TT Confident (a.k.a. The Perfect Pile)

[Sean Ryan]

I have also been experimenting with Koen's original list.  Aftyer trying some different combinations out I came to the conclusion that a Togless Tog build was superior to using Confidants.  My list used AK/Intuition and killed with Tendrils or DSC.

Another option is to combine elements of Giftz with some of the changes that Cross made.   Using his list as a reference you could do something like this:

- 2 TfK
- 1 Desire
- 1 Ritual
- 1 Gush
- 1 Confidant
- 1 Tendrils

+ 2 Giftz
+ 2 Tinker/DSC
+ 1 Recoup 
+ 1 Fact
+ 1 M. Scroll

The only downside I can see is that there is a very small chance you could reveal Colossus with the Confidant.  Other than that you gain more power and cut the chaff.  Whether this would be better than the other Giftz builds or Neo u/b combo/control is up for debate.

Thanks
Sean

[Cross]

Well I think what you have done is rebuilt gifts and added confidant.

I think this deck is inherently different than gifts in that it is not reliant on its graveyard, and gifts, if anything slows the deck down more. While these may not be bad things, I think that the decks are just totally different. I also think you open yourself up to decks that attack your resources even more, as you now have a tri-color mana base, and are reliant on casting a 4cc spell, which you probably can't cast the same turn you win because of the huge amount of resources expended on it.

[Necropotenza]

First, I'm glad the discussion of this deck has been reopened.

I like some of the changes Cross made to the list, especially regarding the mana base. I think UB is the way to go, 4 Islands and 1 Swamp seem like the right decision. I like the inclusion of Vampiric, it has tremendous synergy with Top and Confidant.

I find interesting the inclusion of Gush, Chain of vapor and Dark ritual. I had been tempted to add a single Dark ritual too, but it seems it is too conditional, especially if you run no Bargain. Could you elaborate on why do you think Gush is good a part from when you are going off? I usually don't like loosing 2 land drops to "just" draw 2 cards.

4 bouncers feel like a lot to me, maybe cutting Hurkyl's for the Chain of vapor might be wise, considering a Meddling mage on Tendrils spells game. I don't understand why only 3 Brainstorms are being played, you argue that you add a 6th fetchland because it has enormous synergy with it.

In my testing I've always liked Bargain a lot more than Desire. When firing a Desire for 5 you tend to reveal chaff that doesn't immediately win you te game. Bargain hasn't got a fantastic synergy with Confidants, but as long as you have +10 life it's a safe bet to say it'll win you the game. I love Fact or fiction, it wins a lot of games for me. Why have you cut it?

I started playing the deck more bomb-centric and I am now playing it in a more synergistic way, trying to maximize the card's strenghts. This is the synergy pack I play:

4 Dark Confidant
3 Sensei divining top
3 Thirst for knowledge
1 Mystical tutor
1 Vampiric tutor

Keep it coming.

[Cross]

Thanks for the feedback.

I found ritual to be more of a yawgmoth's will card, and this is not a yawg's deck. However, I also found that sometimes I was short the mana to go off, and this is an elegant solution to that problem. As I also said this turns mystical tutor into a mana source. I also enjoy being able to go, rit-confidant-top on turn 1.

Gush is insanely good, I really recommend you try it. It generates mana if you haven't made a land drop, and it's two spells under yawg's if you have 4 lands. Plus you can get cards off tutors with it, and get back on LOA if you need to. I usually don't use this unless I am going off.

I am fond of four bouncers, but if I were to cut one it would be the 2nd rebuild, not the hurkyl's recall. Against stax I want to have answers at multiple casting costs, and having hurkyl's gives me bounce at 1, 2 and 3. It's also good against fish because it's cheaper, and easier to cast after an onslaught of wastes or strip effects, or even under null rod and daze.

I cut the 4th brainstorm because I added the second top. These two are not interchangeable, but top has better synergy with all the tutors and confidant. Desire might become brainstorm four in my list, but I also don't like seeing brainstorm as much with tops. When you have a top on the board, %90 of the time brainstorm then just becomes force of will fodder or just a dead card, because they are overly redundant.

Personally I don't like either bargain or desire. In both cases they win games, but I feel like they're win more cards. Often times they also lose you the game, as you spend all your resources to get them, and then don't have enough to cast the tendrils, or you flip nothing with desire.

Desire may become FOF, which I also like, but FOF is not desire, I don't kinow, I'm confused about a number of things in the deck.

Where did you get the space for TFK 3, and sensei's top 3?

[Necropotenza]

I'm confused about a number of things in the deck.

I think this is common to all of us trying to break this deck. This means well thought input on the deck is more than welcome!

