Discussion: Is Null Rod underplayed in Vintage?

[Smmenen]

Some time ago I did an analysis of the restricted list.  I wanted to evaluate, realistically, the effect of unrestricting any given card.  For example, I predicted that unrestricted Ancestral Recall would have two effects: first the deck that would become dominant would be the deck that could best resolve it.   This would cause people to run Misdirections.  Because Misdirection is both a means of protecting Ancestral as well as stealing them, I predicted that Gro of some sort with 4 Misdirections would become the best deck because it would be the deck best able to find FOW and misdirections to protec the Ancestral chain.  The format would then become a war of Gro variants and that would be it.

But in evaluating the impact of some cards, I realized it became absurd - NOT because a card was too powerful, but because the format would become too unrecognizable.  This only occured with a few cards:

Black Lotus
the five moxen
mana crypt
and sol ring

For that reason, I posited that these cards are "Rule" cards.

Unrestricted any combination of them fundamentally chnages the rules of the format.  Consider: every deck that can plays these cards.  Almost every deck in the format - aside from Fish decks - does. 

What this analysis led me to was the realization of just how powerful Rod was.  I stated this as much in 2004.

Rod is now seeing more play in Uba Stax and still is played in Fish.  But my question is: is Rod still underplayed?

We are seeing Rod show up in Oath.  But maybe its time to question whether Rod should be played in other decks. 

Rod is, in my estimation, one of the most powerful effects in Vintage if only because it is the "anti-rule" card.  If Lotus, etc is a rule of the format, then Rod is the card that impacts nearly every vintage deck. 

This card seriously hurts Slaver and Gifts - pushing them into the Tinker plan. 

The biggest obstacle to incorporating Rod into more decks is the problem of it affecting you. 

But there are two ways to get around this:
1) build more synergistically
2) remember that you don't always have to play Rod.

What cards have great synergy with Rod?
and under what circumstances should you not play Rod?

[Guli]

I totally agree and i am working on a lock deck were null rod is one of my KEY cards. It is not my intention to spam my thread here but maybe you would be interested in this deck idea i have. It is still an idea and in its early stages so i could use some help. Maybe you could push me in the right direction

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=26372.0

To add more on the topic. I think null rod and nether void should work nicely as locki components. And to solve the problem null rod would create for you i think adding green is the answer. Birds of paradise and elvish spirit guides. Another card that has both synergy and disynergy with rod is Kataki, War's Wage. check my idea out.

[mr_rogers]

I think Rod should see more play in Oath and Fish variants than it actually does.  Also any non-slaver/Gifts deck should try to incorperate Null Rod aswell.  I can't see Slaver or Gifts ever being able to use this card to hurt the mirror(though it would be nice). 

[Disburden]

I am surprised that no one has even tried to abuse Null Rod more so than in just Fish variants and now Oath. The card completely shuts down everything that Vintage is about, fast mana. I was testing GRuba Stax for about a week and I realized something about the deck:

It is the most powerful deck in the format.

Why? Well, it shuts down mana better than any other deck I have seen in the game. Null Rod is just as important as Chalice, Smokestack-Crucible. I tried replacing the Rods with SoR when I first tested the deck, and I put Null Rod back in the next day just because every time I had it hit the board, my opponent was screwed unless they had Drain or FoW.

The new Fish deck with Savannah Lions is the best Fish deck to date. The powerful locking of Chalice of the Void with Null Rod is almost impossible to beat without countering on the stack. This deck is probably right behind Uba Stax as far as disrupting your opponent's resources early and then stomping face.

I feel Null Rod is now my favorite card in the format, period, and I wonder if it's even more breakable?

"...and under what circumstances should you not play Rod?"

I think in high aggro meta games , maybe. I see a lot of random aggro where I play and Rod sometimes does nothing for them, some of the decks don't even run sol ring. But I still play Null Rod because Aether Vial does nothing under it, so I haven't been complaining.

[bebe]

The new Fish deck with Savannah Lions is the best Fish deck to date. The powerful locking of Chalice of the Void with Null Rod is almost impossible to beat without countering on the stack. This deck is probably right behind Uba Stax as far as disrupting your opponent's resources early and then stomping face.

This is rather a bold statement. The Canadian Fish decks have outperformed it to date ( not that I dislike deck, i think it rather good overall ).
Why are we discussing the merits of Null Rod?  We have established that Rod is a great card in Vintage. Fish, Oath, Bird Shit, Lions and GrUba Stax have all used it as a control mechanism.

Is it underplayed? Well it is included in most decks that can support it. The question is really what decks are best suited to use its nullifying power and what cards enhance its effectiveness.

