Proxies: Yet another re-evaluation of a touchy subject

[Jacob Orlove]

The best system would be one where some tournaments allow a lot of proxies, getting people involved and interested, while other tournaments allowed few/no proxies, which both provides incentive to actually get the cards, and a reward to the people who have them.

I think we have a system like that already, as I detailed in this post (self-promoting necromancy ftw!). The incentive to buy cards is going up in the tournament structure. D.

I was hoping someone would notice that we already have that system. Especially with the increasing number of NE events that allow 10 + $5 proxies, I think we're doing very well in terms of accessibility.

[ELD]

In my "home court" Scholar's there is unlimited proxies.  I pushed for this a few years ago, and it has been great.  Players can play whatever they feel inclined to, and the metagame shifts quite a bit the place for such a small store.  100% proxies can work.  This system is clearly more beneficial for people who do not own power, which is the bulk of the players out there.  It certainly allows people to try vintage for real instead of playing an extended deck with a sol ring.  While that it is good to get people into the game, it is clearly not "fair" to have a system that only benefits those people who do not bother to get the cards to play the format. 

I think the only issue with allowing proxies is the damage it does to card values.  If every vintage tournament everywhere allowed proxies, then vintage only cards values would plummet.  That said, the Europeans seem to stay away from this proxy thing and hopefully with help to keep the price of power where it's at. 

The interesting thing about lower proxy limits is it rewards players who own full power and the core "vintage" cards.  If you own the P9, Drains forces and Duals, you can build just about anything with 5 or 10 proxies.  This means you don't have to get cards like Imperial Seal, Workshops/Bazaars and the many other powerful but metagame dependant cards.  It also allows you to wait and see where card values end up with cards like Grim Tutor.  It allows you to wait for cards like Pithing Needle to rotate out of type 2.  The lower limit proxy certainly can benefit players who both own and do not own power.

[benthetenor]

In my "home court" Scholar's there is unlimited proxies.  I pushed for this a few years ago, and it has been great.  Players can play whatever they feel inclined to, and the metagame shifts quite a bit the place for such a small store.  100% proxies can work.  This system is clearly more beneficial for people who do not own power, which is the bulk of the players out there.  It certainly allows people to try vintage for real instead of playing an extended deck with a sol ring.  While that it is good to get people into the game, it is clearly not "fair" to have a system that only benefits those people who do not bother to get the cards to play the format. 

I think the only issue with allowing proxies is the damage it does to card values.  If every vintage tournament everywhere allowed proxies, then vintage only cards values would plummet.  That said, the Europeans seem to stay away from this proxy thing and hopefully with help to keep the price of power where it's at. 

The interesting thing about lower proxy limits is it rewards players who own full power and the core "vintage" cards.  If you own the P9, Drains forces and Duals, you can build just about anything with 5 or 10 proxies.  This means you don't have to get cards like Imperial Seal, Workshops/Bazaars and the many other powerful but metagame dependant cards.  It also allows you to wait and see where card values end up with cards like Grim Tutor.  It allows you to wait for cards like Pithing Needle to rotate out of type 2.  The lower limit proxy certainly can benefit players who both own and do not own power.

I disagree that the only issue is with damaging card values. One that's easy to overlook but present nonetheless is that Magic is a trading card game, not just a mental exercise. The availability of the cards was factored into the design of the game, and playing the game otherwise is simply not playing the game as it was designed. I know a lot of the people on these boards couldn't care less, but while proxies boost tournament turnout, they kill the soul of the game. If you want to be able to play this game, you should have to invest in the core cards used in all of the strategies. I've seen more than a few people on this thread argue that Vintage is just too expensive, but the costs really do drop off once you buy expensive cards. I promise. You can spend $2000 today and spend ten bucks a month for the next 3 years to stay competitive in this format. There is no other format, aside from Legacy, that offers this, and even Legacy doesn't necessarily offer a core set of cards to buy.

