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Author Topic: Is MD Gifts Better with an Oath Splash? My thought from SCG Rochester  (Read 2990 times)
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« on: December 12, 2005, 01:08:46 am »

I realize that the Gifts Oath deck is nothing new, and made top 8 at the Chicago SCG event, but I felt that after my hours of testing and play for this past weekend's SCG Rochester, that the Mean Deck version of the deck was significantly stronger and less succeptible to hate after adding Oath than it was before.  I know that this is a fairly strong statement, and one which I do not take lightly, but before I get into match-up analysis and the data that I collected, I present the list I played to a 12th place finish over the weekend.

Gifts Oath

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt

4 Oath Of Druids

1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Razia, Boros Archangel

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Leak
3 Gifts Ungiven
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Krosan Reclamation
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Rebuild
1 Mystical Tutor

1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Burning Wish
1 Regrowth
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Recoup
1 Tinker

2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Forbidden Orchard
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Tolarian Academy

SB
2 R.E.B
1 Pyroblast
3 Oxidize
2 Annul
2 Ground Seal
2 Pithing Needle
1 Balance
1 Triskelion
1 Tendrils of Agony

The deck is exceptionally resistant to hate, especially given the fact that an early unanswered Oath is incredibly strong right now.  As soon as the field begins to seriously prepare for Oath this may change, but with the apparent reemergance of Control Salver as a viable deck choice (did it honestly ever go away?), I don't know if one can prepare to face Stax, Oath, and Slaver at once.  In a pick your poison metagame such as what we have seen lately, it appears that Oath is getting the least recognition.  As far as match-ups go, this is what I found in my testing.

Control Slaver:  The two players I tested with were especially interested in winning the GWS Oath match, and they found that they had a great deal of trouble with the deck running a traditional Slaver build, so in testing we decided to remove Duress and add Swords and Jester's Cap main, and even so, the match-up still went 60-40 in favor of Gifts.  The ability to drop an early Oath and then build for a Tendrils kill while Slaver searches for creature answers is HUGE here.  Generally, I found all of the Goblin Welder match-ups to be extremely difficult with DSC as the only creature, and as Slaver was the first extensive testing we did, it was that testing that convinced me that duress was an extraneous slot and could be filled by the traditional Oath angels.  Once you had a 2/3 shot at hitting a non-weldable creature, this match-up percentage skyrocketed in favor of Gifts Oath.  After board you can bring in blasts, needles, and possibly oxidizes, although in my testing I realized that oxidezes were generally overkill and were unnecessary.

Gifts Decks:
In general, this is one of the 2 match-ups where it pays to always be the aggressor.  An early Oath is almost game against Gifts, especially if you have any sort of control elements in your hand.  Again, the ability to bring Oath up a creature that their colossus cannot block will win you this game, as you get the extra swing, and can chump block with your second angel if necessary to go lethal.  Generally the FlameVault version Andy Probasco ran at the tournament has a bit of a better match up, as they have an easier route to victory with engineered explosives main and the time vault kill, however the match should still be largely in your favor.  When I played Andy this weekend, I only brought in blasts and needles, as I really don't think anything else will make a difference.  I thought about oxidize as an easy way to attack the mana development that Gifts so clearly needs, however I felt it was an unnecessary addition.

5CStax:
This is the match I wanted all day long, as this is where your MD Oath shines.  The deck has a horrible time with early, large men, and you have plenty in the board to stunt their early development.  I chose oxidize over sacred ground for many reasons, but the main two were that a) it answers a first turn lock piece much more efficiently, and b) it costs 2, which is the number that this decks fears chalice being set to.  Ground seal is another possibiity here, but I decided that I only wanted to bring it in games where I was going first, as the chance of hitting ti turn 1 or 2 was where it was best.  Later in the game it is still efective, but with ground seal out, you no longer have to worry about welder, and it allows you to be much more aggresive with your counterspells, something you couldn't do if it came down later.  Annul was also a bomb in this match, as it gives you 9 ways to answer a first turn lock piece (FOW, Annul, and Oxidize, for those of you playing our home game).  While you arre still susceptible to losing to an explosive opening, nothing that you bring in will greatly change that, so I felt fairly confident with this main deck and board plan against the most dominating board control deck in the environment (MidWest excepted).  As a side note, rebuild also went into the main as an answer to the 5C and UbaStax problem main deck, in case an early Oath was impossible or was dealt with.

