The Many Faces of Control Slaver

[PucktheCat]

If you are powering through Thirsts and other spells to win quickly I would suggest cutting Mana Drain before Force.  Force is the better card in general, and it is a whole lot better when you are playing the whole game in the first few turns and your opponent has no spells costing more than 2 (other than Force, I suppose).  Cutting a Drain or two isn't prima facia absurd, cutting Force comes pretty close.

[Moxlotus]

You are playing the worst oath players ever.  If they are not seizing the beatdown role of course you will win.

If they aren't countering Welders 90% of the time, they are fucking stupid.  Seriously, whoever you are playing is retarded.

Plow doesn't deal with Trike very easily, and if your opponents aren't putting that in they have shitty decks.

Playing bad players doesn't mean that your SB strategy is correct.  Your 70% is against people using the worst strategies ever.  Especially since most good Oath players I know consider Slaver to be Oath's best match.  Sorry to burst your bubble.

[Tha Gunslinga]

REB effects are useless against Oath because they don't stop the card that says WIN TARGET GAME, ie Oath of Druids.  StP is gonna be fairly useless as well because not only will Chalice at 1 hit as early as I can get it out, StP kills *one* dude.  I run 2 or 3.  One dude getting plowed means I Oath up another one and kill you with that.  In addition, I can fairly easily attack your manabase and try to deny you white.  Finally, StP can only be played after I have Oathed the creature up, which means I'm fully untapped and ready for countering.

[pyr0ma5ta]

Agreed, and even Dup/Gilded drake are terrible answers do active Oath.  The best thing that Slaver can do against oath is side in 4 annul and some conditional good cards, and hope for the best.  Slaver is Oath's best matchup because of the multiple 1/1s in your maindeck, the inability to waste orchards, and the inability of Welder to wreck your opponent's board.

[The Atog Lord]

It is important to keep im mind that each turn passing puts the game more and more in favor of the Control Slaver player. Oath beats Control Slaver by slipping its combo out under Slaver's radar. Slaver, on the other hand, must keep itself alive long enough for its better late game to manifest itself. Game One against Oath can be especially tough, because the Control Slaver player has few maindeck answers to Oath's gameplan. However, after boarding, things do get considerably better for the Control Slaver player.

In all of my testing, no card has mattered more in this match than Platinum Angel. If the Oath player is not playing with Ancient Hydra, then you've probably won as soon as she's come into play. Sure, the Oath player might have some theoretical answer; but you have counter magic. She invalidates the main gameplan of Oath, buying you precious turns. Slaver need only get her into play, and then protect her. Oath has few ways of actually handling this card.

Another card that is very effective is simple old bounce. Echoing Truth is my card of choice, though Rushing River has merit as well. This card is a catch-all against Oath. It buys you more time if you find yourself staring down an angry Angel. Sure, it just buys time -- but time is really the only thing you need in this matchup. Unlike Swords or anything else that narrow, this card has the distinct advantage of being a fine counter to whatever hate the Oath player may have. Null Rod? Choke? Chalice of the Void? They all can be returned to the Oath player's hand, giving you the opportunity to get that crucial Yawgmoth's WIll or Tinker through.

Victory against an Oath player comes in one of two general flavors. First, there is the combo finish. Sometimes this is the result of a long, protracted draw-go game -- those are the good ones. Sometimes this is the result of seeing lethal damage next turn and making Slaver go off. Sometimes it works, sometimes not so much. The other path to victory is taking a couple of their turns in a row. A single Mindslaver activation will seldom be lethal, but two or three usually will be. You want to make the opponent Oath with no creatures in his library, stack Gaea's Blessing, and then cast a draw spell.

As for REB. That card is subpar against Oath. I'm not concerned about their blue spells at all.

[Eandori]

Most of what The Atog Lord said has been my experience playing against Oath as well.  If I can get the match to middle or late game my chances are much higher.  That's why anything that slows him down or trips him up even for a turn or two is huge.  If I can plow his creature, disenchant the oath, get a plat into play, etc.  That might be enough to get me past the first 3 turns so I'm more deadly to him.

