vintage truths.list

[Komatteru]

The thing about most monocolor decks is that with duals and fetches, splashing for a second color isn't especially difficult.  If you're not already playing them, you gain a lot from just adding blue (Ancestral Recall and Time Walk, maybe Brainstorm) or black (VT, DT, ISeal, and Will).  Even a green splash can give you great cards such as Crop Rotation and Fastbond as well as utility board cards such as Oxidize and Naturalize.  More often than not, the benefits of just adding a few cards of a second color greatly outweigh the drawbacks.  Uba Stax is a different animal altogether.  The big think making Uba Stax monored is the 4 Barbarian Rings, which allow it to double up mana and removal spots for those Welders it has so many issues with.  Having 4 lands in your deck that only produce red petty much locks you to monored.

[rmn]

Absolute Truths:

1) Every Type 1 tournament which allows 5+ proxies and is played within the next few years will contain at least four Mishra's Workshops in the top 8.

2) Every optimum Type 1 deck contains at least one Mox.

3. When a good player casts Yawgmoth's Will, you should take that opportunity to bet on his victory.

4. Kobold-Clamp was never a good deck.

5. A deck which regularly attempts to win via Tendrils/Freeze should contain at least 6 cards which contain the word "Mox," and at least one which contains the word "Lotus."

6. For all real numbers x,y, |x+y|<=|x|+|y|.

7. A Vintage deck which contains more than 220 cards should contain 4 Battle of Wits.

8. A Vintage deck should not contain more than 62 cards.

9. Despite the fact that the word has been seamlessly integrated into my vocabulary, "Vintage" is not as good a name as "Type 1."

10. A creature which has no ability text sucks in Type 1, unless its power is 10 or greater.

11. Obliterate should not be played in Keeper.

I can think of more, and maybe if I get bored later I will post them, but for now I have to go.

Hopefully you have learned something.

[Buttons]

Having 4 lands in your deck that only produce red petty much locks you to monored.

UbaStax runs 4 Barbarian Ring, 3 Mountain for a total of 7 red mana sources.
007 Stax runs 4 Taiga, 3 Barbarian Ring for a total of 7 red mana sources.

007 because of fastBOND.

EDIT:

Ubastax can run a second color - green, because the addition is only two cards of a different color.  SB options are next to nothing, as I wouldn't put oxidize OR naturalize in, because that's too many green cards for too little green mana, although I would love to have naturalize against Oath.

Topdecked Crop Rotation saved me game 3 today against FCG - I went to go get a Strip, stripped his mountain, and he only had two goblin piledrivers left (I was at 1 life, with two soot counters on Stax, and no duplicants, welders, or shamans.)  I had already used up my THREE B-rings, and wasn't finding a crucible for the life of me.

[forests failed you]

I don't know if mono-coloured decks being sub-optimal is true at all.  Uba stax is pretty mono, and it handles itself quite well.  Furthermore, monoU was quite the deck back in the day. 

I don't think that chalice deserves to be on the list of format defining cards.  Sure it is important.  But it is almost nothing without the moxen and fast mana that the other cards (drain. shop) create.  Hence its non-existence in any other format.  Chalice is only important because the other cards are important.  Removing chalice doesn't make the other cards less powerfull, but remove the accelerants and chalice ceases to be important or defining at all.

Oh really?  If this is true than why does Fish still exist, because it runs four Force of Will?  Wrong.  The reason is that Chalice of the Void is a card that is powerful enough to design an entire deck around.  BTW I wasn't talking about Chalice in relation to Stax, I was talking about Chalice in relation to Agro Tempo decks.

[vroman]

RULE: blue decks should run time walk.

5C or UR stax should run time walk. having lands that tap for 3 times more than your opponent's lands means that yes, your untap step is important. having time based lock components (smokestack) means that your upkeep step is important. crushing ppl w Karn armies means the attack step is worth repeating as well.
although Im much less experienced w the archetype, I cant help think combo should run walk as well. if for no other reason than siding in negators which still catches ppl by surprise. walk is always good in aggro.

