[Single Card Discussion] Sarcomancy

[AmbivalentDuck]

Sarcomancy is an unusual card to discuss because it hasn't seen much play outside of Sui.  And not even Sui plays it right now.   That said, it's almost strictly better than Isamaru and Savannah Lions, both of which semi-successfully/successfully saw play in KirdApe's deck.  If a black permutation of Fish becomes viable, should it include Sarcomancy?

Strong points:
-In theory, Sarcomancy is extremely strong against Stax.  The enchantment can be sacrificed to Smokestack with no ill effects and some gains. (edited)
-A 2/2 for B with a negligable downside.  Like Isamaru and Savannah Lions in Kirdape's build (cited above), it creates a strong clock in combination with the 2cc lock-piece bears.  Unlike Isamaru, it's actually better in multiples.  Unlike Savannah Lions, Fire/Ice is not a huge issue.
-"Combos" with Echoing Truth (bounce the enchantment).  Maybe strong enough to run 1-2 maindeck Echoing Truth (generally useful anyways)?

Weak points:
-A vanilla 2/2 is never spectacular in Vintage.  Unless it's attacking alongside other creatures, the clock is negligable.
-In many cases, Duress is a purely superior play.
-Cannot be cast using Aether Vial.


Theoretically, it's a strictly better "clock" creature than either Isamaru or Savannah Lions because it also buys tempo against Stax.  Using a *sample* list (which is most definitely *not* my current list), I'd like to discuss its possible role.  This was a test build from Dec 12th, that I used to test this concept over 15 games (1 Uba Stax matchup, 4 5cc Stax matchups).

1 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
1 Strip Mine
2 Snow-Covered Plains (Snow-covered for the art, feel free to read it as Plains)
2 Underground Sea
R Black Lotus
R Mox Sapphire
R Mox Pearl
R Mox Jet

4 Swords to Plowshares
R Time Walk
R Ancestral Recall
R Demonic Consultation
4 Duress
R Demonic Tutor
2 Seal of Cleansing

4 Sarcomancy
4 Dark Confidant
3 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Meddling Mage
2 Stormscape Apprentice
3 True Believer
4 Withered Wretch

SB:
1 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Seal of Cleansing
3 Darkblast
2 Pithing Needle
2 Nezumi Shortfang--Stabwhisker the Odious
2 Stormscape Apprentice

This is an inferior B/W/u Fish build.  I call it inferior because I went out of my way to test it against Stax and discovered something odd: instead of winning ~65% of its games (I'll be happy to substantiate this with my current and former builds), it was losing 65% of its games.  Other builds of the B/W/u concept used a full complement of Moxen or Aether Vials to make tempo.  I figured that (at least in the Stax matchup), the Sarcomancies should do the same thing.  Instead, I was starkly wrong.  Because a deck like this requires a difficult-to-disrupt clock and/or card advantage engine to beat Stax, it relies on dropping a 2cc spell first turn (Confidant or Kataki), or alternatively Vialing one out.  If cutting Sarcomancies to put in Moxen and/or Vials is necessary, does it have any place at all?

Open question: Does Sarcomancy belong in black Fish builds as a clock creature that buys extra tempo against Stax?  If so, what else has to be included to make it successful?

[Brutha]

In theory, Sarcomancy is extremely strong against Stax.  The enchantment can be tapped for Tangle Wire or sacrificed to Smokestack with no ill effects and some gains.

At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player taps an untapped artifact, creature, or land he or she controls for each fade counter on Tangle Wire.

Unfortuneatly no Enchantment.

An additional Disadvantage is that Echoing Truth kills your Zombie Token.

Concerning the decklist:
Is it built for a aggro meta?
4 Swords, 24 creatures, 0 Chalice and 0 Null Rod looks wired.
It looks much more like a White Weenie Decklist with Black for better creatures and Duress. White Weenie is not necassary a bad deck, but it is no Fish.

[AmbivalentDuck]

If trying to "combo" Echoing Truth and Sarcomancy, you would bounce the enchantment, not the token.  If someone really wants to waste an Echoing Truth on the zombie token (over the much more threatening Mages), it's not really a problem.