Proxies are a short-term fix. In Europe where non-proxy tournaments are the norm rather than the exception, the turnouts are just fine. Better, in many cases, than turnouts here. To say that proxies even increase turnout is something of a shortsighted view. They bring in tons and tons of new players, but there is little to hold a player here now that the mystique and charm of the format has died. Play with the most expensive and powerful cards in the game? The ones that are so rare that you have to pay hundreds of dollars to obtain them? Sure, but you no longer have to work to get them. You can just write on a land card, and BAM!, Black Lotus. We are not yet to the point where it is impossible to get cards (as I write, there are over 20 Black Lotuses for sale on eBay), and until that day, Wizards will not back proxies.

For Type II, Limited and Extended there is the draw of cash, scholarships, Pro Points (meaning more money), exotic locales, and world-class competition. Vintage cannot possibly compete with that. Rather than being supported in any meaningful way by Wizards, the burden is shifted onto small store owners. Even the largest of these, Pete from SCG, cannot compete with Wizards. Our Pro Tour, the SCG Power series, offers prizes in the hundreds of dollars rather than in the thousands. It's still very impressive given that it's being backed by a single entity, and it's certainly better than the nothing that we would have received from Wizards, but Wizards can simply offer more. Now that we've created a format that doesn't even need Wizards support, there is absolutely no incentive for Wizards to support Vintage any more than it does currently. There was very little to begin with, but we were making headway with Wizards when the Vintage World Championship was created. Shortly thereafter, the SCG events were created and the community just stopped caring about Wizard's support. We don't ask Wizards to support the format anymore (at least not in any sort of way that we had before) because they won't go along with this fake format that we've created, and frankly, we'd rather play the fake format.

The fact that the metagames here are very, very different than the metagames in Europe is a testament to this dissonance of real v. fake, as Europe is, for the most part, playing the game as it should be, and we are, for the most part, not. The availability of cards is tied directly into the design of the game, and taking that factor away means that you're no longer playing Magic. Proxies belong in test beds, not in tournaments.

Flame away.

[Jacob Orlove]

I disagree that the only issue is with damaging card values. One that's easy to overlook but present nonetheless is that Magic is a trading card game, not just a mental exercise. The availability of the cards was factored into the design of the game, and playing the game otherwise is simply not playing the game as it was designed. I know a lot of the people on these boards couldn't care less, but while proxies boost tournament turnout, they kill the soul of the game.

That is simply not true. If you want to play magic as it was "originally designed," you would buy a starter and maybe 1-2 boosters and then just play with friends. You would not buy single cards, you would not go on the internet to learn about strategies and decks, you wouldn't even know what every card did!

The availability of cards was originally a consideration, but not at all in the same way it is now--cards were rare to ensure that no playgroup would have too many overly powerful cards. Now we have restrictions instead, and Organized Play. The soul of the game has changed over the years, and proxies are perfectly compatible with it.

[Godder]

Steve's point, I believe, is that he views Magic, and Vintage in particular, as a sport on par with chess and bridge. In that philosophy, there's no room for discussions of card values or the like, because card availability interferes, which is bad.

Ultimately, I agree with Steve - more proxies is good for Vintage.

[dicemanx]

Steve's point, I believe, is that he views Magic, and Vintage in particular, as a sport on par with chess and bridge. In that philosophy, there's no room for discussions of card values or the like, because card availability interferes, which is bad.

Ultimately, I agree with Steve - more proxies is good for Vintage.

Interestingly enough, chess is almost more like non-proxy magic events. If you want to succeed in becoming a good player, you need to invest heavily in books/databases, chess coaching (very expensive), and travel to get the necessary experience. As a result, those that have the money will be at a significant advantage over those who try to get by on raw talent and meager resources alone.

In my opinion, the interesting challenge in magic is what you manage to accomplish given the resources available to you. If that means unlimited proxies and all the info at your fingertips (such as decklists and strategy discussions on the internet), then so be it. But I think it can be just as exciting to play the role of the underdog when so called "optimal" archetypes are not within easy access. I would extend this to other issues such as publishing decklists or revealing tech - the more things are kept secret the more exciting and unpredictable the environment can become. In saying this, I am essentially agreeing fully with Dozer's post.

