Help wanted on Workshop Aggro deck

[Jesus_Walks]

Ive been trying to work on this new version of Workshop Aggro for almost a month now, but Ive been pretty frustrated by several matchups including GWS Oath and TPS. I wanted to make something aggressive enough to take Stax and stuff, but with enough solutions to beat a lot of the random things that I have to face, lots of Fish and budget Oath are very popular.

Heres the deck:
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        4 Ancient Tomb
        4 City of Brass
        4 Glimmervoid
        1 Demonic Tutor
        3 Sphere of Resistance
        1 Imperial Seal
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Enlightened Tutor
        2 Ground Seal
        2 Fabricate
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Time Walk
        1 Tinker
        1 Defense Grid
        1 Jester's Cap
        1 Sword of Fire and Ice
        2 Lightning Greaves
        4 Ankh of Mishra
        1 Darksteel Colossus
        2 Platinum Angel
        2 Triskelion
        4 Su-Chi
        4 Juggernaut

Sideboard:
1 Jester's Cap
2 Defense Grid
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Rack and Ruin
2 Ground Seal
1 Trinisphere
2 Duplicant


Some things I looked at were Hannas Custody which is also very good against Welder and makes Platinum Angel great, and moving Chalice to the main, but I cant find room. I would like to do that since the best player around here plays TPS and he is very frustrating to lose too.

I built the deck from looking at some of the few Workshop Aggro lists that have placed this past year, though that hasnt been much. I originally had something that looked a lot like Dan Carps list from Starcity in april, but I dont really like Sundering Titan or Crucible since many people here play lots of basics. Since I dont run Welder I never liked Thirst for Knowledge or Brainstorm, so Ive been trying to run it running lots of tutors which has worked out pretty well in testing. I had Sensei Top in but since I dont want to run a fetchland manabase I prefer having the additional tutors. The sideboards been pretty weak too, and I want to fit Duplicant into the mainboard to take out Oath and Colossus.

My matchups right now:

Stax: Very good, but I havent tested a lot since nobody out here runs it. I can usually just race them with a beatstick and Lightning Greaves and sideboarding in Rack and Ruin really hurts them game 2.

Gifts: About even, depends how fast I can start dealing damage. Getting out Ankh of Mishra usually sets me on the right path. Ground Seal slows down their clock, and getting Platinum out with Greaves is very good if they have Colossus out (so they cant Rebuild without hurting themselves) When they sideboard in artifact hate it can be very bad, also if I walk into Mana Drain too early and they go broken.

Control Slaver: Very good, provided they dont go broken too fast. Welder can suck but I run a lot of ways around it and they never expect maindeck Ground Seal. Lightning Greaves is usually what wins it and Ankh makes them very mad. Sideboarded artifact hate does suck, but I usually still come out on top.

Oath: Not so good. Since most of the guys around here play the many counterspell version, I have a hard time getting Platinum Angel out before I die. Ive had sucess tutoring up Jesters Cap (thats why its maindeck) but I still cant seem to beat them consistantly. The unpowered ones are a lot easier to beat of course.

TPS: I know Im losing because I dont have the maindeck Chalices, I just cant seem to fit them in. I really dont want to cut Ankh and cutting Sphere of Resistance makes it just as bad as before.

All help, questions, or criticisms are welcome.

[cssamerican]

If you want to play this archetype and you see Oath frequently I would would at least have three [card]Ray of Revelation[/card] in the sideboard, if not four. As for TPS I would cut the Defense Grid and Sword of Fire and Ice for the fourth Sphere of Resistance and aTrinisphere. No matter what though Trinisphere needs to be in the main. If that isn't enough I suppose you could try Arcane Laboratory from the sideboard as a way to stop storm combo decks. It should be decent if you have a beatstick in play, or can follow it up with one quickly. Some of you card choice seem a little questionable as to why they are being played over Chalices, but I assume they are working for you.

[MvdB]

Hi,

A workshop aggro deck is just perfect to fit in a Crucible/Waste or Strip lock. Therefore, I'm curious why do you choose to play with the Ankh's?
Although Ground Seals are great against some of the other decks out there, fitting in Welders yourself really strenghtens any Workshop aggro, in my opinion anyway.
Fabricates were very nice in the MaskNought deck by Eric Miller, when Trinisphere was still unrestricted. What's your experience with them, because to me they seem too slow..

