The Many Faces of Control Slaver

[Eandori]

Null Rod is a threat.  Needle has NEVER shut me down.  Ever.  I have always worked around it.  Anyways, although the Shaman helps, Slaver has many other ways of dealing with those artifacts if not Shaman.

Slaver also has problems with Bazaar decks, because nothing I do matters if Cerebral Assassin resolves a turn 1 welder, or Dragon goes turn 1 bazaar, turn 2 intuition for Squee, Squee, Dragon.

And that is exactly one reason I play Strip Mine main deck, and Wastelands in the SB.  They help me against decks like Dragon and Stax, where the Tormods Crypt works good against Dragon, but does nothing to some others.  Wasteland has proved in my testing to be a broader "solution".  Plus it cannot be counterspelled, or killed with artifact removal.

Good discussions guys.

[dicemanx]

You gotta start wondering if playing Needles against CS *improves* CS' chances, because it seems that so many people claim to NEVER be affected by it (so it must apparently be a wasted draw).

Oh, and [/sarcasm] for the impaired.

I must say that I'm surprised by FFY's statement that he doesn't remove all of his Shamans against Oath. I can see the reasoning, but playing a Shaman is just asking for trouble. It's certainly not that easy to keep Oath of Druids off the table, because the Oath deck likely exceeds you in the disruption department and has a better chance of forcing its key spell through early. 

[seer]

I found that surprising too. It seems that attacking oath's mana accelleration isn't all that important -- when it could mean that you give them a free oath activation. I often find in the CS vs Oath match they play their turn1/turn2 oath without orchard and I am content to let it resolve since they need to dig for orchard and hopefully I'll do something before they do that.

[Masterslave]

I read this whole thread and I saw like three kinds of CS decks:

1. Europ. w/ 2 Intuition , 2 Deep Analysis , 2 Cunning Wish

2. Burning Slavery w/ 2 Shamans , 1-2 Gifts , 1-3 maindeck solutions like Rack and Ruin, Echoing Truth, Tormod's Crypt or Darkblast

3. Ugo Rivard Slavery (dont know how to name it) w/ 3 Mana Leak, 1 maindeck solution, 1 Crucible for the lock

I think that's about the rough defference between thees versions besides the Robots.

Because Deck Nr 1 and 3 don't run Gifts, they are much more reliant on the Goblin Welders because they can't get a huge game-breaking Will.

Now in my Meta I've noticed more and more Players (especially Oath, Gifts and Psychatog) using Darkblast (after Sideboarding).

I'm asking if the Welders should be protected by this so Powerful Darkblast and if yes; how? Lightning Greaves came to my mind but what do you think?

[Eandori]

My deck is neither the typical Control Slaver build, nor is it covered by the 3 generalizations you gave above.  I listed my deck list on page 2 of this thread and it's what I have been referring to this entire time.

[Masterslave]

Yeah ok with listing those three decks I just wanted to show that some Slaver builds are much more reliant on the Welders than others and a game where an opponent has a Darkblast in his hand or graveyard would be very hard to win. I think a solution to Darkblast is needed.   

[The Atog Lord]

Yes, for the record, my build is none of the three you mentioned either -- the build with Rack and Ruin, Tormod's Crypt, and Darkblast.

And, further, on the matter of Goblin Welder. All Slaver decks use Goblin Welder, but none of them rely on him 100%. Slaver, even without Welder, can hardcast large artifacts (it isn't as hard as it looks), and have Yawgmoth's Will and Tinker.

[forests failed you]

2. Burning Slavery w/ 2 Shamans , 1-2 Gifts , 1-3 maindeck solutions like Rack and Ruin, Echoing Truth, Tormod's Crypt or Darkblast

Burning Slaver does not play MD Rack and Ruin.  Nor does it even play Darkblast in the sideboard.  For answers it plays Echoing Truth and Burning Wish, which can find Rolling Earthquake, Echoing Ruin, or Deep Analysis or of course Tendrils.

Gorilla Shaman is also an excellend "solution" to random problems.

[rureddy31]

Michael Jacob (five time PT player, and day 2 at worlds this year)

Not that it is the least bit relevant, but at Worlds, every competitor is allowed to play all 3 days of competition, regardless of rating. It is much different than the way Pro tours are run.

To go more on topic now, I have to say I can't believe this is a 10 Page thread. That being said, I would like to offer some insight. I have to agree with dicemanxx on the issue of boarding out Gorilla Shamans. While they do stop chalices/null rod/pithing needle, it is a very narrow answer to a similarly narrow threat against Burning Slaver. As someone mentioned, Oath will be playing the aggro role (or at least a good player would play it this way), and they are more concerned with resolving Oath than Chalice. This is NOT a trouble match-up for Burning Slaver. For normal CS, it probably is, but certainly not for BS. They play the match up as a Combo player would. Personally, I sideboard out all of my welders, my trike, and my pentavus. I leave in Tinker + Mindslaver, as you really only need one activation to win. You have to play the control/combo role here. This is where a lot of BS and CS decks miss Duress, as some opt to run other methods of control. I am not unhappy to play against this match up. I have never been a fan of Oath, and I have always questioned its strength. Believe me, a good BS player will beat a good Oath player. BS is designed to allow you to outplay your opponent. Oath is a little more fool proof (let's be fair, its one of the most mindless combo/control decks I've seen in a while).

