GWS Oath

[nataz]

Except this only pings once for free. Trike pings twice, and then can recycle itself. Either way, I'm not a fan of trike, and I'm not really a fan of this new card either.

On another note, what do you guys think of the U/W "fish" deck that kird ape played last SCG? Chlalice and Null rod in a aggro control shell may be a strong combonation, possibly even stronger then chalice duress? It's true, you would lose tops AND duress to this config, but you would gain the almost (stupid brainstorm) complete freedom of setting chalice for 1 against basicly anything  you wanted.
 

[Machinus]

It's not good for an Oath deck that is trying to win quickly, and abuse tempo. However, it is very good with brainstorm and other draw spells.

[Smmenen]

mystical tutor for duress? that seems like a seriously subpar play. I highly question m-tutor in oath at all.

crop rotation is awesome. I HATE wasting a land that gets cropped in response.

You really must hate that because I've never seen you use caps

[forests failed you]

I'm not sure that the Izzet Dragon is a strong choice for Oath.  In particular he doesn't have haste, which is a problem.  Seconly, he seems better suited as a control card.  Once Oath puts its guys down onto the table, it really doesn't need to draw a bunch more cards, as it is already set up.  In fact drawing cards, could draw you one of your big guys that you were looking to Oath up. 

[Tha Gunslinga]

Mystical for Duress is subpar, yes, but it can also win games when you absolutely NEED to know if they have a counter, or have to grab their removal before you Oath.  Mystical is basically an auto-include, because it's in your primary color and it gets Time Walk, and you can play it after you've resolved the Oath trigger but before you draw.

[pyr0ma5ta]

The Trike is good, yes, but it also doesn't do anything under Null Rod.  The dragon still can ping a welder or shaman out of the way when you draw, which is nice.

[Moxlotus]

You can't tinker the dragon into play.  It is also vulnerable to StP, bounce, and Duplicant.

[NaNaKy3k]

You can't tinker the dragon into play.  It is also vulnerable to StP, bounce, and Duplicant.

True for sure, if you have been able to activate oath you dont need draw, Triskelion uses to be better, also it is very usefull in the mirror

Imo, imperial seal is a strong choice, i´ll cut one sensei for it, yes is sorcery and that sux, but it has worked very well for me, give it a chance. Sometimes focers you to search  for sea and is killed by wasteland, but in other cases Imperial Seal does what Gws need, search for oath and make it resolve

Also, darkblast used to be a weak choice, to kill welder you already have triskelion and ground seal, what more you need¿? Pithing needle will be better, but not really needed, the pairing agains Cs is favorable, and agains Stax I rather have more oxidizes in my Sb  than Drakblasts

[cherub_daemon]

This may be the deck out there that could benefit the most from running Shattered Dreams in the board for Duress 5-?. (So you don't have to look it up, Shattered Dreams is Duress that can only hit artifacts.)

It grabs Chalice from whoever, some of Stax's more evil tricks, Belcher, Slaver, Uba, and steals a small but measureable amount of thunder from storm combo. It seems like in certain metas, it could be a better answer out of the board than the Chalice.

No way to know without testing it, however, how much you want an extra Duress-like effect.

[NaNaKy3k]

Shattered Dreams are awfull, you dont need remove a "artifact", you need remove the counterwall from slaver, so taking away the mindslaver or random triskelion is not needed. Against Stax sux, in game 2 you side out your duress, and Shattered is weaker, you side out duress beacouse search for nonbasic land is a pain in the stax matchup. Also, this deck is based on tempo, and shattered doesn´t give tempo, oxidize can be played anytime, and kills something that is in play, wich shattered doesn´t.

[Komatteru]

Putting a Belcher in the yard is not such a great idea when Belcher plays 4 Welders.  Making your opponent's win condition cost 4 less mana and uncounterable should not be on your list of things to do in that matchup.