Getting welders into play just flat out is not that hard against oath.  He either needs to avoid casting his oath so he can keep counter magic up for welder (which is good because we move towards mid/late game.)  Or the oath player can play his oath aggresively (risking drain or FoW) then counter the welders as they come out which either drops him 2 blue cards with a force, or removes a drain/leak from his hand.  If I can bleed counters from his hand with him countering my welders, then the counters in my hand can build up more to win the big counter-war.

MoxLotus sounds pretty convinced that all the Oath players I go up against are bad Oath players.  I'm not sure they would agree with him   The oath player countering my welders, or trying to is really not that bad for me.  I can move to other tactics.  BTW, if I played an Oath player that did that, I would probably sideboard differently for him then the list I posted before.  Remember, I said those SB lists were just starting places.

As for REB. That card is subpar against Oath. I'm not concerned about their blue spells at all.

Well, we will just have to agree to disagree on this point.  REB is strong against any deck that plays almost entirely blue cards.  Especially when I'm aggresively using them to stop my bombs from getting counterspelled.

[Moxlotus]

Slaver is the control against Oath.  It should be worried about stopping opposing threats more than protecting its own bombs.  This is why REB is terrible against Oath.  Plus it doesn't stop Duress which Oath should be playing.

[forests failed you]

Slaver has inevitability in this match up, all it has to do is not die, and it wins almost through default.  I have never had much trouble beating Oath;  However, I played against an Oath deck last Saturday that was actually really good.  It was playing Boseiju in the sideboard and Krosan Reck, Recoup and Will.  I beat it but it was a pretty stellar combo.  Beating down with fat creatures is just so newbaliscious, and you can almost always combo off before they can actually beat yøu down as long as they don't resolve Oath on turn one.

My board plan with Slaver is always cheep spells that buy me time, because if I can do that I can almost always figure out how to win in the meantime. 

[Metman]

I think this thread has died out a bit lately and I see another thread started about a basic Swamp being played in CS.  Also earlier is this thread there were discussions about playing Crucible/Strip.  I don't think there is a general consensus yet but I've been playing it to good success.  It helps give the deck more disruption and helps to fight other Wastelands and Strips out there.  The mana base of CS is already in a shaky state and I find that is the main reason that I lose when playing this deck.  This leads me to the point I wanted to bring up. 

I felt that the reason Keeper died out was because of two reasons.  First, the reactive state of the deck could find enough solid answers to stop the up and coming decks out there.  The second was its vulnerable mana base.  I view CS as the deck that Keeper evolved into; its a proactive control deck with main deck silver bullets in the form of artifacts and up to 5 metagame slots.  On the other hand the mana base is only slightly better than that of Keepers.  When I ran Keeper back in the day I played Teferi's Response in the side when facing a deck that attacked my mana base.  It proved a powerfull addition to saving my lifeline plus it fueled my hand.  Resolving a turn 1-3 Teferi's Response usually meant game over because of it not only allowing me to draw 2 more cards but it destroyed the Wasteland and saved my own.  The turn of events the card presented was undeniably powerfull. 

The sideboard in CS is already very very tight but is there room for Teferi's Response?

[MoxMonkey]

Terferi's Response has been looked at, laughed at, tested and everything points to it just being a big waste.  If you top deck the turn after they waste now you have a dead card.  Having it and they don't draw a Wasteland dead draw.  And the list can go on and on like that.  Annul is better since it hits Oath and Stax and can take a 2-3 spot.  If you can get Response to resolve it is the stupidest thing ever and the game does almost end because of Tempo but its a dead card so many times or you get pissed ripping it the turn after you need it so its probably not worth playing.

Crucible has been in almost every list for some time as a way to deal with Stax and help out the mana base.  CS has one of the most solid mana bases in the format.  Gifts has 5/4 or 5/5 Basic islands/Fetchlands while Slaver has 4/4 or 4/5.  Gifts only runs an extra basic over most Control Slaver decks so thinking Slavers mana base is bad is probably wrong maybe your base is built differently.  Slaver can be built like in the old Mainboard Blood Moon days With 5 or 6 Basic Islands without any problems if you fear Wastelands but 4 has been more than enough.  Its mainly on how you want to play it.  I have DSC, Crucible, Triskelion, Mindslaver in my main board right now and have won games off Crucible Strip mine.  I have my Second Mindslaver in my board since its bad against Fish and Random decks which were running around NY.  I would mainboard it again in a Combo or Gifts heavy metagame.