UbaStax:
Sadly, I did not get the amount of testing done I wanted against this, but from the roughly week or so we played this match, it came down to early Oath versus early UbaMask.  No cards in this were any different than in the Stax matchup other than UbaMask.  Generally, when it succesfully resolved, this match was poor for my deck.  However, having the rebuild/tendrils option made this match slightly better preboard, and after we boarded, I felt confident that I had about an even matchup with the deck, and I felt that was about as good as I could get without devoting massive SB space to it.  Again, annul and oxidize came in, as did the tendrils.  I felt with the amount of disruption UbaStax could generate in the form of null rod and chalice (which would most likely be set at 0 and 2), it was better to have the tendrils main than to try and Wish it out. 

Oath:
This match-up is fairly close.  Game one I found it to be slightly in Oath's favor (to be fair, we only tested against GWS oath, which I felt would be predominant), but again, being able to stalemate with an Oath and then attempt to Tendrils was huge.  Having the anglels also meant that you could actually race them if Oath became active, something that Colossus cannot do.  In the only Oath Mirror I faced all day, My opponent opened with a First turn duress, took tinker, and then dropped his own Oath of a Lotus, not realizing I was playing Oath myself.  I was able to promptly Demonic for Orchard and kill him with his own Oath, as he did not have an Oarchard until his third turn.  After board, you bring is triskelion and needle.  Wasteland is so key to this matchup, needle is warranted even though it has only 2 real targets (Wasteland and Triskelion).  Blasts can be brought in against other Oath variants, but I didn't really see an overwhelming need to do so.

Fish:
Generally, all fish is a good matchup.  GENERALLY.  UW fish can be problematic, as you have to carefully weigh the options as to whether or not to Oath early, fearing a swords.  Generally, I tried to bluff a straight gifts deck in game 1 in both matches, and then in game 2 I played Oath very aggresively, and usually seals and other disenchant effects had been removed, leaving me only swords to deal with.  This is not always possible, expecially if fish gets down an early chalice, but it was my game plan and it worked exceptionally well in both matches.  I had little to bring in against fish other than the balance and the triskelion, however in retrospect I would have brought in the needles against stormscape apprentice and/or rootwater thief, I think.

Fast Combo:  This was the matchup that worried me, and thankfully I did not see a great deal of it.  You have no real options here other than racing them, which you are mildly prepared to do.  Post board you do not have a lot of answers either, but again, I did not test these matchups much, as I was really hoping it would be sorely lacking in this metagame (luckily, it was almost completely non-existant). 

Dragon:
This is what I was waiting for.  My last 2 run ins with the Canadian Vintage players had taught me to be extremely respectful to the resiliance of Dragon, and I wanted to make sure I was prepared for it.  Ironically enough, it was a loss to Dragon that knocked me out of top 8, but I digress.  The game 1 matchup is fair enough, and you really want to apply pressure with Oath.  I almost completely ignored the Gifts portion of the deck, and focused solely on activating and protecting Oath.  SB, you can bring in annul, needle (definitely set to bazaar and compulsion), and ground seal.  You do, however, really need to remove your targeted graveyard recursion, as dropping and protecting ground seal is a huge priority.  I didn't take it out, and it turned out to be a horrible mistake.  Blasts can also come in, as they are another way of allowing you to force through an Oath against their FOW's, but they may not be necessary.

