Building a MUC from scratch. Suggestions needed.

[DeMarki]

This is my MUC deck, which I'm trying to improve for the last 8 months. I have decided to run the version below, but unfortunatelly 2 slots are still open and I'm not sure what cards to use. The deck is unpowered, so is my metagame and there is no money to buy Drains/P9 for now.

Countermagic
4 Force of Will
4 Force Spike
4 Counterspell
4 Mana Leak
2 Misdirection

Card Draw/Utilities
4 Brainstorm
4 Ophidian
1 Fact or Fiction

Control/Creatures
3 Back to Basics
3 Powder Keg
2 Morphling
2 ???

Mana Base
1 Sol Ring
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
12 Island

I'm thinking that perhaps I should run either some bounce spell, or some creature stealing spell.
I would rather use 2 Control Magic or 2 Old Man of the Sea, bouncing doesn't seem necessary to me.
Which one of those 2 cards looks more suitable to this deck? ...or What else could have a place in this deck?
Suggestions needed. Thank you!

[SpencerForHire]

Why you don't splash white is beyond me, with a few changes you could be running 4 STP and 2-4 Exalted Angel which improves just about every issue you are going to face up until a powered deck comes along and plays with you like your nothing.

[DeMarki]

Why you don't splash white is beyond me, with a few changes you could be running 4 STP and 2-4 Exalted Angel which improves just about every issue you are going to face up until a powered deck comes along and plays with you like your nothing.

Well Mono Blue fits better with B2B and that's the reason I kept it that way.

[TheUprisal]

No Morphling.  Way too mana-intensive for this deck's needs.

Phids are just fine for a win condition, or even Keiga.

Let me explain Keiga.  Kills in 4 turns, has repercussions for death, and doesn't suck mana every turn. 

...But his biggest knock is that he can be targeted.  If there is a lot of targeted removal in your meta, but lots of creatures, use him.  If no creatures, don't. 

[Disburden]

You should be running Four Impulse as well as Ophidian.  Also why is there Fact of Fiction?

[Meanee]

If you're playing in a non-power area, why not play chalice... I know this sounds odd, but isn't there a lot of random aggro in a non-power meta? I know there is in the non-power meta I play in. Chalice for one is what I would refer to as freaking awesome against red-beats (which could otherwise be a difficult match-up when you're monoU without balance, stp, shackles and so on)

- meanee

[Binary]

If you're unpowered and have to stay mono-U...

-4 Force Spike
-4 Brainstorm
+4 Chalice of the Void
+4 Impulse
+2 Some bounce spell (I'm thinking Echoing Truth)

Force Spike is lame if your mana denial strategy isn't working perfectly, and Impulse is better than Brainstorm in this deck because you have so many functionally redundant cards, and therefore can afford to see three of them go to the bottom of your deck.

Chalice is awesome for sure.

And you really want some way to deal with a problem permanent once it's actually in play, that doesn't require you to wait forever for Powder Keg.

[49 Cents]

If you're playing in a non-power area, why not play chalice... I know this sounds odd, but isn't there a lot of random aggro in a non-power meta? I know there is in the non-power meta I play in. Chalice for one is what I would refer to as freaking awesome against red-beats (which could otherwise be a difficult match-up when you're monoU without balance, stp, shackles and so on)

- meanee

Chalice (and whole Mono-U) is so good because you can Drain into it. I would play it a powered area because it stops moxes..

If you can't afford Drains, don't play mono U. Play Fish or Oath or something. Everything Mono U plays requires Drains for the mana to cast it and still leave mana open to counter shit..

[DeMarki]

If you're unpowered and have to stay mono-U...

-4 Force Spike
-4 Brainstorm
+4 Chalice of the Void
+4 Impulse
+2 Some bounce spell (I'm thinking Echoing Truth)

Force Spike is lame if your mana denial strategy isn't working perfectly, and Impulse is better than Brainstorm in this deck because you have so many functionally redundant cards, and therefore can afford to see three of them go to the bottom of your deck.

Chalice is awesome for sure.

And you really want some way to deal with a problem permanent once it's actually in play, that doesn't require you to wait forever for Powder Keg.

I don't run Chalices cause my meta is unpowered and there are no 0-1cc threats to be afraid of, like Welders and stuff.

Brainstorm is >>>>> Impulse and it requires half thaty mana, it can be played 1st turn to fix your draw and it's 100% Broken if combined with a Fetchland. God why I'm a telling you those I thought you knew better than me. Impuse is only used if you run Chalices for 1, and that's the ONLY reason someone would run those over Brainstorm.