My list differs from yours in:
- LoA, -Desire, -Chain, -Ritual, -Gush
+Brainstorm, +Bargain, +Top, +Fact, +Thirst

I try to build the deck redundantly to avoid the most bad topdecks as I can. Excess Tops can be pitched to Thirst or Brainstormed away. I think that Brainstorm and Top don't overlap as much as people think they do, they serve similar purposes with slight, but important, differences.

I'm not a big fan of LoA, but this are my thoughts about it right now. As good as it is, I feel it's too slow for the environment. Even "control" decks such as Gifts, T1T etc. can force you quite easily to go down to 6-5 cards playing game deciding bombs. If you opt for letting those bombs resolve you'll usually get the same card advantage with LoA in two or three turns. The important thing is the opponent will have gained CA with no tempo loss at all, when you'll be forced to tap a mana source to draw a card every turn (not that it's a bad thing), and most importantly they'll have UU up before you do. I don't like LoA because I play the deck aggressively and I feel that it's more of a win more card when you already have 7 cards in hand due to a Confidant. To top it all, it's the only Wastelandable land in the deck with Academy. I'd really like you to convince me to use LoA because I think it's a great card, but too conditional.

Fact is amazing, try it I'll definitely test Gush in place of the 3rd Thirst.

As a random thought, too many times I've found no sink for Mana Drain mana, other than Top, which is not a very spectacular mana sink...

[Sean Ryan]

My thoughts on adding Gifts components were more of a sidebar than anything else.  What I stated earlier in the post was that taking the deck in the direction of u/b combo control seems like the way to go.

 It seems like there is a concensus in ditching the heavy combo peices (Desire, Bargain, Tinker/Jar).  When I did this the deck started to resemble a Monoblu strategy (adding black of course) with a combo finish.  After working with that concept for awhile it became clear that a Tog shell would actually be more powerful.  I replaced Tog with Tinker/DSC & a single Tendrils.  At this point we are no longer taking about a Confidant based deck, but this raises the question of which direction to take u/b combo/control.  After looking at the Waterbury results "Togless Tog" or "Mana Drain TPS"  is definitly viable.   

Thanks
Sean

[JDawg13]

I'm not a big fan of LoA, but this are my thoughts about it right now. As good as it is, I feel it's too slow for the environment. Even "control" decks such as Gifts, T1T etc. can force you quite easily to go down to 6-5 cards playing game deciding bombs. If you opt for letting those bombs resolve you'll usually get the same card advantage with LoA in two or three turns.

Here are my thoughts on why Library is included in here.  If you're playing the control mirror, it becomes very difficult to lose a game where you start off with a first turn Library.  Even if your opponent does manage to get you down below seven cards, you can get back to seven fairly easily with the help of Top's draw ability, or by having a Confidant on the board.

The important thing is the opponent will have gained CA with no tempo loss at all, when you'll be forced to tap a mana source to draw a card every turn (not that it's a bad thing), and most importantly they'll have UU up before you do.

In a control matchup, the tempo lost due to laying down a Library on turn one is not nearly as vital as the long-term CA it will provide.  Even if Gifts casts a Gifts early in the game, that most certainly does not mean that the game is over for you.  They still have to assemble their kill pieces, while all you have to do is wait until you can drop a bunch of moxen and other cheap spells and throw a Tendrils at them.  I know that's an over-simplification, but I think you get the point.

I don't like LoA because I play the deck aggressively and I feel that it's more of a win more card when you already have 7 cards in hand due to a Confidant.

I have to disagree with this statement.  An active Confidant will not necessarily provide you with the kind of card advantage necessary to win a control mirror; whereas if you have both Library and Confidant active, I have a hard time believing you will lose that game.

To top it all, it's the only Wastelandable land in the deck with Academy.

If you know you're playing against a deck playing Wastes, and you're on the play, maybe laying down a basic is a better idea than Library, but even then I don't think that's the play, because if your opponent doesn't have the Waste, you pretty much just win.  Also, perhaps you've forgotten about the Underground Seas as Waste targets. 

I'd really like you to convince me to use LoA because I think it's a great card, but too conditional.

I agree that it's a great card, and I would be hard-pressed to think of a reason to cut it.  Maybe in a metagame that you know will be full of Fish-type things and nearly no control I could see cutting it, but other than that I'm leaving my Library right where it is.

[Thug]

Things I changed from the original:

Dropped all the traditional combo pieces (bargain, tinker, jar). I find these cards to be too many resources for an effect that may not win the game. Bargain IMO doesn't work with confidants well, and aggro-control decks already wreck combo decks so these were on the chopping block.

Went up to 6 fetches, with top and brainstorms the more shuffle effects you have the better. These win games.

Basic swamp, against a field of wastelands this card wins games. Having access to 4 fetches to get this is also key to the inclusion.  Also 4 basic islands and 6 fetches, is amazing against wastes.

