Savannah Lions? In Type One? What the...

[kirdape3]

No lies, I played that tonight at SCG Rochester.  And came in 10th, last player at 5-1-1.

Here's the list and why I made the changes:

4 Savannah Lions
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Stormscape Apprentice
4 Meddling Mage
4 True Believer

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Null Rod
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
2 Plains
2 Island

Sideboard:
4 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Seal of Cleansing
3 Last Breath
3 Pithing Needle
1 Swords to Plowshares

The reason that this deck is constructed the way it is is that traditional U/W Fish has a serious design flaw - it doesn't actually kill the opponent even after it completely locks the board down with it's disruption.  Cards like Cloud of Faeries literally aren't worth the card that they consume in your deck just because a 1 power flier for 2 mana had better do something ridiculous like Extract them every time it hits.  Savannah Lions and Isamaru are both really good at actually killing the opponent when you knock them off their mana.

Every card in the maindeck is actually correct.  Chalice of the Void and Null Rod are both involved simply because in order to win some games you HAVE to have one or both of those cards.  This brings the level of disruption up, yet another thing that's improved over a traditional Fish list.  Brainstorm replaces Standstill because there are exactly zero ways to provide a clock if you don't have one (therefore you can only cast it when you're winning, therefore it's unnecessary).  Speaking of Mishra's Factory, they junk up the manabase far too much to run it.  You have to hit W (W/U) on turn 2 almost without fail to ramp up the clock properly, and Factory just doesn't tap for a colored mana like you need it to.  Stormscape Apprentice is the worst card, and even then it's both blue (so you can toss it to Force of Will when you need to) and it taps Darksteel Kevin so your legions can smash in.

Kataki's slot is a tag-team affair with True Believer in the sideboard.  If you expect more Workshops than Mana Drains, you tag in the Legendary Spirit and battle with that guy.  Both are needed, and in the aggro matchups both should be in your deck as they both attack and block if necessary.  Last Breath is savage against the U/W mirror, but I'm thinking that if I want a creature for the mirror I either want Sea Drake, Serendib Efreet, or even one of the monster Exalted Angels to fire at the enemy.  They're just so big and hard to contain that it's better than trying to blast their creatures out of the way.  Crusade is also an option but I want my threats to be more diffuse than one giant one - I'd get to bring in EVEN MORE creatures with one in the Last Breath slot, and as we all know creatures are some good, being able to attack and all.

I played against a ton of Mana Drain decks and the only match I lost was because my opponent successfully used Gorilla Shaman against my disruption artifacts.  Most of the time I'd keep them off their mana or they'd Oath up Colossus only to see what Stormscape Apprentice does.  The aggro mirrors I played against (I demolished Ray Miller and one of the guys on Team Nonesence who played their Canadian U/W Fish list) were pretty decisively in my favor as my early beatdown really kept them on the back foot and/or when I activated Wasteland they stopped successfully playing mana to defend themselves against my 2 power creatures.

I'm fully convinced that this is the direction that U/W Fish should travel.  This deck has superior offensive firepower to current U/W Fish lists and superior disruption - the nature of the threats just changed.  Another reason to play this form of the deck is that Vintage players are traditionally awful at combat mathematics and mechanics, and this deck punishes them so well for that flaw.  If anything, it's absolutely the perfect deck for someone long on practice in Premier-level formats and only a 'textbook' knowledge of Vintage (to name your Chalice and Meddling Mage calls properly).  Tell me what you think.

[ReAnimator]

What are your thoughts on Daze and Ninja?

they both seem to have a lot of synergy with your decks stratagies. Apprentice loves the ninja , and Daze loves the mana denial.

or would this make it too close to the Canadian UW list?

[kirdape3]

Ninja actually isn't that good because you'll draw him without a one-drop and now you'll cry.  Big deal, he draws you a card.  My initial testing list had two of them but they ended up being awful.

Daze doesn't do anything after turn 3.  Despite this deck being pretty fast, it's not going to close out the opponent before that irrelevancy becomes apparent.

[sean1i0]

The deck looks nice.  I like the True Believers, too; they look like they could be able to really cause a lot of opponents fits.  Do you find that just four counterspells is too little?  That's the only thing that I can think of right off the bat that I would really like if I were to play this deck:  Just four Force of Will seems too few counters.  Of course it's also worthwhile noting that I don't see anything immediately that seems like it could come out either....