[Whatever Works]

Null Rod is a tough call and really a metagame decision. You said that null rod forces players into the tinker plan, but then when consider the tinker plan... Its not that bad of a plan...

I would love to see people try to create a deck with null rod, suppression field, root maze, etc... I feel that the card is way way overused in most stax builds now... What good control deck isnt running alot of basics and rebuild? However, that being said that doesnt mean that I am happy whenever I see my opponent drop a null rod.

Kyle

[The Chosen One]

Is it underplayed? Well it is included in most decks that can support it. The question is really what decks are best suited to use its nullifying power and what cards enhance its effectiveness.

It is obvious that the decks that work best with null rod are those that can own the board and control the game without any of the "rule" cards in play on it's own side(or in the deck for that matter). I play U/r Fish and I use no power at all in it. It has enough tempo and disruption to maintain board position until it can lock out the "rule" cards with say rod/mox monkey. I personally (having played both ends) that rod fish is just better in certain ways than chalive/vial/jitte fish. For one, my null rod stops at least 6 cards in that deck. And unless you go first, chalice does not stop the moxen your opponent laid out on the play.

[jcb193]

I think one of the things being missed, is not only does it "lock out 6 of their cards", it also throughly messes with their mana base because now that you have locked out 6 of their cards, they also now have a much lower % of mana.  The problem is that with it's 2 casting cost, you yourself have to play moxen.

This card defeats one of the premises of Vintage.  People used to shy away from "answer/defensive cards," but this may be one that has to take more prominence.   

[PipOC]

The problem is that with it's 2 casting cost, you yourself have to play moxen.

Ancient Tomb and Workshop are both extremely efficient ways of popping out a null rod without a mox of the table.  And even when you play moxen

remember that you don't always have to play Rod.

[Moxlotus]

One of the things about playing null rod is that you don't get to play with cool artifacts yourself.  For fish to play it, it can't use Vials.  For Oath to play it, it can't use Top or postboard Trike against Slaver (assuming you leave in Rods against slaver). 

It is a matter slowing down opponent's game plan vs. accelerating your own.  Sometimes its obvious like Stax where your gameplan IS slowing them down.  Other times, like in Oath, it isn't.

[miss_bun]

Its been my experience that people (or at least a lot of the people I know) play null rod TOO much, if anything.  Of course, maybe I'm exactly the kind of person the original poster was referring to...

While null rod is good, I think the reason some people overplay it is the same reason other people underplay it.  Its sort of a reverse peer pressure kinda thing: if a lot of people play it when it doesnt really work, you have a tendency to NOT play it even when it could help.  And vice versa.  I do that all the time.

Smmenen had a lot of good points though, I'll just leave it at that.   

[gulfsquid]

Hey guys I'm new to the forums...

As good as Null Rod is in the format I find it to be only average against what I consider the "best deck" in Uba Stax.  I was thinking that if that was combined in one of the u/b fish decks with planar void...that would really take the Welder decks out of the game completely, and as an added bonus you could probably make Oath deck itself a bunch of the time cause their Gaea's Blessing would be pretty useless removed from the game.  I don't really have a decklist for this sort of thing but any thoughts?

[Vegeta2711]

It sees plenty of play for what it is.

[Disburden]

The new Fish deck with Savannah Lions is the best Fish deck to date. The powerful locking of Chalice of the Void with Null Rod is almost impossible to beat without countering on the stack. This deck is probably right behind Uba Stax as far as disrupting your opponent's resources early and then stomping face.

This is rather a bold statement. The Canadian Fish decks have outperformed it to date ( not that I dislike deck, i think it rather good overall ).

I was just stating that with Null Rod and Chalice combined into the maindeck, that this Fish list seems to have more disruptive power and screws over a lot more decks than the usual Fish list. I love the Canadian lists, I wasn't trying to say anything against them in my post.

[Grand Inquisitor]

It's not that null rod is a bad card, but it certainly isn't underplayed.  Beyond this, the line of argument you take in recommending its greater use is suspect.

I think Null Rod is appropriately played for a few reasons:

1) It suffers from self-selection

miss_bun

2) It attacks cards which usually render their effect before null rod comes into play

3) On the draw it falls prey to mana drain using conventional mana sources

4) While you can build with synergy, you can't duplicate the powerful plays a fully powered (now usually 10 accelerators) can make

5) Decks in T1 continue to become flexible enough to have broken openings, strong mid-late games, and navigate hate cards

I think recent stax (actually juggernautgo's early beatz lists) lists have optimized this card

[Smmenen]

I am surprised that no one has even tried to abuse Null Rod more so than in just Fish variants and now Oath. The card completely shuts down everything that Vintage is about, fast mana. I was testing GRuba Stax for about a week and I realized something about the deck:

It is the most powerful deck in the format.