Basic swamp defenitly belongs in there, I didn't play one in the original but have played one ever since.
People should be less worried about Wastelands though in general, if you do something like Sea, Mox, Confidant, the best thing that can happen is that your opponent wastes your land and passes the turn, it's essentially a time walk for you.

Added gush, vamp and ritual -> Outlaw suggested gush over the frantic search I was testing, and I never looked back, this card is great at generating mana, and is easily the best "free" spell. Ritual makes mystical a mana source, and is often included in turn 1 or 2 wins.  I added vamp for the card selection ability and synergy with top/brainstorm/gush.

I tried Gush for a While, but it too often was a win-more card for me. It isn't very good at getting back into a game where you are behind.
I stayed away from Vampiric for a coupe of reasons, but Vampiric is rarely a bad card in deck that can produce black mana.
Ritual seems cinda odd if you're cutting cards like Bargain, Jar and maybe even Desire, what's your reasoning behind the card?

Chain of vapor, also not in the original list, is incredible, and is the best way to up storm for only 1 mana. This is probably the best storm generator in the deck, and the catch-all for hate.

Chain of Vapor should probably have been in there after I removed Colossus from the maindeck (like I did).
Add to that, that people are able to recognize the deck now: Chain/Truth should defeniatly be in there now.

Cards on the chopping block:
Desire - May go the way of bargain, and for the same reasons.
In a meta of aggro-control, confidant is questionable, as they run infinite ways to remove him, and he rarely sticks on the board against these decks. He's also dead against oath, which bothers me. I may play with the number of confidants mainboard vs sideboard. He's amazing against gifts, combo, stax, dragon and decent against slaver. I'm really torn about this card. It's definitely not the night's whisper people say it is, as if he stays for even just one extra card he's still 2 damage (one less storm), and has replaced himself for card advantage. Against gifts or combo decks, you can win by confidant beats, if you get him to stick. The card advantage is like a LOA that serves for 2, and the damage is about a mana crypt, or 0 if you have tops out. Other times, he's not necessary for going off.

As I said before Desire threated me very well during the tournament, while I actually wanted to cut it before the tournament.
I guess Desire needs more testing, some times it can be amazing, other times it will do absolutely nothing.
It's still a hot tutor target against Control decks though.

I always want to see a Confidant asap. It's amazing against Stax and Control, while chumping Piledrivers etc against Fish/Aggro. Even against combo it can help you a lot if you managed to survive the first two turns.

@Top - Brainstorm
You're right about the Brainstorm and Top issues, having 4 Brainstorm and 2 Top is 1 too much.
I would rather cut the second top than the 4th Brainstorm though, Brainstorm it just faster in the early game, when it often matters most.

@LoA
I think LoA is better in this deck than in any other excisting deck I can think off.
- You got soo many ways to refill your hand up to 7 (Top, H. Recall, Rebuild, Confidant, Ancestral)
- You got enough counters to ride LoA advantage to a win
- You don't run any other colorless lands, so it hardle messes with your mana-base

As a random thought, too many times I've found no sink for Mana Drain mana, other than Top, which is not a very spectacular mana sink...

I don't think this has happened to me ... ever,
I do remember hardcasting a FoW instead of Draining because I wasn't sure If I would find a sink.

Koen

[cssamerican]

I have also been experimenting with Koen's original list.  Aftyer trying some different combinations out I came to the conclusion that a Togless Tog build was superior to using Confidants.

It seems like there is a concensus in ditching the heavy combo peices (Desire, Bargain, Tinker/Jar). When I did this the deck started to resemble a Monoblu strategy (adding black of course) with a combo finish. After working with that concept for awhile it became clear that a Tog shell would actually be more powerful. I replaced Tog with Tinker/DSC & a single Tendrils. At this point we are no longer taking about a Confidant based deck, but this raises the question of which direction to take u/b combo/control. After looking at the Waterbury results "Togless Tog" or "Mana Drain TPS" is definitly viable.

Thanks
Sean

I have been working on a deck on my own lately, and it seems that it is close enough to this one for me to bring it up. Plus I think resembles what sryan0079 was talking about.

Dark Storm
Lands –14
        4 Island
        1 Swamp
        1 Library of Alexandria
        4 Polluted Delta
        3 Underground Sea
        1 Tolarian Academy
Creatures – 4
        4 Dark Confidant
Instants – 23
        4 Accumulated Knowledge
        1 Ancestral Recall
        4 Brainstorm
        1 Chain of Vapor
        3 Intuition
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Rebuild
        4 Force of Will
        4 Mana Drain
Sorceries – 10
        1 Demonic Tutor
        3 Duress
        2 Merchant Scroll
        2 Tendrils of Agony
        1 Time Walk
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
Artifacts – 9
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Sapphire

It originally started off as a Tog deck that used Dark Confidants as additional draw and beats with Tendrils of Agony as a back win condition. However, the more I played it the less I used Tog and the more I used Tendrils. Eventually I just cut the Togs and the green splash completely. Since Koen’s list began as TPS and mine began as Tog I find it interesting how similar they have become, perhaps we are on to something.  I do have a few questions though.