[Evenpence]

I used to play Response when Landstill was semi-big, and I can vouch to the card being insane huge when it resolves.  Plus, no one expects it.  "You're playing WHAT?"  It gets a good laugh if nothing else.

It's too narrow though.  If it were activated and triggered it would see play as an anti-stax card.  You could kill their stax!  It would be hilarious.  I would go to every tourney playing 4 Response in my SB.

But as is, the card is horrible.

[pyr0ma5ta]

Why are we even considering Teferi's Responce?

Annul is so much better, it's huge against Oath, Stax (all flavors, it even hits Choke/ITEOC/Chains).  The maindeck Crucible is also huge against both Oath and Stax, and isn't dead even against non-wasteland decks since it has great synergy with the fetches that you will definitely have drawn, making your Brainstorms that much better. 

[Flux]

Why are we even considering Teferi's Responce?

Annul is so much better, it's huge against Oath, Stax (all flavors, it even hits Choke/ITEOC/Chains).  The maindeck Crucible is also huge against both Oath and Stax, and isn't dead even against non-wasteland decks since it has great synergy with the fetches that you will definitely have drawn, making your Brainstorms that much better. 

Why are we even considering stax as a problem?

Annul is good but I would rather let them play their hand and then completely wreck them, with a rack and ruin or a mox monkey.  I feel confident that I could beat stax without sideboarding. 

We should be talking about how to beat combo, like grim long or dragon, control slaver's worst matchups.

Flux

[pyr0ma5ta]

Oath is a perenially bad matchup too, which is why I was talking about bringing in 4 annul, and perhaps creature solutions as Dup/Gilded Drake and boarding out dumb 1/1s.

I agree that combo is a terrible matchup, and winning really hinges on not losing, finding a Drain, casting, it, then getting a slaver activated.  It's really the best thing you can do against either of these decks. 

[MoxMonkey]

Stax can be beat without Boarding I board a Rack and Ruin and maybe hurklys Recall if I feel like it.  I have had annuls because the metagame was a ton of Oath and I mainboarded an Aether spellbomb which should show something that isn't common.

Combo isn't that hard to beat My board has alot of Utility and the fact that it hits on every deck I can think of makes it really solid I think

2 REB
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre / FTK#3 / Pyro #2 / REB #3 / Welder kill
Board for Fish and REBs for Control

1 Hurkly's Recall
1 Rack and Ruin
Stax if I'm not lazy

1 Rushing River
1 Aether Spellbomb
Oath / Enchantment Bounce

1 Pentavus
2 FTK
Random Aggro / Pentavus can go in against Stax but I like Triskelion more

1 tormod's Crypt
1 Mindslaver
2 Blood Moon

This has been my way to Deal with combo for a while now.  Finding and Activating a Slaver is Game against Combo since they have so many I lose Cards when this happens.  I have a Crypt mainboard so theres 2 in the board plan which slows down / Stops a Crazy Grim tutor into yawgmoth's will for the win.  Blood Moon Beats 5C dragon and Grim Long once its resolved as I said before they have 3 Outs 2 of which are not permanent Mana sources.  Dragon also has to play around Crypt which isn't hard but does buy a few Turns.  Strip Mine is Big against Dragon since taking out a bazaar after they discard one could be what leads you to winning.

[Flux]

I think that I found a way of dealing with combo and other bad matchups all with a few cards.  I need to playtest it a ton more before I let anyone know.  Also I don't want Eric from GWS knowing how I will beat him.

I like Blood Moon, but I hate it at the same time.  It stops all of my black mana, which sucks.  I would run blood moon if I was running a swamp though.

Minslaver is very good, but just too slow against certain combo decks.