Chalice and Null Rod are both powerful, but when you run either 5 Moxen or Aether Vial, they cause issues.  Specifically, Null Rod isn't the card it once was and Chalice is only good when you go first.  This deck was designed to test the useful of Sarcomancy, not to win tournaments.  The current and former (useful) builds will be placed in a different thread when I have enough recognizable names in my playtest list to back up my results.

The inclusion of four Swords to Plowshares has little to do with aggro and much to do with Welder and Colossus.  Around ~50% of Consults and Demonic Tutors fetch StP. (Or Yawg Will into StP and goodies)

In terms of looking like "White Weenie":  The only thing "White Weenie" in the whole deck is the Sarcomancy.  This deck definitely plays the resource denial game: the clock is only necessary to kill them before they can get their win strategy back up.

[Cavius The Great]

I dont know if u mentioned this, but I'd like to point out that bouncing a sarcomancy and replaying it gives you an ADDITIONAL token creature.

[That0neguy]

Personally i like the idea of this deck in droping a bunch utility cretues and denying them resources.  The only think I would do is maby add standstills over a couple of the less universal cretures such as kitaki and while sarcomany is decent I just don't think It has enough power being a 10 turn clock that doesn't do anything else really, however it is good for the curve.

Im curious what lock componets where you running in your stax builds?  I always remember doing poorly against aggro decks if they can get a fast clock on the board befre I can start smokestacking them out.  Also sacred ground would help the match up alot.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I played over MWS against what were seemingly netdecked Stax builds (they didn't lack or add anything odd).  I ignored the two game 1s against idiots (Ie. Knowing that Smokestack doesn't target, or Mystical Tutor can't fetch Workshop even though it's a "mana source").  As far as Stax losing to random aggro, that's completely untrue.  Stax really only loses to strong disruption, exceedingly fast kills, or a difficult to disrupt clock.

On another note, Standstill is a horrible suggestion in the list above: it wants to cast spells.  Simply put, a lone FoW is seldom enough to really disrupt anyone who hasn't "lost" by turn 3 anyways.  Two extra Waterfront Bouncer/Flying Men aren't going to win against Stax or Gifts, either.

Conversely, both Gifts and Stax really don't want to deal with 6 damage each turn from disruption bears.  They'd rather play their game and treat your creatures as an easy to defeat clock.  When your creatures (ie Kataki) provide strong disruption, they're forced to interact with your bears (which is completely unnappealing) while you keep them on a clock.  The only real purpose of Sarcomancy is to speed up the clock in a way that annoys Stax.

Since quantitative experiments revealed that I'm better off Moxing into an early Kataki or Confidant or just casting Duress, the question is whether Sarcomancy failed as a card or if my test deck just needed a different setup to "abuse" it.

[Imsomniac101]

IMO you should stick to two colours. If you'd like help testing and tuning I'd be happy to help. just PM me.

[Fantaman]

Mhm beware.... Dark confinant in this deck are tooo strong with: CABAL TERAPHY! EHHEHE

Put 3 null rods main deck pleaseeee!

And now you will have more results...!

Last words: Yes u can make 2 color deck with BW and no Blue... If you don't PLAY FORCE OF WILL....there's no sense in Type1 play blue color hiihhihi!

[AmbivalentDuck]

Null Rod?  Against what? 

-Belcher: Pithing Needle is strictly better because you can play it out of your opening hand without a Mox.

-Moxen: Kataki swings for 2 each turn.

-Workshop Aggro: You're losing this preboard anyways.  Post-board, they can't fight out from under Energy Flux in multiples or Energy Flux plus Kataki.  I chose not to run Energy Flux in the board because Stax almost cannot win against Energy Flux + Kataki.  The question was Sarcomancy, not my ability to steamroll Stax.

Cabal Therapy has no place in this deck.  This isn't Sui, I'm not looking to sacrifice utility creatures.

As far as cutting blue, Underground Sea is little worse than basic Swamp.  The small splash allows consistent access to Meddling Mages, Energy Flux, and Ancrestral/Time Walk.

[Fantaman]

Blue deck without forces no SENSE....

Needle agaist BELCHER? ............................. .Rod is better toooo much HE DOESN'T PLAY ANYTHING!

Yes kataky it's strong but with no forces you have to play a lock bomb like a Null Rod.

