GWS Oath

[nataz]

The only problem I have with the deck is the lack of sb options in the mirror match.

I SB the following

- 3 Oath
- 3 Chalice

+ 2 LFTL
+1 Crop Rotation (I'm currently running Balance in its place MD)
+1 Tinker
+1 DSC
+1 Rushing River

I keep one oath in so that I can actual play one if I need to, and I keep one Chalice b/c uba late game you can set it to 3 against rushing river if you are wining.

LFTL + Crop Rotation are the nod to the mirror match, which I believe is enough of a pain to warrent sp. SB slots.

BTW:
Oxidize is better then Annul, except when you expect SOR/Dup. That being said, I don't run Annul either (although I really should have at the last waterbury!)

BTW X2

I still HATE choke with a passion b/c it almost never seems to work right. Gifts is mostly just too fast for a 3cc answer. I would take REB over choke almost every single time except that its in conflict with my favorite Chalice target v. Drain.dec, 1. So I dunno, jury is still out on that for me. 

[Gekoratel]

I like the Life from the Loam strategy because it seems like it will also be useful in other matchups.  I would be interested in seeing what your full sideboard looks like so I could analyze the differences and then make some judgment calls on my current sb.

Also do you like Chalice over Mana Leak because I prefer to be able to protect by Oaths rather than slightly disrupt my opponent but then again I live in the NE where drains are rampant.  But it seems like people here are finally realizing that Stax is good.

[Moxlotus]

Crucible is pretty darn good in the mirror.  It's also really nice against Stax.

Our super secret Oath mirror tech will be revealed at SCG Richmond.

[Komatteru]

Our super secret Oath mirror tech will be revealed at SCG Richmond.

If it's better than Trike, I'm looking forward to it!

[CrashTest]

I went 3-1 vs stax at waterbury, I don't think the Oath vs stax matchup is too bad. Most of the time, if I could stop one of their early game threats with either duress or FoW, and could get Oath down in time, I could easily race them. The games I lost was when they would get trinisphere down or I would not find Oath in time.

    This is my SB:

2x Choke - These won me 2 games vs Gifts, but you do have to be careful..because sometimes you end up with 4 islands in play too.
3x Oxidize - These were great, but I would not go to 4. 3 seems to be the good number to have vs stax.
2x Triskelion - I did not play vs the Oath mirror except in side events, so I'm not sure how useful these were
1x Tinker- Didn't really use much
1x Darksteel Colossus- I sbed him in vs someone with MAINDECK Karakas!
3x Ground Seal - I did not get to use these much, but are good vs welders generally
1 Rushing River- Definitely great, these bounce spells won me 2-3 games and saved me vs chalice vs 2 and other FING NUTZ
1 Echoing Truth-ditto, but River is better I think, since you can return 2 different threats
1x last random slot, I need to find a better card since I removed the Annuls from the board

[scutakicker]

I played the GWS Oath list at Appleton and did pretty well, going 4-1-1 in swiss to take 6th. (Results: http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=285938) Tops are amazing, don't ever cut them. I did make some changes and wanted to see what people thought of them.

I cut the blessing in order to run the full set of Razia, Spirit, Akroma. Partially I did this to deal with Swords/Apprentice/Rushing River from Fish and partially to allow me to keep a good opening hand that happened to have a creature in it. There was one time that I got decked through misplaying it, but with 3 guys to Oath into there was generally a lot of my library left. The surprise of having a third guy also won me a game when someone thought they had another turn. I wouldn't say its the best, but it's definitely something I'll be testing out. The one big drawback was that twice I cast Timewalk for tempo advantage before I oathed. Without Blessing I had no way to recycle it into my library to tutor for it during my upkeep and swing for the win.

I ran one maindeck Rushing River. I don't think it specifically won me any games, but I was always happy to draw it and tutored for it several times. I also ran Imperial Seal and despite its multiple drawbacks appreciated having the extra tutor. I dropped Crop Rotation--that was a mistake as there were several times I needed to find an Orchard quickly and couldn't, especially in the mirror.

With the Crop Rotation back in, I'm considering cutting 2 lands (I was at 61 cards so -2 lands, +CR would be 60). This would probably be 1 Wasteland and 1 City. I would cut an Island but with 4 fetches and 3 fetchable lands I imagine I'd be hitting dead fetches.

My 2 losses (1 in swiss, 1 in top 8) were both in a mirror match that was basically an Orchard war. His sideboard Darkblast was amazing against me. Sideboard MVPs for me were Rushing River and Tinker/DSC. Pyroclasm against Fish was also pretty good but probably too narrow. I probably should have run a full set of Oxidizes as well as a Woodripper in the board.

Thoughts?

[Moxlotus]

I wouldn't run less than 24 mana.  I hate getting screwed by Stax.  I've tried the 3 creature idea before and got decked twice in the same tournament.  The extra guy was nice, but the inability to reshuffle Time Walk is the big reason I hate it.  I'm glad you think that crop rotation is needed-I couldn't agree more.