The Defense Grid looks a bit lonely and somewhat random.. Maybe it would be more comfortable in the SB? The Jester's Cap is nice, but again: only one copy? I really like the Lightning Greaves; they speed things up and protect your precious critters..

Instead of the Platinum Angels (can be easily destroyed, although Lightning Greaves provides a safe haven obviously) I propably would choose Duplicants over them in the main deck. Fetching them with a resolved Intuition, combined with an active Welder, eats the nasty critters Oath runs.
Also, instead of Sphere of Resistance, I think Chalices fit better in a Workshop aggro list. Chalice on 1 against TPS and on 2 against Oath seem pretty solid

Greetz,

Menno

[warble]

While you do have the basic core of the deck down, there are many changes that will immediately allow you to see some gains.  The truly truly important changes are:

+1 Trinisphere
+2 Duplicant
+2 Mox Monkey
+1 Yawgmoth's Will
+3 Sundering Titan

-2 Ground Seal
-2 Fabricate
-4 Ankh of Mishra
-1 Defense Grid

In terms of what this does to the deck, you're losing the tutor+damage base early for a lot of versatility in that gameplan, and mid-game drops are really what workshop aggro is all about.  Turn 3-4 you really like using the monkey, titan, and duplicant effectively and not packing them is probably equivalent to weakening the deck significantly.  As for Trini, you're looking for that soft lock and without crucible+waste that's exactly what this gives you.  The reasoning behind this change is really to give you more bombs.  If you run a workshop aggro deck with less bombs you really just can't expect to beat a deck like CS, STAX or Gifts.  The basis for winning against this category of deck is to be able to work through multiple force+drains.  Without any hand sculpting or draw power, this really means you need to see the bombs earlier than when you'll play them by a few turns.  Giving yourself time to dissect your opponent's hand and to milk the counters requires cards such as the above +, not the cards indicated by - that can be easily let through.

I think a main issue with the deck's construction is a lack of respect for mishra's workshop.  While you have a bunch of colored cards, you do not have goblin welder so the threats you throw out either resolve or die.  To address this, I believe it's worthwhile to make some room for goblin welder.  I would say the same about wasteland+strip+crucible, but for reasons unknown to me you don't have that in the deck at all.

Finally, a note about workshop aggro versus uba mask.  Bazaar draws you cards, isn't counterable, and when combined with goblin welder and mishra's workshop makes for a REALLY aggressive gameplan.  Instead of having cards get countered or playing a single threat or perhaps two during initial turns, you'll find yourself dropping a consistent two threats per turn throughout the game.  This is far more aggressive than a deck playing only workshops, and I am quite certain playtesting of your workshop aggro versus vroman's uba stax list will convince you that bazaar workshop is more aggressive than your list.  If you prefer 5cc, feel free to use a uba mask workshop list with that mana base.  However, as you are concerned with fish and oath, the barbarian rings and lock components should be more than adequate.

I will also address chalice versus sphere of resistance.  While both can be effective, if you have no welder I think chalice over sphere simply because of versatility.  Of course, I've never even contemplated cutting welders from a workshop deck, so the justification behind this decision is definitely not there.

[M.Solymossy]

Honestly, if you like dan carp's old list, his new list that's posted on Star City is 10 x better.  I'd link it to you, but the nazi elitests over there IP Banned me (for the fourth time)

[JR]

Hello,

I think one of the big things about the deck that seems a little off to me is your idea of workshop aggro. your deck looks more like a control deck dedicated to answers than an aggro deck devoted to guys and tempo. You have a lot of slots dedicated to things like groundseal, defense grid and fabricate, which in my opinion should be dedicated to bombs. While I agree that sometimes you will have some trouble against decks, I don't think that there is a time when you should be playing anything but fat creatures. you should almost always, especially in the early turns, be trying to resolve big things, like a 3sphere or a jugs. you should then protect that threat or two, by attacking the opponents manabase and gaining tempo. While the threats you have are good, I am worried about the density of them. I think you could easily solve this problem with welders main, allowing your threats against a control deck to have even more potency due to there virtual uncounterability.