RULE: non-workshop based mono-colored decks are bad

if the deck is primarily colored spells, and those are all one color, the deck has major weaknesses. with access to the entire vintage card pool, the color pie gets fairly muddy, but there are still some strict absences of abilities in various colors. smokestack is the only colorless universal problem remover. until they unban chaos orb, and that still loses to null rod.

RULE: Yawg will should be run in every black deck

even if you only get to replay a few moxes and a draw spell, that can win you the permanent race against stax, or the card advantage race against control.
Play this card! play it now, before smennen bans it!

RULE: Smaller decks are more focused, consistent and strictly better than larger decks. if there was a card with the ability "Cycling 0", every deck would play 4, regardless of what else it did, bc that would be nearly the equivalent of playing a 56 card deck. If there is a card that every single deck in a given format plays the maximum quantity of, that card is always banned or restricted. Thus logically even an otherwise useless free cycler would necesarily be restricted.

RULE: darkblast should be played main or side in every black deck

welder is the best creature in the format, and dblast is the most efficient removal of 1/1s yet printed. maintaining welder superiority or just eliminating the enemy's clutch utility piece, has never been easier.

[nataz]

RULE: Smaller decks are more focused, consistent and strictly better than larger decks. if there was a card with the ability "Cycling 0", every deck would play 4, regardless of what else it did, because that would be nearly the equivalent of playing a 56 card deck. If there is a card that every single deck in a given format plays the maximum quantity of, that card is always banned or restricted. Thus logically even an otherwise useless free cycler would necesarily be restricted.

This was my favorite quote from Vroman.

But, I do have a question on another idea you proposed.

RULE: non-workshop based mono-colored decks are bad
if the deck is primarily colored spells, and those are all one color, the deck has major weaknesses. with access to the entire vintage card pool, the color pie gets fairly muddy, but there are still some strict absences of abilities in various colors. smokestack is the only colorless universal problem remover. until they unban chaos orb, and that still loses to null rod.

Is UbaStax mono red because you play Workshop, or because you play workshop AND bazaar? In other words, is there an argument to be made that there mono-red stax will always be < then RX stax?

[Moxlotus]

There are 4 overall archetypes in Vintage:
Combo
Prison
aggro-control
control-combo

Pure aggro and pure control are dead.

[Mark_Story]

Oh really?  If this is true than why does Fish still exist, because it runs four Force of Will?  Wrong.  The reason is that Chalice of the Void is a card that is powerful enough to design an entire deck around.  BTW I wasn't talking about Chalice in relation to Stax, I was talking about Chalice in relation to Agro Tempo decks.

One of the reasons that chalice is such a tempo card in fish is because of what it stops when it is set with low charge counters.  Without moxen to be stopped chalice is highly ineffective in gaining tempo.  Play chalice in an unpowered environment and it becomes wholely unimpressive.  I'm not trying to say that chalice isn't important, becuase it does create some balance against power, but I don't feel that it has enough inherent power of its own.  Especially when compared to cards like drain, shop, and ritual, which define the format due to their raw power.

[JACO]

To be fair, any and all points can be disputed.

OK, well then let me take a minute to dispute a couple of these 'truths.'

1) Brainstorm + Fetch rates in the top 5 vintage draw engines .: Brainstorm should be considered in any blue based deck with fetchlands, or conversely fetchlands should be considered in any blue based deck with Brainstorm.

This is false, because Brainstorm is not a draw engine. While you can certainly improve your card quality, you do not increase your card count or hand size, so it is not drawing you any more cards than you already had. It is one of the best search engines, just like Demonic Tutor, Impulse, or Google.

1.) Any deck playing black should play with Yawgmoth's Will. This should replace another business card if necessary.

This is a patently false statement as well. Yawgmoth's Will does not hold its' weight in a number of decks with black, including 5C Stax, Dragon, and even non-Salvagers Oath, to cite a few examples. If you can't abuse it, it's probably not worth playing.

[Mordred]

Never be the guy saying, "Then my deck just crapped out on me."