I personally think Woodripper is completely pointless.  I'd rather just Oath up Akroma/Razia and beat face

[nataz]

Our super secret Oath mirror tech will be revealed at SCG Richmond.

SB to GWS combo!

[Moxlotus]

It's true.  We only use so many cards-we just switch the SB with the maindeck sometimes

[nataz]

@ chalice vs. Leak

I think I'd want chalice over leak anywhere I expect shit tons of drains, but not much stax. Chalice is useless in the stax match-up, while Leak can be critical in hitting the first turn threat in the stax match-up. Vs. stax, you are pretty much playing "control-combo" by making their first 1-2 plays irrelevant with oxidize, FOW, and Leak, while waiting for an opening for a quick orchard -> oath -> go (or tinker -> DSC -> go). 

Conversly, the plan against drain .dec is mana denial => tempo, which buys time for the winz. Leak means no turn two play, OR no turn two waste, which is frown town. Play the beat down, cause if you try and play control you most likely wont win. Plus, chalice for 1 is amazing vs most Drain based decks (different reasons in Gifts v. CS, but what/ev). The best thing about chalice is that it allows for a turn 1 -> duress, and turn 2 -> waste while still disrupting the opponent.   

oh, and as an added aside, the oxidize plan suXs against non-traditional (read:5-color) stax, so SB appropriatly. You so lose the SB'ing war (quote flores!) when they go to cast Ray of Revelation and you sit there looking stupid with oxidize in your hand. I'm still not sure how to deal with this problem, oh vell.

oh, and as a 2x added aside, LFTL isnt really that good in the Stax match-up. Its super mana intensive, and I'd rather just hold my mana for counters + oxidize. Easiest thing to do is throw out wastes + islands, and hold back the trop/orchards until you are actualy holding the oxidize/think you are gonna need it. Oxidize and Oath are pretty reactive (you only want to/can cast them durring specific moments), so you shouldn't be *that* worried about wasteland.   

@ Crop Rotation v. Balance v. Bounce
 
Crop is hott, not gonna lie. It grabs strip mine v. control, out tempo's wasteland in stax, and of course lets you run 5 orchard v. any deck that doesnt really run the critters.

Heres the thing though, I like having a panic button. I was worried about both meddling mage and that blue tappy guy (played in MD winz, which I never even saw there), not to mention DSC which is run in like every gifts lits. To be fair, fear of red aggro also worried me a little, and TMWA can be a pain to play against b/c raceing can be hard with genju+factory+burn.

I also like being able to armageddon a control players mana base if the game goes late, or MindTwist their hand of hate after I've droped an oath. Control always has more land/more cards in hand then you, and its nice being able to deal with it if the game goes long. 

Bounce is meh. Red aggro can REB it, and the only MD hate card it deals with that balance does not is chalice in a deck with workshop (which until last week was unheard of in NE). SB is a different story with varried amounts of hate coming in like EPlague, Goblin Bombardment, and Spawing pit, and a WS player now knows what to put chalice on. But MD, id rather just have the raw power of blance, or the tricky-ness of crop.   

BTW,
Hola to CrashTest! I was the guy w/oath you split with in the side event. gogo 17 bucks!

[Gekoratel]

I suppose your right that chalice is nice against drain decks due to the disruption that it offers but for the cost of that added disruption you are removing your ability to protect Oaths.  I could just play GWS different then a lot of people but I really don't like playing my Oaths without any kind of protection.  I much prefer to Duress first then cast it, or play it with Force/Leak backup.  I'm not the biggest fan of using Mana Leak to disrupt my opponent but I like it a lot while protecting my Oaths.  Also if Chalice is bad in the Oath and Stax matchup isn't that a large enough portion of the field to warrant running Mana Leak over Chalice.  If I get enough time before the next big tourney maybe I'll give the chalices a spin and see if I like them enough to run them over Leaks but currently it doesn't seem like it.

[Moxlotus]

Most 5 color Stax builds don't have many Welders.  We always boarded in Tinker-DSC to help deal with the problem of Ray.

Also, I know I'm going to catch hell for this, but in all the testing I've done with workshops since Kevin Cron reminded us Stax is still viable after Trinisphere's restriction, if you're running Tangle Wires you shouldn't be losing to Oath.  It's not a problem matchup.  They are giving you permanents, which is all the go-ahead you need to go full steam and crush their permanent-light deck.  In addition, most traditional stax maindecks pack maindeck Seal of Cleansing and occasionally even Swords to Plowshares, while most Uba Stax pack multiple maindeck Duplicant (albeit without the benefit of having Tangle Wire as well)

This was in another thread, but it has a better place here.  This is flat out wrong.  While it is true that 5-color Stax is a bigger problem than Uba, it is not a bad matchup.  It is 50/50 preboard (largely dependant on who goes first) and favorable post-board-leading to a 50/50 match if you lose the coin flip and a favorable match if you win it.  This was done after 40 preboard games (each won 20, 17 of each win was after going first with a lot of "if i went first I woulda won") and I don't remember how many postboard games.  Much of the testing was against Matt Morrison, who took Cron Stax to a 2nd place last July at SCG chicago so he is adapt with the deck.

