T1T vs. Gifts discussion

[Moxlotus]

T1T by Lorenzo

3 Flooded strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy
7 Solomoxen
1 Mana Crypt

1 Darksteel Colossus

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Cunning Wish
3 Merchant Scroll
3 Intuition
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Fact or Fiction
3 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth Will
1 Recoup

SIDE:
1 Brain Freeze
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyll’s Recall
1 Shattering Pulse
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Misdirection
2 ReB
1 Pyroblast
1 Darkblast
1 Sundering Titan
2 Pithing Needle

Compared to Brassman's 2nd place deck at GenCon

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sol Ring

Artifact Creatures
1 Darksteel Colossus

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Fact Or Fiction
4 Force Of Will
2 Gifts Ungiven
4 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Thirst For Knowledge

Sorceries
1 Burning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Duress
2 Merchant Scroll
1 Recoup
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
 

Basic Lands
2 Island

Lands
2 Flooded Strand
1 Library Of Alexandria
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

Legendary Lands
1 Tolarian Academy

Snow-Covered Basic Lands
1 Snow-covered Island
 Sideboard:

1 Engineered Explosives
3 Sacred Ground
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Pyroblast
1 Rack And Ruin
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Rushing River
1 Balance
1 Duress
1 Mana Severance
2 Pyroclasm

I was amazed by the remarkable similarities to the Gifts decks popular in the U.S.  It seems that the only real changes are Intuition/AK vs. Gifts/TFK.  The rest of the kill and support cards are essentially the same and look to have similar weaknesses (aggro-control, possibly stax).  Which draw engine is more broken?  Which is more resiliant?  Is there a reason why Italians like Int/AK while the US doesn't?

[Smmenen]

I love intuition AK.

My very first Gifts list was Intuition AK.

Go back to my first "Finding the GIfts deck" article where I unveiled Meandeck Gifts.  My first attempt with serious gifts to improve SSB was Intuiton AK.  It was horrible. 

But I love INtuition AK.  I talk about this deck in my upcoming SCG article, but one point I make is that there is a convergence in t1 control-combo decks around:
Tinker, COlossus, Will, B Wish, Recoup.  Slaver, GIfts, and now Tog have it. 

[Rapalaman1]

To start, here is the list I used to split for 1st/2nd on December 18th at the R.I.W. Lotus Tournament in Livonia, MI:

The Main
60 Cards:
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Jet
1x Mana Vault
1x Mana Crpyt
1x Sol Ring
1x Lotus Petal
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Tolarian Academy
2x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
3x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
4x Island
4x Force of Will
4x Mana Drain
4x Brainstorm
4x Accumulated Knowledge
2x Thirst for Knowledge
2x Cunning Wish
2x Intuition
2x Pithing Needle
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Time Walk
1x Fire/Ice
1x Rebuild
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Tinker
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Darksteel Colossus
1x Tendrils of Agony
 
The Side
15 Cards:
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Rack and Ruin
1x Gush
1x Brain Freeze
1x Misdirection
1x Stifle
1x Pithing Needle
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Darkblast
1x Sundering Titan
1x Psychatog
1x Grab the Reigns

For starters, I originally wanted to build the deck because I got smashed by Lorenzo Fedeli at Gencon by this deck that played a ton of draw spells and seemingly did nothing until it played Tinker or Yawgmoth’s Will and had infinite counter backup.

 I really liked the idea of Intuition/AK in a deck that also played Thirst and Cunning Wish. However, I opted to use things like Pithing Needles, the maindeck Fire/Ice and Rebuild, and the maindeck Tendrils over Lorenzo’s Merchant Scrolls and Duresses. I figured the meta would have more Stax and I would have to fight more Goblin Welders that I did.

I did not want to do a tournament report because I did not write down a lot of vital information and did not want to do any matches injustice, but I pretty much smashed face all day. I played against 1 Dragon, 1 Tog , 2 Oath, 1 5c Stax, 1 mirror, so there were not really any "easy matches".

Probably the saving grace of the deck would be the Needles and the Cunning Wishes. I won so many games because I had the answers to whatever was being thrown at me (and Grab the Reigns is reallllllllly good ^_^)

 

[Thug]

Any deck based around Intuition AK can outdraw and outspeed Gifts so easily that its not even funny, however you should be playing 4 Intuitions and some Duresse to maxime this effect. Intuition > Gits in the easiest comparision.

