For Proxies, should SCG allow people to print a slip of paper in sleeve?

[Wikoogle]

Its really quite simple: is our goal to have competitive flexible environments?  If so, we need more proxies.

There is no GOOD  reason not to have more proxies

10 proxies is not enough.  I think 12 would be good and 15 ideal. 

I agree with this IN PRINCIPLE, but only if people were allowed to print something out and put it in the front of the sleeve.  Trying to read people's handwriting and recognizing/reading the board full of 15 plains with shit scribbled on it is at best highly annoying and at worst impossible to keep track of the game state without constantly looking over at a board full of cards that you can't read, because their handwriting is chicken scratch.  Forget about it if it's a card with more than 4 lines of text (and then they've got the oracle text printed out separately off to the side, even more annoying/disruptive).

I cannot stand not picking up the card and seeing the proper picture (how many players recognize cards) and text.  As someone who owns full power, I fully recognize the need of proxies to keep our format alive and have a reasonable barrier to entry (as well as the positive effect that has on the value of my own power), but if 1/4 of someone's deck is a scribbled mess, that's not fun to play against...

We do this (small printed text/graphics in the sleeve) for virtual cards for SW:CCG and have never had a problem with marked cards or cheating..

Bill

Edit - the problem with CE is that while the cards don't look different, they certainly feel different and you can feel the difference shuffling.

Should SCG allow that?

We could even require that the slips be smaller than (or the same size as) the cards and that the slips can't be visible at all, perhaps by gluing them on. We could even require that the slips be printed on standard typing paper and can only be glued onto foil cards whose foil has been peeled off. Whatever it takes. Heck, I would gladly pick up 12 random foils on ebay.

[Dante]

No, glue or tape or anything that would increase the thickness more than a regular slip of paper could lead to cheating.  I'm all in favor of printing out the card image and/or text and slipping that in front of a basic land.

[Kowal]

We already allow different thickness cards in SCG.  Are you telling me that you expect people are going to call judge when you play with a beat beta?

More on topic though, yes, I do think you should be allowed and in fact encouraged to use something that features the art of the card in addition to the text.  We've been doing this in places like Hadley and Waterbury for years and never had any problems with it.

[Tha Gunslinga]

I think people should be, at minimum, forced to use a MARKER (not a pen, people) while proxying, and should have to use the appropriate basic lands for Moxen.  You tell me how I'm supposed to tell what you have open when all your proxies are in pen and on Forests.

[Draven]

I print my proxies out on a 8.5x11 sheet of label sticker (like an address label, but full sheet.) then you cut them out and stick them on a magic card. The thinkness is not different than slipping a piece of printer paper into the sleeve, but the proxies look beautyful and you know what card it is.

I have to agree with everyone though, forest with the word emerald scribbled on it suxors.

Here is my proxy nightmare: Some one played a land with the word "Mishra" written on it in bic ball point pen. I was like, are you kidding me? Mishra what, Factory, Workshop, what? I am sure that it was a workshop, but still people, at least write the full name of the freaking card on it.

[insertnamehere]

I definitely feel that some sort of paper should be inserted into the card like the sticker. I see too many players playing with a card that is written on with marker and you have no idea what the hell it is or does because he has no oracle  text because their was no room to jot down the oracle text.
 

[UR]

If you don't know the Oracle text to a card, just call a judge.

Over here, whenever people are allowed to use proxies you will have to use an off-color basic land and a marker. Before I got a real one, my black lotus was basic mountain edition.

[assassin]

I think the print outs are better.  You need a marker to clearly see the card text, but in one tourney i was missing a jitte and it was very unpleasent to write out a lot of card text AND make it readible

[Imopen2]

i see no problem with having people print off real sized papers proxies of cards.  i do that when i play at dreamers in MN  and no one cares. i think people actually prefer that to seeing a plains with lotus writen on it...i do for sure, i make many more play mistakes when i play someone with written proxies than with printed ones.
i lost a top 8 match because of that same problem 2 months ago because he was playing uba and had like 8 proxies out and i didn't see one was nul rod and lost because of it...
that sucked hard.

[jpmeyer]

Personally, I've noticed a slight difference from having papers in the sleeves when I'm shuffling and once or twice I've noticed a piece of paper that wasnt' glued in start to stick out of the sleeve.

If it's a small tourney, probably ain't no thang, but at something with a big prize like these SCG's, they're really better off playing it safe.

[Draven]

i see no problem with having people print off real sized papers proxies of cards.  i do that when i play at dreamers in MN  and no one cares. i think people actually prefer that to seeing a plains with lotus writen on it...i do for sure, i make many more play mistakes when i play someone with written proxies than with printed ones.
i lost a top 8 match because of that same problem 2 months ago because he was playing uba and had like 8 proxies out and i didn't see one was nul rod and lost because of it...
that sucked hard.