Basically it comes down to this - to make the game challenging and fun, is it NECESSARY to level the playing field by giving everyone access to everything? This has the danger of breeding laziness, slows down improvement, and quickly leads to boredom for players that don't invest themselves so heavily in the format (both financially and timewise), because to them its nothing but a boring mishmash of Gifts/Oath/Stax/CS. People have been complaining that the format is stagnant and lacks innovation when nothing further could be from the truth. I love the current format, moreso than at any point in the past actually, and I see so much opportunity and so many interesting viable options.


I think that the people that would bemoan the fact that they lack access to cards in 10 proxy or no proxy events are the same people that would bemoan the fact that T1 is stagnant and boring the moment everyone has access to everything.

[forests failed you]

If you don't want to eventually own all of the expensive cards, why even bother playing Vintage?  I understand it is good for building the community to offer proxies; but, seriously, Vintage has always been a format defined and controlled by collectors.   Ever since I started playing back during revised, Vintage was the format that people played because they wanted to use all of their expensive broken cards; it is the same thing up to this day.  I think ten is a perfectly acceptable number.  I would prefer less, because I hate looking at plains with Black Lotus written acrossed it. 

[Godder]

If you don't want to eventually own all of the expensive cards, why even
bother playing Vintage?

Because unlike other formats, the cardpool in Vintage doesn't change much. Sure, new sets are released, but they don't affect Vintage as much (I realise Mirrodin, Urza's Block and Onslaught Fetchlands changed things considerably, but they aren't exactly the norm). This makes it much closer to something like chess, where there are tweaks to theory, but major shake-ups are rare (although Magic theory still requires much development...).

I understand it is good for building the community to offer proxies; but, seriously, Vintage has always been a format defined and controlled by collectors.

Just because it has always been so, doesn't mean it has to remain so. Steve wants to wrest Vintage away from those who have no real stake in Vintage as a format. Some people agree with him, some don't - such is the essence of debate and discussion.

Interestingly enough, chess is almost more like non-proxy magic events. If you want to succeed in becoming a good player, you need to invest heavily in books/databases, chess coaching (very expensive), and travel to get the necessary experience. As a result, those that have the money will be at a significant advantage over those who try to get by on raw talent and meager resources alone.

Yes and no - only travel really applies to Magic, because a reasonable gamer can reach the upper echelons of Magic quite quickly by playing a lot and reading articles. Also, chess has systems for junior development which make a lot or all of the above available for free.

In my opinion, the interesting challenge in magic is what you manage to accomplish given the resources available to you. If that means unlimited proxies and all the info at your fingertips (such as decklists and strategy discussions on the internet), then so be it. But I think it can be just as exciting to play the role of the underdog when so called "optimal" archetypes are not within easy access. I would extend this to other issues such as publishing decklists or revealing tech - the more things are kept secret the more exciting and unpredictable the environment can become. In saying this, I am essentially agreeing fully with Dozer's post.

That's a reasonable viewpoint. It's not mine because I'm looking for something else when I play Magic (truth, I guess), and I doubt either of us will be able to convince the other to change their opinion, but I can certainly appreciate it as being valid. People play games for different reasons, after all, and even a lot of tournament chessplayers are only in it for the enjoyment and some modest performance aims (rather than trying to reach the top).

Basically it comes down to this - to make the game challenging and fun, is it NECESSARY to level the playing field by giving everyone access to everything? This has the danger of breeding laziness, slows down improvement, and quickly leads to boredom for players that don't invest themselves so heavily in the format (both financially and timewise), because to them it's nothing but a boring mishmash of Gifts/Oath/Stax/CS. People have been complaining that the format is stagnant and lacks innovation when nothing further could be from the truth. I love the current format, moreso than at any point in the past actually, and I see so much opportunity and so many interesting viable options.

I don't think more or fewer proxies will change that. People who innovate will continue to do so, and people who don't, won't. Besides, at least we don't have a "Keeper beats all!" environment any more!

I think that the people that would bemoan the fact that they lack access to cards in 10 proxy or no proxy events are the same people that would bemoan the fact that T1 is stagnant and boring the moment everyone has access to everything.

Some people are born whiners, no question about that .