Same goes for Slaver.  Being forced to choose Pentavus or Mindslaver is not so good when your opponent had no TfK.

[sa17dk]

Does anyone have any insight to offer for the card Muddle the Mixture? I've seen quite a few lists with 2 of these maindeck, but I'm not really sure if theyre worth it aside from the mirror. On the plus side, it can get you Time Walk, but other than that the only cards it nets you are Impulses (which are used to get Oath in the first place) and Demonic Tutor. Right now I'm testing them over the two Sensei slots since my meta has a good amount of Fish decks which all pack Null Rods. I'll try goldfishing with them to see if they help at all, but I would like to see other opinions on the card.


Edit: I apologize for totally missing that. I'm still curious as to other peoples' experiences with this card.

[froz3nn]

@ Muddle the Mixture

Sorcery speed seemed too bad for us in testing.  I always wanted a Mana Leak or an Impulse instead.

reading is tech

[Ebinsugewa]

What would you sideboard for a completely random metagame? I have really no idea what will show up because we haven't played Vintage in this area for a very long time. So what are general answers for Oath if even Tog, Belcher, or Fish may show up in numbers?

[LizardCZ]

I have been playing with two Muddle the Mixture in the maindeck since the card was released, and I like it a lot. It's really weak versus Workshop decks, where it's almost a dead card, but versus control decks is strong.

It's also another tutor for that Time Walk to "win right now". I have done that shit a lot of times: drop an Oath and Time Walk, then Oath something and tutor Time Walk, then wipe your opponent out of the game.

Muddle the Mixture also gives you a bit of flexibility. You can pack a few silver bullets, like Balance and Null Rod and tutor for them if needed.

[Moxlotus]

It costs UU--that is enough to not run it because you shouldn't be able to cast it on turn 2 since you should be laying a waste or playing a land if your first one got wasted.  After that it becomes a 1UU sorcery speed tutor that doesn't find Duress, Force, Orchard, or Waste--all common tutor targets.  I guess it would be ok against control, but I'd play Imperial Seal before Muddle.  Even against control, spending mainphase 1UU would suck.

[LizardCZ]

It costs UU--that is enough to not run it because you shouldn't be able to cast it on turn 2 since you should be laying a waste or playing a land if your first one got wasted.

If you are facing a deck that packs Wasteland, this card is not useful as a counterspell; not for them preventing you from reaching UU, but for them not having spells to be targeted with this.
Versus Stacks decks, this is just a bad tutor. Versus fish, it's mostly a tutor for your win that can counter a Swords here and a FoW there.

Playing a Wasteland on second turn is ok, but it's not the best play in every situation, and you won't have a waste to play every second turn. Decks with basics and fetch will play those first if they are able, and if they do, the best you can do is drop a land that give you colored mana. I understand playing a Wasteland if you have multiples in hand but, if that's not the case, I don't understand why would you want to give up the possibility to play more than one spell in the same turn.
Also, wasteland shouldn't be played before you resolve a threat unless you are mana flooded. If you resolved a first turn Oath, a second turn wasteland may be your best play, aside from Time Walk. If you don't have an Oath, you need to spend resources on searching for it, that means you need mana to play tutors, Brainstorm, Impulse and activating the Top.

Taping out on your main phase to play transmute can be a pain in the ass. However, transmute cannot be countered. If you think you are "safe", you can transmute an Oath in your second turn and drop it on the third, with two mana untaped to answer with Mana Leak. That's slow as hell, but at least now you have an Oath in play and not whatever card sitting on your hand.

After that it becomes a 1UU sorcery speed tutor that doesn't find Duress, Force, Orchard, or Waste--all common tutor targets.  I guess it would be ok against control, but I'd play Imperial Seal before Muddle.  Even against control, spending mainphase 1UU would suck.

It finds Oath and Time Walk, that's enough for me. It can also find a Demonic Tutor if you are so desperate.