[Imsomniac101]

Great to see people still innovating with Fish. How did Isamaru work out for you? I personally would have replaced them with Rootwater Thieves, as they pitch to FoW and in some matchups can seal the game in 2-3 turns by themselves. But they are mana intensive. Thoughts?

Did you set Chalice to anything other than 0? And if so what at and how often?

[[FtN|FH] Negator]

Hi, nice to so such a interesting decklist. I do have some questions/suggestions:

- What about Tinker/Darksteel Colossus? You play 10 artifacts and 4 brainstorms. So having to less artifacts or being annoyed by a Darksteel Colossus on hand should not be a big problem. It could add your deck a "random" very fast clock.

- You say you play Null Rod AND Chalice to get at least on of them every game. I understand that but on the other hand it looks a bit overkill to me. Have you tryed Kataki over Null Rod or over Chalice maindeck? It works against artefacts too but it has a boddy that can attack for two.

- What do you think about Samurai of the pale curtain? I don't like it as a maindeck card but it might be worth a sideboard slot. It can be used against others aggro decks too with its 2/2 + Bushido 1.

[Sgt. Pepper]

First, congrats on your finish. It's good to hear that Fish still has a shot in this metagame.

Now for some questions:

- You only play 17 blue cards. Is this enough to support a card like Force of Will?
- What advantage does this deck have over U/G(/w) fish? Savannah Lions is okay, but it's no Wild Mongrel or Basking Rootwalla.
- Is Black Lotus good enough in this deck? Just asking since it gets stopped by Chalice/Rod, sucks against Welder and you don't have any expensive spells.
- Why play Last Breath sideboard instead of Jitte?
- Is 4 Mage, + 4 FoW + 4 Seal of Cleansing enough to beat Oath?
- Why Seal above Disenchant? I know both have their merits, just wanna know why you've chosen one above the other.

[kirdape3]

Force of Will sat in my hand a couple of times, but when I did cast it it was truly devastating.  The number of blue cards may be off by one, but that's about it.  I don't need additional counters because what do I cut, offense?  This is as close as a Vintage deck should be to pure aggression.

The advantage that this deck has over WTF is that you have both increased disruption (both Chalices and Rods are amazing) and a far more stable mana base.  Wild Mongrel and friends are really good, but I got a lot of mileage out of having a really stable mana base and most of the offensive firepower.

Lotus is RETARDED.  Here was one of my plays round 1:

Tundra -> Ancestral Recall
Lotus, sacrifice for White, Isamaru, True Believer, go.

At the end of my second turn, I had 8 power on the board.  Good Game.

Jitte costs effectively four mana.  If they off my guy in response to that equipment, I've probably just lost my early game tempo and maybe the game.  Last Breath also tags Old Man of the Sea a lot better.  I'm considering Crusade in that slot.

4 Mage, 4 Force of Will, 3 Stormscape Apprentice, 4 Plow, 4 Seal of Cleansing.  I'll fight that fight.  I played against Oath, where I locked him out of mana totally then let Apprentice be the first creature I cast.  Yes, I won that game.

Seal means I tap my mana when I want to to destroy something, like turn 2, whereas Disenchant makes me wait until the target is there.

Rootwater Thief, good man that he is, simply doesn't have 2 power.  If he was a 2/1, or even a bear, then he would be an auto-include.

Chalice got set at 0 and 1 most of the time.  1 was after I had played out much of my hand obviously, or had a bunch of bears.

Tinker/Kevin is a fine idea, but it would actually be four slots: Merchant Scroll, Mystical Tutor, Tinker, and Colossus.  I don't have four cuts in this deck to make for something that gets destroyed by Welder.

I've tried Kataki in every slot, but I'm convinced in the viability of both disruption elements.  The best slot for him is to tag in for True Believer in the Midwest where Workshops abound.

Samurai of the Pale Curtain doesn't have enough of a disruptive effect, although he is a beating in combat.  I'd just rather have Crusade in that slot in the board, however.

Keep the thoughts coming - I'd love to hear what the Canadians think, since they loved the Last Breath technology.

[Fantaman]

Hi man, if you can play Kataky main deck...it's a wonderfull power card against every Tier1 deck with moxes...and a little bit help against Staxx.

Then put Orims chant in the sideboard.

My opinion!

Probably isamaru are not sooo strong....insert kataky!

[Sgt. Pepper]

Force of Will sat in my hand a couple of times, but when I did cast it it was truly devastating.  The number of blue cards may be off by one, but that's about it.