[Dozer]

The best system would be one where some tournaments allow a lot of proxies, getting people involved and interested, while other tournaments allowed few/no proxies, which both provides incentive to actually get the cards, and a reward to the people who have them.

I think we have a system like that already, as I detailed in this post (self-promoting necromancy ftw!). The incentive to buy cards is going up in the tournament structure. D.

I was hoping someone would notice that we already have that system. Especially with the increasing number of NE events that allow 10 + $5 proxies, I think we're doing very well in terms of accessibility.

And the fact that this is so is what makes proxies acceptable. Personally, I wouldn't want to play in regions where I'd never have a sanctioned Vintage event because I'd be extremely bothered by proxies very soon. But if the sanctioned tournaments are there, and they are big and something to aspire too, proxies (maybe power only, maybe 10, maybe 10 +5$) in the local level events make perfect sense. You can use those low-level tournaments as testing grounds, make friends, get accustomed to how Vintage works without the huge pressure to shell out the bucks to play with the big guys (and guns).

Just two big ones like GenCon and Origins might even be enough to work up to, as are the National Champs in Europe. But to me, one thing is crystal clear: Non-proxy works on every level of the system, proxies work properly only on the lower level. Otherwise, what various people have been mentioning already becomes true: There'd be no need to have the cards at all. I know many people still hunt for them even though they wouldn't have to. On the other hand, though, look at the various threads and comments from the past few months in the vein of "sell out now, since the money's good and you can play proxies anyway".

Starcity's P9 series seems to defy the above comment. But did raising the proxy limit really raise attendance? I remember reading an analysis of this somewhere, but I can't find it right now, so if someone has the numbers, I'd be glad. As far as I remember, in the long run attendance stabilized at about the same numbers. And to be honest, if such a series would be run in Europe, it would be sanctioned and the turnouts wouldn't be lower at all.

Why is the rift between Europe and the US so big? We do well without proxies, why don't you? Or, on the other hand, why does Europe cling to the sanctioning (and even did so before the Eternal rating became relevant for Legacy GPs) when we could have proxies instead? (Even though proxies are there, the majority of tournaments ist still sanctioned.)

Dozer

[Eddie]

This just came to mind: wouldn't it be possible to link your DCI # with the number of proxie events you've played? With this system, you could allow a player to play in 5 events using proxies. After those 5 events, proxies are prohibited. This would enable new players to have a taste of the format. And if they like it, then they still need to buy the cards if they want to keep playing. You could even decrease the number of available proxies per event.

@Dozer: I'd Quote for truth all of your posts here.

[Fantaman]

My Commercial idea it's that proxies are a nice help to test new decks in the tournaments and there's a nice chance for scrub's players or unpowered players to try Jewels in their hands, or for Pro players to try new decks with other cards.

I'm a Vintage player and organizer! I've done many tournaments in my "Portfoilio" such as DOOMSDAY ( Over 350  players ) in italy with NO PROXIES.

In Italy players doesn't play with proxies and anyone organize proxies tournaments.

My heart says with my mind that Proxies are NOT MAGIC but probably will be a day that someone start to organize new Events with Proxies. The Only doubt or risk is that people that have Jewels will hate that tournaments...proxy events and you know that is not simple
to understand this idea( I'm the first    )

Is not easy this tread because the difference between U.S. and Italy is that U.S. need proxies because there's no sufficient cards ( probably it's my idea and is a bad idea ) to satisfy the commerce...! We know that Power Nines Jewels cards are not soooo much in the world

In fact now in italy there's no Proxy tournament. That's all!

Byez!

Fantaman

[Bauerkrieg]

If you don't want to eventually own all of the expensive cards, why even bother playing Vintage?  I understand it is good for building the community to offer proxies; but, seriously, Vintage has always been a format defined and controlled by collectors.   Ever since I started playing back during revised, Vintage was the format that people played because they wanted to use all of their expensive broken cards; it is the same thing up to this day.

I agree with Demars here completely. In the past few months there has been a good tournament scene in Detroit that supported 10 proxies. I own the power nine after three years of patient playing collecting and looking for the occasional deal on Ebay. One of the issues that i have found with Vintage is that you have to be patient. Unlimited proxies does spur new interest, but serious interest does require a investment of time and money as with any format.