I'm not saying that every Oath list should pack a pair of Muddle the Mixture, I'm only saying it's another card that is useful enough to be played in certain metagames. I would ever play it in a control infested metagame, and I doubt I would do so if there are lots of workshops decks.

[Moxlotus]

Also, wasteland shouldn't be played before you resolve a threat unless you are mana flooded.

This is the worst.advice.ever for Oath players.  You will lose playing like this.  You need to disrupt your opponent while trying to find your Oath.  That is the main point of Duress too-it harasses the opponent long enough to stop them from killing you while you find Oath.  I'd play a waste on turn 2,3,4 if I could assuming I had a mox.  You should have your 2 mana to play Impulse/BS/Top, but you need to stop stunt your opponent's mana development too.  Waste+search is a better turn 2 move than 2 search. 

Against fish you won't be countering anything because you probably won't have UU open against their wastes.  You won't have 1UU mainphase either most of the time.  There are much better things to run instead.

I don't even know what you'd cut from the deck to play it in a control heavy meta.  The other cards in the deck are just better.  I'd play Chalice in a control heavy meta over Muddle.  I really don't know what people would cut in the deck for the card without turning it into the Dutch control version.

[P_f]

Hey. I'm wondering how you deal with resolved tinkers without any bounce at all. Hope you already dropped an oath and race the colossus? What if the tinker target was platinum angel?

[Moxlotus]

It isn't hard to add a bounce spell-just cut something random.  Also-how do other decks deal with an early Tinker?  They race, bounce or die.  The best way is to try to prevent tinker from happening.  I'm not going to pretend that I can prevent tinker all the time-but no deck can stop random brokeness from happening.

[NaNaKy3k]

You have Fow, Chalizes as well, Duress, and if your oponent goes broken, you can just play oath and find time walk as well.
If you maindeck some bouncer like Rushing, you have like 4 Tutors and all the draw

[SiegeX]

Moxlotus,

Would it be possible for you either repost, or update your current desk list+side board.  Im going to be playing in a local Vintage Tournament in about 3 weeks for a Mox and Im fairly certain Oath is the deck of choice, and I particularly like the GWS build, an updated list would be appreciated.

Also a few comments and questions.  I dont know what my local meta is like (this will be my first vintage tournament) but I do know from looking at results from nearby tournaments in the Northern California area that Oath is very previlent.  In fact one tournament had like 6 oath in the T8.  Obviously if its like this here, the mirror match will be key to win.  Im curious why people are touting spawning pit rather than alter of dimensia.  Unless im mistaken, you would never want to remove the counters off a spawning pit to creatre a token creature because that then gives your opp to use oath.  So really its just the "sac a creature" part that is used.  Well if thats the case, alter of dimensia does the same thing for the sama CMC but it actually has an ability which hurts the opp (albeit very small).

My second question regarding the mirror is the use of Keiga, The Tide Star for *both* creatures post-sideboard.  Comments on that?  Thanks

[Moxlotus]

I can say that the maindeck is essentially the same.  I can't give away the whole SB since we have a Ruby, Lotus, Beta Ruby, and SCG Richmond X2 tournaments in the next 5 weeks

I don't like playing SB cards that only come in for one match like Pit and Altar.  I'd rather run something more utilitarian.  Crucible and Life are both options to help win the Orchard War.  Going ultra aggro and using Personal Tutor and/or Imperial Seal for Tinker can help with that route too if you want.  However, I'd run the Pit you you really want to run any.  You may be able to randomly remove like 5-6 guys EOT and attack FTW with help from a Time Walk or them damaging themselves.  That said, I still don't like it.  Just make sure you have Oxidizes post-board to blow up opponent's Pits.

I don't see any advantage of using keiga.  Trike is also good against Slaver and Fish.  Like I said-we run cards that are versatile and come in against lots of matches. 

