combo-master JD on this one.

It was Vroman. When he suggests something regarding this deck, it's probably a good idea to perk up your ears and listen. For the record, he mentioned it if Null Rod was less relevant in a player's metagame. Anyone able to comment on what metagame this might be, specifically?

Also, for the player who's been out of the meta for six months:  Null Rod shuts off artifact mana, rendering all their mana sources useless.  If they draw into Mox after Mox, that's basically time walks for you, because you have bazaar to pitch fast-mana to, or, because Null Rod doesn't stop Moxes from coming into play, you have the ability to throw down a Mox, bazaar away an Uba Mask or Smokestack, and weld it in for the Mox.

That's why Null Rod is infinitely better than Shaman.  With Shaman, they also get a chance to USE the mana before you destroy it.  It also requires you to have open mana to use the Shaman.  Shaman almost acts as Null Rod 4 and 5, but is worth putting 2 in, and 3 Null Rods because you want to actually destroy their artifacts so that Smokestack can take it's toll.  It's also worth noting that Shaman is absurdly good when you have Academy out, while Null Rod doesn't become better with alot of mana.

2 Shaman 3 Null Rod is the correct ratio, although it wouldn't be wrong to do 3 and 3.

Being out of the meta for six months doesn't change my ability to read. I can figure out what Null Rod does just fine. I asked what exactly about the current meta makes it so good RIGHT NOW?

[Buttons]

The deck is better with Welders than without, which immediately cuts Damping Matrix.

Vroman was saying that if the meta called for it, to add in Spheres instead of Null Rods.

That is, like a regular store meta - not big tournament meta.

Alot of my posts earlier were for posts other than yours, B-ting.

[Komatteru]

For the record, he mentioned it if Null Rod was less relevant in a player's metagame. Anyone able to comment on what metagame this might be, specifically?

I guess it would have to be a meta where there's little Slaver and/or Gifts, little 5c Stax, and little combo (ok, so most metas have little combo).  Such metas do exist, but they'd be small local metas, as pointed out.  Null Rod is amazing vs. those decks there, but is terrible against aggro and Oath, which tends to be more prominent in small metas.  SoR can really slow down aggro, which is often enough to locate Smokestack and get it pumping.

[b-tings]

For the record, he mentioned it if Null Rod was less relevant in a player's metagame. Anyone able to comment on what metagame this might be, specifically?

I guess it would have to be a meta where there's little Slaver and/or Gifts, little 5c Stax, and little combo (ok, so most metas have little combo).  Such metas do exist, but they'd be small local metas, as pointed out.  Null Rod is amazing vs. those decks there, but is terrible against aggro and Oath, which tends to be more prominent in small metas.  SoR can really slow down aggro, which is often enough to locate Smokestack and get it pumping.

Sounds an awful lot like the Northwest to me. I guess the logical follow-up is, "How good will Shaman be when Null Rod isn't?"

[sean1i0]

This is going to sound like a crap answer, but I think it's the truth:  Gorilla Shaman's usefulness will be completely dependent on your metagame.  Even if you're in a meta without moxen and other artifact mana acceleration and without ravager decks (null rod's pretty good against raffinity, a deck that normally rolls through stax pre-board in my experience), the usefulness is dependent on how many people are running artifacts that you need to wipe away with the mox monkey.  In general, I would say that gorilla shaman usually follows null rod in usefulness, but there's the other 45% or so of the time, not the majority, but still quite pertinent, when people play lots of dual lands and pithing needles to protect them or other such things. 

Plus, the amount of Oath in this small tournament must at least be considered:  If you know that over half of your matches are going to be Oath, then disruption that triggers oath of druids is obviously not going to be ideal.