Personally, I think I would try the following to start off:

-2 ground seal
-2 Fabricate
-1 Defense Grid
-1 SoFI
-2 Lightning greaves
-4 Ancient Tomb

+3 Welder
+4 Chalice
+1 Trinisphere
+4 Gemstone mine

I would also take out the ankhs in favor of more guys. I think that a beatstick will be in all cases better than an artifact that doesn't always do something, and even when it does, it can be played around somewhat effectively. If you are worried about oath, I would try some razormanes.

that's all for now, hope you found this helpful.

JR.

[Fantaman]

Hi man! Here's my changes!!!


        1 Mana Vault
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        4 Ancient Tomb
        4 City of Brass
        4 Glimmervoid
        1 Demonic Tutor
        3 Sphere of Resistance
        1 Imperial Seal
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Enlightened Tutor: CHANGE with 1 Pyrostatic Pillar or Sh.Blast (Uncommon Mirrodin)
        2 Ground Seal: no sense card....CHANGE it....with 2 Pyrostatic Pillar or Sh.Blast (Uncommon Mirrodin)
        2 Fabricate: Change them with 2 Chalice
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Time Walk
        1 Tinker
        1 Defense Grid: CHANGE with TRINISPHERE
        1 Jester's Cap: No sense: CHANGE it with 1 Tangle Wire
        1 Sword of Fire and Ice: change it: CHANGE with another Sphere of Resistance
        2 Lightning Greaves: change it: CHANGE them with 2 Chalice
        4 Ankh of Mishra
        1 Darksteel Colossus: noooo! change it: CHANGE it with 1 Tangle Wire
        2 Platinum Angel: Only one the other CHANGE it with 1 Tangle Wire
        2 Triskelion
        4 Su-Chi: better the 4/4 Fifth Dawn...I forgot the name...LOL!
        4 Juggernaut

Sideboard:
1 Jester's Cap: CHANGE with 1 REB
2 Defense Grid: CHANGE with 2 REB
4 Chalice of the Void Now are main deck so here maybe better 4 Tormod' Crypt
3 Rack and Ruin
2 Ground Seal: CHANGE with 2 Crucible of words
1 Trinisphere: CHANGE with 1 Crucible of words
2 Duplicant

It gives more problems to your opponent...many many damages!

Byez

Fanta

[Jesus_Walks]

Hi man! Here's my changes!!!


        1 Mana Vault
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        4 Ancient Tomb
        4 City of Brass
        4 Glimmervoid
        1 Demonic Tutor
        3 Sphere of Resistance
        1 Imperial Seal
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Enlightened Tutor: CHANGE with 1 Pyrostatic Pillar or Sh.Blast (Uncommon Mirrodin)
        2 Ground Seal: no sense card....CHANGE it....with 2 Pyrostatic Pillar or Sh.Blast (Uncommon Mirrodin)
        2 Fabricate: Change them with 2 Chalice
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Time Walk
        1 Tinker
        1 Defense Grid: CHANGE with TRINISPHERE
        1 Jester's Cap: No sense: CHANGE it with 1 Tangle Wire
        1 Sword of Fire and Ice: change it: CHANGE with another Sphere of Resistance
        2 Lightning Greaves: change it: CHANGE them with 2 Chalice
        4 Ankh of Mishra
        1 Darksteel Colossus: noooo! change it: CHANGE it with 1 Tangle Wire
        2 Platinum Angel: Only one the other CHANGE it with 1 Tangle Wire
        2 Triskelion
        4 Su-Chi: better the 4/4 Fifth Dawn...I forgot the name...LOL!
        4 Juggernaut

Sideboard:
1 Jester's Cap: CHANGE with 1 REB
2 Defense Grid: CHANGE with 2 REB
4 Chalice of the Void Now are main deck so here maybe better 4 Tormod' Crypt
3 Rack and Ruin
2 Ground Seal: CHANGE with 2 Crucible of words
1 Trinisphere: CHANGE with 1 Crucible of words
2 Duplicant

It gives more problems to your opponent...many many damages!