Hey, I play at Dreamers every month too. Can I ask your name? PM me if you want... It is always cool to see the peeps you play with on the 'net.

Keep stuff like this to PM
-Jacob

[Lunar]

I think that as long as players stick to having real card pics on the printouts and as long as it is on normal printer paper (no thick card stock kinda stuff) and no glue or other thickness enhancing goop (lumpy glue jobs are great for marked cards..) is used.

I know a lot of people who just go by pictures much of the time for staple cards and its much easier during pressure filled tournament play to be able to glance at a card to know what it is, rather than having to ask...

Im just beginning to run tournaments, and Im right now adopting SCG's no paper proxy rules...I want to get to know the community better as a TO first, but I think the potential to use slips is okay (in fact as a TO I might in the future print out my own slips for people, that way everybody has the same slips in their decks...)

[nataz]

although I'm not a huge fan of paper proxy, glue would be a mistake. The difference between a glued paper proxy card and a normal card is leagues beyond a beat beta and a new card.

I don't like paper because depending on how you riffle shuffle, the slips can move to the top, and therefor have a chance of being seen just by looking at the side of the deck.

Really, after playing a little with my printer, I really like the idea of printing on peeled foil lands. Easy, they look good, and you can't tell the difference in a sleeve.

[Buttons]

As a tournament organizer,

We judge proxies before we allow the player to play with them.  All players must have proxies brought up with their decklists, and a judge (or me) will decide on whether the set of proxies should be legal.

We've allowed slips of paper that have been glued with very little glue (usually they use a light glue stick, and it's fine).  You really can't tell all that much, especially when the card underneath is from a set mirrodin and newer (as we all know, the cards are thinner).

For other slips of paper, we haven't allowed them, simply because they could slip out, were too thick a piece of paper (seriously), or other easily identifiable methods.

We've never had anyone bring in a proxy printed on a peeled foil.  I imagine it would be allowable, though.

And, we, of course, allow basic lands with oracle text, card name, casting cost, type of spell, etc.  Moxes have to be on basic lands of the type of mana they produce.

The perfect thing would be to allow proxies printed on peeled foils (as you all have been saying it's really good), and disallow all other proxies.  That way we wouldn't have to look at black lotus, mountain edition.

[Klep]

You really can't tell all that much, especially when the card underneath is from a set mirrodin and newer (as we all know, the cards are thinner).

Do we know that indeed?  I just grabbed a random Ravnica card and a random Masques card and compared, and I cannot tell a difference in the card thickness between the two.

[Buttons]

I can tell a small difference.  I've heard tons of people say the same thing.

Between Masques and Saga, there's a small difference as well.

It's not as bad as Beta and Mirrodin, for instance, but throughout the years, the cards get thinner and thinner, and thinner.

[Klep]

I just compared a Legends card to a Ravnica card and again saw no detectable difference.

EDIT: Same with Beta v. Ravnica.

[Buttons]

To me, they not only feel stiffer, as in you can't bend them as easy, but they also feel less smooth.

Mirage cards are perhaps the most infamous when it comes to lack of smoothness.  It's like there are small grits all over the cards, which hold really well inside a sleeve.

Can you also not feel a difference between world championship cards and mirrodin?  World championship cards are even thinner, and more easily bendable.

[xrobx]

As for the card variations and thicknesses per set, it's pretty much useless to discuss.  The average human to greater than average human cannot detect minimal differences in thickness on such low levels.  People, we're talking tenths of a millimeter here.  I don't care how much you think you are a ninja, or have super powers, but no, you cannot tell a difference in thickness on these fine levels.  If you believe you are a ninja/can tell this difference, take this simple test.   Take 5 cards, all from different sets.  Flip them upside down, so you don't know which is which, and mix them up.  Now, without looking at the face of the card, feel the relative thicknesses of the cards and rank them in order of least thick to most thick.  Flip them over, and see if your theories about the new sets being thinner comes true, and how accurately you depicted this.

Now, do this with 60, every time, and without error.  See how this has no significant impact on the game itself?  There is no way you could possibly know which cards are which, by feeling them.  Furthermore, put the cards in sleeves and try this.  And yet still further, you must be able to do this while shuffling, and setting the deck, which must also make it through an opponents cut; hence, your shuffle must align the set cards to draw in  a specific order, and you must use a forced cut to make the opponent give you the set of cards which you desire.