That's my idea.

Yes energy flux and mages are too strong bug with any counter.....I suppose it's a dead battle for this deck until the begin!

Byez

Last words: Cabal it's strong because you may destroy your opponent hand......remember!

[UR]

I don't think playing Echoing Truth on a Sarcomancy is a very spectacular play. If you want the extra token creature that bad there are more effective ways of doing it (heck, Cloudstone Curio does a better job). I can't think of many situations where I would want to throw away a good answer to a lot of problems just to make an extra 2/2 creature.

[DarkDeal]

I would rather go B/U with it. Mesmeric Fiend is pretty good in this type of deck too. Black is a better color than white for almost anything in T1 also.

I dont think Swords are needed either. If you are using them to target Welders, Darkblast is almost stricktly better. If you are trying to target an Oath creature or DSC with it, then you can just tap it down with Apprentice.

Withered Wretch is also pretty bomby in T1 against a lot of decks.

The ability to play Confidant almost makes black better than white just by itself.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I don't think playing Echoing Truth on a Sarcomancy is a very spectacular play. If you want the extra token creature that bad there are more effective ways of doing it (heck, Cloudstone Curio does a better job). I can't think of many situations where I would want to throw away a good answer to a lot of problems just to make an extra 2/2 creature.

Right. That's exactly the problem: "When is a vanilla 2/2 good enough?"  Even with three Sarcomancies on the board, I'd think long and hard about bouncing them with an Echoing Truth as opposed just holding the card.

I would rather go B/U with it. Mesmeric Fiend is pretty good in this type of deck too. Black is a better color than white for almost anything in T1 also.

I dont think Swords are needed either. If you are using them to target Welders, Darkblast is almost stricktly better. If you are trying to target an Oath creature or DSC with it, then you can just tap it down with Apprentice.

Withered Wretch is also pretty bomby in T1 against a lot of decks.

The ability to play Confidant almost makes black better than white just by itself.

Cut Swords to Plowshares?  Cut a versatile one-mana, instant answer to Welder, Workshop Aggro, FCG, Fish, Oath, and Tinker->DSC? I don't WANT a Darkblast in my hand when I'm staring at DSC, nor do I want Apprentice in my hand when I'm staring down an eminent Slaver or Stax lock.

Mesmeric Fiend is closer to debatable.  This has been debated in black Fish threads and elsewhere, but the basic conclusion has always been that Duress is better.  A 1/1 body is not sufficent to create a clock.  Illustrated:

You: Land, Mox, Fiend: Take Tinker (against gifts)
Them: Land, Mox, tutor for Cunning/Burning Wish
You: Land, Mox, Confidant/Kataki/True Believer, Meddling Mage *could* end the game if you know which Wish your opponent tutored for. Good luck resolving the Meddling Mage, though.
Them: Land, accelerant, Burning Wish, Pyroclasm
You: Resolve Confidant w00t!
Them: Tinker for DSC with backup: you lose.

Alternatively, you could have let them overcommit with the early Tinker, and Duressed out their backup to make an StP hit.  A resolved Wretch, Meddling Mage, True Believer, or Dark Confidant now ends the game with True Believer and Meddling Mage as hard locks. 

Personally, I also hold that Duress is superior against both Stax and storm combo.

[Chamelet]

I don't think playing Echoing Truth on a Sarcomancy is a very spectacular play. If you want the extra token creature that bad there are more effective ways of doing it (heck, Cloudstone Curio does a better job). I can't think of many situations where I would want to throw away a good answer to a lot of problems just to make an extra 2/2 creature.

Well, it would really be stupid to throw away a Truth like that. But remember you could have 2-4 Sarcomancy in play. Then, a Echoing Truth turns it into a swarm. That said, I don't think you should run it in this deck. You should run 1-2 Misdirecions and use opposing Truths for that.

So, a list I think is better is:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Strip Mine
1 Swamp
2 Island
R Black Lotus
R Mox Sapphire
R Mox Pearl
R Mox Jet

4 CotV / Null Rod
2 Swords to Plowshares
R Time Walk
R Ancestral Recall
4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
R Demonic Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 FoW
2 Misdirection

4 Sarcomancy
3 Dark Confidant
3 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Meddling Mage
2 Stormscape Apprentice

(haven't tested it though)

[AmbivalentDuck]

Perhaps you could state why you believe that your build is superior? 