Byez

Fanta

Im not quite sure I understand what youre talking about, but then again Im not quite sure you do either.

Some of the changes you suggest like the Chalices are relevant but why would I take out Jesters Cap when Im trying to beat Oath mainly? And whats the point of Crucible? I dont run wastes and I dont have a problem beating on Stax. Synod Centurion is just begging for me to get 2-for-1ed over and over especially since I already run Glimmervoid.

I guess I should just give up and run 7/10 or something. Can anyone link me to a decent list?

[Rapalaman1]

1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mana Vault
1x Mana Crypt
1x Sol Ring
4x Mishra's Workshop
3x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
2x Island
3x Volcanic Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Tolarian Academy

4x Su-Chi
1x Sundering Titan
1x Duplicant
1x Memnarch
1x Triskelion
1x Karn, Silver Golem

1x Memory Jar
3x Gilded Lotus
2x Sensei's Divining Top

4x Goblin Welder
4x Brainstorm
4x Transmute Artifact
3x Thirst for Knowledge
1x Tinker
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Time Walk
= 61 maindeck cards
I dont really remember my sideboard, it was something close to:
2x In The Eye of Chaos (should have been Pyrostatic Pillar)
3x Chalice of the Void
1x Mindslaver
1-2x Jesters Cap
1x Tormod's Crypt
3x Red Elemental Blast
2-3x Rack and Ruin
1-2 Razormane Masticore

If you are looking for a 7/10ish deck this one is alot of fun and can give good results if played well.

[Fantaman]

Im not quite sure I understand what youre talking about, but then again Im not quite sure you do either.

I Understand that type 1...is not your format...otherwise...I will show my changes because you're not so Pro to understand my deck list...!

Some of the changes you suggest like the Chalices are relevant CHALICE is ONE of the stronger cards against the race permanent and the moxes of your oppontent... if you do Workshop mox juggernaut or another beast at the first turn and chalice 0...your opponent have to give up I suppose until he has Swords on you creature. Than chalice is tooo much strong for lock TPS setted at 1 or T1T setted at 2.

---

but why would I take out Jesters Cap when Im trying to beat Oath mainly?

Probably you have not understand that OATH is not a played deck normally you will not have to beat 5 oath every tournament and I suppose Jester cup yes it's strong but ONLY.....ONE I think is not enought.

---

And whats the point of Crucible? I dont run wastes and I dont have a problem beating on Stax. mhm you have no problems against staxx???
Probably you don't understand that on a mirror match if I start: workshop than crucible my opponent will have a BIIIIGGGG problem to beat!

---

Synod Centurion is just begging for me to get 2-for-1ed over and over especially since I already run Glimmervoid.

Centurion is very strong like su-chi and Yes on this choice we can fly on and insert the old SU-CHI.

7/10 in not a great card with no METALWORKER OR THIRST FOR KNOWLEDGE.

THAT'S ALL...!

You deck is an aggro try PILLARS AND ANKH OF MISHRA...you have to put many damage-bombs in you deck list.

Fanta

[Hydra]

First off, here's Dan Carp's current list:

The Nexus.x

1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Meddling Mage
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Intuition
1 Crop Rotation
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mindslaver
2 Arcbound Crusher
1 Strip Mine
1 Mind's Eye
1 Memory Jar
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
4 Goblin Welder
1 Duplicant
1 Triskelion
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Sundering Titan
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
2 Metalworker
1 Grim Monolith
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
4 Mishra's Workshop

Sideboard:
2 Jester's Cap
1 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Duplicant
1 Triskelion

Second, Fantaman, I'm with Jesus_Walks on questioning what you're talking about.  You take a shot at him first by claiming that Type 1 "is not his format" and that he's "not so pro" as to understand your list.

He's said so himself that Oath is a very popular deck IN HIS META.  Your "deck tips" are clearly geared towards a meta that is not like his own.  It's entirely irrelevant to give tips to him on how to build the deck in a meta that his not his own.