I think Gifts is the more powerfull card (obv.), but 2U and 3U can be a huge difference. The fact that Gifts is a slow card on itself is why low cc cards that deal with stuff are very good in Gifts. Gifts > Intuition in this case

The problem with Intuition-AK is that is takes too much spots, of you want to run Duress, Drains, Fow, Intuition/AK/DA and the normal restricted stuff and mana your at 50+ cards already. This allows little space for answers against non-control decks.

The funny part is that when I play Tog, I play 1 Tog and 1 Collosus as kills and side out the Tog in about 50% of the matchups. So why call it tog? or T1T for that matter.

Koen

[Rapalaman1]

I cannot see running 4 Intuition, you would see multiples too much and it at times is not needed at all. It may not be the right call, but against some other sort of slower control (Slaver, Tog) that does not have the combo kill with Gifts or takes a few more turns to set up, I would board out the Intuitions anyways.
And as for the Duresses, I do not really think they are necessary because I can almost throw away draw spells there are so many and due to all the draw and the Cunning Wishes I should not need to remove anything from my opponent's hand, I'll will just be able to counter it or win a counter-war over it (that is unless it's Mind's Desire)

[Thug]

I cannot see running 4 Intuition

When Smmenen released the first Tog list with 3 Intuitions many people disagreed, but 3 has been the standard for some time now.
At first glace 4 might look abundant, and it is, but there' s a reasoning.

AK without Intuition is absolute garbage.
If you cycle it, you wasted a card that should have drawn you three cards.
If you hold it back it's dead weight until you find an Intuition.

Playing with four Intuitions makes AK a better card, its just one card that makes 4 cards in your deck a lot better.
So what if you find a second Intuition, worst thing it can do is thin your deck of lands, but it can also setup Will etc.
If you resolve your first Intuition you should be in good shape, since you can get AK against non-control and DA against control.
Hands with Intuition are much better than hands without intuition.

Duress gives you a change against combo, and amplifies your edge against other control decks, It also makes sure your AK's resolve and all that for 1 Mana.
Cunnning Wish is slow, and the more you run the more your deck starts to look like 4-cc, which is not a good thing ATM.
I know the Italians have done extremely well with list like yours, but I dont think the deck is as optimal as it can be.

Koen

[Smmenen]

If I were to ever play that type of deck, here is how I'd build it:

T1 "Tog"

5 Fetchland
5 Island
1 Academy
1 Library
2 Volc
2 Underground Sea
1 Petal
1 Vault
1 Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus
5 Moxen

TEH COMBOS YUMMY
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tinker
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Recoup
1 Burning Wish
1 Time Walk

Good Schtuff:
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Merchant Scroll

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
4 Accumulated Knowledge

2 Cunning Wish??

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mind Twist

Sideboard:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Darkblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Pithing Needle (For Uba Stax)
2 Pyroclasm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Rack and Ruin
1 (Echoing Truth?  Fact or Fiction?)

Starting with that list, I would test it to see objectively how powerful it is.

If Cunning Wish turned out to be bad, then I'd move bounce directly maindeck: 1 Rebuild and 1 Echoing Truth

With Old Tog, Intuition 3 and 4 were justified by the presence of Deep Analysis.  I think Intuition was justified by its synergy with Will.

This deck is clearly just a varant of the Gifts concept but with intuition AK as the intermediate draw engine. 

The core combo remains the same in all these decks:

Will, Tinker, Colossus, Time Walk, Recoup, and Burning Wish.  It's a six card combo from which your opponent never gets another turn.  Tinker isn't really needed either.  You can just B Wish for Tendrils if you have Lotus. 

I might also try to fit in a 3rd Volc to support my huge contingent of REBs.

I think the Cunning Wishes would probably be better just as E Truth and Rebuild. 

Oh yeah, I hate duress in these decks.  I'd rather just SB into lots and ltos of red blasts.

Also note I have Mind Twist. 

EDIT:

It's worth mentioning that although I didn't have 4 Intuition, I supported people who did for a long time.  Tom Van De Logt played my tog list a w hile and he had 4 Intjiton and I said it was a solid tweak for that last slot35th slot. 