Force Spike is a great 1st turn counterspell, especially if you don't run any Moxen in order to play Mox-Mana Leak= 1st turn counter. And it's not only usable on 1st turn, many Vintage players play fast spell which force them to tap out almost in every turn of the game, especially the first 1-4 turns, so Force Spike is a great answer to all those fast aggresive players around.

How about the Old Man - Control Magic debate, which one would be more suitable in this deck?

[Binary]

Most unpowered metas have plenty of people trying to play Sligh-like aggro decks. Are you saying that no such decks exist in your meta?

As for Brainstorm, I simply have to disagree that it is better than Impulse for this particular deck, for reasons greater than Chalice for 1. Brainstorm is problematic when your opponent has a threat on the table, and you Brainstorm and see nothing but counters and land... cause guess what? Without that reshuffle you don't have an answer now and you're still not going to have an answer two turns from now. This isn't as much of a problem when your Brainstorm is likely to show you three cards that actually do three different things, all of which you may need to do over the next couple of turns.

I have played this deck quite a bit (both in testing and in tournaments of around 20 people or so) and even if I took Chalices out of the deck I'd still keep Impulse.

And while Force Spike may be a good first-turn counter, it's typically a bad counter on just about every other turn in the game. I have historically had enough problems getting Mana Leak to work after about turn 3, let alone Force Spike. (This is especially true when your opponent is tapping lands like Mishra's Workshop or Tolarian Academy to play spells.) Every time your opponent resolves a threat they didn't have to tap out for, you're going to wish that Force Spike was something else.

As for Control Magic or Old Man of the Sea, I think that depends on whether you expect Oath and Gifts (Control Magic) or aggro and Welder Stax (Old Man).

[DeMarki]

And while Force Spike may be a good first-turn counter, it's typically a bad counter on just about every other turn in the game. I have historically had enough problems getting Mana Leak to work after about turn 3, let alone Force Spike. (This is especially true when your opponent is tapping lands like Mishra's Workshop or Tolarian Academy to play spells.) Every time your opponent resolves a threat they didn't have to tap out for, you're going to wish that Force Spike was something else.

Later on Force Spike can be pitched to either FoW or Misdirection, so I don't see where the problem might be.

[Binary]

And while Force Spike may be a good first-turn counter, it's typically a bad counter on just about every other turn in the game. I have historically had enough problems getting Mana Leak to work after about turn 3, let alone Force Spike. (This is especially true when your opponent is tapping lands like Mishra's Workshop or Tolarian Academy to play spells.) Every time your opponent resolves a threat they didn't have to tap out for, you're going to wish that Force Spike was something else.

Later on Force Spike can be pitched to either FoW or Misdirection, so I don't see where the problem might be.

Because there are any of a number of other spells that can also be pitched to FoW and Misdirection which don't become lame after Turn 2 in today's environment.

Heck, in today's Gifts-happy environment I'd play Dissipate before I played Force Spike.

[DeMarki]

And while Force Spike may be a good first-turn counter, it's typically a bad counter on just about every other turn in the game. I have historically had enough problems getting Mana Leak to work after about turn 3, let alone Force Spike. (This is especially true when your opponent is tapping lands like Mishra's Workshop or Tolarian Academy to play spells.) Every time your opponent resolves a threat they didn't have to tap out for, you're going to wish that Force Spike was something else.

Later on Force Spike can be pitched to either FoW or Misdirection, so I don't see where the problem might be.

Because there are any of a number of other spells that can also be pitched to FoW and Misdirection which don't become lame after Turn 2 in today's environment.

Heck, in today's Gifts-happy environment I'd play Dissipate before I played Force Spike.

Listen, this kind of control deck is relativelly slow in comparison to many aggro/combo decks that are willing to tear it apart. That means that a 1st turn counter, aside of FoW/Misdirection, would be a very helpfull addition. The thing is that Force Spike is not only a good 1st turn counter, but a decent counter even in midgame, considering that Vintage is so fast and players usually drain their mana pool in order to finish the game as quick as possible.
Don't forget that if your opponent sees that you're running Spikes, even if you haven't any in hand, he will definitelly consider not tapping out, meaning that he will slow down his play in order to avoid the Spikes and thats good for you. 6 Pitchspells(FoW/Misdirection) mean that in mid-lategame those pesky Spikes can be easily pitched without regret.
I like to be able to cast 2 counterspells on turn 1. Don't you?

[Sgt. Pepper]

Binary: you forget (at least so it seems) that his metagame is unpowered, meaning that players actually have to play fair with their mana in order to cast their spells. Thus Force Spike is good from T1- 5 or so, perhaps even later then that.