Now then, addressing the actual topic on hand, the list I just posted of Dan's is designed with the Midwest metagame in mind, meaning other Shop decks, Oath and Gifts.  13NoVa could probably give you a better rundown than I could of how the list itself is played, although it's important to note that the deck is wins because it's "bad", meaning no one would expect it and thus have anything resembling a workable gameplan for it.

[Methuselahn]

Perhaps what our Italian Mr. Fantaman is trying to say is that don't pick Workshop Aggro as your deck of choice. (try stax because disruption > beats (beats don't affect board control and thus is lesser than disruption/lockies which have inevitability anyway.))

Even the most optimal Workshop Aggro list that name players have taken to tournaments face the same problem. TPS and other such storm strategies will wait and set up a Hurkyll's Recall or Rebuild and cast it right before they die, untap, and go off.  Oath can race Shop Aggro with better creatures.  You can't counter Oath or remove it efficiently, and you must play creatures to win, thus playing right into it.  Thirst for knowledge dumping a Duplicant, which is welded in at instant speed is nice, but usually too slow and unreliable.

[nataz]

Another option you can take if you are interested in WS aggro could be Jacob's list from last summer with top's.

the link is here, along with another link to his SCG T8 decklist. 
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=23589.0

[Jesus_Walks]

Perhaps what our Italian Mr. Fantaman is trying to say is that don't pick Workshop Aggro as your deck of choice. (try stax because disruption > beats (beats don't affect board control and thus is lesser than disruption/lockies which have inevitability anyway.))

Even the most optimal Workshop Aggro list that name players have taken to tournaments face the same problem. TPS and other such storm strategies will wait and set up a Hurkyll's Recall or Rebuild and cast it right before they die, untap, and go off.  Oath can race Shop Aggro with better creatures.  You can't counter Oath or remove it efficiently, and you must play creatures to win, thus playing right into it.  Thirst for knowledge dumping a Duplicant, which is welded in at instant speed is nice, but usually too slow and unreliable.

Pardon my ignorance but a lot of your issues appear to be solved rather easily. Ive been testing the list Hydra suggested with a couple very minor changes and have been amazed at how some of the matchups have been completely turned around. Oath isnt really so infallible when I do in fact have eight cards that prevent it from even resolving in the first place. TPS cant effectively get around the first Chalice when Im following it up with another one or just shutting off the Rebuild completely. I love not having to race the game when I can simply lock my opponent out of it. The point about disruption being superior to beats appears moot when I can get pack plenty of the first and still have enough of the second to finish the game long before they can get the necessary pieces together to break out.

As for what Fantaman said, I still have no idea what youre talking about. Oath is the biggest deck around here with the players that can afford it. Why would I worry about the mirror match when almost no one plays Stax let alone anything else with Workshops? I dont have a problem beating them anyways.

[Hydra]

How are the Meddling Mages treating you, out of curiosity?

[49 Cents]

Okay, I think there are two directions a WS Aggro list can go: Hate, with thing like Pillar and Null Rod, or the Toolbox route. For the last one, here's my team's list:

Dutch Aggro

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trinisphere

4 Goblin Welder
4 Juggernaut
2 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Razormane Masticore

4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Intuition
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fastbond

4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
5 Moxes
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
2 Gilded Lotus

Intuition is friggin' awesome. He won so many games on it's own. Combined with an active Welder or a Crucible spells doom for your opponent. Searching a Strip Mine, Tolarian Academy and some other land is a great play. With a Welder out it get's stupid. Searching Titan, Titan, Karn/Gilded will win you the game for sure. Razormane Masticore houses Fish (or any aggro deck for that matter). The discarding is pretty non relevant. I haven't tested with Sensei's Divining Top yet, but I think it might be worth running it. I'm also considering maindeck Seal of Cleansing. The deck doesn't need Imperial seal because it doesn't run SoR's.

Test it if you like. It's really fun to play at very least.

[M.Solymossy]

Dan's list is the best workshop aggro deck in an Oath Metagame.  Both of the Milwaukee/Chicago teams (ICBM and GWS) have played VERY SUCCESSFUL oath of druids decks, and Dan has no problem beating up on them.   The deck is quicker to drop threats than any other Workshop deck that ICBM tested, and breaks open the synergies between intuition and crucible and/or welder. The deck is really ridiculous, and I hope more people realize it.