Perhaps a couple of Lions/Hounds could be replaced by Flying Men? It ain't exactly a beatstick, but he's blue and the evasion ability might matter against fish.

Jitte costs effectively four mana.  If they off my guy in response to that equipment, I've probably just lost my early game tempo and maybe the game.  Last Breath also tags Old Man of the Sea a lot better.  I'm considering Crusade in that slot.

I agree that Last Breath is better against an Old Man (it's also more flavourable). However, even if your guy gets killed in response to a Jitte it shouldn't matter. If they don't kill or neutralize the Jitte in time, that loss in tempo will mean shit if you kill all of their creatures, gain a ton of life or beat them to a pulp. Even a single attack can take out two of their creatures. They just can't effectively hope to race you with a Jitte on the board.

Seal means I tap my mana when I want to to destroy something, like turn 2, whereas Disenchant makes me wait until the target is there

I understand that, but Disenchant can be cast in your upkeep against Tangle Wire, and isn't affected by Pithing Needle or Suppression Field. The Seal might still come on top, just though I'd point that out and wandered I've you've though about it.

Another question: does this deck stand a chance against Goblins? It's not exactly the best deck in the world, but in some metagames it is defiantly relevant.

[kirdape3]

Savannah Lion is a beatstick.  Flying Men is a wasted card.  2/x creatures are better than 1/x creatures.

They can't effectively race you anyways.  Their creatures are all 1/1s and maybe a push on the Meddling Mage front, but you have something like three or four extra removal and seven extra creatures postboard.  Umezawa's Jitte is cute, but not terribly needed.

I thought about it, but I figured that I wouldn't see Needle naming Seal of Cleansing - there's no reason to bring that card in versus me unless you desperately needed to hit Wasteland.

If you're worried about Goblins, board in Chill.  They don't have a very stable manabase, and you neutralize their early offense with your creatures and removal.

[Fantaman]

Probably Flying men it's better with Ninja!

Otherwise in italy now some players put Jitte on the sideboard against the last aggro or goblin that survive in the meta.

Try it.

[kirdape3]

I did.  Obviously.  It's the most retarded piece of equipment ever printed, and a natural fit in most aggro decks...

Except this one.  I mean that entirely.  You won't want to spend the mana to equip it, since you have better things to do with it.  Such as cast more creatures, or blast theirs out of the way.  I don't play that card in a similarly-curved deck in Extended for the same reasons.

[Fantaman]

The Fact is that isamaru is not a great card.... you play only one of them...and others will be dead meat in your hand.....

take another way to isamaru...put kataky....more more more broken against tier 1 decks!

[kirdape3]

Kataki doesn't cost 1 mana.  Have you played Extended Boros Deck Wins?  That was the inspiration - you have to have a real mana curve in this deck.

[Fantaman]

I know that kataky doesn't cost like isamaru...but it's better...more powerfull because increase your broken cards against artifats.
Than you need to draw something and without ninjas this Wu tang it's not competitive...

You play lots of white creatures....it's more simple to play a WW.

Some cards like True beliver are not sooo powerfull if you look yourmana base because they costs 2 white mana....

than in these month TPS tendril decks are not sooo easy to find...only 5% on a tournament....

you may change isamaru and true beliver.

only my opinion.

 

[kirdape3]

Here's what True Believer does:

Gifts Ungiven, Mindslaver, Tendrils of Agony, and others cannot be put on the stack targetting me.  That's pretty important.

Kataki is in fact a fine man, and in the central United States where Workshops are far more liable to be encountered then you should maindeck him over True Believer.  However, this deck does not want to violate the idea of a mana curve - so what if the card is individually less powerful.  That's the original principle that Jay Schneider built around the deck named for Paul Sligh - the mana curve and maximizing your mana.  Each game you open with no turn 1 play is handing your opponent a Time Walk that you can't afford.

[diamond66]

I think in the metagame that is the NE, there is no reason to really run Kataki main deck.  Unless you have perfect clarity that the metagame you run into here is NOT definted by mana drain, True Believer is an absolute bomb.  The deck can support it, and the savage advantage it gives against gifts and slaver, let alone all sorts of tendrils based combo makes him a must counter.  When you know that your opponent can't win uless they deal with your 2/2, you are much more able to be aggressive and select with pinpoint accuracy what threats against you need to be countered.  In all, I think this was an extremely insightful maindeck addition to fight the metagame that was expected.