DeMarki: even though you run Back to Basics, I would still try to splash a color. White gives you a great kill in Decree of Justice and you can use Flooded Strand to get a basic Plains if necessary. White also gives you Balance, a card that can still randomly win you the game.
Also, you should definitely try and play Control Magic maindeck. Oath is a terrible matchup, but with Control Magic you at least get a 50/50 chance of still winning the game (depending if Akroma shows up first or not). It's not a great answer, but I can't think of anything else that would be good maindeck.

[DeMarki]

DeMarki: even though you run Back to Basics, I would still try to splash a color. White gives you a great kill in Decree of Justice and you can use Flooded Strand to get a basic Plains if necessary. White also gives you Balance, a card that can still randomly win you the game.
Also, you should definitely try and play Control Magic maindeck. Oath is a terrible matchup, but with Control Magic you at least get a 50/50 chance of still winning the game (depending if Akroma shows up first or not). It's not a great answer, but I can't think of anything else that would be good maindeck.

In my metagame I have never seen Oath, mostly rogue Aggro and some fast artifact based decks so perhaps Old Man would be a better idea for 1-2 main slots rather than Control Magic. At least he can swing his wooden stick for 2, not bad for an old man like him, huh? 

[allstarhunk69]

I mean if you are not running Mana Drains I would definately cut atleast 1 morphling, run something like Masticore instead =).  Personally, I prefer Daze over Force Spike for later counterbattles, where they are going to tap out trying to counter your counters, or maybe even try to go broken and combo out on you. It definately comes in handy when all you gotta do is return a tapped Island to your hand . I definately think Impulses too should be added, nothing like digging through your deck at an extremely cheap cc.  I mean if you are playing maindeck B2B...maybe Null Rod would compliment it? Ofcourse the Kegs would get dropped maybe for Control Magic or even Echoing Truths or 2 truths + 1 capsize?

[Manpriest]

Well, I'm going to attempt some advice here, though hopefully the replies will not be so hostile by the op as they appear to be above...

1) Yes, Impulse is much better than brainstorm in this deck, seriously try it before just dismissing everyone like we don't know shit.

2) You must, repeat, must add either some bounce or more board control.  As it stands your only method of removing ANYTHING that resolves is via a keg...minor problem there.  Also, if there's a lot of random aggro running around you'll probably need a way to deal with vial sooner or later.

3) Unpowered MUC...possibly run a wish engine?  Something to think about as you can vary your kill mech slightly so you're not so vulnerable to a resolved extraction/cap/whatever.  Also, I'd like to say I vote highly on the side of splashing white as well, solves so many problems with so many decks (I.E. disenchant, balance, StP, etc...).

Just a few thoughts.

[DeMarki]

I mean if you are not running Mana Drains I would definately cut atleast 1 morphling, run something like Masticore instead =).  Personally, I prefer Daze over Force Spike for later counterbattles, where they are going to tap out trying to counter your counters, or maybe even try to go broken and combo out on you. It definately comes in handy when all you gotta do is return a tapped Island to your hand . I definately think Impulses too should be added, nothing like digging through your deck at an extremely cheap cc.  I mean if you are playing maindeck B2B...maybe Null Rod would compliment it? Ofcourse the Kegs would get dropped maybe for Control Magic or even Echoing Truths or 2 truths + 1 capsize?

Masticore kinda sucks in this deck, the last thing you need is an enormous card disadvantage.

I'm not sure whether Daze > Force Spike, but I want to have decent 1st turn counters and Daze ruins my tempo by forcing me to return an Island to my hand and I dont like that. Perhaps later on it's better than Spike, but I'm mostly worried of the first turns.

Capsize? I thought that no one ever played this card? Isn't Echoing Truth better?

[allstarhunk69]

Hmm enormous card disadvantage? Last I knew Ophidian was card advantage-with multiple Phids out you are going to be discarding anyways, masticore also eats little pests be it Confidants, Welders..oh yeah and he regenerates ^_^

You want decent 1st turn counters? Im pretty sure that every other deck does just fine with FoW's. Force Spike is trash, I mean Daze isnt exactly the next Ancestral but its 100x better than Spike, I would also reccommend maybe MD Annul? How are MD Remoras? Ive never tried them out but Id imagine they would be nifty.

As for capsize, naturally most decks will not run it due to its buyback cost, since combo/aggro combo decks wont be buying it back Echoing Truth is obviously better, but Mono U has always utilized Capsize (probably the only deck that has consistantly used it), not only is it pitchable but it works wonders mid-late game.