Dan's average turn to get big threats in play is 2 to 3.

[Methuselahn]

Pardon my ignorance but a lot of your issues appear to be solved rather easily.

Wait, what are my issues and how did you solve them again?

Ive been testing the list Hydra suggested with a couple very minor changes and have been amazed at how some of the matchups have been completely turned around. Oath isnt really so infallible when I do in fact have eight cards that prevent it from even resolving in the first place.

This is something that I can believe.  That is, once you tell me how you are able to get W+U for Mage and/or 4 mana for Chalice more consistantly on turn 1 than Oath gets G+1.  Oh, plus you have to win the die roll more often. 

TPS cant effectively get around the first Chalice when Im following it up with another one or just shutting off the Rebuild completely. I love not having to race the game when I can simply lock my opponent out of it.

  This is simply not a practical stance to make.  TPS still has outs against you.  What do you do about Hurkyl's Recall then?  TPS will just find a way to tutor for that while you are wasting tempo dropping chalice for 3.

The point about disruption being superior to beats appears moot when I can get pack plenty of the first and still have enough of the second to finish the game long before they can get the necessary pieces together to break out.

See, this is the point where most of the world will still have to disagree with you.  Many people consider Workshop aggro to be too slow because it cant push through those remaining points of damage.  You are probably going to have to explain how your deck accomplishes this where all others have failed.

As for what Fantaman said, I still have no idea what youre talking about. Oath is the biggest deck around here with the players that can afford it. Why would I worry about the mirror match when almost no one plays Stax let alone anything else with Workshops? I dont have a problem beating them anyways.

Noone plays Workshops?  Then why did you post your Workshop list?

13NoVa could probably give you a better rundown than I could of how the list itself is played, although it's important to note that the deck is wins because it's "bad", meaning no one would expect it and thus have anything resembling a workable gameplan for it.

This is a horrible reason to decide to play a deck.  Surprise can be a powerful tool, but should not be more important than playing a deck because of it's natural inherent strength in the field.

[M.Solymossy]

13NoVa could probably give you a better rundown than I could of how the list itself is played, although it's important to note that the deck is wins because it's "bad", meaning no one would expect it and thus have anything resembling a workable gameplan for it.

This is a horrible reason to decide to play a deck.  Surprise can be a powerful tool, but should not be more important than playing a deck because of it's natural inherent strength in the field.

Nexus is really strong.  Test the deck, and you'll see how quickly this deck gets 4+ mana or WU on first turn.

[rvs]

I've only read the first post, but all I have to say is: Play sensei's divining top. Always

[Methuselahn]

13NoVa could probably give you a better rundown than I could of how the list itself is played, although it's important to note that the deck is wins because it's "bad", meaning no one would expect it and thus have anything resembling a workable gameplan for it.

This is a horrible reason to decide to play a deck.  Surprise can be a powerful tool, but should not be more important than playing a deck because of it's natural inherent strength in the field.

Nexus is really strong.  Test the deck, and you'll see how quickly this deck gets 4+ mana or WU on first turn.

Well, I can count the mana sources and all the possibilities that make 4 mana or UW on the first turn.  Let's see, it has Pearl, Sapphire, Lotus and NO petal.  So that makes 3 cards that can power out fast Mages.  On the play, Game 1, do you honestly cast Turn 1 mage  blindly naming Oath?   Chalice for 2 just cannot realistically race Orchard-Mox-Oath with Force.  I just don't see how "The Nexus.x"
can consistantly play it's prevention before Oath plays it's enchantment. 

I don't know, I'll test the deck once it really starts winning tournaments.  I just don't see how Darksteel Ingot and Arcbound Crusher are optimal here, for example.

And to be clear, my above quote here doesn't necessarily apply to any one deck.

[Hydra]

I don't know, I'll test the deck once it really starts winning tournaments.

The deck has won/split at a few Mox tournaments so far, although it hasn't gotten any use from ICBM in big tournaments because it was being tuned at the same tme as the ICBM Oath list, which is what ended up being the popular choice among ICBMers for the last SCG Chicago tourney.  Whether or not it'll see play by the team at a P9 depends a whole lot on when the P9 falls and what decks are being worked on at the time. 