Why are people trying to play high casting cost bombs? They hurt when revealed by Bob, they can be difficult to cast, and they will hurt really bad if they get drained. Is this just because they were just left over from TPS? Or are people having huge success with them?

Why are people playing with Sensei's Divining Top? It is slower than Brainstorm and Null Rod shuts it off. Are you are that worried about what you reveal with Bob? If so, is running cards you fear Bob hitting worth it?

[Cross]

Why are people playing with Sensei's Divining Top? It is slower than Brainstorm and Null Rod shuts it off. Are you are that worried about what you reveal with Bob? If so, is running cards you fear Bob hitting worth it?

I'm not worried about the damage, though it is nice to have one out with him. I just enjoy having top with 6 fetches, and 3 instant speed tutors. The synergy here is excellent for card selection/quality. Null rod is an issue, and something that needs to be taken into consideration.

@Top - Brainstorm
You're right about the Brainstorm and Top issues, having 4 Brainstorm and 2 Top is 1 too much.
I would rather cut the second top than the 4th Brainstorm though, Brainstorm it just faster in the early game, when it often matters most.

I'll try this configuration, it  may be better than what I have. Top just isn't brainstorm.

Ritual seems cinda odd if you're cutting cards like Bargain, Jar and maybe even Desire, what's your reasoning behind the card?

It's excellent at generating storm, and it's excellent at generating mana; however it's dead unless you're going off, or have the rare confidant and top in hand. I love using mystical tutor as a mana source, in addition to the tutors' usual utility. I found that every now and then I wouldn't have the double black when I needed to cast tendrils, and running ritual as a singleton helped this.

I tried Gush for a While, but it too often was a win-more card for me. It isn't very good at getting back into a game where you are behind.

I really like gush in storm combo. It's excellent at generating mana, and it's "free." I agree it's not as great at getting you back in the game as say tfk, but tfk, is not as great when you are going off. I think it's hard to find a card that does both these jobs.

What do you feel the decks worst matchups are?

Right now I think it's aggro control and oath. Agro-control, is built to beat combo. Sometimes you have the answers, and other times, they just lock you out. Also, these decks have wisened up to the original sideboard plan of most decks just tinkering colossus on them and swinging for the win.

Oath is sometimes easy to beat and other times impossible. Confidants are immediately dead agains them, unless they can't find an oath for some reason. Plus they run duress, counter magic, and cards like chalice and null rod.

Any thoughts on either of these or other "bad" matchups?

[cssamerican]

What do you feel the decks worst matchups are?

Right now I think it's aggro control and oath. Agro-control, is built to beat combo. Sometimes you have the answers, and other times, they just lock you out. Also, these decks have wisened up to the original sideboard plan of most decks just tinkering colossus on them and swinging for the win.

Oath is sometimes easy to beat and other times impossible. Confidants are immediately dead agains them, unless they can't find an oath for some reason. Plus they run duress, counter magic, and cards like chalice and null rod.

Any thoughts on either of these or other "bad" matchups?

I think your have correctly identified the worst the match-ups, though Grim Long might be difficult as well but I haven't ran into as of yet.

Versus decks like Fish I think the best plan is for me is to side out my three Duress and add a Volcanic Island and two copies of Pyroclasm. I keep the Dark Confidants in because they can block, so in essence they change roles from being a draw engine to creature removal.

In my deck when I have faced Oath I have been replacing the Dark Confidants with Annul. This allows me to use my other counter magic to back-up the Annuls or to ensure my draw spells resolve. I also have been siding in two copies of Engineered Plague, which remove spirit tokens as long as one can stay in play. The great thing about both of these cards is they are good in other match-ups as well. Annul is good versus Stax and Dragon. Engineered Plague is good versus Goblins and the new Ichorid decks. This way I get to throw a lot of hate versus Oath without them being totally useless in other match-ups.

Versus faster combo decks like Grim Long my plan is to drop the Dark Confidants and add a Volcanic Island, Recoup, Tinker, and Darksteel Colossus. This way you can attempt to race them if you can slow them down with a couple of counter spells or Duress. I haven't tried this out as of yet, so it might not be that solid of a plan, but it seems to be the best approach in theory.

I am just not sure how well these strategies would apply to some of the other decks posted in this thread just because they seem to rely more on Dark Confidant for draw then the build I have been playing with. But the Fish and Oath strategies have worked well for me, and I do think splashing a different duel and a couple of powerfull off-color cards from the board is a viable idea that should be explored to help shore up weak match-ups.