Why? Well, it shuts down mana better than any other deck I have seen in the game. Null Rod is just as important as Chalice, Smokestack-Crucible. I tried replacing the Rods with SoR when I first tested the deck, and I put Null Rod back in the next day just because every time I had it hit the board, my opponent was screwed unless they had Drain or FoW.

The new Fish deck with Savannah Lions is the best Fish deck to date. The powerful locking of Chalice of the Void with Null Rod is almost impossible to beat without countering on the stack. This deck is probably right behind Uba Stax as far as disrupting your opponent's resources early and then stomping face.

I feel Null Rod is now my favorite card in the format, period, and I wonder if it's even more breakable?

This is what prompted this thread.

I look at the card and I realize that it is broken, but I think it is underused because we have not sufficiently theorized how to make it less symetrical while still playing with power. 

I think Mishra's Workshop is a big part of that answer, but there are more.  Oath of Druids as a two card win that costs two mana that does not require moxen is another. 

[sean1i0]

This is what prompted this thread.

I look at the card and I realize that it is broken, but I think it is underused because we have not sufficiently theorized how to make it less symetrical while still playing with power.

I think Mishra's Workshop is a big part of that answer, but there are more. Oath of Druids as a two card win that costs two mana that does not require moxen is another.

For quite sometime I've considered the pillars of vintage to be mana drain, mishra's workshop, bazaar of baghdad, and dark ritual.  Recently, however, someone, and honestly, I don't remember who, stated that the pillars of the format were those 4 plus oath of druids.  I thought about that for sometime and I believe that is the case.  Out of those 5 cards, the only ones that really seem like they could use null rod and not be hurt by it are bazaar of baghdad, oath of druids, and mishra's workshop. 

If you're playing a mana drain deck, then you probably really want a lot of mana fast.  Same thing with a dark ritual based deck.  It so happens, not by coincidence, that those are the two cards that help make most of the combo decks in the format.  Obviously, Bazaar of Baghdad doesn't give a shit if null rod is out or not, but it is still not always capable of co-existing with null rod, since the rest of the deck may very well care (for example:  leviat.dec).  As Smmenen has pointed out, Oath of Druids only costs 1G, so null rod shouldn't really be a problem as far as it's concerned.  Finally, Mishra's Workshop provides enough mana by itself to effectively counter the effects of null rod if a deck is properly constructed (as we have seen with ubastax and juggernautgo's waterbury winning deck).  And then there are the anti-pillar decks such as fish.  Obviously those can use null rod as part of their anti-strategy if the deck is constructed correctly.

Anyway, my point in writing all of this is to propose the idea that maybe null rod cannot be optimally used in anymore archetypes than it is now, but rather the future of this (awesome) card lies in further optimized builds of the decks it's already in.

[Khahan]

The problem with Null Rod?  Its all dependent on your opponents deck.  For as powerful of an effect it can have on the game,with so many decks like Oath and Fish, it can just as easily be a dead card.

I mainly play Oath (though I've been working on a new 2 card instant win) and Null Rod fits very nicely into my build. However, the deck that has always given me the most fits is U/W Fish. And guess what...Null Rod is just another dead card against that.

As for U/W Fish, Null Rod doesn't hurt it.

Goblins (maybe not the most powerful, but certainly a common/prevalent archtype), Null Rod does not hurt it.

UbaStax, null rod does not really hurt it.

Right there are 4 VERY common decks. In any given tournament, from Waterbury/SCG down to the 20 man scrub tourny's, you WILL see each of those decks.

What decks are left that Null Rod shuts down: TPS, Gifts and other combo that needs loads of fast mana each turn.  Honestly, I think this discussion was more relevant a year ago.

Maybe come summer it will be relevant again.

Its underused because it is dependent on your opponent's deck and currently there are too many commonly seen decks that it does not shut down. Why take up 2-4 slots main deck with it?  I'll gladly put it in my sideboard, though.

[Eandori]

I think anyone would be crazy to deny that Null Rod is powerfull in Vintage.  But it's not a show stopper.  I'm an avid Gifts-Slaver player and I actually don't fear the rod as much as many might think.  My experience running against decks with rod is simple.  I can work around it.

[PipOC]

I think anyone would be crazy to deny that Null Rod is powerfull in Vintage.  But it's not a show stopper.  I'm an avid Gifts-Slaver player and I actually don't fear the rod as much as many might think.  My experience running against decks with rod is simple.  I can work around it.