I've said repeatedly that the list given isn't optimal in that it was the bastard child of a deck with solid win ratios against every tier 1/1.5 deck.  Sarcomany in the particular list failed.  This discussion was bumped into the improvement forum solely because it deals with Sarcomancy.  Had I found mixed results with the card and posted transcripts epitomizing its pros and cons, this topic would not have been moved.  The list it came from is solid, other descendants of that list have been solid.  I know why the deck failed.  I know why Sarcomancy no longer populates my (white) Fish lists. 

The open question is whether I missed a means of exploiting Sarcomancy, not how to "improve" a concept that already failed. Sarcomancy does not belong in (white) Fish.  Using Sarcomancy requires a specific condition:  a deck with a solid game against Gifts, Slaver, and Tendrils-based strategies that has problems with Stax.  The key here is that a combination of Kataki and Energy Flux simply rolls Stax: a deck running both along with StP can consider Stax a bye.

Since monoblack Fish lists usually have issues with Stax...maybe Sarcomancy could find a place there.  The problem is that monoblack Fish has no real answer to DSC or Slaver and thus loses spectacularly to *both* Drain and Workshop based control strategies.

[hollowbody]

Cut Swords to Plowshares?  Cut a versatile one-mana, instant answer to Welder, Workshop Aggro, FCG, Fish, Oath, and Tinker->DSC? I don't WANT a Darkblast in my hand when I'm staring at DSC, nor do I want Apprentice in my hand when I'm staring down an eminent Slaver or Stax lock.

If DSC is your primary concern, and it might be considering the dwindling numbers of fish lists, than you could always run chainer's edict. I know it costs more than STP, but it's just as useful. And eliminating white, which only seems to exist in your list because of STP, opens up more disruption slots, counter slots or bounce slots. I also think Darkblast is overrated. It's only 'good' due to the proliferation of powerful 1/1s, but in all honesty, DSC is a much more immediate threat than mox monkeys and welders. DSC simply makes you have to come up with an answer ASAP: anything 1/1 just makes you think of what lies ahead...which is usually DSC.

[Harlequin]

Using Sarcomancy requires a specific condition:  a deck with a solid game against Gifts, Slaver, and Tendrils-based strategies that has problems with Stax.  The key here is that a combination of Kataki and Energy Flux simply rolls Stax: a deck running both along with StP can consider Stax a bye.

I'm not sure I agree with that.  Stax in one way or another can play around Kataki and Flux.  However I agree with your point, but I would say any deck running Kataki, flux, Sacred Ground, and Swords can consider stax a bye.  Without sacred ground it is still a favorable matchup... but if the stax player has an abundance of barbrings + Reb (red stax) or Darkblast + Reb/Seals/Rays... plus welder tricks under flux/kataki, They can squirm thier way out.  Energy flux costs 3 mana wich is very much different from 2, and it can be Reb'ed.

But I totally agree with your first statement.  WU fish already has more tools than it needs to beat stax so sacromancy is rather worthless to it.

As suggested before, Sacromacy does not improve a white deck.  However dropping it into a BU fish deck (a deck that truely has an issue with stax) might yeild better results.

[nataz]

umm, if you are that worried about stax, why not just play mass artifact bounce. H-recall, Rebuild, and even Chais can be some good, and offer variable mana costs to get around chalice.

Plus, all of those also have the nice bonus of nailing DSC w/out putting you into a different color.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Mass artifact bounce is suboptimal against pretty much everything that isn't Stax.  Gilded Drake is no harder to use in a deck with Vials than Hurkyl's, Chain of Vapor, or Rebuild.  For that matter, Innocent Blood and Diabolic Edict both "fix" the big man.

The goal was to run dedicated hate that didn't look like dedicated hate.  Getting up that one permanent in the stack war theoretically negates most of the point of running it.  Turns out the theory doesn't predict what actually happens.  Vial was actually much better because it allowed me to sacrifice lands without losing tempo.  My current build runs neither Vial nor Sarcomancy as both are currently suboptimal.