[M.Solymossy]

All I know is I'm selling my drains, and looking for foil dark rituals... cough cough hint hint

[49 Cents]

My main problem with the deck isn't that it isn't strong or fun, it's just that other Workshop decks are stronger. But if you play for fun instead of playing for prizes, play WS Aggro.

BTW, I own 4 foil Rituals

[Jesus_Walks]

Okay, I think there are two directions a WS Aggro list can go: Hate, with thing like Pillar and Null Rod, or the Toolbox route. For the last one, here's my team's list:

Dutch Aggro

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trinisphere

4 Goblin Welder
4 Juggernaut
2 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Razormane Masticore

4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Intuition
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fastbond

4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
5 Moxes
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
2 Gilded Lotus

Intuition is friggin' awesome. He won so many games on it's own. Combined with an active Welder or a Crucible spells doom for your opponent. Searching a Strip Mine, Tolarian Academy and some other land is a great play. With a Welder out it get's stupid. Searching Titan, Titan, Karn/Gilded will win you the game for sure. Razormane Masticore houses Fish (or any aggro deck for that matter). The discarding is pretty non relevant. I haven't tested with Sensei's Divining Top yet, but I think it might be worth running it. I'm also considering maindeck Seal of Cleansing. The deck doesn't need Imperial seal because it doesn't run SoR's.

Test it if you like. It's really fun to play at very least.

Sorry for the late response. Ive not been around in awhile.

This Dutch Aggro looks ok, but its just the same Gilded Claw list I tried with a couple card counts adjusted.

Pardon my ignorance but a lot of your issues appear to be solved rather easily.

Wait, what are my issues and how did you solve them again?

Against Oath. With the current list including 4 Chalices, 4 Mages, a Jesters Cap, and a Duplicant, game one has been perfectly winnable and after sideboard I rarely have much trouble. All my testing has been against fully powered Oath in a couple variants, which leads me to think I will do better considering many of the players play somewhat or totally budget versions and are not all that expert at it.

Ive been testing the list Hydra suggested with a couple very minor changes and have been amazed at how some of the matchups have been completely turned around. Oath isnt really so infallible when I do in fact have eight cards that prevent it from even resolving in the first place.

This is something that I can believe.  That is, once you tell me how you are able to get W+U for Mage and/or 4 mana for Chalice more consistantly on turn 1 than Oath gets G+1.  Oh, plus you have to win the die roll more often.

I have 8 rainbow lands, Tolarian Academy, Crop Rotation, Mox Sapphire, Mox Pearl, and Black Lotus for the Mages. Im actually more likely to have 4 mana and Chalice on turn one than they are to have Orchard, Mox, and Oath. Its not like Oath is guaranteed to open with that every single game. I also have multiple routes with dealing with Oath once its on the board.

TPS cant effectively get around the first Chalice when Im following it up with another one or just shutting off the Rebuild completely. I love not having to race the game when I can simply lock my opponent out of it.

  This is simply not a practical stance to make.  TPS still has outs against you.  What do you do about Hurkyl's Recall then?  TPS will just find a way to tutor for that while you are wasting tempo dropping chalice for 3.

Hurkyl's Recall? Rebuild? Am I missing something or is Meddling Mage now an artifact? Its not even Duressable.

The point about disruption being superior to beats appears moot when I can get pack plenty of the first and still have enough of the second to finish the game long before they can get the necessary pieces together to break out.

See, this is the point where most of the world will still have to disagree with you.  Many people consider Workshop aggro to be too slow because it cant push through those remaining points of damage.  You are probably going to have to explain how your deck accomplishes this where all others have failed.

Having had a lot of time to test it and even getting to talk with the team who created it, I hardly think the deck qualifies as Workshop Aggro anymore. The fact that it happens to win the majority of its games during the attack phase is pretty superficial compared to the powerful complement of prison and control pieces it has. And I think that saying all others have failed is pretty ignorant considering the archetype in its many forms has taken many SCG T8s and innumerable victories at smaller tournaments.