[vroman]

Ive been without reliable internet for over a week so Ive been delayed in addressing these questions.

jar vs wheel
jar's inability to coexist w null rod makes it unplayable in this deck period. besides that is the fact that its much easier to actually use the 7 cards off wheel the same turn the wheel is cast, then to use a memory jar hand the same turn jar is cast. the uba-twist effect is gold when it pays off too, and jar has no similiar benefit. jar is not worth considering.

damping matrix
at one time I had the strategy of boarding welders out and bringing d-matrix in against control slaver. however I found that it was too redundant w null rod already main in the deck, and better to run nrods alone and board in welder removal (at the time = lava dart). its a much superior strategy to straight out kill welders than too suppress them w d-matrix, bc then you're just asking enemy to eot rack and ruin the d-matrix, and then his welders come alive w a vengeance. for the same reason Ive never been scared of pithing needle or ground seal, bc I keep my welders on board just waiting for smoky to do its work. darkblast is infinitely more worrying.

null rod vs monkey vs chalice
3 overlapping ways to hose artifact mana in this deck. all perform distinctly different and equally important alternative functions though. true monkey is the worst at stopping artifact mana since enemy gets at least one activation of their mana, however the real power of monkey is board control, in combination w welder to wipe out entire boards of artifacts.

[UR]

From the original post (highlight added);

Sphere of resistance is a great card. playing 5cstax, resistor is my favorite opening (besides strictly better 3sphere of course). resistor prevents turn 1 welder and moxes from accomplishing anything; temporarily acting as both chalice @ 0 + 1. since resistors are cumulative, if they are to be played at all, 4 is correct. I disagree w you that the utility slots are expendable, and thus the only other thing to potentialy drop for resistors is null rod. across the whole meta, nrod is more disruptive than resistor, and resistor has the potential to be a pain in the ass on my side of the board, since I have so many 4 drops that get bumped up to 5. this is very relevent since workshop + mox is fairly easy to come by, but 5 mana is almost always a turn 2 play at best. nrod effectively increases cost for me as well, by knocking out some mana, but I can cycle dead cards w bazaar or sac dead moxen to smoky, making the loss more managable. this said, I do like the classic 2sphere, and would endorse an ubastax list that ran -3 nrod, -1 [solemn?], +4 resistor, if nrod was less relevent in that player's meta.

Am I the only one who didn’t get this? If you open with a Sphere or a Null Rod, wouldn’t the rest of your cards automatically become turn two plays? Otherwise you had at least 5 mana to begin with.

Maybe I shouldn't post when I'm tired, but if somebody would explain this to me I would be much obliged.

P.S. I thought it was a very nice read that made things very understandable (except for the quote above, which I may be misreading).

[Smmenen]

Vroman, how did you green splash work out in tournament?

[PucktheCat]

for the same reason Ive never been scared of pithing needle or ground seal, bc I keep my welders on board just waiting for smoky to do its work. darkblast is infinitely more worrying.

You've said this a few times, and I just wanted to mention that it is completely contrary to my experience.  In the Gifts-UbaStax matchup (the only one I can really speak to) I find Darkblast much worse than Pithing Needle for the following reasons:

1.  It requires black mana, so it is stopped fairly easily by Wasteland and hosed almost entirely by Cow+Waste.
2.  It is cast over an over, which makes it vulnerable to Chalice = 1.
3.  It costs you a draw every time you want to kill something.

The last isn't a big deal, but it hurts from time to time.  The first two make the card virtually unplayable against UbaStax in my opinion.  You can't rely on a hoser than is wrecked by 8 cards in your opponents main deck.  Pithing Needle, on the other hand, is only vulnerable to Shaman and Smokestack.  In spite of what you say about just waiting for them to sac it and then going crazy, Smokestack isn't very relevant here.  When you have an active Smokestack that forces your opponent to sac off critical permanents you have already won.  Gifts decks at least simply cannot come back from a cleared board.

Gorilla Shaman is a real concern - he can remove a Needle to break open an otherwise close game.  But you only run 2.  I would rather take my chances with two Gorillas than 4 Chalices and 4 Wastelands.

I would only consider running Darkblast in a Gifts build with a maindeck Swamp, and even there it would be more because I can toss it into a midgame Gifts and Dredge it back if they send it to the graveyard than because I think it is better than Needle on its own.

Leo

[vroman]

@leo
darkblast is only good of course if you have secure access to black mana. decks that run many rainbow lands or 3-4 underground seas are candidates. gifts is terrified of mana denial, and only wants to put u-sea in play the turn it wins, so dblast may not be a good answer. I would never play a basic swamp in gifts, though maybe in slaver if I expected to face stax all day. the dredge synergy w gifts ungiven is worth exploiting, again more so in slaver-gifts.