When viewed logically, and in all real instances, this is not feasible.  I'm not saying you cannot feel the difference between a card in a sleeve, and a card in a sleeve with paper on it.  Depending on the thickness of the papper, and even moreso if glue is used, this can lead to slightly thicker/definatly heavier cards.  Again though, this requires great luck and skill when trying to use it to your advantage.

IMHO, paper slips cannot be used as they alter the weight of the card, and as mentioned, the paper may slip out.  What happens then?  You shuffle a lotus to the top, out flies a piece of paper with "lotus roxxors" scribbled on it, and draw a forest (meanwhile playing stax).   Hmm, maybe they should bring back chaos orb again so we can rip it and throw it everywhere.  In fact, we could even fold up an 8x10 paper and shove it in the sleeve, then when we draw it, take out the largely printed 8x10 image of the angry orb, rip it, and scatter all of the playing field. 

[mongrel12]

Isn't there a copyright issue attached to using paper printouts of actual cards? I thought this was the primary reason why SCG doesn't allow printout proxies, aside from the thickness issue.

[nataz]

I just compared a Legends card to a Ravnica card and again saw no detectable difference.

EDIT: Same with Beta v. Ravnica.

I can tell the difference between a lot of allowable but beat power, and new (particularly shiny) cards. This is especialy true when I riffle shuffle, and get to feel the flex of each card as it comes down. It has never been much of an issue for me because I own all unlimited stuff in at least moderate condition, but I have definatly handled other peoples decks that basicaly would be considered marked at a high rel event.

It's not like this has no basis at all. People get DQ'd for having only one type of card foiled in decks with only new cards in them. (Last one that I can remember was extended, guy was playing affinity, and all of the flip dudes were foil. He had borrowed the deck, and wasn't trying to cheat, but still got a game loss. It would have been worse if they thought it was intentional. There is an article by him on SCG detailing the event). Thats even less then the difference between a new card (foil or not) and an old peice of power.    

But that has nothing on the difference that my glued proxys have, which is why I don't play with them.

@ mong,
I think that is the exact reason why they don't do that. If people printed out the actual picture, then you have copyright issues. But that dosen't stop people printing out something like the proxys RnD uses for testing. Clearly defined Name, Type, Rules Text, Power, and no picture. It's easy to read, and no copyright problems.

 

[Buttons]

Yep.  Anyone normal can tell a difference between a new card and a new foiled card.  Same with beta/anything else.

[Special K]

I don't know what you guys are doing wrong but I just compared about 20 cards with a micrometer and only older foils measured noticably thicker newer not so much

[Klep]

My suspicion is that people who believe older cards are actually thicker than newer cards have been comparing relatively beat older cards to newer cards rather than mint cards to mint cards.  Wear and tear could easily cause a bit of fraying at the edge of a card, making it appear thicker than it actually is.

This aside from foils, of course, which actually are a bit thicker because of the extra layer.

[Whatever Works]

Regardless of if there is a small difference between different sets in card thickness, I cast still easily search through a deck without looking at the cards and remove the cards that have a thin sleeve of paper in them.

Sleeves with paper are thicker! End of Story!

Oh... BTW... people who do proxy with these sheets of paper almost always proxy power...

I DO NOT want to play vs. somebody who has there POWER cards all essentially MARKED!

I dont care if somebody says they can do it without effectiving thickness, because for every few people who do there best to be fair... there is always somebody trying to cheat the system.

I cant possibly see how this is even debatable.

Kyle

[MarkPharaoh]

Can you just use the blank World Championship cards?

[matt_v]

Can you just use the blank World Championship cards?

As our rules are currently written? No.

It is something I'm probably going to include in our next update. I just need to make it clear that the rest of the World Championship cards can not be used (not that I'm sure there are any people would want to use).

Slips of paper in sleeves, stickers on cards and the like have almost no chance of getting allowed. If someone wants to peel foils to make them blank and print on them I don't have a huge problem as long as WotC artwork is not used. I am curious as to how these are run through the printer though.

-Matt

[Godder]

What about using cards that either mimic the casting cost and type of a card, or the function? For example, for Ancestral Recall, one could use Abjure or Concentrate. When I proxy stuff for playtesting, that's what I do, and it makes things so much easier to see what it is quickly, without having to read the card 3 times to make it out. Obviously the card still needs to be modified clearly to show what it's meant to be, but a lot less effort is required to use Concentrate as a proxy Ancestral Recall than a Basic Land.

[Jacob Orlove]

Using real cards as proxies leads to all kinds of problems, even if those cards are probably unplayable.

[Matt]

are there cards from other games which are the same size and shape as a Magic card, which could then be used as proxies which can never be confused for real cards?