My 2 Cents.

[seer]

What do you leave in as a win condition against oath with BS?

[forests failed you]

Tendrils

[rureddy31]

Yea. I hear tendrils is quite good. Just what I heard. That's the beauty of BS. you always have the option of going combo. against some decks (like fish, and shop decks) it is much more easier to win the old traditional way, using the attack phase with trike/pentavus. Against decks that look to shutdown your traditional way of winning via pithing needle, oath of druids, and even the mirror match, it is sometimes better to focus the deck into combo control after game 2, removing some (if not all) of your robot engine, as well as some (if not all of your welders).

[seer]

Well, I really like the idea of boarding out all welders/robots vs oath. I was just curious what people left in as a win condition.

[Evenpence]

Just for some recap of the thread, and other such wizardry for those not familiar with Slaver/those who want a summary:

1)  What are all the different 'kinds' of Slaver?

2)  What are some debates going on within different Slaver builds?  Any specific card arguments, like Crucible?

3)  What is the matchup analysis for the different kinds of Slaver?  Is Burning Slaver any worse against, say, Oath, than a traditional Control Slaver build?

4)  What are some 'bad' cards that pop up in different slaver builds?  Intution?  Platinum Angel, etc?

[Eandori]

1)  What are all the different 'kinds' of Slaver?

That's a tough question in my opinion, because with a few simple card changes the deck can play out VERY differently!  A deck with DSC/Burning Wish/Tendrils will be working towards a win differently then a build with Gifts/Crucible/Cunning Wish.  I would state that you need to look at the "standard" Control Slaver build that started with Rich Shay (spelling) awhile ago, then all the builds now are either more offensive, defensive, combo based, skewed to a specific meta.

I think my build is a bit more defensive then others, but the Gifts/Tutors/Crucible let me turn on a dime to aggresive for the win.

2)  What are some debates going on within different Slaver builds?  Any specific card arguments, like Crucible?

I feel that most see that Crucible has HUGE synergy with most builds of Control Slaver.  I think some still argue the following cards one way or another.

-Platinum Angel
-Pentavus
-Darksteel Colossus
-Library of Alexandria
-Echoing Truth
-Burning Wish
-Tormod's Crypt
-Gorilla Shaman
-3 or 4 welders
-Triskelion
-Cunning Wish
-Gifts Ungiven
-Disenchant
-Duress
-Wasteland
-Strip Mine
-1 Swamp
-Mystical Tutor/Vampiric Tutor

Having stated those, it's VERY important to realize that based on some of the choices you make for your build of slaver, other cards fall in line with that.  Like I play Crucible, so Wasteland is not a bad option for me.  Some people play Duress, so that changes their synergy a bit.  Burning wish does NOT fit into my list, but it works decently well in others.  Before you judge a single card in a build, you REALLY need to look at the rest of the cards in that list for Control Slaver!

3)  What is the matchup analysis for the different kinds of Slaver?  Is Burning Slaver any worse against, say, Oath, than a traditional Control Slaver build?

My build (listed on page 2 or 3) seems strong against everything I pit it against, except Stax and Dragon.  I have around a 50 to 60% chance against that deck if it's played well.  Other builds claim do to very well against Stax, but have issues with Oath, etc.  There is no simple answer, since VERY MINOR changes to the deck list effect it's synergy quite alot!

4)  What are some 'bad' cards that pop up in different slaver builds?  Intution?  Platinum Angel, etc?

Intuition and Platz both have some seriously good uses in slaver!  I don't play Intuition, I use Gifts for that role, but I'm very aware how good that card can be in Slaver.

I used to experiment with Isochron Scepter and Abeyance in Slaver.  It actually had alot of synergy and worked well. but in the end i could not afford to take up those card slots.  I needed more draw/tutor.  That's what you seem to run into with the "bad" cards in slaver.  They are not really 100% bad, most of them (like Solemn Simulacrum) DO have synergy with the deck, but there ends up being "better" cards to play that have "more" synergy with the deck.

For the list I posted early in this thread, I spent ~8 months developing it and I have not changed that list since September since I can't find anything that works across all meta's better then that current list.  I DO however change that deck slightly if I know the meta is skewed in an area (like trading out pentavus for a shaman, etc.)