Overall, I was exceptionally pleased with this deck in testing and during the tournament.  The fact that the other gift deck I saw running Oath (SB, in that case) made T8 again encouraged me in my belief that I was on the right track with evolving the deck for the current metagame. The changes I made to the maindeck may be a bit controversial, but I never really missed duress, and the fourth gifts (which I removed for a MD rebuild) never mattered either.  I only cast gifts more than once during a game on one occasion, the first time gifting for mana against stax, the second time gifting for Oath and recursion.  The strength of Oath main is shown in many of Gifts worst matches, and the addition of the 2 angels allows you to aggresively gifts into an opposing welder, something that the deck could not do previously.  It also allows you to allow a turn 1 welder to resolve, as this neither a serious threat to your creature base, nor a serious threat on their side of the board.  The rebuild allows for much greater ease in casting a lethal tendrils, and gets around chalice at 2, which was nearly an auto-loss for this deck previously, as the only must counter spell left in your deck was tinker.  Thoughts and comments would be greatly appreciated, and as always, thanks for paying attention.
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« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2005, 01:16:10 am »

Why the leaks instead of Drains?  It seems that this deck has lots of good things it can do with extra colorless.  This deck looks like a control deck so it can afford to sit back and keep UU open.
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« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2005, 01:22:21 am »

That was the gigantic thing I completely forgot to mention.  I felt that overall, leaks and Drain were fairly interchangable in the deck, except if you were going to play the deck very aggresively.  I wanted to be able to get out of the gate as aggresively as possible, and that meant forcing the issue with Oath.  It also meant that if you oathed on turn 1 or 2 off a mox, and your land was wasted, only if your mox was a sapphire would dropping your second land allow you to counter again your next turn.  I also wanted to raise my ability to counter on turn 1 as much as possible, as I felt that Stax and Oath would be strong contenders at the event (turn's out that they weren't, but I still was paired aginst them).  With the addition of the 2 angels, you turn the deck more into a beatdown strategy with gifts as a back up, whereas I felt the DSC only version was completely reversed, wanting to play the gifts route, and oathing if that was convenient and favourable.  This configuration lets you play as aggresively as the deck can, and still provides maximum control support.  However, without the angels, I think drain is the correct call.
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« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2005, 02:51:44 pm »

The deck is exceptionally resistant to hate...

But, what about Land hate?  The deck seems very vulnerable to Wastelands and other non-basic hate like Blood Moon and Back to Basics.
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« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2005, 02:53:20 pm »

Is the tundra for Balance in the board worth it?  Would it just be better to put in a 4th Orchard?
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« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2005, 03:04:41 pm »

Only newbs don't play mainboard Ancient Hydra.  It is actually the only good creature in the deck.
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« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2005, 04:37:13 pm »

I usually board out uba against oath. this is a hard deck to nail down. the viable plans are:
-chalice @ 2
-early smokestack
-welder w duplicant in yard (preferably via bazaar, in order to nail their crature at instant speed)
-multiple maze of ith (after board)

none of these plans are great. chalice requires me having 4 mana before they have 2 and an oath or a counterspell.
smoky also requires 4 mana, or active welder, and most times it has to hit at least a turn before oath resolves in order to clear their board before taking lethal.
welder + duplicant is difficult to set up, and also pretty much has to be online before the first oath activation, if I have to spend an intervening turn to weld duplicant out. having smoky here is key, to sac the duplicant and get it back w only 1 weld.
maze is great delaying tactic, but clearly is vulnerable to wasteland. the only way to ensure a wall of Ith, is getting multiples. bazaar + crucible is fantastic in this regard, but thats fairly slow.
all of the above plans are vulnerable to Oxidize, against chalice, smoky, weld target, or crucible, respectively.
my biggest fear against oath is time walk. I have lost so many games where I was prepared to eliminate their threats, but then got blown out by time walk. oath pilots: never play time walk before you activate oath.
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« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2005, 04:50:48 pm »

Mhm I'm looking the deck.... and probably 3 creatures main deck are not the best.... how about 2?

And about mana base....wastelands are sooo strong against you....

3 oxidize yes are ok but normally an old creature like woodripper will help your matches against staxx or stacker!

what do u think?