As for what Fantaman said, I still have no idea what youre talking about. Oath is the biggest deck around here with the players that can afford it. Why would I worry about the mirror match when almost no one plays Stax let alone anything else with Workshops? I dont have a problem beating them anyways.

Noone plays Workshops?  Then why did you post your Workshop list?

Gee, maybe because I have a set and would love to use them in something other than the same boring stax decks that are hardly ideal for the random things like Ankh Sligh and G/R beats that quite a few people around here play?

13NoVa could probably give you a better rundown than I could of how the list itself is played, although it's important to note that the deck is wins because it's "bad", meaning no one would expect it and thus have anything resembling a workable gameplan for it.

This is a horrible reason to decide to play a deck.  Surprise can be a powerful tool, but should not be more important than playing a deck because of it's natural inherent strength in the field.

I dont know what he means about "bad". The deck has been nothing but amazing for me.

My main problem with the deck isn't that it isn't strong or fun, it's just that other Workshop decks are stronger. But if you play for fun instead of playing for prizes, play WS Aggro.

If you have a "stronger" deck than by all means provide a list. The one you gave earlier was just Gilded Claw, which I already know is outdated and too weak against Oath for me to ever want to use. Of course I play for prizes. I play to win. I put up this topic to make my deck win more, not to be more fun. If I want fun, Ill run Battle of Wits. And please dont suggest Stax. It has a tough enough time handling Oath let alone all the random aggro and hate we have out here.

[49 Cents]

This Dutch Aggro looks ok, but its just the same Gilded Claw list I tried with a couple card counts adjusted.

I'd just like to point out that a teammate of mine, Menno vd Bergh, made top 8 with a list similar like this a few weeks before Gilded Claw was released. It was put online and such..

[Methuselahn]

I have 8 rainbow lands, Tolarian Academy, Crop Rotation, Mox Sapphire, Mox Pearl, and Black Lotus for the Mages.

Yes you have have rainbow lands, but if you have to drop 2 in order to cast Meddling Mage, then that is too slow.   Your mages are going to have to come into play after only one land drop if you really expect them to be effective vs. Oath.  That is, if you win the coinflip. This also means that you are not playing Mishra's Workshop until your third land drop, at the earliest.  This is why I cringe when I see Mages in a Workshop Aggro deck.

Im actually more likely to have 4 mana and Chalice on turn one than they are to have Orchard, Mox, and Oath. Its not like Oath is guaranteed to open with that every single game. I also have multiple routes with dealing with Oath once its on the board

Notice the following turn 1 plays,

-Orchard, Mox, Oath.

-Workshop, Mox, Chalice.

-Rainbowland, On-Color Mox, Meddling Mage.

They are all about the same speed, Mage being the slowest.  So I don't see how your chalice plan is faster. It's definitely not faster in a large SCG sized field where you can't scout the field. (so that you know to name Oath to begin with)

[Hydra]

Im actually more likely to have 4 mana and Chalice on turn one than they are to have Orchard, Mox, and Oath. Its not like Oath is guaranteed to open with that every single game. I also have multiple routes with dealing with Oath once its on the board

Notice the following turn 1 plays,

-Orchard, Mox, Oath.

-Workshop, Mox, Chalice.

-Rainbowland, On-Color Mox, Meddling Mage.

They are all about the same speed, Mage being the slowest.  So I don't see how your chalice plan is faster. It's definitely not faster in a large SCG sized field where you can't scout the field. (so that you know to name Oath to begin with)

In that situation yeah, it's hard to Chalice, but if you're Chalicing "blind" in that situation, you could Chalice for 0 and buy yourself a turn, or possibly more, from Oath.  If they go first and drop the Oath obviously Chalice/Mage become useless, but Stax has that same problem, and I don't see the threat of turn one Oath making THAT deck unplayable.

On another subject, how old is that list 49 Cents?  Gilded Claw made its Star City Games P9 debut in early April 2005, which would make that list you posted REALLY old, which would interest me to see a list like that from such a time period.

[49 Cents]

The list didn't look exactly like this, but it uses Intuition, Gilded Lotus en 2 Sundering Titans. We even mailed Dan Carp about the fact his list looked very much like ours, but we never got a response. Menno has never stopped playing the list btw.