[MoxMonkey]

1)  What are all the different kinds of Slaver?
Shay Style control Slaver
DeMars Burning Slavery
Control Slaver  Duress or Mana leak Mainboard
Random Has Extra gifts has extra Drawers has X Card in it. Slaver

2)  What are some debates going on within different Slaver builds?  Any specific card arguments, like Crucible?
Number of Welders?
Shamans Mainboard?
What bots to use in what Metagames?
Lands to be used?  LOA, Strip Mine, Wasteland
Mana Vault?  Is it needed
Do we need a mainboard x/1 killer on top of Triskelion?  if so which one?
Those are the biggest Questions

3)  What is the matchup analysis for the different kinds of Slaver?  Is Burning Slaver any worse against, say, Oath, than a traditional Control Slaver build?
shay style has a 50/50 across the board with almost every deck type.  Oath even when played Flawlessly still is not that big of a favorite despite GWS thinking they can walk over Control Slaver players.  Stax should be a favorable matchup and at worst a 50/50 for any slaver build but mainboard metagame slots could change that by adding dead draws and or the mana base lowering basic land count.

4)  What are some 'bad' cards that pop up in different slaver builds?  Intuition?  Platinum Angel, etc?
Nothing is really bad since its always metagame "bad" cards.  Intuition works over Seas due to the no proxies so theres fewer drains and more random aggro decks.  Intuition allows you to put Fat into the yard Faster for Welder to bring in to save you against Aggro and lock up the board with Mindslaver.  It looks bad to most of us but over there, its nothing short of Amazing.

[Evenpence]

That last post is exactly what I was looking for.  Thank you Moxmonkey.  If anyone else has anything to add, please do.

Thank you Eandori, as well.

[Masterslave]

@ Intuition: why should it only be good against aggro decks? It can get like 2 Deep analysis and 1 robot or slaver. That doesn't sound too bad against Drain decks.

[MoxMonkey]

Its not bad but to make it ok you need to run Deep Analysis and an extra bot or different bots you normally wouldn't.  I don't like needing Deeps to make Intution ok and the testing I've done with it showed it less powerful than say a Gift's Ungiven or a Skeletal Scrying.  I didn't like it and I wouldn't run Intution but it isn't bad.  My post says the "Bad" cards are not always bad and are dependent on the metagame.

[rureddy31]

I hate to use this saying, as I can remember a 100 post thread about it, but most of the times after casting Gifts, you win the game. Gifts sets up whatever you need, and when necessary, it can act as an intuition for 2 Bots in the yard. I think there is absolutley no reason to run Intuition over Gifts Ungiven. That being said, I also don't think anyone should run more than 1 Gifts Unigven. I tried replacing FoF for the 2nd Gifts, but decided that Fact is necessary sometimes to generate some quality card advantage without having to weed out good spells from the deck.

[forests failed you]

Gifts is such a versitle card.  It can tutor for some business in a pinch, it can set up a broken will, it can find Mana, it can Tutor robots to the yard, and it can simply find four busted ass cards.  One gifts is always good, and you are almost never sad to see it show up.  In the early game it also pitches to FOW.

I don't like the idea of playing with two though.  Slaver isn't built to abuse Gifts, rather Gifts is a spicey inclusion because it has good synergy with the deck in general.  The problem is that casting multiple gifts doesn't have any real benifit in Slaver/  because you don't have the tools to abuse it.  Since there is no Recoup MD or in the board, you can't Gifts for borken mana, and then Will REcoup. 

My favorite use of Gifts is to mystical or Vamp for it after a Yawgmoth's Will where I have Timewalked and played a welder and Gifts for whatever pieces I need to set up a Slaver lock on my next turn.

[Evenpence]

I doubt this is the place to ask this, but if you wanted to just abuse Time Walk (like, you had a TON of mana, and it's your opponents EOT, and unless you time walk like a couple times in a row you're going to lose, like he has tapped colossus or something)

You could theoretically Gifts for:

Burning Wish
Time Walk
Recoup
Yawgmoth's Will

That way you can Time Walk at least twice, right?  I ask this because in all the games I've played against Gifts, they have NEVER gone for this pile.  Now, they've usually had one in their hand and gone for something else, and I usually give them Recoup and the other thing and let Walk/Will in the yard,

But seriously.

If you run multiple recoups, you could time walk like a million times.

You could gifts for that pile, and when they give you recoup/burning wish, you recoup time walk, then burning wish for time walk, cast time walk, recoup time walk (or yawg will!) again.

Has anyone thought of RECOUP as a 2x of in Gifts?  Sounds weird I know.

Could you somehow Twincast Burning Wish and do some funky shit?  You could twincast Time Walk too.  Why isn't twincast run? 

Sorry, I'm sorta tipsy, and really shouldn't be posting right now.

[forests failed you]

This pile is nothing new.  Time Walk is one of the most busted cards in Gifts,  I make that exact pile that you've posted at least twice a tournament when I play Gifts.

[Evenpence]

You could Gifts for Twincast too.  OOOH.  Dude.  You could TWINCAST GIFTS.  Twincast kicks ass.

EDIT:  I'm going to try to fit twincast into Ubastax.

[Jacob Orlove]

This thread is way too long to be useful to anyone. Further discussion should be in a new thread or threads.

Closed.