[Free Article] Finding a Middle Ground: Negotiating Fair Prize Structures

[nataz]

There's a fair amount of controversy surrounding the issue of tournament prize support in the Vintage community lately, and some prominent figures have voiced notably strong feelings on the subject. Given that the Vintage tournament scene is starting to shift in some areas of the country that have been known to be strongholds of the Type One tournament scene (such as New England), I thought this issue deserved special attention.

A nice little community bit by our very own banned, but still loved and surprisingly active, Demonic Attorney.

As someone who plays at myriad fairly regularly, I'm glad to see you portrayed them in a positive light. Dan (the owner) goes way out of his way to get peoples opinions on how his events are run, and then does his best to incorporate that into future events.

If you want an example, after the feedback from the last example, he was very pro-active (to the point of starting a thread on our own private boards) on what the prize package-to-cost ratio should look like from a players perspective.

All in all, it gives some good advice to those looking to start (or perhaps re-start) vintage magic tournaments in their local area.

You forgot the link! http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10970.html

[Jacob Orlove]

Good article!

[cosineme]

nice read...

when did DA get banned? lol.

[Machinus]

I thought this was good. Unfortunately, the TO's that I know of who need to read it don't read SCG.

[orgcandman]

when did [Demonic Attorney] get banned? lol.

The same time all the other Ante cards were banned.

I agree, this article has been a long time comming, and I thought it was well crafted, and delivered its message.

[shoeboxtony]

i have to agree, the article was a nice read. we are currently looking to put together a norcal local power tourney. i swear the vintage scene on the east coast is amazing, infact inspiring enough for us to put something together on the west coast.

[Demonic Attorney]

Thanks for the positive feedback guys.  I probably wasn't as clear on the point as I should have been, but part of my intention, besides making the suggestions I did, was to raise the question-- should TO's have an obligation to put all entrance revenue towards prize support?  I've heard some strong opinions on the subject on both sides. 

[Lunar]

Hmmm, its a tough question, and one im probably about to experience first hand (since im about to host several tournies)

There are several things to look at IMO when trying to answer that question, but the thing that sticks out to me is that even if a shop (to differentiate from sombody like me who is just a player/organizer) would come out ahead they SHOULD probably give that profit up as prizes (only net profit, since they should pay ALL of their costs off first if they have left overs of any sort) what people dont realize (or shop owners dont want to talk about much) is that these events are GREAT advertising for them. I would love to see data on how many cards are purchased from a shop in anticipation of a tournament. Beyond the extra income from singles leading into an event, you have to figure in that the site is going to be getting advertising for free basically on sites like here and SCG (and team sites, word of mouth, flyers etc etc etc)

I find nothing wrong with the shop making sure they recoup ALL money spent first, but extras could probably be given as prizes to make their advertising via tourney even more potent (more prizes generally means more people notice the event right?)

Are the shops OBLIGATED to do this? Of course not, but places that are obviously ripping players will probably soon be losing players...

[jcb193]

Until you own a business and pay rent, I think it is hard to assume what kind of profit shopkeepers attain.  I know WAY more shops that have gone out of business (including a Wotc Store), than ones that have been around 5+ years.

I'm not a TO, but i am a small business owner, and I think any profit they obtain, is well deserved.  That said, the stronger magic community they create, the better their business will be.  No tourneys=no people that care about magic.

JB

[jpmeyer]

Thanks for the positive feedback guys.  I probably wasn't as clear on the point as I should have been, but part of my intention, besides making the suggestions I did, was to raise the question-- should TO's have an obligation to put all entrance revenue towards prize support?  I've heard some strong opinions on the subject on both sides. 

I don't think that you can make that sort of decision without some sort of data regarding what sort of ancillary income (singles, draft sets, snacks, sleeves) tournies bring in, either directly (sales made on tourney day) or indirectly (through repeat costumers to the store due to a positive tourney experience).  Furthermore, what sort does having the crowd in the store do?  Does it invite people in (by making the place seem more lively) or make the store seem too crowded?

[ELD]

I've been on both sides of the tournament process and I feel there is one golden rule.  T.O.'s should not be trying to make money by taking a rake.  Give all the entry fee back to the community, and things will work out.  This doesn't mean you can't make money, it just means you shouldn't do so in way that is not within the everyday business practice.  When giving out a mox, go ahead and figure it in at full retail, not what you paid for it.  Say that mox is $350-300 depending on how worn it is.  Let's say that you get $350 in entry fees, that's the same as selling it.  If you don't make money when you're selling a mox, then you need to find a differant line of work. 

If 20 people show up, and they all put down 5 bucks each, you're looking at a $100's in entry fee's.  There is no excuse to not give out at least $100 in store credit.  This is the same profit as someone dropping $100 on product.  It is even better than a regular spending $100 because prize winnings are often spent on things the player would not usually afford/buy.  I point to my $100 worth of flying tricycle life counters as proof of this (they were recently stolen, they will be missed). 