[49 Cents]

Pure aggro and pure control are dead.

Last time I checked Goblins was pure aggro..

[nataz]

This is false, because Brainstorm is not a draw engine. While you can certainly improve your card quality, you do not increase your card count or hand size, so it is not drawing you any more cards than you already had. It is one of the best search engines, just like Demonic Tutor, Impulse, or Google

correct, I'm surprised I missed that, and that no one else pointed it out before you. That being said, if replace draw with search, or ADD the word search so that the statement reads,

1) Brainstorm + Fetch rates in the top 5 vintage draw/search engines .: Brainstorm should be considered in any blue based deck with fetchlands, or conversely fetchlands should be considered in any blue based deck with Brainstorm.

would it be correct?

and as for black and will, I would say dragon is an exception to the rule, and could even be a rule unto itself. However, I would note, eastman's build of CA used will effectively, with similar draw engines, and a similar kill.

VROman has already said his piece about 5Color Stax and Will, and I think that his post serves to point out that will and 5color stax is hardly as cut and dry as you make it.

As for oath, There was at least one version floating around (TWL) that used will, along with a number of hybrid combo-versions above and beyond salvagers. Again, I think GWS angel oath w/ chalices is the exception to the rule.

I'm glad you took the time to point out my mistake, but I think it's too bad that you couldn't contribute something of your own to the thread. Do you really have no general rules on deckbuilding/playing? Does your style of play, and design of decks really exist in a free form vacuum?

Do debate the finer points of will in a deck with black is fine, but thats not really the purpose of the thread. I'm looking for general truth (or rules or idea, etc.) that are part of vintage. Is yawgmoths will really in that much debate?

I think there are some very talented people whose post on this thread go entirely against the spirit of what I am trying to do. Is it really that hard to read?

 Â 

 

[JACO]

1) Brainstorm + Fetch rates in the top 5 vintage draw/search engines .: Brainstorm should be considered in any blue based deck with fetchlands, or conversely fetchlands should be considered in any blue based deck with Brainstorm.

would it be correct?

Take out draw and I would certainly consider that to be true. Brainstorms + Fetchlands should always be considered, but not necessarily automatically included.

I'm glad you took the time to point out my mistake, but I think it's too bad that you couldn't contribute something of your own to the thread. Do you really have no general rules on deckbuilding/playing? Does your style of play, and design of decks really exist in a free form vacuum?

I knew I would probably look like an ass for my post, but I don't have time to flesh out anything I would like to contribute.

My only general 'truth' or 'rule' about Vintage is that it is constantly changing, so I have to be constantly changing. Playing the same thing you played 6 months ago will only get your ass kicked.

[The Atog Lord]

Well, Nataz, let's see what you're asking for.

Could it be a list of things that are _always_ true? Well, not likely. Even the rules are only sometimes true. I can think of a half dozen ways to break the rule that says the game ends when a player reaches zero life. And the rule about proxies not being allowed is often broken at Type One tournaments without any actual part of the game making it so. So clearly, you aren't asking for things that are _always_ true.

That leads us to things that are _never_ true. But that's just an inversion of _always_ true, which we know we can't have. I bet there was once some clever perosn who thought that no type one deck would ever run exactly four Goblins, or that no type one deck would ever replace Gaea's Blessing with Yawgmoth's Will. But there are cirucmstances and new cards that make us evuate old concepts and ideas. If we barricade ourselves behind absolute ideas in Vintage, then we are making our minds less flexible and less able to adapt to change.

So, since you're not asking us for things that are either always or never true, you must want us to list things that are sometimes true. OK, I can do that.

Some decks should run Yawgmoth's Will.
Some decks should run Tinker.
A nonempty set of decks should not, as currently envisioned, run Tarpan.
Some decks should refrain from running Dragon Engine, at least until a change in the cardpool causes us to reevaluate Dragon Engine.

How's that?

[Razvan]

2) Blue based decks should play both Ancestral Recall and Time Walk. .: should be included even at the expense of another possible "business" card.