@smennen

green spash is excellent, Ive played in 2 small tournaments so far w RG and never been sorry. crop rotation is basicaly d-tutor in this deck since theres so many special utility lands. one time I used it w 5 cards in the yard, and no other way to fill the yard. I fetched b-ring and had exactly threshold to kill a welder that was the only thing stopping me from going broken. other times I cropped for bazaar and exploded thanks to active welder or uba mask. most the time though, enemy really wish they could counter cropper, simply bc I begin strip recursion.
if Im at near 20 life, fastbond can be an auto win. fbond + crucible = yawgmoths will for land, and as stated, lands are unusually powerful in ubastax. late game, this can be unstoppable card advantage. fbond + crucible + bazaar + waste = yawgmoth's bargain. fastbond also fuels explosive openings that drop all 7 cards on the board.

current list:
4 shop
4 waste
4 bring
4 bazaar
3 taiga
1 academy
1 strip
9 restricted mana
4 welder
4 smoky
4 chalice
4 crucible
3 nrod
3 uba
2 monkey
2 dupe
1 trisphere
1 wheel
1 fbond
1 cropper
side
4 pblast
4 visheretic
3 fiery temper
2 tormod crypt
2 glacial chasm

the sideboard has changed a fair amount. Fiery temper is the best card advantage solution I could find to problem creatures like enemy heretics and withered wretch (UBfish is getting played in midwest), that are hard to take down w b-ring. and its way cheaper than extra duplicants. its also great bc I can get lucky and activate bazaar w an empty hand just in the hopes of ripping f-temper before their dude becomes active. theres plenty of other 3 toughness guys that need to die, juggernaut, old man, trike minus one bullet, etc. now instead of being forced to board in extra duplicants against decks running heretic, but few other creatures worth duplicanting, I can board my maindeck duplciants out, and bring f-tempers in as more efficient solution.
glacial chasm is an experimental replacement for maze ith, as a more universal protection, and it combos w fbond to go infinite. unfortuantely there are only a few match ups that its unbeatable in, ie decks that have no land destruction and can only win through dealing damage, (ie belcher, scrubby aggro) however even w the threat of enemy wasteland, its still a potent hoser. the cumulative life drawback is fairly irelevent compared to the typical vintage damage clock. and w crucible the life loss can be almost entirely ignored.

Im considering going back up to 4 ubas w 1 duplicant main and 1 side, and drop back to 3 heretics.

[pyr0ma5ta]

vroman: that list looks really solid.  My only question is this: once the game is locked up, do you win with monkey/welder/dupe beats and/or bring?

What's the sideboard plan look like against archetypes like gifts, fish, oath, and stax mirror?

[b-tings]

I agree with going down to three Ubas, as I've found four to be unwieldy. I am in a heavy aggro/workshop meta, though. I've also found Wheel to be overly situational and annoying to cast, although that might be partially due to the fact that I'm running four spheres atm.

How often do you find Tempers getting stuck without a Bazaar in sight? How many have you hardcast?

I like Chasm, mostly for the amusing ability infinity card combos involving Wasteland, Barbarian Ring, Crucible, and Fastbond. On the plus side, once crucible is on the table, you can find three other pieces just milling with Bazaar. Lands are fun.

Have you found Taigas being wasted often, or do the 1238941324896 other targets draw enough fire from the other side of the table to leave the lands well enough alone?

Re your reply to Damping Matrix, two things: firstly, spot removal can't deal with Welder and Heretic at the same time. Secondly, I'm not currently running Null Rods main.

[Buttons]

I'm gonna have to start playtesting against GRuba.

I'm thinking about taking the Duplicants out all together, because this deck has a crazy versatile sideboard.