Flux

[pyr0ma5ta]

The best card in the deck against combo is Mindslaver.  No doubt about it.  They have infy cards that insta lose under slaver, and even if you can't ruin them completely, you can tutor up yawgwill, cast it and then burn all their rituals and leave them with no gas left in the deck.  Plays like Ritual, Ritual, DT into Necro, pay 20, are easy enough.  Against Dragon, you can just Bazaar a couple times, pitch their business spells, and animate a squee or something.  These plays will set them sufficiently far behind enough to set up the slaver lock.

Crypt is great against both of these decks, for reasons that should be obvious.

The problem, of course, is living long enough to get a slaver activated.  It's key to get Drain up as early as possible, and be a good player and mull aggressively into forces.  Does anyone else board red blasts against storm?  Are they good enough when you hit a ancestral or brainstorm?  Or is it better to bring in crypts and arcane lab?  Any other tech other people have?

Pretty sure that Strip Mine has been decided to be terrible in Slaver.  It doesn't have synergy with the rest of the deck and it's just not relevant in any matchup.  And it hurts the probability of having UU.  Bad times.

[Flux]

I disagree completely with the statement that stripmine is bad in slaver.  It rarely is in my opening hand, and the games that it is, I usually win.  Being able to set up an early slaver lock, with a deck that has counterspells is insane!  

Slaver has always had cards that don't have synergy with the rest of the deck, those are the metagame cards.  

Red blast isn't all that good against combo.  After loosing to Eric I realized why they were bad, the majority of his deck is black.

In regard to what JDizzle said:  I kind of agree.  The times that I slavered my opponent, who was playing combo, and it did something were rare.  I remember I slaver Morrison once and he had a necropotence in play, how lucky for me.  To beat combo you need to do one of three things, destroy their mana, destroy their hand, or destroy their win condition (example: jester's cap, swords(against dragon), stifle).  This is another reason that I would run strip mine, as it is an out against combo.

Slaver lock is ideal, but that is true against any deck...

Flux

[Eandori]

Usually, when I've been Slavered with combo, it's because I'm already resource screwed and can't play anything in my hand.

Well, this pretty much agrees exactly with how I play against combo.  Strip mines and Shaman can give me that edge I need to stop him from "going off" long enough for me to win.

Slaver has always had cards that don't have synergy with the rest of the deck, those are the metagame cards.

Typically true.  But there are some cards I metagame that I truely believe DO fit the synergy of the deck.  Strip mine is a perfect example.  With a crucible, demonic, vampiric, and 2 gifts I find that strip mine has actually won me quite a few games.  Either by removing my opponents mana, or threatening to do so and forcing him into a corner.  Strip Mine is a meta game card for me because it mainly helps me against decks like Stax, Dragon, Gifts, etc.

I disagree completely with the statement that stripmine is bad in slaver.  It rarely is in my opening hand, and the games that it is, I usually win.  Being able to set up an early slaver lock, with a deck that has counterspells is insane!

I fully agree, the strip mine in my slaver build has often been more advantageous then my Library of Alexandria was.  The way my build works, getting the crucible into play is one of my main goals, because that's a big step to my slaver lock.  All the while, if I get a crucible into play, then a strip mine in hand/play/graveyard is VERY threatening to my opponent.

Again, and I can't say this enough, if I have a crucible on the board, and a strip mine known to my opponent, he will probably play differently to keep himself ready to deal with a strip-lock.  With slaver, I need any advantage I can get to help me get closer to slaver lock.

Red blast isn't all that good against combo.  After loosing to Eric I realized why they were bad, the majority of his deck is black.

When I play combo decks with lots of non-blue, I don't tend to board in REB's either.  I think that calling gifts ungiven decks, TPS, etc. all "combo" decks is a too general of label.  Those decks work very similarly, but truthfully really are different decks.

I like Blood Moon, but I hate it at the same time.  It stops all of my black mana, which sucks.  I would run blood moon if I was running a swamp though.

I've had the same thought about Blood Moon.  But I just don't like changing my mana base that much to support the blood moon.  I don't feel it buys me enough versus the decks it hurts, compared to other things I can do to those decks that help me more versus the rest of the field.  Hehe, I bet that came out weird.  I hope it made sense.