[Rapalaman1]

It seemed like decks similar to this (Drain combo with Intuition/AK) were a big hit at Waterbury. I saw alot of people getting great results with the Confident builds, but alot of other decks were playing Bargain,Mind's Desire,Tinker/Jar, in the Confident slots.

I think what this deck and all Mana Drain based combo decks have evolved into is TPS of somesort where Dark Ritual has been replaced by what Mana Drain has evolved into itself. Mana Drain and Dark Ritual have combined powers into one unholy card that people have learned to abuse to the fullest in combo decks.

It's Savage

[Sean Ryan]

@CSSamerican,

The list you posted is very similair to where I was in testing a few weeks ago.  I opted to drop the Confidants and make these changes:

-4 confidant
-1 Tendrils
-1 Intuition
-1 Sea
-1 Petal

+2 Tinker/DSC
+1 Recoup
+1 Gifts
+1 Cunning Wish
+1 Fetch
+2 Volcanic

I found that the Confidants would hold me back waiting for Card advantage when I wanted to go for the throat.  Adding Tinker/DSC, Recoup, and a lone Gifts go a long way to accomplishing this.

I would also like to hear from the people who did well at Waterbury with similiar lists containg more TPS elements.

Thanks
Sean

[cssamerican]

I understand what your saying about Dark Confidant encouraging you to play a little slower; however, I am not sure playing a little slower is necessarily a bad thing. I have been winning a lot of games by riding a Dark Confidant and using the extra draw just to control the game. I have found that this strategy will force my opponent's to make difficult decisions. If they play conservatively in an effort not to walk into a Mana Drain or in an effort to out control me, Dark Confidant beats them. If they try to advance their strategy as fast as possible in order to race the card advantage Dark Confidant gives me (I think this is the best strategy) they leave themselves open for me to combo out on them with little resistance. In games that they do have creature removal nothing makes me happier watching my opponents using tutors and mana in an attempt to remove my Dark Confidant. That is fewer resources they are devoting to winning, and they are making an attempt to out control a deck that is most likely better at control than they are.

Another thing I have been aware of while playing this deck is that it doesn't need that much mana to do a lot of things. I have noticed in the Togless Tog thread (Which is pretty interesting by the way) people are playing with quite a few more lands than I am. I am not quite sure why because I almost never feel land light with my deck, maybe it is because they don't have as many cheap draw effects (No Dark Confidants). If that is the case then Dark Confidants inclusion actually doesn't cost you four business spells. It is more like two business spells and two lands, which seems like another positive reason for running Dark Confidants in a build like this.

I have also been testing [card]Rolling Earthquake[/card] in place of Pyroclasm as a sideboard answer for various aggro decks, and I must say that I think that in this deck it might be the better card. Not only can it remove creatures with toughness greater than two, it can also reduces your needed storm count for the win. The life loss has been a non-issue since Dark Confidants really don't stay in play versus aggro decks.

The maindeck spot that I am still on the fence about is the second copy of Tendrils of Agony. I am not sure if it should stay, or if Vampiric Tutor or a third Merchant Scroll would be better in that slot. I don't like it because it always seems like I draw it when I don't want too; however, I am afraid that if I swap it out I will hurt my consistency at going off. I am curious to hear other people's perspective on this.

[McBain]

the one question i have about the rolling thunder tech...so its just earthquake for horsemanship, so that does affect flyers? the translation ect doenst change it to flyers??

This should be in the rules forum. Creatures with flying do not have Horsemanship, so they will take damage from Rolling Earthquake.

All further posts in this thread should stay on topic.

-Jacob

[Bakes]

Playing with three sensei's divining tops are much better than playing with two because it gives you a greater advantage in using the confidant.

[Numero Uno]

Playing with three sensei's divining tops are much better than playing with two because it gives you a greater advantage in using the confidant.

Definetly agree, the tops are so essential to the deck and the card advantage the top/confidant provides.

[MoxMonkey]

I think 4 brainstorms and 2 Tops is the better way to go.  brainstorm lets you spend only 1 Blue to use Confidant well Top is 2 Mana to fix the top cards.  Also Flipping over something that cost a lot is so slim and the damage can be negated by a tendrils with storm of 5 or so when needed.  I like Top a lot but the fact is Top Slows you down and Theres really no reason to slow the deck down when you can run 2 Tops and 4 brainstorms,  I haven't played this a lot but thats what I've been seeing from my limited testing.

[JDawg13]

Playing with three sensei's divining tops are much better than playing with two because it gives you a greater advantage in using the confidant.

I actually think this is a bad idea.  Running three Tops means you're cluttering up the deck with unnecessary deck manipulation stuff, especially if you're also running four Brainstorms.  Think about that, you're using up seven maindeck slots for cards that, while helping improve card quality a bit, don't actually do much for advancing your gameplan.  Also, this deck doesn't exactly have a lot of room to work with, so you pretty much have to either cut a bomb, draw spell, or mana to fit in more Tops, which I just don't think is necessary.