[CrashTest]

I played GWS Oath at Waterbury, just missing top 16 day 1 and 12th day 2. If I knew the deck a litte bit better, I am sure I could of avoided the 1 loss each day in order to t8, so it is no fault of the deck. My maindeck was GWS card for card, but I added 2 bounce in the SB over 2 Annuls.

      I thought the deck overall was very strong, much stronger than I expected it to be. Oxidize and Rushing River were amazing vs stax after I SBed in, because they can get rid of pesky things like Chalice for 2.

      The 2x maindeck Sensei Divining Tops were only mediocre for the most part. They were helpful in the midgame, but early game I wanted to brainstorm or impulse with the mana. I'm not sure, but perhaps they can be cut for some metagame cards like Pithing Needle or even Null Rod.
     

[Moxlotus]

Tops are usually for after you have exhausted your Impulses or are just good 1-drops that you can sink extra mana into.  One of Oath's faults was after it exhausted its Impulses/BS, it sat there and whacked off while your opponent beat the hell out of you.  Top was a way to avoid this if you haven't found both Oath and Orchard by turn 3-4 or so.

[CrashTest]

The deck was very consistent for the most part, but when I did lose a game, it was because I just could not find Oath in time. One game I kept a hand with 3 brainstorms, a Mana leak, a FoW, and a wasteland. I just could not find Oath that game, even after the 3 Brainstorms and 2 impulses- not even a tutor!

     Aside from that bad luck, most of the time you can plop Oath down fairly consistently due to the large amount of search in the deck.

        Do you think Tops definitely deserves those two spots maindeck? What would you repalce it with?

[Moxlotus]

The deck was very consistent for the most part, but when I did lose a game, it was because I just could not find Oath in time. One game I kept a hand with 3 brainstorms, a Mana leak, a FoW, and a wasteland. I just could not find Oath that game, even after the 3 Brainstorms and 2 impulses- not even a tutor!

     Aside from that bad luck, most of the time you can plop Oath down fairly consistently due to the large amount of search in the deck.

        Do you think Tops definitely deserves those two spots maindeck? What would you repalce it with?

I don't see myself replacing Tops anytime soon for reasons that you already said.  Oath loses when it can't find Oath.  Top is a way to get repeated brainstorms out of one card.  Yea, sometimes no matter what you do you can't find an Oath or a tutor.  Shit happens.

[CrashTest]

Yeah, I may keep it in, especially considering I just got foils.

  Here's a related question concering an Orchard rules issue:

Ok, so here's the situation:

     I have 2 lands open at my opponent's end of turn. One is an orchard, the other a wasteland. He has a spawing pit in play, my oath on the board with no creatures.

          Can I tap my orchard, get the mana, and put the creature token on the stack?

       I'd do this because then I can echoing truth his spawning pit before the token is technically in play for him to sac, allowing me to Oath.

[pyr0ma5ta]

I believe orchard is triggered.  Yes, your situation works.  Top is amazing in Oath, and acts as Brainstorm/Impulse/Ancestral #8 million.

[Gekoratel]

The only problem I have with the deck is the lack of sb options in the mirror match.  The general consensus from what I've heard is to bring in Trikes for the other creatures so that when you Oath you don't lose the orchard war.  Then you also take out 2 Oaths for the Tinker/Colussus Plan.  The trikes only really help when you've already established an advantageous board position and Colussus can still get raced by a traditional oath draw.  I know you don't want to give out tech but I can't wait to see what the new board looks like.  I am pretty sure that Annul is going to get the axe because that card is so much worse than oxidize.

My current board for GWS Oath
1 Rushing River - deal with random stuff like Plat Angel, Blood Moon + decent in mirror
2 Triskelion - Mirror/Fish
2 Choke - Gifts/CS
3 Ground Seal - CS/UbaStax (not 100% sure this is correct)
3 Arcane Lab - I always face at least 2 combo decks per tourney and without these I would have a difficult time winning games 2-3
4 Oxidize - Dropped all annuls and increased oxidize count by 1