[vroman]

@btings
I played w resistors briefly, and did notice the cost increase was prone to backfire, as it makes the deck extremely dependent on keeping a shop in play. wheel becomes quickly unplayable w more than one resistor on board.

hardcasting fiery temper is not a problem, though clearly bazaar is preffered. activating barbarian ring requires RR (red source + the bring itself), which the deck is designed to achieve regularly. RR1 is minimally more difficult to muster.

although chasm is a powerful combo piece (with a god hand, ubastax can now win turn ONE), Im primarily testing it for its intended purpose of damage prevention from enemy sources. I would never board it in against a deck that can win outside of damage, ie tendrils, mindslaver, decking. I would hesitate to board it in against decks running wastes, even if they are cut off from winning until they remove it. maze ith was my most reliable weapon against oath, and g-chasm is suposed to replace that, yet chasm is hurt much, much worse by waste than maze. I am still undecided whether it is worth boarding against decks w access to land destruction, and if not, then would I be better off w the less egregious card disadvantage hoser of m-ith afterall, and give up on elaborate turboland combos.

if you board d matrix, clearly cut heretics, for presumably rack and ruins, or perhaps uktabi monkeys

[Buttons]

What would a Damping Matrix sideboard look like?

4 Pyroblast
3 Damp Matrix
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Duplicant
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Maze of Ith/Chasm

?

By the way, for those of you who don't understand how Ubastax can win turn one:

Wasteland (or strip)
Bazaar
Chasm
Fastbond
Taiga (or any green mana source)
Crucible
Workshop (or lotus)

You play the green mana source, then fastbond.  Then you play the Chasm, saccing Taiga.  You then play Workshop or Lotus, break it to play Crucible.  Replay the Taiga.  Then you play Bazaar + Wasteland.

This is the beauty of Fastbond + Crucible.

Step 1)  Tap the bazaar to draw two and discard three.  (actually, you just discard two, but who cares?)
Step 2)  Waste the bazaar.
Step 3)  Replay the bazaar.
Step 4)  Replay the wasteland.
Step 5)  Repeat.

You draw down until you have a few cards remaining in your deck.

By now, you have a Barbarian Ring in the graveyard.

You win by doing this:

Step 1)  Replay a B-Ring from the yard.
Step 2)  Replay a Taiga from the yard.
Step 3)  Replay a Wasteland from the yard.
Step 4)  Tap the Taiga to produce a Red mana.
Step 5)  Pay the B-Ring's activation cost, sac it to deal 2 damage to your opponent, or his platinum angel. 
Step 6)  Waste the Taiga.
Step 7)  Repeat.

You actually don't even need the Taiga.

It's not complicated, and it gets the job done.  I can actually say I've gotten the god-hand in a game.

By the way, you can draw into the Chasm or Crop Rotation if you need to.

Versus Gifts one time, I needed to win THIS TURN, because my opponent was going to swing with Colossus again.

On the board, I had:  Bazaar x 2, Fastbond, Crucible, no Welder, no Chasm, no Wasteland.

I'm at 11 life.

I draw B-ring.

I tap Bazaar, and mill Smokestack and WASTELAND into the grave, as well as discarding B-ring.

I replay wasteland, tap bazaar.  Mill away CROP ROTATION and a random jank card.

I waste bazaar.  Replay both Bazaar, and Wasteland.

9 life.

Same thing.  7 life.  5 life.  3 life.

I don't get anything.

I waste Bazaar, and only replay that.

2 life.

I comment that the only thing that can save me is a Chasm.

Tap Bazaar:  Tolarian Academy, and GLACIAL CHASM.

Play Chasm, saccing Bazaar.

I win.

[yespuhyren]

I'm gonna have to start playtesting against GRuba.

I'm thinking about taking the Duplicants out all together, because this deck has a crazy versatile sideboard.

I've been doing this for a while.  I like it better in G/R without dupes

[benthetenor]

What would a Damping Matrix sideboard look like?

4 Pyroblast
3 Damp Matrix
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Duplicant
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Maze of Ith/Chasm

?

By the way, for those of you who don't understand how Ubastax can win turn one:

Wasteland (or strip)
Bazaar
Chasm
Fastbond
Taiga (or any green mana source)
Crucible
Workshop (or lotus)

You play the green mana source, then fastbond.  Then you play the Chasm, saccing Taiga.  You then play Workshop or Lotus, break it to play Crucible.  Replay the Taiga.  Then you play Bazaar + Wasteland.