Combo isn't that hard to beat My board has alot of Utility and the fact that it hits on every deck I can think of makes it really solid I think

That's pretty much what I find too.  I don't seem to have many issues with Fish/Gifts/Tendrils/Oath.  Stax and Dragon are much more threatening to my build.

I agree that Terifi's Response will be a dead card more then it will be secret tech.  At least in my build I'm sure it's true.

Slaver is the control against Oath.  It should be worried about stopping opposing threats more than protecting its own bombs.

Perhaps this is why our opinions of the deck disagree.  All my playtesting showed me that if I take on the aggro roll against Oath I win more often.  When I play permission with Oath and try to stop his threats I seem to just miss out on windows where I could have resolved a welder and a thirst for the win.

That's why I eventually moved to the aggresive roll against Oath and use REB to force my bombs through. 

Thanks for all the great points guys. 

[NaNaKy3k]

A bit offtopic, i dont know what type of oponents with oath are you playing agains, but if with Cs you win agains oath the most of the times, star changing your test-mates

Cs is a good deck, but not defend it at all cost, Oath beats Slaver, asume it

If both, oath and cs go for the beatdown, Oath wins, unless slaver has the nutzs, to beat you I only need 1g, and afther that a counterspell/chalize/strip mine/wasteland/duress

How many mana do you need in order to rush me?

[Flux]

It isn't good to assume anything, especially when it comes to type one.  It only takes one duplicant and a welder, or an echoing truth, or a jester's cap activation to beat that deck.  Oath does not beat CS most of the time, and I have played against the best.  I think at best it is about 50/50, but that is pushing it.  I believe that control slaver has the upper hand most of the time.  I have only lost one game in a tournament against Oath, mainly because he had first turn Oath, how lucky...

Flux

[forests failed you]

Cs is a good deck, but not defend it at all cost, Oath beats Slaver, asume it

If both, oath and cs go for the beatdown, Oath wins, unless slaver has the nutzs, to beat you I only need 1g, and afther that a counterspell/chalize/strip mine/wasteland/duress

This is a damned dirty lie.

Oath does not beat Slaver more than half of the time.
Perhaps the Slaver players you are playing against are not exactly up to par.

I've been testing the match up against Michael Jacob (five time PT player, and day 2 at worlds this year) and Paul Niccolo (Vintage notable designer of UW Fisholos, top eight @ SCG Chicago).  Both extremly solid players.  Slaver wins.

Also, the learning curve to competently play Slaver is infinately higher than that of Oath.  The reason  that the misconception of Oath beats Slaver exists is that if two players are mediocre in playskill, since the learning curve is higher in Slaver the advantage goes to the Oath player.  However, if both players are very skilled, the advantage is to the Slaver player because they have the more difficult but ultimately more powerful deck in their hands. 

If Slaver has a problem match up it is Gifts, not Oath.

[pyr0ma5ta]

Also, the learning curve to competently play Slaver is infinately higher than that of Oath.  The reason  that the misconception of Oath beats Slaver exists is that if two players are mediocre in playskill, since the learning curve is higher in Slaver the advantage goes to the Oath player.  However, if both players are very skilled, the advantage is to the Slaver player because they have the more difficult but ultimately more powerful deck in their hands. 

If Slaver has a problem match up it is Gifts, not Oath.

Arr, as a mediocre player myself, I find that I have problems beating Oath in game 1, but in game 2 and 3 I never lose after 4 annuls come in.  I lost a match to Oath at my last tourney because he topdecked 3 Oaths in a row, and smashed oath twice. Oath is not a problem matchup, despite the number of mediocre creatures that Slaver plays.

Slaver also has problems with Bazaar decks, because nothing I do matters if Cerebral Assassin resolves a turn 1 welder, or Dragon goes turn 1 bazaar, turn 2 intuition for Squee, Squee, Dragon. 

[MoxMonkey]

Gorilla Shaman made my List because he stops other Welders and has saved me from at least 20 Titans from comming into play.

Dragon/CA  can be dealt with by sideboarding 2 Crypts and 2 stifle(Been the best for me but the list for Sideboard potential cards is so huge against Dragon and Titan).  Stopping a random Titan comming into play and or Removing the dragons board or stopping a weld is huge and can turn the match around in your favor. 