[Machinus]

This just came to mind: wouldn't it be possible to link your DCI # with the number of proxie events you've played? With this system, you could allow a player to play in 5 events using proxies. After those 5 events, proxies are prohibited. This would enable new players to have a taste of the format. And if they like it, then they still need to buy the cards if they want to keep playing. You could even decrease the number of available proxies per event.

@Dozer: I'd Quote for truth all of your posts here.

That wouldnt work. Proxy events don't affect your rating, so players could just get fake numbers for all the proxy events they want to play in.

[Sunastian Falconer]

Hello, brief introduction here:
 
I’m a veteran player, had all the good stuff (except Lotus) but got out a few years back. Now I am taking baby steps toward returning to the game in general, and Vintage in particular. So I am following this discussion with interest.

There seems to be an idea that new players should have to make an “investment� in the format. In some ways I agree, though I don‘t believe acquiring cards should be the primary concern of Vintage players.

I see these as more important pursuits:

- Supporting the local scene; if possible, helping organize or promote local events.

- Attending as many regional or national tournaments as possible.

- Improving skills by becoming proficient with the established deck archetypes.

- Stimulating the format by exploring new synergies and deck concepts.

- Contributing to the online community via articles, essays and tourney reports.



This is the kind of investment people need to make in the format.

Getting the cards is secondary, and can happen over time.


So, having thought this all over a great deal, I find myself in full agreement with Steven Menendian‘s guidelines: unlimited proxies for local events and a limit of 15 for larger tournaments. Of course, sanctioned events would not allow proxies, and T.O.s could always run proxy-free tourneys from time to time if they wished.

[Eddie]

This just came to mind: wouldn't it be possible to link your DCI # with the number of proxie events you've played? With this system, you could allow a player to play in 5 events using proxies. After those 5 events, proxies are prohibited. This would enable new players to have a taste of the format. And if they like it, then they still need to buy the cards if they want to keep playing. You could even decrease the number of available proxies per event.

@Dozer: I'd Quote for truth all of your posts here.

That wouldnt work. Proxy events don't affect your rating, so players could just get fake numbers for all the proxy events they want to play in.

Ok. I thought that the TO did use the DCI reporter software which has your name linked to the DCI #. The DCI reporter uses a simple Access database, which would enable you to include an extra field for this. It was just an idea though.

[Smmenen]

In my "home court" Scholar's there is unlimited proxies.  I pushed for this a few years ago, and it has been great.  Players can play whatever they feel inclined to, and the metagame shifts quite a bit the place for such a small store.  100% proxies can work.  This system is clearly more beneficial for people who do not own power, which is the bulk of the players out there.  It certainly allows people to try vintage for real instead of playing an extended deck with a sol ring.  While that it is good to get people into the game, it is clearly not "fair" to have a system that only benefits those people who do not bother to get the cards to play the format. 

I think the only issue with allowing proxies is the damage it does to card values.  If every vintage tournament everywhere allowed proxies, then vintage only cards values would plummet.  That said, the Europeans seem to stay away from this proxy thing and hopefully with help to keep the price of power where it's at. 

The interesting thing about lower proxy limits is it rewards players who own full power and the core "vintage" cards.  If you own the P9, Drains forces and Duals, you can build just about anything with 5 or 10 proxies.  This means you don't have to get cards like Imperial Seal, Workshops/Bazaars and the many other powerful but metagame dependant cards.  It also allows you to wait and see where card values end up with cards like Grim Tutor.  It allows you to wait for cards like Pithing Needle to rotate out of type 2.  The lower limit proxy certainly can benefit players who both own and do not own power.

I'm glad someone else had the same experience that I did with unlim proxies.  They worked fantastically at my local shop when I was running Columbus Mox Tournaments. 