[Anusien]

What sort of meta are you working for?  If you're working on Mono-U, I'd start with Ben Kowal's last list from the dailiest.  http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10435.html.  I disagree with Shackles depending on your meta, because they seem like an awful way to deal with Welders and Fish creatures, but they can also theoretically steal Oath creatures.  The Disrupts are exceedingly hot, but sort of crappy versus Stax, so Your Mileage May Vary.  I would be questionable why you want to play Mono-U at all.  It seems to have strategic inferiority to Gifts and CS, which run 8 good counters and then can accidentally win the game.  You have to agonizingly beat with Ophidians for 10 turns (Morphling takes up too much mana, and doesn't hit until turn 6 or something anyway).  In an unpowered metagame, there are much more attractive options like FCG.

[DeMarki]

What sort of meta are you working for?  If you're working on Mono-U, I'd start with Ben Kowal's last list from the dailiest.  If you're working on Mono-U, I'd start with Ben Kowal's last list from the dailiest.  http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10435.html.

Well as I mentioned before, my meta is mostly some random rogue aggro decks, some artifact based decks and almost no Oath/Stax/Combo.
Mostly kinda casual towards competative wanna be stuff, no power of course. And that's good for me since I'm the one that runs stuff like FoW, Library and Morphlings.

Regarding the Disrupt/Stiflel debate: I know that vs certain decks and strategies Stifle or Disrupt could be really really good, but since my metagame is totally random but mostly aggro, that means that Stifle & Disrupts aren't that effective, perhaps even useless vs some decks, so I rather run 4 Force Spikes(Legend ones of course  ) and deal with every kind of 1st turn Spell.

Now regarding Daze: I'm not really that sure why people prefer Daze than Force Spike, because during the first turns returning an Island to your hand is not the best thing to do. Perhaps later that's not an issue, but I don't understand why Force Spike is underplayed.

[DeMarki]

Would you run Chalice+Impulse in an totally unpowered enviroment with no really competative decks?
If there aren't any Moxen/Welders would Chalice still be a good choice?
Ok, there is lots of Aggro and Artifacts, but does it justify the presence of Chalice and therefore Impulse instead of the 1cc Brainstorm?

[Jacob Orlove]

If the environment is unpowered, why are you building Mono-U in the first place?

[DeMarki]

If the environment is unpowered, why are you building Mono-U in the first place?

Because I always liked this deck, plus I have all the cards and unfortunatelly I don't have a single Dual.

[DeMarki]

As for Brainstorm, I simply have to disagree that it is better than Impulse for this particular deck, for reasons greater than Chalice for 1. Brainstorm is problematic when your opponent has a threat on the table, and you Brainstorm and see nothing but counters and land... cause guess what? Without that reshuffle you don't have an answer now and you're still not going to have an answer two turns from now. This isn't as much of a problem when your Brainstorm is likely to show you three cards that actually do three different things, all of which you may need to do over the next couple of turns.

Brainstorm is superior to Impusle because of the second mana requirement. In a format where the crucial turn is on average 1.5, the Impulse puts you behind on the race for virtual card advantage/card quality even though it digs one card deeper. I don't think the trade off one card deeper for one turn later is justifiable. I've tried playing Impulse for a while, but every time I draw it, I'd rather have drawn a brainstorm.

[rmn]

Props for playing Force Spike.  It's excellent.

But what's all this talk about Control Magic and Old Man?  For the same price, I hear that Vedalken Shackles is pretty freaking awesome.

I would consider cutting the Morphlings as well, since you're not playing Drains, but offhand I couldn't tell you what to replace them with.

As for Brainstorm, I simply have to disagree that it is better than Impulse for this particular deck, for reasons greater than Chalice for 1. Brainstorm is problematic when your opponent has a threat on the table, and you Brainstorm and see nothing but counters and land... cause guess what? Without that reshuffle you don't have an answer now and you're still not going to have an answer two turns from now. This isn't as much of a problem when your Brainstorm is likely to show you three cards that actually do three different things, all of which you may need to do over the next couple of turns.

Brainstorm is superior to Impusle because of the second mana requirement. In a format where the crucial turn is on average 1.5, the Impulse puts you behind on the race for virtual card advantage/card quality even though it digs one card deeper. I don't think the trade off one card deeper for one turn later is justifiable. I've tried playing Impulse for a while, but every time I draw it, I'd rather have drawn a brainstorm.

Regarding this, I don't actually think that his metagame has a critical turn of 1.5 since it's unpowered.  I personally think Impulse is better, but it's a personal thing.  I like Opt too, and I would play it over Brainstorm in this deck also, since in my experience 4 fetches isn't enough to make Brainstorm good.