[Nastaboi]

A while ago I had a thought about playing both Null Rod and Chalice in a Fish deck, but you actually did it. Mad props to you for that. I have couple of questions:

For what are Pithing Needles in you SB? You might have enough hate against Dragon and Belcher even without.

What is your plan against decks that can board in or Burning Wish for Pyroclasm? Even losing two critters to it hurts badly. I am leaning towards Blue Elemental Blast, while Crusade saves 60% of your team which might also be enough. Pyroclasm really seems like a foil to the deck and needs to be taken into consideration.

[Fubar]

Samurai of the Pale Curtain doesn't have enough of a disruptive effect, although he is a beating in combat.  I'd just rather have Crusade in that slot in the board, however.

??? Please explain.  I'm convinced that hosing graveyards is one of the most powerful disruptions you can do in a normal meta.  Is samurai not one of the best weenies you could have?  This card shuts down most of the top strategies (gifts, yawgwill, welder & TFK, dragon, blessing in oath, etc. . .)
A resolved samurai becomes a must counter or its gg against many.  Samurai is the canadian tech right now
Don't you recomend Silver Knight against gobbos, taking out believer?
Congrats on your placement, its a damn good weenie version.

[Klep]

Samurai of the Pale Curtain doesn't have enough of a disruptive effect, although he is a beating in combat.  I'd just rather have Crusade in that slot in the board, however.

??? Please explain.  I'm convinced that hosing graveyards is one of the most powerful disruptions you can do in a normal meta.  Is samurai not one of the best weenies you could have? 

Samurai only stops permanents from going to the graveyard.  It does very little to weaken Yawgmoth's Will, and decks which utilize Welder can easily work around it.

[kirdape3]

As long as I don't do something stupid, they can 2 for 1 me on a Pyroclasm.  That actually happened to me in the second round - but the creatures were Stormscape Apprentices.  If I get Clasmed, I still usually have gas.

BEB would be nice against Dragon, but I'm not really worried about the specific card Clasm.  If I am, I'd run Crusade over BEB in a heartbeat since now that makes a lot of my creatures 3/3s and that's going to be enough to brawl them.

Against Goblins, I'd recommend Absolute Law, but definitely keep every creature you have in the deck postboard (including boarding the remaining ones in).  They block.

[Buttons]

I'm just going to say it.

You are a genius.  Savannah Lions = BRILLIANT.

Not only I think, is this one of the most mind-boggling OBVIOUS conclusions to ever grace the forums, but I think it's a damn good conclusion.

A 2/1 groundie against a 1/1 flyer in vintage - the 2/1 should win out every time.  The only thing that I think might be an issue is Isamaru - the card, to me, just seems bad.  The card's absolutely dead if you have one down and you draw into another - could we maybe lower the number to 2, and put some other tech in there?

[Fubar]

Samurai only stops permanents from going to the graveyard. It does very little to weaken Yawgmoth's Will, and decks which utilize Welder can easily work around it.

I thought a first turn samurai on the play would completely hose both strategies.  On the draw, well they probably don't know its coming, thus didn't play accordingly.  It becomes a "deal with me now" weenie.  Therefore it buys time with which to make the best call with mage.  The package of believer and samurai is a vicious crew.

[rureddy31]

Did I play you round 4 Kird? I was playing Control Slaver and kept saying that if I lost to Isamaru and Savannah Lions in T1, I would never live it down. Anyway, on paper, the deck looks like junk, to be perfectly honest, but I was extremely impressesd with it in action. I definetly like it better than the other fish decks. I agree with you 100% when you say that Cloud of Faeries is a waste of a card. Couldn't agree more. Anyways, good job. You were definetly a fun opponent, you and you're white bordered Chalices!!!

[austinnadz]

I was the:

Lotus is RETARDED.  Here was one of my plays round 1:

Tundra -> Ancestral Recall
Lotus, sacrifice for White, Isamaru, True Believer, go.

At the end of my second turn, I had 8 power on the board.  Good Game.

opponent. The deck showed some awesome potential. I was playing bridshit against him. What would I meddling mage, honestly? That turn one lions is savage, but, wtf? Would I mage the hound which he can only play a one of (at a time)? Do I mage the true believer when I don't have anything that really targets him? This deck was awesome to see in action. Our last match came down literally to the last turn, where it was you with enough blockers, and me with not just enough for a kill.