Ops: the last question: mana leak to have a first turn counter every hand? ( force of will or mox+island/fetch and mana leak )....

thanx
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« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2005, 05:04:34 pm »

Only newbs don't play mainboard Ancient Hydra.  It is actually the only good creature in the deck.

Thats really arrogant and not needed. Also, even if it is true (which can be argued) you could at least explain why you believe Ancient Hydra to be a needed addition. Calling a player who made an extremely insightful and thoughtful post (agree with it or not) at least deserves an explanation. Whenever I wonder why the type 1 community isnt growing its this elitism, and heavy critism that rears its ugly head to explain why new players turn away to other formats.

Now, back to the deck. Do you feel that it is absolutely neccesary to run 3 creatures?
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« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2005, 05:12:14 pm »

@ Fantaman
I really liked the 3 creature configuration, as it let me have a good chance of getting 2 haste creatures into play.  However, there is the option of cutting down to DSC and Akroma.  I'm not sure what single card would merit that cut, however.  I am not opposed to putting the 4th gifts back in, but at the moment I see no real reason to do so.

In regards to wasteland, my thoughts during testing were as follows:  with the exception of the Oath mirror, all the decks that generally pack wasteland have a horrible time with Oath.  I was willing to give up complete mana stability in those matches (mainly Stax and Fish) for a bomb that could most likely not be dealt with.  In retrospect, this plan may turn out to be faulty, but as or right now I can't really find a better mana base to work with.

Woodripper if is solid, but with no solid way to recure him as GWS Oath has in blessing, I felt it was a liability.  I also did not want an answer to Stax that was based solely on activating Oath, as that would be the easiest portion of the deck for them to shut off early if they got ahead.

As for the mana leak argument, I'm not sure if you are arguing for or against them.  I had them main due to the ability to raise my 1st turn and early game counterspell ability, and I think it was the right call.  Did you agree or disagree?

@ WW
The reason I wanted to run 3 guys main was that I mistakenly expected a good deal of Oath hate.  I wanted to make sure that a single cap activation couldn't lock me out of the game.  In hindsight, as I said regarding Fantaman's post, dropping Razia could be a consideration, but I am not sure what to fill that slot with.

@ ForceFieldYou
I tested Hydra, but again, without blessing to recur, it came up short in a good number of matches.  I felt that Razia was a better addition in the 3rd creature slot. 
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« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2005, 05:18:54 pm »

Agree 100% in this case yes mana leak will help you first turn sometimes with double counter: force and leak...

but gift sometimes needs drains....

however now your leak probably the best solution because your islands are dual lands...ehhehe and waste it's a little problem.


Only newbs don't play mainboard Ancient Hydra.  It is actually the only good creature in the deck.

Ancient Hydra.... mhm... yes it's sooo nice but that guy put Trisky in the side for play probably in the bad cases it from the hand.....

 Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green

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Otherwise Trisky it's like an Hydra... against creatures and sometimes it's better because u don't have to tap your mana for kill problems.

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« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 05:29:22 pm by Klep » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2005, 05:37:44 pm »

@ Whateverworks.

I don't think anyone is a newb I was goofing around.  Don't wet your pants.

 I wasn't actually trying to be a dick.  Its kind of an in joke between me and everybody that I have a secret love afair with Ancient Hydra.

In fact when I sign cards for people I always sign the multi-headed horror.

However, I do honestly believe that in Oath Ancient Hydra always deserves the MD slot, in particular over Razia.  One of the key reasons is that with Blessing recursion, Ancient Hydra can almsost never actually die.  Especially to swords to plowshares.  In addition he clears the board of Welders and Shamans which can actually allow decks like Slaver, or burning Slavery enough possibilities to go off and kill you while you are trying to beat down with guys. 

Another interesting reason for this decision is that Hydra can be easily hard casted against UW fish when they have a Meddling Mage in play naming Oath of Druids.

In addition against decks like Fish that play annoying cards like Stormscape apprentice, Voidmage prodigy and Meddling Mage; Hydra adds a lot of versitility to your game plan.