As a store, there are endless ways of making money from tournaments.  IMO taking money from the prize pool should never be one of them. 

[Godder]

Stores/dealers shouldn't take a rake to tournaments they run, but if you're an independent T.O. (think Waterbury...), that's close to the only way to make back the costs and have a little something left for spending however many days/weeks of your life goes to organising these things.

[mr_rogers]

I probably wasn't as clear on the point as I should have been, but part of my intention, besides making the suggestions I did, was to raise the question-- should TO's have an obligation to put all entrance revenue towards prize support?  I've heard some strong opinions on the subject on both sides. 

The local gamming store I play at has been putting all enterance fees into the prize pool for 10 years.  I really think this has helped keep the attendance to the type 1 tournys in the high teens-low twentys(small store).  I can understand when some TO's charge a little more as it may cost them extra depending on what they had to do to get the prizes.  But I think that unless you're hosting something like Waterbury or another big tourny you should put the money you get from entrance fees back into the prizes.  It gives the players more incentive to show if they know they are making the prizes they recieve even better.

[Samite Healer]

I don't believe that stores our obligated to deliver 100% prize support at all.  In this day and age, most people obtain their cards from the internet, whether it is from online stores like StarCity, Cardhaus, CCGhouse, MagicArsenal, CoolStuff Inc, Troll and Toad, other distant stores, cardshark, or eBay.  I think a major problem with the average person's reasoning in this matter is that they think that stores make a ton of money selling singles, snacks, and soda - This is not always true.

Stores exist to provide services to the magic community, and in turn, they expect to profit somewhat from the risk of investment that they have undertaken.  These services are in fact, providing a place to play and gather, and having cards available for purchase or trade.  I not affiliated with ANY store, but I am getting quite sick of hearing countless Type 1 players demanding and expecting 100% return like it is their right.

Well, if everyone wanted to guarantee a 100% return, why aren't all big vintage events held in some random TMDer's basement for cash?  This often creates a space and location problem, and to rent a hall costs a bunch of money so then some money must go to account for this expense.

The key here is to offer 100% prize return on some events, but not all.  For example, in the above situation where only 10 people show up and throw down $10, give the winner $100 in store credit.  That's fine, because otherwise it would be pretty stingy and cheap and probably reflect poorly on the store owner because a 10 man event is quite easy to run.  However, if $700 is collected from an event, I have no problem with the store owner giving out $550-$600.  These events are much more difficult to run, sometimes flyers are made, which costs money, and to make $100-$150 for running 10+ hours of event doesn't seem like a CEO payout to me. 

If you win an event, the difference in prize of $600 to $700 is not that much, because you've just increased your money at least tenfold. 

I'd like to address ELD's point as well. 

Of course store owners buy cards low and retail them high, but this is not always the case with power.  Several store owners have extreme difficulty obtaining power cards to give out as prizes on a fairly regular basis, and as a result, I know of many that have had to resort to ebay to get some in advance, take some on consignment, or pay full retail just to have them if they need them quickly.

So, if they paid $300 for a Mox, and they obtain $300 from the event, they actually haven't made anything from this event, except a marginal increase in revenue from soda, snacks, and singles, which I mentioned above aren't all that exceptional.

[mr_rogers]

I have to say I agree with Samite Healer on the prize support issue.  High end cards cost the dealers quite a bit even at whole sale, so to expect them not to charge a little more for a power event is pretty selfish.  They are being nice enough to go out of thier way, often spending many extra hours working or paying help overtime so you can enjoy your tounament expirience.  The least the players could do is not complain cause the store made some money from the event.  That's what stores do, make profit or fail.

[Jacob Orlove]

Stores/dealers shouldn't take a rake to tournaments they run, but if you're an independent T.O. (think Waterbury...), that's close to the only way to make back the costs and have a little something left for spending however many days/weeks of your life goes to organising these things.

I can't comment on Ray's actual expenses vs entry fees, but he does do pretty good business all day selling soda and pizza; I know because I was often the one stuck selling it. Some of his money absolutely has to go to renting the space, making flyers, and stuff like that, though.

[iamfishman]

Stores/dealers shouldn't take a rake to tournaments they run, but if you're an independent T.O. (think Waterbury...), that's close to the only way to make back the costs and have a little something left for spending however many days/weeks of your life goes to organising these things.

I can't comment on Ray's actual expenses vs entry fees, but he does do pretty good business all day selling soda and pizza; I know because I was often the one stuck selling it. Some of his money absolutely has to go to renting the space, making flyers, and stuff like that, though.

Quite true sir.  For large events like both SCG and myself, one of the main things people forget when they see huge amounts of money are the "invisible" costs of running an event outside of your store.  Some are obvious like the huge price tag associated with renting a three-bay ball room for a full 2 day period.  Some expenses are not so obvious, like the time I forgot my printer at my house on a day 1, borrowed one from the marriott and had it break on me.  I ended up buying a brand new printer($90) for the marriott for the one that broke.