I think even one crusade in the deck would do wonders. It's force bait for your opponent, who likes a 3/2 or 3/3 swinging at them when they can prevent it? It is pyroclasm avoidance, and how many type one creatures that aren't crazy casting cost (or played avoiding the casting cost) are greater than 1/1 or 2/2? Think about the turn one lotus, crusade, lions/hound? Then turn two you've open mana for two more lions/hounds or a believer... You're still playing the curv with a crusade, even as a one of.

Also I noticed that silver knight was suggested. That's a very good idea against goblins. It would eat every single goblin they could ever play (especially accompanied by a crusade!). Side board them if you feel goblins as a potential threat for the day.

Nice job rendering the deck and I give you props for being brave enough to play it, and whats better, pull through with it. I look forward to playing you again.

[Nantuko Rice]

every fish deck looks like junk on paper

have you tried... aether vial over null rod and then playing around with the creature base to play kataki? Kataki basically serves as a null rod except you get to keep your vial working. Most of your creatures are 2/2's.

this new "more aggressive" type of UW Fish is definately something to look into... lock pieces on bodies kills 2 birds with one stone. and that's why kataki would just seam ideal for that idea.

the main problem however is... pyroclasm, and reb. I imagine you could mage pyroclasm, and then drop chalice for 1 against rebs? again, creature base can be toyed around with for more 2 drops. or something.

[Imsomniac101]

The deck showed some awesome potential. I was playing bridshit against him. What would I meddling mage, honestly? That turn one lions is savage, but, wtf? Would I mage the hound which he can only play a one of (at a time)? Do I mage the true believer when I don't have anything that really targets him? This deck was awesome to see in action. Our last match came down literally to the last turn, where it was you with enough blockers, and me with not just enough for a kill.

I think the correct play would have been to call True Believer with Mage. The reason being that it prevents your opponent from swarming you. You could have called Mage but that would prevent you from dropping more blockers; you could have named Swords but that would prevent you from removing his creatures. You could have named another creature (Stormscape Appr. is a good call).
The only other solid play would be to name Chalice of the Void if you feared it being set at one. But then that would cut off his own creatures and StP, so that would be a bigger loss for him.

@Kird:
Whilst playing your deck I noticed a few things:
a) your deck played a whole lot like White Weenie, in fact I was fetching basic Plains more than I was fetching Islands.
b) 4x FoW isn't very adequate even when backed up by Null Rod, Chalice.
c) I would almost never set Chalice at X=1 because it cut off far too many cards. I realize that it is a late game play, but by then the value of Chalice would have gone down significantly.
d) it is hard to support WW when going against Wastes.
e) i didnt really like drawing both Isamaru and Lion in the same hand in multiples.

Just wondering if it were just a difference in the way you played the deck. BtW, good job on cutting chaff like Factory and Faerie, I always thought they were suboptimal, but i didnt know how to replace the factories.

[kirdape3]

AEther Vial's nice but slow.  I'd rather just cast my creatures since if they Mana Drain them they won't hardly get enough mana to work with, and Vial puts a one-turn extra cost on creatures.  The combination of Rod and Chalice is very necessary here, and it gives you an almost certainty of seeing one when you need it.

As for Crusade: The maindeck is entirely right, but Crusade is probably going to sneak into the board over Last Breath because it knocks out both Pyroclasm and Old Man.  If I was worried about Goblins, I'd tag in Absolute Law instead of Silver Knight, since now ALL of my guys block and don't die.

He didn't really have a good call in the one game that I detailed, but most of the time Mage couldn't hit anything relevant without stunting himself.  He never saw Stormscape I don't think, either.

a) is correct.  Most of the time you go for Plains, but if they don't have Wastes then you just go get Tundras.
b) You don't really need more counterspells, since you literally just want to make them play around the bad ones and Force just means that they can't catch up.  Daze is really not good and neither are any of the alternatives.
c) Chalice isn't nearly as good after the first couple of turns.  Both Chalice 1 and Chalice 2 are really detrimental to this deck.
d) Fetch basic Plains.  Each fetchland in the deck goes and gets them.
e) I LOVE drawing those guys, except multiple Isamarus.  They're not liable to kill the first one, so extras are worse than dead.

I play this deck very aggressively, and seek to lead with offensive before disruptive elements.  That's why people always think that it's not constructed very well - it fits a far more active gameplan than most Fish pilots are used to.

[Prometheon]

Just a question; have you tested Abolish main or in the side? It's friggin awesome and honestly never dead. Sometimes your opponent will lay down a land and a mox, and they you go "waste, abolish, go." and watch them cry.