Not to mention you can just use him as recurrable direct damage in some situations.  (It happens!)

He also straight up kills Platnium Angel.  A feat that Trike does not without Recursion.

These are all reasons for why when I play Oath I always play with FFY's Hydra.

Cheers
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« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2005, 08:00:43 pm »

@ Whateverworks.
 I wasn't actually trying to be a dick.  Its kind of an in joke between me and everybody that I have a secret love afair with Ancient Hydra.

In fact when I sign cards for people I always sign the multi-headed horror.

Oh, my bad. I have the same love affair with err... well...nothing... I know a player who has a obsession with brass man if that counts?
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« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2005, 08:03:28 pm »

No great shakes buddy.  But seriously, give the Ancient Hydra a second look it is nuts in Oath.  It helps you win a lot of games that you couldn't win without it.
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« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2005, 08:15:52 pm »

Mhm I'm looking the deck.... and probably 3 creatures main deck are not the best.... how about 2?

And about mana base....wastelands are sooo strong against you....

3 oxidize yes are ok but normally an old creature like woodripper will help your matches against staxx or stacker!

Woodripper's terrible.  Just Oath up a FING HUGE dude and win in 2 turns.  Stax can't deal with that.  If you are Oathing, you are winning.  Oxidizes help you to set up the win.
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« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2005, 05:27:47 pm »

You don't play vampiric tutor. Is there any good reason ? It can find anything in your deck (oath, orchard, gift) ? If you don't want to play Razia anymore, I think you should try this.

winnie.
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« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2005, 10:10:40 pm »

@ FFY:  So then MD Hydra/Colossus/Akroma, or MD Hydra/Colossus?

I'm leaning towards the second option.  That way against Welders, you can Oath and hope it hits Hydra, clearing the board of potential problems so that Colossus can show up unapposed.  This slows the Oath engine down a bit, as you don't have hasty angels to end the game quick (though Hydra can be boarded out against decks not packing little men for Akroma/Razia).
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« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2005, 01:51:37 am »

The problems I see with the Hydra plan are twofold: 

Primarily, as I mentioned earlier, Hydra just isn't that effective without a stable way of recurring it.  The way I see it, most artifact decks would not be running Triskelion if they could not continually abuse it with welder (or at least have the reasonable expectation of doing so).  Ancient hydra, in an Oath deck that does not run blessing, falls into the same category.  It is an excellent tool, but it is in my opinion wrong for the deck. 

Secondarily, having 2-3 creatures in the board is a huge spatial commitment.  I realize that the Gifts deck that T8'd was able to do this, however his entire sideboard was dedicated to bringing in the Oath portion of the deck.  This deck works in a fundamentally different way, giving the opponent both looks game 1.  With the number of cards that I was already forced to cut out of the sideboard, I don't think it is possible to run 2-3 creatures main, and then 2 more in the side.  Ancient Hydra may well fill the Triskelion slot in the sideboard, however I am still fairly hesitant to insert it due to the mana considerations of activating it.  Triskelion can be tinkered out if need be, shoot a few little guys, and then having done his job swings for 1 or 2 until dealt with.  The fact that he can be tinkered for puts him head and shoulders above Hydra in my analysis of the deck
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« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2005, 04:47:04 am »

Quote
Woodripper's terrible.  Just Oath up a FING HUGE dude and win in 2 turns.  Stax can't deal with that.  If you are Oathing, you are winning.  Oxidizes help you to set up the win.

Play the worst scenario with your mind now.
You are resolving Oath AFTER he played some locks and have a good board position.
It would consist on Smokestacks, Wires, Spheres and other locks components.

Would be the Woodripper recursion bad?
Of course no.
It would be STELLAR.

You can play against MW.dec with Triskelions and Woodrippers alone, recur them to kill Welders and crush artifact.
These decks are really strong but have few tools to win around this nasty combination of creatures.

When they have no permanents or no Welders, you can win with ANY creature...


Maxx

PS. Of course, this way of reasoning function against decks that are not playing DSC.



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