[Vale_psionic]

Fortunately, Magic is a collectable card games and I think that this collectable aspect is really important for a lot of players. Here in Italy most of us try to pimp their deck using foil or beta/alpha cards, and I think that a "fake" lotus or recall steals a lot of charm to this beautiful scenario. (I don't want to talk about the economical aspect..).
But it's also true that is absolutelty needed the same "starting point" for all the players to have a more balanced and competitive game.
So I think that a really good thing could be a good mix between unlimited proxy tournaments and non proxy/sanctionated tournaments, to meet all players' needs (f.e: 1st and 3rd week of a month ----> non proxy tournament, 2nd and 4th week ----> unlimited/10 proxy tournament).

[Fantaman]

Fortunately, Magic is a collectible card games and I think that this collectible aspect is really important for a lot of players. Here in Italy most of us try to pimp their deck using foil or beta/alpha cards, and I think that a "fake" lotus or recall steals a lot of charm to this beautiful scenario. (I don't want to talk about the economical aspect..).
But it's also true that is absolutelty needed the same "starting point" for all the players to have a more balanced and competitive game.
So I think that a really good thing could be a good mix between unlimited proxy tournaments and non proxy/sanctionated tournaments, to meet all players' needs (f.e: 1st and 3rd week of a month ----> non proxy tournament, 2nd and 4th week ----> unlimited/10 proxy tournament).

Yes in Italy it's very different the scene but I think that it's not easy to organize Proxy's tournaments in Italy. Now it's a biggg moment for VINTAGE in italy  about DCI and COMMERCE and players doesn't want proxies yet. I will try  to organize in my shop 1 month's event and see what happen in the future of Future city!

byez
Fanta

[Whatever Works]

I keep reading the quote that there is NO drawback to more proxies... If your talking strictly about playing the most efficient deck, and the most tuned deck etc. I agree 100%...

However, there are definetly drawbacks to proxies:

1.) Affect Gameplay: Even the nice looking 1's, printouts, CE, Sharpie on plains etc... Have a negative impact on games... I saw the 1's pictured, and even though all the text is present... When your playing against it there is NOT an immediate comprehension of what the card is, and often you have to look back to the same proxy to make sure what type of mox your looking at etc... Also if there are multiples in play its tough to differentiate...

There is under almost no circumstance that playing with proxie of a card is easier on your opponent that playing with the actual card.

2.) Affects Value: This has no impact on gameplay, and if you have alot of money I guess its not the biggest deal. However, when a person like me has full power... And watches all 9 pieces of power drop probably a combined rate of $1500... Just so some kid can ennough proxies to play crappy 5c uba stax over mono red uba stax its easier to get ennoyed...

Prices have dropped, and will continue to drop! Why? Because there is absolutely NO NEED WHATSOVER>>>AT ALL>>>EVER... To invest in power cards...

I see kids spending $400 to get foils for a type 1 deck, instead of getting a piece of power for a type 1 deck??? Wait? dont they need the piece of power to lower the proxy #? Oh, wait nope... They can proxy it easily, and have the rest of the deck foiled...

Magic The Gathering: The COLLECTABLE CARD GAME: I guess the word "Collectable" has been replaced sinse the earlier waterbury tournements that were 5 proxies... Waterbury didnt get bigger when it went to 10 proxies it got bigger when people heard the great community of people that came, and how well run the tournements were...

Proxies also hurt inginuity as well, and sometimes rescourcfulness + being forced to experiment with odd card choices lead to new ideas.

3.) No proxies works fine in Europe (Also note that more people own power here then in Europe from what I have seen)...

Gencon's metagame was extremely competitive and it was no proxy...

Im not asking for no proxies... I am just asking not to have more proxies... 10 is ennough... 5 is better (though I know the # will never go back down to 5 unless store owners who run smaller tournements put there foot down... If beenie exchange went back to 5 proxy I would be shocked if the attendence dropped by more then 10%, but I would be even more shocked if that store owner didnt make more money then he would have made if it was 10-15 proxy...

[zeus-online]

.

[assassin]

In Milwaukee, I have seen a lot of kids coming over to vintage who are proxying out entire stax decks or whatnot to give vintage a shot and in almost every case they started to go out and get the real cards.  The proxies allow  younger or poorer players to get to know their deck before making investments, but i think every magic player has the desire to buy real cards.  It took me a while to get the cash for my set of drains/duals but I wanted them, and although there is proxies i still intend on getting power because real cards are nice. 