Time Walk is suboptimal at converting cards in hand to more cards, mana, and storm.  Unless untap/attack phases are useful, you should not play it.  For many decks, this is not the case.

First turn: Blue based Land, Single Non-blue mox. I have had this opening more times than I can recall.

Time Walk is the best possible card you can play at that point. You will get double blue for drain, 3 mana for thirst/whatever. It's as optimal as they come.

You advance one turn in land. Even if JUST that, it's worth it. You get another chance to get dual-blue. Again, even that, it's worth it. Even if I just take it for control decks, this holds true.

I@n made mono-red goblins with time walk, did he not?

[Scoops666]

RULE: Smaller decks are more focused, consistent and strictly better than larger decks. if there was a card with the ability "Cycling 0", every deck would play 4, regardless of what else it did, because that would be nearly the equivalent of playing a 56 card deck. If there is a card that every single deck in a given format plays the maximum quantity of, that card is always banned or restricted. Thus logically even an otherwise useless free cycler would necesarily be restricted.

It basically exists. Urza's Bauble. 0 Cost artifact. Tap, Sac: Draw a card, look at 1 random card in your opponents hand. I know it gets shut off by Chalice for 0 and null rod, but I'm just sayin.
Bauble draws at the beginning of the next turn's upkeep.

[Scott_Limoges]

A deck must be able to execute a significant turn one play, with a high probability, to be competitive in vintage.

[Chamelet]

2 years and a half ago, Stephen Menendian wrote an article called "The Ten Principles Of Type One where it talks about ten "rules". I think we should try to make this new truths.list closer to principles rather than "Pithing Needle is a SB card" thing.

Principle # 1: Every deck uses Black Lotus and at least one Mox.
This is a rule. Period.

Principle #2: Fetchlands have fundamentally changed Type One.
I don't know how long you guys played, but mana bases will never be the same after Onslaught

Principle #3 (and perhaps the most important): Force of Will is the Glue that holds T1 together.
No doubts about that. It stays the same. FoW IS THE most important card in the format.

Principle #4: Unless you are planning on winning in the first few turns, you must have a way to deal with Library of Alexandria.
Yeah, this can be taken out. LoA is not the card it used to be...

Principle #5: Swords to Plowshares is the Best Targeted Removal Spell ever printed.
Again. True. Period. But that's just like the Needle being a sideboard card stuff. Not a principle, just a fact.

Principle #6: Blood Moon is Vintage's Best Hoser.
This is another one I guess should be changed. A best hoser depends on metagame, so it shouldn't be a principle.

Principle #7: Red Elemental Blast is the Best Sideboard Card ever printed.
Agreed. He says this because blue is the best color, which is also true. I mean a principle could be "You should alwalys have blue on your deck. If you don't, ask yourself if you really have a reason not to."

Principle #8: For the most part, Spells with a casting cost of four or more are unplayable unless they are Blue, Artifact, or have an Alternate Casting Cost.
True, True, True.

Principle #9: Hybrid Strategies are currently the most successful in Type One.
Stays the same 2 years after and will keep on that a long, long time.

Principle #10: Scour through the card pool. Find the technology to beat your local metagame. It's worth it.
This is more a tip than a principle. But what he meant is that Type 1 is NEVER EVER a format where there can be no innovation. He is also saying that Vintage is ALWAYS about metagame. Always. And that's a principle.

[nataz]

@ jaco,

I'm glad you pointed it out, it was a pretty glaring mistake.

@ shay,

No, thats not what I am asking, and you know that.

if you don't like the exercise, no one said you have to play.

[Hi-Val]

A nonempty set of decks should not, as currently envisioned, run Tarpan.

Rich, stick to playing newer formats, it's obvious you just don't get it. I've taken to running a Sacred Prey as Tarpan #5 in most builds I run these days, because 4 doesn't seem like enough. They block Lackey, trade with Welder and make storm combo work even harder than normal. They're also an efficient win condition.

Might I remind you that Tarpans were integral to the SB strategy of Draw7 as well.