[DeMarki]

Props for playing Force Spike.  It's excellent.

But what's all this talk about Control Magic and Old Man?  For the same price, I hear that Vedalken Shackles is pretty freaking awesome.

I would consider cutting the Morphlings as well, since you're not playing Drains, but offhand I couldn't tell you what to replace them with.

Brainstorm is superior to Impusle because of the second mana requirement. In a format where the crucial turn is on average 1.5, the Impulse puts you behind on the race for virtual card advantage/card quality even though it digs one card deeper. I don't think the trade off one card deeper for one turn later is justifiable. I've tried playing Impulse for a while, but every time I draw it, I'd rather have drawn a brainstorm.

Regarding this, I don't actually think that his metagame has a critical turn of 1.5 since it's unpowered.  I personally think Impulse is better, but it's a personal thing.  I like Opt too, and I would play it over Brainstorm in this deck also, since in my experience 4 fetches isn't enough to make Brainstorm good.

Well, I prefer Force Spike to Daze since I get to counter a 1st turn spell and have 2 lands on turn 2 in order to cast Counterspell or Mana Drain. You cannot manage this with Daze, you'll be doomed to still have only land on turn 2 and thats something you  might regret.

I dislike Shackles, especially with all the artifact hate around, at least Old Man is a decent creature and it counts as an alternative winning condition.

I'm planning on getting some Drains later. so Morphling will stay. The problem is once I get my Drains, what counters should I remove? Since I don't run any moxen I can't get a 1st turn Mana Leak anyway, so perhaps I should cut the Mana Leaks.

[Revvik]

If you find yourself getting destroyed by aggro decks, consider Propaganda or Chill as well.

If you're looking for anti-aggro strategies, start by analyzing your opponents.
Here are some "random aggro deck" frontrunner creatures:

Kird Ape
Savannah Lions
Grim Lavamancer
Hound of Konda

These creatures all have a casting cost of 1.  In fact, the most efficient hoser for R/G beats, a common aggro deck, is to lay down a Chalice of the Void for one.  Protect it, and win.  Even some typical aggro cards like Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares are shut down.  Of course, this means redesigning your deck a little.

Brainstorm and Force Spike have got to go.  Force Spike, as mentioned above, can be swapped card-for-card with Chalice of the Void.  Brainstorm can be switched with the cantrip of your choice.  Impulse works well, although no one has really made mention of trying Telling Time yet.  I personally ran a fully powered version with Thirst, but the general consensus is that it was pretty terrible.

There's even some techy additions to your deck you can make, like Ancient Tomb to add some more (albeit colorless) acceleration to fuel larger, quicker Chalices or to play faster sideboard cards like Propaganda and Arcane Lab.

As far as creature control, Vedalken Shackles is such a good card.  Too bad 'random aggro decks' tend to run things like Null Rod and artifact hate.  Your best bet is not to waste maindeck slots on cards that control creatures, and instead try a strategy that trumps aggro strategies altogether.  Morphling was the mobile Moat of years past, and now there are other options, all with their pros and cons.

Masticore - hit by Null Rod, although he can easily put the opponent on the defensive.  His drawback is negligible if you manage your resources and get some uses out of Ophidian.
Keiga, the Tide Star - I dislike this as an alternative.  Against Oath, he is an expensive answer to a creature that comes out for two mana.  His big body and built-in protection can almost always mean a two-for-one trade in combat.
Meloku, the Clouded Mirror - not yet mentioned (I believe - I skimmed), Meloku is a great silver bullet strategy if you can survive to the long game.

[DeMarki]

As far as creature control, Vedalken Shackles is such a good card.  Too bad 'random aggro decks' tend to run things like Null Rod and artifact hate.  Your best bet is not to waste maindeck slots on cards that control creatures, and instead try a strategy that trumps aggro strategies altogether.

Since my meta is unpowered and most decks are aggro rogue why is it a bad idea to run only 2 cards that control creatures main? I prefer using Old Man since he's a decent creature that can attack or block and his ability is really awesome against many creatures. He isn't a dead card and don't forget that he can be pitched to either FoW or Misdirection in comparison to Shackles which can be really useless sometimes.

[Revvik]

I neglected to mention Old Man of the Sea because of his cost (real-life), and the fact alone that he is a creature.  Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares are very commonly run cards.
Like I said, running creatures like Meloku and Morphling should do wonders for answering aggro decks, and you can always try the better universal answer of Powder Keg....