I think Vroman's idea would work if they made the top 50 most expensive cards, but made them shitty looking so that no top player would want them in their deck.

[Vale_psionic]

The proxies allow  younger or poorer players to get to know their deck before making investments

I play and improve my decks during playtest sessions. When I play in a tournament I know exactly what to do with my deck. If I understand that a deck doesn't perform well during playtest,I simply don't buy the cards I need and I don't play the deck in a tournament.

[the19inchgecko]

My Commercial idea it's that proxies are a nice help to test new decks in the tournaments and there's a nice chance for scrub's players or unpowered players to try Jewels in their hands, or for Pro players to try new decks with other cards.

I'm a Vintage player and organizer! I've done many tournaments in my "Portfoilio" such as DOOMSDAY ( Over 350  players ) in italy with NO PROXIES.

In Italy players doesn't play with proxies and anyone organize proxies tournaments.

My heart says with my mind that Proxies are NOT MAGIC but probably will be a day that someone start to organize new Events with Proxies. The Only doubt or risk is that people that have Jewels will hate that tournaments...proxy events and you know that is not simple
to understand this idea( I'm the first    )

Is not easy this tread because the difference between U.S. and Italy is that U.S. need proxies because there's no sufficient cards ( probably it's my idea and is a bad idea ) to satisfy the commerce...! We know that Power Nines Jewels cards are not soooo much in the world

In fact now in italy there's no Proxy tournament. That's all!

Byez!

Fantaman

Another reason why these United States of America is subpar

[unknown.root]

welcome to america were everyone thinks that they have the right to do whatever they want without making the sacrifices. if you want a xbox you just beg your parents for one, when you turn 16 someone hands you a car. if you want to play vintage magic you just collect/borrow 65 of the cheapest cards in the deck and proxy the rest. shouldn't the game be about the cards, the REAL cards. sure i know it may not be fair to everyone but life isn't fair. in europe they can draw hundreds of players without proxies and yet over here 5 wasn't enough, now 10 isn't enough, where does it end? 15? 20? what do we do when force of will hits $50 and the proxy count jumps up again? at what point does mana crypt go over $100 and  people can't afford them. if americans keep playing with proxies what will happen to vintage magic? could it will be reduced to a game were you play 50% real cards and 50% fakes? in europe, could one day they play in a format without moxes? sure you guys can all hate me for speaking against proxies, but i believe the game should be about collecting the cards dispite the cost, as much as playing the game.

is a deck so much worse off if it runs 3 moxes instead of 5, or what if not every deck has a black lotus. what if you don't have a full set of workshops can you run a deck off 2 or 3? what is wrong with a return of budget decks? outside of chalice can wreck them.
i know there is green decks out there that can hate powered decks like there is no tomarrow. what would the attendence be if there was no proxies at these starcity events?

[Klep]

is a deck so much worse off if it runs 3 moxes instead of 5, or what if not every deck has a black lotus. what if you don't have a full set of workshops can you run a deck off 2 or 3? what is wrong with a return of budget decks? outside of chalice can wreck them.
i know there is green decks out there that can hate powered decks like there is no tomarrow. what would the attendence be if there was no proxies at these starcity events?

Yes, they would be inferior, no, incoherence in the meta caused by prevalence of janky decks and bad builds of good decks, and negligable.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

A few people have mentioned things like 'playing magic as it was meant to be played' and that collecting cards etc is part of how the game was designed, but I think that this is being taken out of context.  The creaters of magic had no idea what it would be like now... do you think they intended moxes to be worth 300$?  Originally there wasn't even a 4 card limit of multiples in a deck becasuse it was assumed that availability would keep certain cards in check... you would trade cards with your friends but most of your deck would be based around whatever you pulled from boosters... banned and restricted list, 4 card limit, internet forums and reports combined with netdecks, online stores, ebay, etc: none of these things existed at the time or were even envisioned. 