[Thug]

If I were to ever play that type of deck, here is how I'd build it:

Thats pretty close compared to what I was thinking about.
maindeck Duress vs. (more) sb REB/pyro is a close call, and probably metagame dependend.
(I would probably change 2 merchant into 2 duresses)
I do think the deck needs more versatile tutors than the Merchant Scroll.
Having more cards to find Will makes intuition even better.
I would certainly play with Vampiric and Mystical.
Recoup and Burning Wish seem iffy, altough having a backup win-condition is probably neccesairy (could be 1 Tog though)

Koen

[Smmenen]

I forgot about Mystical....

but I think that people still don't understand that Scroll IS duress.  You can turn one Scroll for FOW.  It sits in your hand until you need it.  Duress sometimes whiffs and can screw up your mana.  Turn one scroll for FOW is a fine play agianst combo and stax.  Sometimes they will try to play around it and in the process it gave you the same temop that duress would have. 

[Rapalaman1]

You are both forgetting a key element in the discussion: Goblin Welder still spells trouble for the deck.

One of the best things about my list and the way that I wanted to build it (smashing Probasco's Gifts list and Lorenzo's "T1T" list together) was the Pithing Needles and Thirst for Knowledges. Having Pithing Needle allows you to have a silver bullet against any deck and having a card that nullifies Welder and allows you to be able to tinker out Colossus without worry, since the ridiculous amount of draw will always allow you to have a Drain or Force to back up the Tinker.

My point with all of that was that Needle is sweet and the Thirsts give you a good draw spell to "throw away" to a counter of somesort if you don't need it.

I forgot about Mystical....

but I think that people still don't understand that Scroll IS duress. You can turn one Scroll for FOW. It sits in your hand until you need it. Duress sometimes whiffs and can screw up your mana. Turn one scroll for FOW is a fine play against combo and stax. Sometimes they will try to play around it and in the process it gave you the same tempo that duress would have.

I don't really see the need for Scroll in the deck at all. Sure it's nice to be able to Scroll early for Recall or Scroll late game for the 4th AK, but if you play Thirst and Fact or Fiction in the main there is enough draw where you should never need to tutor for something, it should already be in your hand.

And as for using Scroll for finding Force, I must be missing why that's better than Duress and leaving one more Force in the deck (seriously)

[Revvik]

I don't really see the need for Scroll in the deck at all. Sure it's nice to be able to Scroll early for Recall or Scroll late game for the 4th AK, but if you play Thirst and Fact or Fiction in the main there is enough draw where you should never need to tutor for something, it should already be in your hand.

And as for using Scroll for finding Force, I must be missing why that's better than Duress and leaving one more Force in the deck (seriously)

Scroll finds the Force of Will like mentioned, meaning the threat of Force works almost exactly like Force itself.  You are nullifying an early threat of the opponents, although in this case it can also work for Goblin Welder.  It's actually kind of a weak point.  I would rather point out that Merchant Scroll's other strengths are the better reason for running it - if you build your deck around it, the synergies are just incredibly powerful.  The card can essentially be Demonic Tutor #2-5.

But then we all know how much I've liked that card anyways.

As an aside, Bob, I'm really impressed with the list you chose to run.

When it comes to Intuition, the only time I could ever have justified running four was when my deck was packed with four AKs and two Deep Analyses, along with three Psychatogs.  This ensures a use, no matter what, for each one:

Ak, Ak, Ak
DA, DA, Duress (at one point, three DA)
Tog, Tog, Tog / Wish, Wish, Wish
Black Lotus, Time Walk, Ancestral Recall (Will in hand)

And even then I only ran three.  It's a personal preference, I think.  I've always felt that four was messing with my curve.

I forgot about Mystical....

Here's a perfect example.  The fourth Intuition is from my experience a wasted slot, and using the fourth means forcing out cards that serve the deck MUCH more efficiently.  The fact that Smmenen left a crucial card out of his build to make room for four Intuitions is pretty solid proof in my eyes at least, especially when Mystical Tutor is sometimes a good choice in Intuition piles (the competent players know how to Intuition for AK.  The talented players know how to use Intuition to get the exact card they want, even if it is on the Restricted list).

[Thug]

You are both forgetting a key element in the discussion: Goblin Welder still spells trouble for the deck.