This is the beauty of Fastbond + Crucible.

Step 1)  Tap the bazaar to draw two and discard three.  (actually, you just discard two, but who cares?)
Step 2)  Waste the bazaar.
Step 3)  Replay the bazaar.
Step 4)  Replay the wasteland.
Step 5)  Repeat.

You draw down until you have a few cards remaining in your deck.

By now, you have a Barbarian Ring in the graveyard.

You win by doing this:

Step 1)  Replay a B-Ring from the yard.
Step 2)  Replay a Taiga from the yard.
Step 3)  Replay a Wasteland from the yard.
Step 4)  Tap the Taiga to produce a Red mana.
Step 5)  Pay the B-Ring's activation cost, sac it to deal 2 damage to your opponent, or his platinum angel. 
Step 6)  Waste the Taiga.
Step 7)  Repeat.

You actually don't even need the Taiga.

It's not complicated, and it gets the job done.  I can actually say I've gotten the god-hand in a game.

By the way, you can draw into the Chasm or Crop Rotation if you need to.

Versus Gifts one time, I needed to win THIS TURN, because my opponent was going to swing with Colossus again.

On the board, I had:  Bazaar x 2, Fastbond, Crucible, no Welder, no Chasm, no Wasteland.

I'm at 11 life.

I draw B-ring.

I tap Bazaar, and mill Smokestack and WASTELAND into the grave, as well as discarding B-ring.

I replay wasteland, tap bazaar.  Mill away CROP ROTATION and a random jank card.

I waste bazaar.  Replay both Bazaar, and Wasteland.

9 life.

Same thing.  7 life.  5 life.  3 life.

I don't get anything.

I waste Bazaar, and only replay that.

2 life.

I comment that the only thing that can save me is a Chasm.

Tap Bazaar:  Tolarian Academy, and GLACIAL CHASM.

Play Chasm, saccing Bazaar.

I win.

I haven't actually tested the green splash yet, though Vroman seems to like it, but I will just say one thing once more: be wary of the danger of cool things.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/3689.html

UbaStax isn't a combo deck, so I'd be really, really wary when trying to push it that way. I'm not saying that this is your only reason for the green splash, but using a 7 card combo (two of which are scarce if not restricted) as the basis for an argument is suspect at best. A 5 land hand with only a single lock part is really, really sketchy. FoW on Crucible will end that game in a hurry. FoW on Fastbond means that you won't be doing anything interesting for at least 2 more turns.

Ahh, but what do I know? Flame away.

[Buttons]

You didn't need to quote the whole thing. 

It's just a possibility.  Fastbond improves opening hands and wins you the game if you get it out.  Having another must-counter 1cc target for decks is ALWAYS a good thing.

Crop rotation just wins you the game alot of times.  It's your 5th Bazaar and 2nd Strip Mine.

Those are the primary reasons for adding it in - the god-hand combo is just there to be nice.

You can also draw into all of the pieces, like I illustrated in the Gifts matchup where I was at 11 life.

EDIT:  Oh, and Fastbond/Cropper also make Wheel and Ubazaar engine better.  ALOT better.

You can bazaar with uba mask out, get another bazaar and a lock piece you really need, like, crucible.
Then you can bazaar again and get workshop/strip mine.
Or you could bazaar and get taiga/cropper.  (you would cropper for academy or workshop then to play the crucible)

Play both, and the crucible.

DOUBLE EDIT:

Also, with Fastbond/Crucible, you can not only just draw into something you need, but you can yawg's bargain yourself into a cropper or chasm, (or B-ring, if needed).  (you need uba mask for the cropper).  The benefit of doing something like this early is that you can get your graveyard so big that opposing little men (especially welders) and even Heretic will never be a problem.  Lands are more powerful in this deck than any other.

[benthetenor]

I agree that lands are more powerful in this deck than any other. I have played the deck, and talk often with it's creator. The part that bothers me the most is trying to warp the deck around a single restricted card. It's fine to add it in, but taking out more consistant strategies to add more explosive ones based upon a single restricted card does not add to the strength of the deck, it's consistency. The times that you draw the Fastbond will be very much outweighed by the times you do not.