[rmn]

The sole truth in Type 1 is that, no matter what somebody says, there will always be someone happy to provide an opposing opinion.  This thread is a waste of time and duplicates content found in numerous other threads.  This post might be deleted for lack of content, but I can't abide by people who waste time for no purpose.

So I reiterate the tone of my last post and suggest that this thread be turned into a humor thread.  Nobody, I notice, is arguing with my 11 absolute truths.  Speaking of which:

12. For every deck, there exists a creature which is better in that deck than Tarpan.

13. Ancestral Recall is NOT a "win more" card.  If you are playing blue, you DO want to see Ancestral in your opening hand.

14. There are no creatures for which you must tap more than one white mana to play which are good in competitive Type 1.  (Note that this disincludes Akroma, for which you do not have to tap white mana.)

15. Tinder Wall is the shiznit.

That is all.

[SpencerForHire]

Principle #8: For the most part, Spells with a casting cost of four or more are unplayable unless they are Blue, Artifact, or have an Alternate Casting Cost.
True, True, True.

Principle #8: Spells with a casting cost of four or more are unplayable unless they win you the game.
Truth.  The founding principle I used when I started playing.  First unpowered I played my own UB Sh*t deck before I knew TMD ever existed.  Fact or Fiction was about the biggest costing thing in the deck,  Shadowmage got my card advantage and FoW cleared the way.  It may be jank but it is truth on every level.  (Cards that have an alternate cost are considered costed at the alternate cost)

[Chamelet]

Principle #8: For the most part, Spells with a casting cost of four or more are unplayable unless they are Blue, Artifact, or have an Alternate Casting Cost.
True, True, True.

Principle #8: Spells with a casting cost of four or more are unplayable unless they win you the game.
Truth.  The founding principle I used when I started playing.  First unpowered I played my own UB Sh*t deck before I knew TMD ever existed.  Fact or Fiction was about the biggest costing thing in the deck,  Shadowmage got my card advantage and FoW cleared the way.  It may be jank but it is truth on every level.  (Cards that have an alternate cost are considered costed at the alternate cost)

Yeah, Smokestack costs 4 and doesn't immediately wins you the game. Same with Uba Mask, Juggernaut, FoW, etc, etc....

[MoxMonkey]

FoW cost 1 blue card and 1 life when your hardcasting it somethings wrong.
The few truths I think exist are

Ancestral Recall and Time walk belong in any Blue control deck
Drawing Cards is Always better than seeing cards since you have a hand after
Storm combo and Drain control will always be around
Keeper and Dragon will always be around cause they are that good
Workshops and bazzars in the same deck will always be bad unless it has squees.  ADD THEM!!!!
Oath is terrible and theres nothing you can do to help that
New cards make old decks viable and create new archtypes
Old cards make for awesome tech and being able to hate out new decks. ( Gifts and Tormods Crypt ) The Dark 
Also On color Moxen and Black lotus should be in every deck because the ability to go broken is always worth it.
Yawgmoth's Will is stupid and should be in every deck that goes for the late game win and in combo.

Thats about it from me and sorry if these are repeats since at times Vintage players agree with some shit.  Sometimes.

[Komatteru]

Workshops and bazzars in the same deck will always be bad unless it has squees.  ADD THEM!!!!

Correction: Workshops and Bazaars in the same deck will start being bad when they stop winning Black Lotuses.  In the past year, Vroman's deck has taken home 3 of them.  Name one other deck that has 3 Black Lotus wins to its name in that time.  Squee is shit when you want to lock your opponent down.  What a waste of fucking cardboard.

[SpencerForHire]

Principle #8: For the most part, Spells with a casting cost of four or more are unplayable unless they are Blue, Artifact, or have an Alternate Casting Cost.
True, True, True.