Magic is not the same game as when it was created; it's not even the same game it was a few years ago.  The game itself is constantly evolving; that is what makes it so interesting and fun.  For some people, maybe vintage is about trying to do the best to succeed with whatever cards you have on a budget.  For me vintage is about the cardpool, the WHOLE cardpool, which includes moxes, black lotus, ancestral recall, and timewalk.  You don't have to play with these cards, but most decks should because they are trying to do the best job they can to win with the cards legally available to them.  Having to shell out thousands of dollars for power to make a deck shouldn't be what vintage is about, and that is why I endorse proxies.

[benthetenor]

For me vintage is about the cardpool, the WHOLE cardpool, which includes moxes, black lotus, ancestral recall, and timewalk.  You don't have to play with these cards, but most decks should because they are trying to do the best job they can to win with the cards legaly available to them.

So play with them. Is there any good reason why playing Vintage magic should cost less than playing any other format? 'Cause right now the difference between playing Type II for two or three years vs. playing sanctioned Vintage for the same amount of time is pretty minimal, cost wise. Same for Extended. And as time goes on, Vintage gets cheaper and Standard gets more expensive. I really don't see why players are willing to shell out hundreds of dollars for cards that may very well be worth zilch months or even weeks from now, and yet are terrified of investing a few grand in cards who's value will virtually never peter out. The price may rise or fall with market conditions, but a Black Lotus will never take the same kind of nose dive that Skullclamp did around the time if it's banning. Even if Wizards lost their minds and banned the Lotus, it would still be worth hundreds of dollars to collectors, whereas Skullclamp might as well be toilet paper. Don't like Skullclamp as an example? Take any chase rare from Type II or Extended. Type I has always been in some small way about investment. Just because you don't want it to be about investment anymore won't make it so. You have to pay to play. It is so with every other format, so I'm not sure why it should be different with Vintage.

[[supa_t(im)]]

I don't think comparing other formats to Vintage is a good way to make a point.  Not buying that chase rare in Extended can slow you down a little, but not buying the power in Vintage is a huge disadvantage.  Also, getting the cards for other formats is a lot easier because many cards you can pick up through buying boosters or even trades.  Try buying an unlimited booster for $3.95.  And if you can trade for a mox sapphire, you already had the same calibur of cards.

Saying that you don't want proxies is like saying you want to see the same set of people top8 or top16 at every tournament, because those are the people who have the ability to make the best decks.  Having proxies alleviates some of the elitism that vintage players are so often accused of.

I think the problem is where we draw the line.  Personally, I thought 5 proxy was plenty.  It shouldn't go over 13 proxy, as that allows for just about everydeck to be built.  Also, it would be nice to see some more non-proxy tournaments if the system was the way JOrlove described.  Proxies to get a feel for the format, and more sanctioned stuff to get yourself on the map.

Personally, I don't have power, drains, shops, or zaars.  I play budget decks that are designed to stop those cards.  So far, I've had very good luck using those types of decks.  I will say one thing for no proxies, it forces you to make less play mistakes because you don't have the brokenness to fall back on.

My 2 cents.

[unknown.root]

i think it would be nice to see more decks without the need of power. i'm sure there are builds of decks out there that can stop a fully powered deck in it's tracks.

at the last starcity chicago, some really nice kid played a r/w hate deck which was one of my hardest matches i've played in a long time. he had a mox diamond in there i believe, filling in w/ some ravnica shock lands, and a lot of interesting choices that worked. it was nice to see against all odds he wasn't netdecking and was a lot of fun to play against.

i believe a lack of proxies is the best way for innovation to come back into the format.
just look at the players in europe, and how well things are doing over there.

[Eandori]

I play Vintage because I can't afford Standard.

I should pretty much make that my standard quote.  Sure I spent $300 on my mint mox ruby.  But ya know what?  It's worth more then that now.  How about that Balduvian Horde for $25?  Or that Jesters Cap for $30?  What will the new dual lands be worth when they rotate into Legacy/Vintage?  Type 2 is lots of $ for crap that will go DOWN in value.  Type 1 is LOTS of $ for stuff that holds value or goes up.

Let's face it, $400 in a deck is an INVESTMENT.  I prefer for my financial investments to go UP, not down.

Shouting is unnecessary. -Klep