New Lobotomy/Word of Command

[Matt]

NAME
2BW
Sorcery
Target opponent reveals his or her hand. Choose a card from it. That player discards that card. You may search your library for a copy of that card and put it in your hand. If you do, shuffle your library.

I had to make this cost more than Coercion, though I wanted to price it at 2B. I figured this was a sort of gold effect, but I was sick of U/B getting all the fun stuff.

Current wording:


Appropriate
1BW
Sorcery
Target opponent reveals his or her hand. Choose a card from it. That player discards that card. You may search your library for a card with the same name as that card, reveal the card, and put it into your hand and shuffle your library.

[Jacob Orlove]

Since this is gold, it could probably be 1BW, and possibly even BW.

[Bram]

Yeah, as a tutor effect, this is pretty crappy (in that it's highly conditional to the point where you can't even influence the conditions like you could with, say, Diabolic Intent). Still at BW, this is likely too strong. The discard effect itself is pretty neat since you can pick land. I say 1BW.

This should be called 'Plagiarize'...can we still get away with 'Plagiarism', for example? Alternatives:

Impersonate (though this really makes me think of something with creatures)
or
Ridicule
(for the tutor flavor, really)

Ooh wait - Filch
(this conveys the theft aspect...of an idea, in this case).

[dandan]

I like this at 1BW, almost certainly too strong at only BW. Filch seems fine as a name. I'm not sure why this is White though.

[Bram]

Same reason as Gerrard's Verdict, I guess

This effect could be mono black, flavor wise (matter of fact, it really should be) but it would have to be expensive that way (and have at least double black in it...something like 2BB or even more). The white splash, while not particularly flavorfull, serves primarily as a mechanism to make the card cheaper. Much liek Eladamri's Call, which is basically a mono green card that should cost at least 1GG otherwise.

[Jacob Orlove]

Could we make it BW if it was nonland? That's more in line with the purpose of the card anyway.

[asmoranomardicodais]

I'm sorry, but this simply isn't a B/W ability in the slightest. Choosing a card from the opponents hand, discarding it, and then manipulating the library in some way is a B/U effect, period. As well, this is a tutor effect, which should be blue as well. The white in this card doesn't do anything white, and the black is bleeding over into B/U territoy. In order to make this B/W, like Gerrard's Verdict, it has to allow some choice on the opponents part. For instance, this would be a B/W effect:

Name
1BW
Sorcery

Choose a number greater than zero. Target opponent discards a card with converted casting cost equal to that number. If they do, you may search your library for a card that shares the type and casting cost of that card, reveal it, then shuffel your library. (The types of cards are artifact, creature, land, enchantment, sorcery, and instant)


In this case, you don't get to look at the opponents hand, but instead have to guess, which puts this more in flavor.

[Matt]

I don't see how this is blue at all. Both tutoring and discard have almost always been black. If anything, you should be arguing for mono-black, not B/U.

[Bram]

I totally agree with Matt. This is not at all B/U. At its heart, this is a pure black effect. The white 'splash' is only for mana cost reduction considerations, and has a precedent in both Verdict and Eladamri's Call.

[Anusien]

Shouldn't it say to search your library for a card with the same name instead of a copy of that card?
Anyway, I like it at 1BC, but I'm not sure it should be White.  I could see this in monoblack (for 2BB), 1UB or 1BR (red has had similar abilities before, and the tutoring at almost random seems very red), but not 1BW.  I don't see where it's white.

Incidentally, I like this, because it makes you choose between taking a powerful card and a less powerful card that you have in your library.

[Matt]

Four-mana discard is awful (barring Persecute/Mind Twist), but this HAS to cost more than Coercion if it's monoblack. Hell even three mana discard is basically unplayable.

[dandan]

This is basicaly unplayable at 2BB and not very strong at 1BW (although I'm sure someone somewhere would snag an Ancestral or YawgWill eventually). Let's be honest, there isn't much White about this but just about everyone prefers 1BW to 2BB (I guess it could be BBB but that cost is reserved for very cool stuff). As such I'll throw in the Dandan 'we know it isn't but can't we pretend it is' arguments for making it White:

1. The discard effect is Black. Then White kicks in with its 'Eye for an Eye' effect. So you plan to cast Ancestral Recall, see how it feels. The punishment matches the crime - a very White concept.
2. Gerrard's Verdict and Vindicate both show that BW effects often appear to be either Black or White when cast, reflecting the unique polarising nature of the colours. BW doesn't do Grey.
3. The card tempts the caster, do you choose to make your opponent suffer more (by taking the most powerful card) or chose the path of personal enlightenment (by choosing a card you have in your library). As with many Black vs. White choices the two opposite paths may lead to the same destination.
4. The effect, when applied to a creature could be seen as a conversion to the side of the caster. That Welder will not obey your commands, it will loyally serve me. You could view the taking of a spell as exorcism of that idea from its controller and the idea flowing into the exorcist.
5. The fact that a card ends up in the graveyard and (probably) in play, reflects the twin aspects of Death and Life

All too many Gold cards are merely the sum of the two parts (a certain RW card springs to mind). Can't we have a Gold card that instead improves the efficiency of one of the colours by adding the expertise of the other?