[McBain]

i have tested 1,2, and 3 tops in my version. I found that even two is the perfect amount, any more than that and you lose out on bomb spells. Even one top seems to work good, but it makes you play more combo and go for the win a lot faster, with a confindant and a top in play you can always play control till you know you can win.

[cssamerican]

I would argue against running Sensei's Divining Top for several reasons. The first being you just don’t need it. If Dark Confidants were not in the deck no one would be playing Tops. That means the sole reason they are being included is because they prevent life loss in conjunction with Dark Confidant. Now, I play my deck fairly conservatively, and I don’t play with any Tops. The life-loss situation due to Dark Confidant is a rare occurrence if you are not playing a ton of high casting cost cards, so there is no need to worry about it. If you draw so many cards off a Dark Confidant that your life becomes an issue then you should not have any problems winning the game. There are better cards you could be running in its place. If you want search power just run a few tutors. If you want explosive storm generators run stuff like Gush and Frantic Search. Why run a mediocre search card that does not help you avoid Duress, is shut down by Null Rod, and is only really good if you have a Polluted Delta ready to crack?

Looking at some of the successful Storm-Drain lists from Waterbury I noticed a few things.

None of the lists ran Sensei's Divining Top except the one running Dark Confidants. I think this reinforces my earlier point in that if you don't run Dark Confidants you wouldn’t be running Tops.

[card]Massacre[/card] looks really good in this deck as an anti-aggro card that can in some cases be a free spell for your storm count, and all but one of these decks had it in their board.

The mana bases ranged from 24 to 26 mana sources. I find that funny because I keep getting mana flooded with my deck and I only run 23 (Edited from 21, I don't no what I was smoking when I counted) mana sources. I would really like to here from some of the people who played this style of deck at Waterbury just to here their thoughts on the number of mana sources.

Some people at Waterbury ran just Tinker/Colossus others ran Mind’s Desire and/or Yawgmoth’s Bargain. I am curious to know what high costing bombs if any do people believe should be included in the deck and why.

[Thug]

On the number of top's:

I think 1 is the right number, but theres nothing wrong with 2, I just think there are better cards to fill in the slot.
Top gives you the option of taking full control of the game in combination with a Confidant, this is hardly ever needed though, since you should be able to win before Confidant becomes too much of a threat (unless you're really unlucky).

Top has good synergy with multiple cards in the deck, it's not just there for Confidant, it also combines well with Rebuild and Thirst.
Also having a top makes Duress based combo decks cry, since it's very easy to hide a Counter on the top.
On the other hand: cards like Chalice for 1 and Null Rod make top pretty bad, so I think it's a metagame call above all.

If you see a lot of Uba Stax, multiples Top doesn't seem too hot.
In a more control orientated metagame they can be pretty decent though.

Koen

[Cross]

I actually had 27 mana sources, counting rit.

Top is also good with the card disadvantage tutors, as you get the card tutored for immediately.

At the same time, against other drain based decks confidant alone wins games. I've hit force of will twice in a game, and still won because I had the forces to completely control my opponent.

The less card affected by null rod the better.

I'm still on the fence about desire, at times its amazing, like I desired for 12 against this one guy, and to put it over the top hit both tendrils. At the same time, if desire had just been another tendrils I would have won anyways.

[Gabethebabe]

At the same time, against other drain based decks confidant alone wins games. I've hit force of will twice in a game, and still won because I had the forces to completely control my opponent.

That sounds like it is a bad thing that you flip over a FoW with Confidant. I happily pay 6 life and remove a blue card from the game to counter a spell.

The dudes that suggest 3 Tops are wrong. 1.5 is the right number and I tend to go more to 1 than 2. After drawing a couple of cards, you have such advantage that you should just win.

[NWI Team_Zilla]

I just have a couple comments to make:
1) Tinker only belongs in this deck if you are running DSc or some other win condition that it can fetch.   That siad, I think that Memory Jar is a must hear and for that reason Tinker should also be a must.  Basically, my build has Tinker/DSC as well as jar.  Granted, 90% of the time I tendrills for the win.  It's nice to have a quick way to end the game without haveing to go all out for the kill.  Its a nice sit back and bash for two turns I win.  What I'm trying to ay here is if you run Tinker, run a kill card too.
2) 4 Brainstorm, 2 Top's is the right number.  Anyone running 3 and 3 or 4 and 3 is just wasteing space and getting dead draws pretty consistantly.  The top does not make the confidant good, the Confidant wins games without the Top, the top is strictly there are a way to prevent some damage from bob as well as be synergistic with the 9 shuffle effects.  Also, Null Rod is a consideration, but not a problem, they are merely shuting down a couple moxen and one top at most usually.  Your answer, cast rebuild and proceed to win the game.