I will admit the match will be slighly unfavorable/even if Cron Stax has 4 Welders, but not many do if they are playing with colored goodness like Seal. 

Tangle Wires are a huge pain in the ass, but if they can fit in Tangles, then they can't have 4 Chalice and 4 Welder.  Its basically switching annoyances with other annoyances so the net result is still the same.

[nataz]

Most 5 color Stax builds don't have many Welders. We always boarded in Tinker-DSC to help deal with the problem of Ray.

yea, I did that too, but I just got screwed playing against travis w/ 5 color stax + welders + tangle wires + spheres + post board STP, Ray, and Seal. *sigh*

Also if Chalice is bad in the Oath and Stax matchup isn't that a large enough portion of the field to warrant running Mana Leak over Chalice.

Well, pre-this waterbury, there wasn't exactly tons of Oath and Stax in NE. (or at least that was the perception). Now, post waterbury, I have no idea what to expect. Seriously, have you seen that top 8? I think its only gonna get weirder next month. I think with more unpredictability Oath will have to stop playing chalices altogether, although I'm not convinced that leak is the answer.

[CrashTest]

I didn't have too much of a problem vs uba or 5c stax playing Oath. Most of the time, if I could stop one or two of their early threats, I could race them with Oath.

        Mana Leaks were very good. I wouldn't switch them for Chalice.

[nataz]

I played them day 2, the same day I lost to Travis. I've gone back and forth on the leaks, and I still don't particularly love them for the reasons above. As of right now I've tested Daze, Leak, MisD, Null Rod, and pithing needle in those slots, and had different amounts of sucess with each.

I've also fiddled around a little with adding Yawgmoths Will, and switching out Blessing for Krosan Rec with moderate results, similar to the will/krosan list posted on SCG a while ago.

The problem I have with chalice is a lot of Gifts decks are basically pre-boarded against it with multiple MD artifact bounce spells, which are easy to pay for if you didnt get a really early chalice. Null Rod is obviously amazing vs Gifts, but it has the same problem that Leak has, it costs 2 mana and a full turn.

I tried adding null rods with muddle the mixture, but UU is impossible early if you are wasting, and UU2 during your mainphase for a null rod is slow. Combine that with the fact that we dont even use all the tutors available, AND it doesn't do anything in the stax matchup (kinda sorta) I drooped that too.

I even tried a MD winz version a month ago at the last myriad before waterbury, with 3 Null Rods and 4 chalice, but that runs in to the problem of threat density. Meandeck winz can get away with it because every turn they drop 1-2 threats. Oath really only has 4-5 cards that actually apply pressure to the board, and while you compress your kill into only a few turns, there is absolutely no clock until you actually get and oath to stick. 

One of the changes that I have made that I do like is the removal of 1 duress, and the addition of 1 pithing needle. To facilitate finding the needle I also added an Imp Seal over mystical. Pithing Needle is pretty versatile, and at worst names polluted delta (I'm running a set Flooded Strand right now because its less common).

There are about a billion options you can put into an aggro control build of oath, and I suggest people who are interested in the deck at least try out the obvious different card selections and pick a disruption/creature/search package that fits their meta the best.

That being said, just about anyone who knows me  can attest to the amount of work I've put into the deck over the past 4 months. I've played with and changed everything imaginable from disruption, to kill conditions, to mana base, to draw. I've played it at 2 different Waterbury, and multiple NE events. I think GWS did an amazing job with the shell, and even after all of my testing and tweaking, the best I could do was have my final version Day 1 of waterbury be only 2 cards off their latest list.

[CrashTest]

I don't think Imperial Seals work in this Oath. Mystical Tutor is just much better, because you can find Time Walk or at worst an Ancestral Recall. They are also blue and can pitch to FoW as well as be cast easier.

      Mana Leaks are definitely strong, because they can help you get Oath in play with counter backup if you don't have FoW as early as turn 3 with a mox and 3 land. They can also help counter turn 1 threats, like smokestack or trinisphere, if you go first and lay down a mox. Chalice may stop their artifact mana, but they can still go workshop+trinisphere.

[sa17dk]

I apologize to the mods if I bumped an old thread.


I have a question for those using the Chalice versions. How many blue cards do you run? Right now I've been switching out Mana Leaks for Chalices directly from the GWS list, but that would only leave me with 15 blue cards including Time Walk and Ancestral (which you wouldnt want to pitch either). So do you guys just plan on using force once? Or are there more blue cards in your decks? The most logical guess I had was to take out the 2 Tops in the Chalice version (since Chalice for 1 would make it useless if you draw if afterwards) and add 2 blue spells such as bounce or something.