[Marco]

How about {B}{W}?

[dandan]

I don't think this needs more Black, it clearly has to cost 'more' than Coersion so as far as I see it that only leaves us with

2BB Most people agree that a 4cc discard spell would be bad. Having said that Cranial Extraction seems to be popular although I guess it does a lot more than cause a 1 card discard.
1BW The choice of a few here. Dubious claim to being White but can't we do that once in a while?
1BB Probably a little too cheap as you can probably pick a land and therebye 'cantrip'. Might still be OK at 1BB

The main argument seems to be if we can reduce the CC to 1BW by allowing the dodgy White aspect to this card.

[Bram]

If it's 1BB, it should definitely say nonland.

[Matt]

I definitely don't want it to be 1BB. I want this to be splashable as possible, so you have a better chance of having the tageted card in your deck (a monocolored deck might never find what they discard, but a 4 color deck more often will have something).

[SpencerForHire]

This seems like more of a blue tutoring affect so almost seems appropriate..  The same as lobotomy.

[Bram]

For the second or third time in this thread: how in god's name is this blue? This isn't blue. Nothing about it is blue, and we don't want it to be B/U. You know, even in the card creation forum, reading the thread is tech...

[dandan]

My vote goes to 1BW

Can democracy trump the colour pie?

[Jacob Orlove]

I still don't understand why this can't just be nonland and BW.

[dandan]

I'd be a touch worried about the power level at BW although my main problem with it is the card then looks a little like

B (Duress) + W (WTF does White have to do with it?)

Whereas 1WB looks a little more like

2B Coersion (but we all know Coersion is overcosted) + W/1W/WW White payback effect (Eye for an Eye, Honorable Passage, Samite Ministration, Shadowbane, Enlightened Tutor, Tithe)

Ignoring the suspect maths, can you see what I am trying to say? Basically the card could be BW but at the risk of being too strong (cheaper CC means earlier casting means more choice of finding a card that you have in your deck) and putting equal emphasis on the W which I'm sure most people would agree is far more questionable than the B component of this spell. 1BW looks more like a gold Coersion.

[Jacob Orlove]

It would be easy enough to create a balanced flavor for the card--or alternatively, to use the flavor to empahsize the mostly black nature of the card.

[dandan]

I'm not sure why a BW version can't chose land. One of the tenuous links to this being a White ability of fetching land a la Tithe. Gerrard's Verdict actually rewards you if you make an opponent discard land.

[Bram]

It's not that a BW version can't pick land....it's just that at BW this would be way too good if it could. It's either 1BW and land or BW and no land for me.

[dandan]

I phrased that badly. I can't see a logical reason for a BW discard spell not to be able to pick land seeing as Gerard's Verdict rewarded you for forcing land to be discarded and about the onlt precedent for White getting a tutoring effect like this is Tithe, which only fetches land. However it seems that everyone agres that a BW version shouldn't be allowed to pick land for power level reasons. IMHO this rules out the BW version.
Nobody seems to object to the 1BW version and it is better than Coersion after all.

[Matt]

Incidentally, I am fine with nonland BW.

[Matt]

So, do we want BW+nonland or 1BW and any card?

Also, name? The name should be in the BW flavor, which is "using order for selfish gain." The aspect to play up should be, "I'm more powerful than you, so it is just and right that I am your master and you should willingly submit yourself to me."

[dandan]

The aspect to play up should be, "I'm more powerful than you, so it is just and right that I am your master and you should willingly submit yourself to me."

You soooooooooooo don't want to go down that route with the mindset of the CCF!!

My vote still goes to {W} but if you want it 'cheaper' couldn't we make it {B/W} as that is slightly more Black and by implication less White.
At {W} we all agree it couldn't hit any card for power level reasons. However making it non-land goes against all previous cards and implied B/W combinations (say Coersion+Tithe for example).

We could also make it {W} with kicker but for some reason that doesn't appeal to me at all.

[Jacob Orlove]

As a general rule, Kicker should be avoided if there is literally any other alternative, because kicker is so absurdly broad and generic.

[Anusien]

So, do we want BW+nonland or 1BW and any card?

Also, name? The name should be in the BW flavor, which is "using order for selfish gain." The aspect to play up should be, "I'm more powerful than you, so it is just and right that I am your master and you should willingly submit yourself to me."

Femdom?
Enslaved Education
Hit the Books
Torturous Learning
Mind Leak
Steal Knowledge
Mind Raid
Brainleech
Metroid

Why is this white again?