At the same time, against other drain based decks confidant alone wins games. I've hit force of will twice in a game, and still won because I had the forces to completely control my opponent.

That sounds like it is a bad thing that you flip over a FoW with Confidant. I happily pay 6 life and remove a blue card from the game to counter a spell.

Your forgot that you happily pay 6 life, counter a spell, and cantrip for drawing an additional card that turn.

[Thug]

For those interested, here are some thoughts about the deck:

Merchant Scroll seems perfect for the deck, and I think the deck should play at least 2.
- It can fetch counters when you want to control the deck (like, when you have a Confidant out)
- It can fetch H. Recall, Rebuild to power up cards like Tendrils and Desire.
- It can fetch Mystical to get Will or Tinker
- And if nothing from the above applies you can still fetch Ancestral, or a Thirst.

Platinum Angel should have a spot; at least sideboard
I think the card is hot, and a perfect answer to certain decks.

You can easily get away with a single Tendrils, especially if you add Vampiric.

Koen

[Jawman16]

Mana Vault vs. Dark Ritual: A Debate

I see that most lists in this thread are running Mana Vault.  Some are running Dark Ritual as well.  I think Mana Vault is a flawed card in the deck (Cross and Thug's version) especially in the face of a superior card: Dark Ritual.

Dark Ritual
Pros: *Makes Black mana*, Allows for stupid Yawgmoth's Wills, powers out turn one Confidant in the absence of moxen, Speeds the deck up (more so than Vault.  Think Yawg Will here), Confuses the opponent (they may mistake you for a pure, Drainlesss combo deck)
Cons: Does not interact with the artifact bouncers/Tolarian Academy, Does not pitch to Thirst for Knowledge, not a permanent, Usually plays off a U-Sea, thereby decreasing your U mana available for that turn

Mana Vault
Pros: Interacts with artifact bouncers/Tolarian Academy, Pitches to Thirst, One more permanent against Smokestack and friends, Can be played via off color mox
Cons: Colorless mana, not as conducive to busted Yawg Will's/Tendrils.  *No turn one Confidant off a hand with lands and Mana Vault*

The fact that Ritual makes black mana is huge.  Ritual significantly decreases the decks reliance on Black Lotus when it comes time to play Will, Desire and Tendrils.  Also a hand of Ritual + Will is much greater than Mana Vault + Will.  Vault is strong with a Rebuild or other bouncer but I don't think that benefit outweighs the pros of using Ritual.  I would definitely run at least 1, if not 2 Rituals in the combo-ish version.  I am rarely disappointed to see one at any time.  They allow for turn 2-3 wins that would not be possible via Mana Vault. 

It goes without saying that this deck craves turn one Dark Confidant.  In fact, I almost view him as I view Oath of Druids in some matchups.  A Turn 1 Confidant, like a Turn 1 Oath, just wins some games.  Dark Ritual lets you achieve this; your main goal, more often. 

[NWI Team_Zilla]

Mana Vault vs. Dark Ritual: A Debate

I see that most lists in this thread are running Mana Vault.  Some are running Dark Ritual as well.  I think Mana Vault is a flawed card in the deck (Cross and Thug's version) especially in the face of a superior card: Dark Ritual.

Dark Ritual
Pros: *Makes Black mana*, Allows for stupid Yawgmoth's Wills, powers out turn one Confidant in the absence of moxen, Speeds the deck up (more so than Vault.  Think Yawg Will here), Confuses the opponent (they may mistake you for a pure, Drainlesss combo deck)
Cons: Does not interact with the artifact bouncers/Tolarian Academy, Does not pitch to Thirst for Knowledge, not a permanent, Usually plays off a U-Sea, thereby decreasing your U mana available for that turn

Mana Vault
Pros: Interacts with artifact bouncers/Tolarian Academy, Pitches to Thirst, One more permanent against Smokestack and friends, Can be played via off color mox
Cons: Colorless mana, not as conducive to busted Yawg Will's/Tendrils.  *No turn one Confidant off a hand with lands and Mana Vault*

The fact that Ritual makes black mana is huge.  Ritual significantly decreases the decks reliance on Black Lotus when it comes time to play Will, Desire and Tendrils.  Also a hand of Ritual + Will is much greater than Mana Vault + Will.  Vault is strong with a Rebuild or other bouncer but I don't think that benefit outweighs the pros of using Ritual.  I would definitely run at least 1, if not 2 Rituals in the combo-ish version.  I am rarely disappointed to see one at any time.  They allow for turn 2-3 wins that would not be possible via Mana Vault. 