Principle #8: Spells with a casting cost of four or more are unplayable unless they win you the game.
Truth.  The founding principle I used when I started playing.  First unpowered I played my own UB Sh*t deck before I knew TMD ever existed.  Fact or Fiction was about the biggest costing thing in the deck,  Shadowmage got my card advantage and FoW cleared the way.  It may be jank but it is truth on every level.  (Cards that have an alternate cost are considered costed at the alternate cost)

Yeah, Smokestack costs 4 and doesn't immediately wins you the game. Same with Uba Mask, Juggernaut, FoW, etc, etc....

A resolved Smokestack or Ubamask that isn't dealt with will mean the game very quickly by itself though.  Juggernaut is the Workshop exception which I was ignorant to when I started and to be fair, a workshop will mean game if it isn't dealt with.

[Chamelet]

Principle #8: For the most part, Spells with a casting cost of four or more are unplayable unless they are Blue, Artifact, or have an Alternate Casting Cost.
True, True, True.

Principle #8: Spells with a casting cost of four or more are unplayable unless they win you the game.
Truth.  The founding principle I used when I started playing.  First unpowered I played my own UB Sh*t deck before I knew TMD ever existed.  Fact or Fiction was about the biggest costing thing in the deck,  Shadowmage got my card advantage and FoW cleared the way.  It may be jank but it is truth on every level.  (Cards that have an alternate cost are considered costed at the alternate cost)

Yeah, Smokestack costs 4 and doesn't immediately wins you the game. Same with Uba Mask, Juggernaut, FoW, etc, etc....

A resolved Smokestack or Ubamask that isn't dealt with will mean the game very quickly by itself though.  Juggernaut is the Workshop exception which I was ignorant to when I started and to be fair, a workshop will mean game if it isn't dealt with.

Well, from that point of view, everything will mean game if it isn't dealt with. We call those cards "threats"

[rvs]

3) Black Lotus makes any deck better .: should be included even at the expense of another possible "business" card.
The old Gay Fish lists couldn't use Black Lotus, because of the card disadvantage that resulted from the Lotus.

Which was wrong back then as well. Not playing Lotus is stupid.

Also, every deck should run yawgmoth's will and tinker, just because those cards deserve to be banned.

[Anusien]

3) Black Lotus makes any deck better .: should be included even at the expense of another possible "business" card.
The old Gay Fish lists couldn't use Black Lotus, because of the card disadvantage that resulted from the Lotus.

Which was wrong back then as well. Not playing Lotus is stupid.

Also, every deck should run yawgmoth's will and tinker, just because those cards deserve to be banned.

Actually, Gay/R Fish didn't run Lotus because it didn't want to risk its Null Rods getting Welded out.

[PucktheCat]

Actually, Gay/R Fish didn't run Lotus because it didn't want to risk its Null Rods getting Welded out.

Also, Gay/r just wasn't sped up by Lotus that much.  Its creatures were all 1 or 2 cc, came from two colors, and one of them (Cloud of Faeries) was only decent when you had two lands in play.  And getting creatures out a turn earlier on its own doesn't do much when they all have 1 power.  Its most of its disruption (FoW, Misdirection, Stifle, Daze, Wasteland) wasn't accelerated by Lotus at all.  Curiosity is only useful when you have a creature without summoning sickness, so it was no good first turn.  That left Null Rod and Standstill.  The best reason to play Lotus in Fish was to get Null Rod into play faster, but considering the deck only ran 3 Rods to begin with, it seems like just adding the 4th Rod would have been a more reliable way to get Null Rod out faster.

In general Lotus isn't very good when you have nearly all 1cc spells in multiple colors.  I cut lotus from a zoo-type deck years ago because it rarely was anything more than a Lotus Petal and two points of burn.  The deck had:

4 Kird Ape
4 Skyshroud Elite
3 Mystical Tutor
2 Tithe
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Gorilla Shaman
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Incinerate
26 Mana Sources
...
You get the idea.  Wheel of Fortune and Timetwister loved Lotus, but otherwise it was terrible.  The most common opening with it was, Kird Ape, Gorilla Shaman that I could have cast with my land but didn't because I had the mana, then either Bolt my opponent (strong first turn, let me tell you) or burn for one.

Leo