A single Darkblast solves that, and the fact that Intuition will get you that Darkblast makes the card even stronger.
Welder shouldn't be a problem, and shouldnt force you to run Needles.

[Rapalaman1]

You are both forgetting a key element in the discussion: Goblin Welder still spells trouble for the deck.

A single Darkblast solves that, and the fact that Intuition will get you that Darkblast makes the card even stronger.
Welder shouldn't be a problem, and shouldn't force you to run Needles.

I originally had the Darkblast main and it was phenomenal, when it killed Goblin Welder, but that's all it does. Now I'm not saying it's not an amazing card, but it's too narrow despite being able to Intuition for it and dredge it back. I opted to play the maindeck Fire/Ice over the Darkblast because not only does it pitch to Force, but it kills Meddling Mage in one shot and  the Welder/Shaman duo in one shot.

Welder is not really a problem for the deck and is just what I have found to be the best use of the Needles. However, they are also extremely efficient at maintaining my mana base against Wasteland and Gorilla Shaman. It also allows me to protect my 2 Volcanics in games 2 and 3 after boarding in 2-3 Red Blasts.

[untap/win]

I was amazed by the remarkable similarities to the Gifts decks popular in the U.S.  It seems that the only real changes are Intuition/AK vs. Gifts/TFK.  The rest of the kill and support cards are essentially the same and look to have similar weaknesses (aggro-control, possibly stax).  Which draw engine is more broken?  Which is more resiliant?  Is there a reason why Italians like Int/AK while the US doesn't?

Intuition ak is a one time draw three, maybe draw four, but why not just gifts for a.recall yawg will, tinker, tWalk? your obviously (depending on the board position and his hand) going to get Recall Twalk? with a new three cards and an extra turn, why waste 4 cards to get three and not just get two cards of 1 gifts that are REALLY GOOD!!

gifts finds 4 cards when youre trying to win, and sets up the recouped will, but in the same situation, intu. only finds three.

The one good thing about intuition is that you can find 3x forces if you need too....

[Thug]

Intuition ak is a one time draw three, maybe draw four, but why not just gifts for a.recall yawg will, tinker, tWalk? your obviously (depending on the board position and his hand) going to get Recall Twalk? with a new three cards and an extra turn, why waste 4 cards to get three and not just get two cards of 1 gifts that are REALLY GOOD!!

If it were that easy we wouldnt be discussing this would we? Or do you think we shouldn't?

Intuition can win you games if you have just 2U available, and against decks like Fish and Stax the speed with which Intuition comes online can be a huge difference. The first AK will draw you three, however with all the tutors and manipulation you should be able to get the 4th. And if you havent won by then you can find Will to draw another 7 cards. If you cant win after drawing 14 extra cards, theres something horribly wrong.

Gifts just wins, Intuition puts you ahead of your opponent which eventually will win you the game too, but makes Intuition looks less powerfull than Gifts. Generally gifts is just better when you need to win right now facing a loss next turn but is it worth the extra mana and the slighlty wasted spots (the red cards).

Koen

[Rapalaman1]

Intuition ak is a one time draw three, maybe draw four, but why not just gifts for a.recall yawg will, tinker, tWalk? your obviously (depending on the board position and his hand) going to get Recall Twalk? with a new three cards and an extra turn, why waste 4 cards to get three and not just get two cards of 1 gifts that are REALLY GOOD!!

Gifts just wins, Intuition puts you ahead of your opponent which eventually will win you the game too, but makes Intuition looks less powerfull than Gifts. Generally gifts is just better when you need to win right now facing a loss next turn but is it worth the extra mana and the slightly wasted spots (the red cards).

Koen

I completely agree. Intuition has gotten alot of flack since Gifts was printed, since Gifts gets the win immediately and Intuition, although cheaper you don't need to go all in on a Gifts like the deck was designed to do. If Intuition does not resolve, it hardly makes a dent in the game, whereas if a Gifts Ungiven does not resolve, it is crippling.

And you don't need to play Recoup or Burning Wish with Intuition IMO since you are going for the longer game you should be able to out-counter your opponent and not need a safety for Yawgmoth's Will or Tinker.

[Fantaman]

4 Intuitions are tooo much.... better one Gift or one FOF.

Mind twist it's a dead card.... yes it's game at first turn with 5 moxes...and no force into your opponent hand.....  :shock:

Impossible in Vintage...!