It goes without saying that this deck craves turn one Dark Confidant.  In fact, I almost view him as I view Oath of Druids in some matchups.  A Turn 1 Confidant, like a Turn 1 Oath, just wins some games.  Dark Ritual lets you achieve this; your main goal, more often. 

Firstly, Vault is just better in the singular.  There is no reason to free up maindeck slots for Dark Ritual, either as a bad 1-of, or as a 4-of, both situations and anything in between just give you bad draws way too often.  Though this is a combo deck, all the mana it needs comes from moxen and drains.  Dark ritual is a win more card, or a lose more often card.  In that, Either you were allready winning, or you drew it when u needed an answer and lost.  Why Dark ritual is being considered for slots is just disgusting. 

To CSSAMERICAN,
I agree with you in that puting a bunch cards that hurt bob synergies is wrong.  I also like your list(perhaps becuase it resembles tog), but I was curious, since you removed tog, why did you keep the same draw engine in the AK's and Intuition?  Have you tested tfk's instead?  If so, why did you turn down tfk.  Oh and props on the Duress', i put them in my build too because it plays so much like a combo deck now.

To thug,  I'm not sure if Merchant scroll is the best idea for this deck.  Yea your right that there are lots of targets, but you already have a great draw enigine and plenty of tutors, I don't think you need any merchant scrolls, unless maybe you cut one rebuild (from the 2 rebuild, 1 H's recall build) in favor of it, to limit your draws of cards you don't need right then, but will need later(my problem with cycling rebuild).  I however disagree that only one tendills is enough, often I play an early tendrills to recover some life against faster decks so I can continue to use Bob, and play the second tendills later as a finisher.

Well i think that cover all i want to say, happy Burmease New Year!! (well not really, but i missed the Chinease one)

[cssamerican]

To CSSAMERICAN,
I agree with you in that puting a bunch cards that hurt bob synergies is wrong.  I also like your list(perhaps becuase it resembles tog), but I was curious, since you removed tog, why did you keep the same draw engine in the AK's and Intuition?  Have you tested tfk's instead?  If so, why did you turn down tfk.  Oh and props on the Duress', i put them in my build too because it plays so much like a combo deck now.

Thirst for Knowledge requires you to discard an artifact for it to be an effective card advantage engine, and in my build I am only running nine artifacts, all of which are mana sources. A storm deck like this requires both cards and mana to be consistent; Thirst for Knowledge forces you to choose one or the other in many cases. The other problem I have with discarding artifacts is that it almost requires you to successfully resolve a big Will in order to win via storm because Rebuild isn't that good of a storm generator if all your artifacts are in your graveyard.

Some people might argue that Thirst for Knowledge frees up more space, but in reality it doesn't. You are forced to increase your artifact count to support Thirst for Knowledge, so in essence the same amount of cards are being dedicated to support the draw engine. The only difference is those extra cards are Sensei's Divining Tops and/or Pithing Needles instead of Accumulated Knowledge. And still you are going to run into the problem of pitching mana in order to increase you card advantage.

Intuition also allows you to tutor up game winning combinations like Rebuild, Rebuild, Will.

As a side note: I have removed the two Merchant Scrolls I had in my list. One has definitely become a second Rebuild, and the other is either going to become a Frantic Search or a Vampiric Tutor. I have tested the Frantic Search and it is pretty busted in conjunction with Tolarian Academy, and it can create havoc in a counter war in which people are counting how much blue you have available. I haven't tested Vampiric in that slot as of yet, but I imagine it will shine in certain situations as well.

[Jawman16]

Firstly, Vault is just better in the singular.  There is no reason to free up maindeck slots for Dark Ritual, either as a bad 1-of, or as a 4-of, both situations and anything in between just give you bad draws way too often.  Though this is a combo deck, all the mana it needs comes from moxen and drains.  Dark ritual is a win more card, or a lose more often card.  In that, Either you were allready winning, or you drew it when u needed an answer and lost.  Why Dark ritual is being considered for slots is just disgusting.

I can think of multiple games where Dark Ritual won me the game.  Any other card except for Black Lotus would have lost me these game.  If you want to argue whether either card should be in the combo version of the deck, then we have a different debate then my main point.  That point is that if you have one slot devoted to a single use mana source, Dark Ritual is greater then Mana Vault.  I have tested both cards in many games and this is the conclusion I have come to.  If you have tested and found different results, so be it.  If you have not tested the card and are simply conjecturing, I urge you to try the card out.  Is it dead sometimes?  Sure.  No more than Mana Vault is dead sometimes.  Does it simply win you the game when you are mana light against Smokestacks and Tangle Wires? Yes it does.  Does it let you power out Yawg Wills that would otherwise be impossible or non-lethal?  Yes it does.  Everytime I draw Ritual I have asked myself "Do I wish this is Mana Vault?"  The answer has always been no.

BTW I don't run Tinker so that again is a detriment to Mana Vault's case.