If you already have Crucible/Wasteland (or if you're particularly sick, Crucible/Strip Mine), what is gained by having Fastbond? In that case, Fastbond is a win-more card. You will put significant strain on your opponent without having to completely decimate them this turn. What about when you have Wasteland/Bazaar/Uba Mask? Once again, you're already winning and gaining significant card advantage. If, as in your extreme example, you have Crucible/Wasteland/Bazaar/Uba Mask, you sure as hell had better win that one, Fastbond or not. Fastbond is a win-more card. Crop rotation has merit, but once again, the only time I could ever see it as being truly needed is in fetching out a restricted land. Tolarian Academy is nice but more often than not overkill, and Strip Mine, while sometimes necessary, is not really worth distorting the manabase any more, especially given the eventual outcome of milling to Strip Mine and the fact that you'd rather, in most cases, be dropping a land that does something rather than a dual land. Card Advantage >>> Tutors, especially in a deck with such homogeneity. I personally feel that they are both win-more cards, but tell me where I'm wrong.

[vroman]

fastbond is definitely not win more. here are 3 reasonable situations where it wins the game when you otherwise might not
1. fbond in opening hand w lots of mana and threats
ie [taiga, fbond, shop, bring, crucible, welder, waste] if Im on the draw then I get to kill their land, and play both welder and crucible turn 1, where otherwise it would take 3 turns to accomplish all of those. thats like having another lotus in the deck.
2. say its late game and I have an empty hand, a crucible on board and nothing else of interest. ripping fastbond here is like yawg will for G. I crush their mana, and potentially go infinite if I have the right cards in yard.
3. in the stax mirror, fbond is a game breaker. fbond makes their crucible irrelevent, the most important card in the match.

fastbond improves the strategic agresiveness of the deck, and adds an obscure combo win as a bonus. Ive never pulled off the chasm combo in tourny play yet, nor do I expect to, but both cards are worth playing independently, and their strange synergy shouldnt be the only focus of the conversation

[sean1i0]

I've just recently finished getting the cards to start playing and testing ubastax, but even in the testing that I've done in this short amount of time, I've come upon a situation where having taigas instead of mountains would have been very bad.  It allowed stability of my mana base enough for me to pull ahead.  I don't know if those types of situations are worth taking out crop rotation and fastbond or not, but I feel that the situation is worth reporting.  Also, as I do more testing and find out anything else, I'll post them here.

[b-tings]

their strange synergy shouldnt be the only focus of the conversation

Yeah. Pretty much.

I've decided to stop bringing up anything except for the point I'm making. Examples end up backfiring on me, nevermind the pointless joking that led to half a dozen posts.

[Buttons]

I suggested the green splash after about 200 games (seriously) of extensive playtesting.  Vroman's been wanting it in the deck since it's creation.

It seriously makes every single matchup better, and it's sometimes (it's happened to me at least three times now) where drawing fastbond could have been the only thing that would have saved me.

I didn't get fastbond any of those times, but still.

I can't think of any times where having a taiga instead of a mountain detrimented me.  Wastelands are almost always reserved for bazaars or workshops, and I play 4 taigas instead of Vroman's 3. (no 4th b-ring).

I'm also currently doing a 1 chasm/1 duplicant MainDeck, just to improve my chances of getting it so I can test it out.

I'm probably going to move it to the board, and make the 2nd duplicant the 4th b-ring, although I might opt for the exact list Vroman is running right now.

I don't like having 5/2 (lotus and emerald included, which are null-rod dullable), and would much rather have 4/2 with taigas, 6/2 with lotus and emerald included.

I can respect people who don't opt for the green splash on terms of consistency, but the potential brokenness AND synergy of the green splash is something too hard for me to resist.

I have only gotten screwed one time having a green card in my hand that I could not cast in the next turn or so, (in 200 games).  Granted, sometimes the card was fastbond, so I would bazaar with a crucible out, just hoping to get some kind of green mana to cast fastbond and go broken because I was playtesting.  6/2 ratio is really good.