Oath has a million ways from the board Duplicant, Aether spellbomb, bounce then its learning the matchup and just using your Sideboarded cards to your advantage.

[Moxlotus]

Cs is a good deck, but not defend it at all cost, Oath beats Slaver, asume it

If both, oath and cs go for the beatdown, Oath wins, unless slaver has the nutzs, to beat you I only need 1g, and afther that a counterspell/chalize/strip mine/wasteland/duress

This is a damned dirty lie.

Oath does not beat Slaver more than half of the time.
Perhaps the Slaver players you are playing against are not exactly up to par.

I've been testing the match up against Michael Jacob (five time PT player, and day 2 at worlds this year) and Paul Niccolo (Vintage notable designer of UW Fisholos, top eight @ SCG Chicago).  Both extremly solid players.  Slaver wins.

Also, the learning curve to competently play Slaver is infinately higher than that of Oath.  The reason  that the misconception of Oath beats Slaver exists is that if two players are mediocre in playskill, since the learning curve is higher in Slaver the advantage goes to the Oath player.  However, if both players are very skilled, the advantage is to the Slaver player because they have the more difficult but ultimately more powerful deck in their hands. 

If Slaver has a problem match up it is Gifts, not Oath.

I must diagree.  As an Oath player I hope to play CS every round--it is my favorite match to play depending on their build.  A properly build Oath deck (namely, GWS Oath) will beat Slaver decks that aren't maindecking hate against Oath more often than not.  However, if CS has a maindeck platz or Cap things get infinitely worse, possibly down to unfavorable and certainly worse than even.  However, most Slaver decks don't run them.  

Standard slaver build is easier to beat than Burning Slavery is easier to beat than maindeck Cap or Platz.

I'd say standard slaver is pretty favorable, burning slavery around even, and CS with cap or Platz as unfavorable.

Note:  I've never played against Slaver with 4 Annul.  I can only imagine how much that sucks.

That said, I don't think there will ever be a consensus on this issue.  

[pyr0ma5ta]

I think a strong board plan against Oath is more than sufficient, since game 2 and 3 are a lock with 12 counterspells, especially if boarding a Dup too.

Annuls are not wasted space either, they also can come in against Stax, or even Dragon.  As I said, Annuls were amazing for me in the 3 matches I played against Oath.  I smashed it twice, and only lost 1 sideboarded game to a bad beat.

[forests failed you]

Hmm, maybe I'm just so good that it should be a bad match up but I smash it anyways; but that seems doubtful.

MEDIOCRE CREATRUES??!!! Are you JK? 

Slaver plays with the two best creatures in the format Shaman and Welder.  I rarely even board them out against Oath, maybe one Shaman at most.  THey are so fing good.  Annul seems pretty saucy, but four seems like overkill and stongly limits the amount of other card you get to play in the board.

In my opinion tournaments are won via Versitility and Flexibility and not consistency and narrowness.

I run maindeck Dup now over Trike;  and I would strongly recomend others do this as well.  Trike is only better than Dup in the Slaver mirror match.  In every other Matchup Dups is vastly better.  He gets around Null Rods in Uba Stax to kill welders, he Hits Gifts Darksteel Colossus, and Oath's guys. 

Mindslaver is your best tool for beating Oath in game one.  so you have to stay alive long enough to get it up and running.  Play your cards smartly and stop turn one and two Oath from resolving and they almost can't stop you.  Burning Slaver does have a lot of advantages ove regular CS in this Match up as you can also Tendrils for the win.  Sometimes you can just race their three turn Clock.

[Evenpence]

It's been my experience that Shaman is uber horrible against Oath.  He does like, nothing for you.

He removes permanents for stax, but I can't imagine how he would be good in Slaver against Oath.  He kills moxes.  Okay?  What benefit does that get you?

If I played CS, the shamans would def. come out, the welders would not.

[forests failed you]

he kills null rods and chalices and pithing needles.  I don't know which of these are comming in or out, but I'm not going to be unprepared for it.

[Evenpence]

Five mana to kill a Null Rod seems like a hefty investment.  I can see the Chalices and Pithing Needle argument, though.  Do Oath lists side in alot of Needles?