The first list had Mind Twist but now it's slow and not so great!

About Cunning wish..... better 3/4 of them...!

In italy is that the fact.

Ops I forgot... in the side no Pyroclasm because there's no Burning main deck but 4 Cunning and in the side better Firestorm.

Otherwise Yes Steven your list is great but Cunning are a solution and 3/4 are very very usefull in every match.

Last words: For the REBs better 3 Volcanic Island.

Ok that's my mind!

See u next time!

Fantaman

[P_f]

Running 4 intuitions has very strong merits. For Intuition/AK, there's no other 2 card combination that cost less tempo (4UUU partitioned into 3 different spells, no other set up necessary), sees more cards (10 in all), and nets you the most CA (5).

With Gifts/Thirst, you use 5UU partitioned only twice, sees 7 cards, and nets you 2.

How about say....ancestral/fof (although restricted)? 4UU, see 8 cards, net max of 4-5 depending on the fof pile.

Thats right, Having Intuition and AK in hand is similar to having both ancestral and fof in your hand. And it gets more ridiculous because it comes online so early in the game. Undisrupted, you can easily draw 7 from AKs by turn 3, if you are fighting thru mana lock or counter/duress/merchant scroll wars, you can still get it online by turn 4 quite easily. Upping the intuition count increases your chance to assemble both your first AK and intuition into your hand.

I'm pretty sure everyone already know this (or most people), but if they've been too caught up with how good gifts is and forgotten how ridiculous intuition can be, this is a heads up again.

If you want to win counter-wars and outdraw your opponent, intuition/ak is the correct engine to play. Not something like 4 gift/4 tfk/a bunch of other draws like DA or scrying.
==================
I want to extend this intuition idea a little further. Before people realized recoup is playable, intuition never really got anything besides flashback cards, AKs, Squees or combo parts like oath and bazaar. Sure, it can get 3 of anything else, but it wouldn't be optimizing intuition's power. With recoup, it can now be regarded as both tinker and yawg will, albeit, requiring a buttload more mana.

However, trying to play the maximum amount of intuition, purely from a deckbuilding point of view, the card is fighting slots with other tutors, particular merchant scroll and cunning wish. Neither of these cards have the draw potential inherent in intuition, however, they can both get tinker (tinker will be our only relevant card regarding winning) provided we adjust our build a bit like putting either vamp or mystical in the board. What merchant scroll and cunning wish both have intuition doesn't is the ability to fetch bullet solution cards such as a bounce spell. I think what we need to analyze (or re-analyze) is the correct config of these 3 tutors. The original decklist on this thread has 3 of each. Is that the optimal configuration? In practice, this configuration can potentially allow a good player to utilize whatever tutor they draw optimally but I can't be sure that something like 4 intuition/4 scroll or 4 wish/ scroll isn't simply better than a 3/3/3 configuration.

Another thing I didn't even consider is how Smmenen suggests treating merchant scroll like duress. While this sounds like an appealing strategy in conjunction with boarding in lots of blasts, I can't be sure if this type of play is actually better than playing duress. Besides the -1 card advantage from FOW, you are letting your opponent the ability to outplay you. Sure, you can stop him from casting good spells with the threat of fow, but what if he has 2 good spells like ancestral and oath? He can bait you with ancestral, and then resolve oath and you're doomed. To me, merchant scroll has no place in a deck that leans more towards winning a late game (what control deck now can't just randomly win really early by casting tinker?). Winning a late game means you can't lose your early game. Casting Merchant scroll early lets your opponent too much window opportunity to win early.

At face point, at least to me, Cunning Wish seems like an extremely versatile card and makes me happy making a decklist. Its more versatile than merchant scroll and its 2U cost is offset by it being instant. In a pinch, it can get basically anything. However, its flaws surfaced when I discovered how it can potentially, if not outright, make my sideboarded games a lot weaker. Theoretically, the added flexibility makes my maindeck look very strong, but is Cunning Wish really a good card? Is the added sb slots you don't have to devote in being wish targets significant for your sideboarded games?

To analyze these cards, I think we should consider 1)How each of these tutors affect the tempo of our plays and 2)The deckbuilding strength/weaknesses these cards offer.