I can't imagine that your build would be a representative sample of the metagame, IIRC you maindeck 1 or 2 disenchant. Most other gifts and slaver builds(excluding MDG) don't run nearly as many outs as yours for null rod.  I think you're seriously underrating against the established metagame.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

Oath of Druids as a two card win that costs two mana that does not require moxen is another.

We're assuming that this game doesn't go long? Resolving Null Rod in a deck such as Oath could be catastrophic if Plan A goes South. Null Rod offers little insurance that things will be that much better for the Oath player.

As good as Null Rod is, it really only belongs not only in certain metas but also certain spots for certain decks. Something Fish/ aggro related will want it main. Stax as well. Oath? Naw. Maybe sideboard at the very least... Mainboard is a major naw. What does Oath have a problem with that Null Rod answers? It really isn't that effecient at making things "that much better".

People may think Null Rod is underplayed, but that's because people think Fish is underplayed. Budget aggro in general, actually. I'd love to see an upward flux of Fish and R/G Beats (God rest it's soul), but it just ain't gonna happen... It will be as it always is. Fish will rise up once more with a different build, then will fall to the sidelines as the "meta standards" will grow to crush it, and then will rise up again. Rinse and repeat... Welcome to the life of a Fish player in an anti-Fish world.

[Eandori]

I can't imagine that your build would be a representative sample of the metagame, IIRC you maindeck 1 or 2 disenchant. Most other gifts and slaver builds(excluding MDG) don't run nearly as many outs as yours for null rod.  I think you're seriously underrating against the established metagame.

That's not what my deck has.  Yes my deck is pretty representative of Slaver with the exception that I have realized how much Crucible of Worlds and Gifts Ungiven does for that deck.  BTW, I made top 8 at a recent power tournament here in the Northwest.  Here it is.

Gifts Slaver

spells 35
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Goblin Welder
2 Mindslaver
1 Pentavus
1 Platinum Angel
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Cunning Wish
2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction
 
mana 25
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Strip Mine

sideboard
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Burnout
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Disenchant
1 Stifle
1 Gifts Ungiven
3 Wasteland
1 Triskelion
1 Gorilla Shaman

Not to get TOO much off topic...  Yeah Null Rod is good, but it's not game ending.  I don't think I would play a deck in Type 1 that was not able to deal with a 2 colorless mana artifact hitting the board.  Even Crucible/Wasteland doesn't shut me down anymore.

[Smmenen]

I think anyone would be crazy to deny that Null Rod is powerfull in Vintage.  But it's not a show stopper.  I'm an avid Gifts-Slaver player and I actually don't fear the rod as much as many might think.  My experience running against decks with rod is simple.  I can work around it.

Anyone can work around any card in a vaccuum.  What I'm saying is that people have not sufficiently thought about how to follow it up.

Let me ask this question to direct the flow of conversation:

Assume you can go

Turn One:
Mox, Land, Null Rod

Turn Two:
What are the best, and realistic, turn two plays that can make the most of your turn one Null Rod?

I'll start off with the most obvious ones so that we don't have to hear them repeated:

Workshop, Smokestack is pretty good
Forbidden Orchard, Oath is solid

But I want to stimulate deeper thinking on the matter.  What else can be done?  Think about how a game might unfold. 

[Whatever Works]

Null Rod is only good vs. Non-Null Rod decks in most cases... When about 1/3rd of the metagame runs null rod that means that if you run null rod... you will have 2-4 dead cards in your deck vs. those matchups...

Also Null rod wouldnt be that great if people learned to played just a little bit of artifact maindeck... just 1 oxidize or rack and ruin (similar to rich shays slaver list), and the null rod issue (though it would still exist) would not be as prevalent.

[The Chosen One]

Anyone can work around any card in a vaccuum. What I'm saying is that people have not sufficiently thought about how to follow it up.

Let me ask this question to direct the flow of conversation:

Assume you can go

Turn One:
Mox, Land, Null Rod

Turn Two:
What are the best, and realistic, turn two plays that can make the most of your turn one Null Rod?

I'll start off with the most obvious ones so that we don't have to hear them repeated:

Workshop, Smokestack is pretty good
Forbidden Orchard, Oath is solid

But I want to stimulate deeper thinking on the matter. What else can be done? Think about how a game might unfold.

Supression field is an excellent follow up to null rod. Cutting of your opponents ability to play early fetchlands or waselanding your non basics. Has supression field made it into any vintage decks that are competitive? I have yet to see it in a decklist... I had the crazy idea of building a mono white deck with rod and supression field but I have not worked out a solid frame for the deck yet

[xrobx]

Assume you can go

Turn One:
Mox, Land, Null Rod

Turn Two:
What are the best, and realistic, turn two plays that can make the most of your turn one Null Rod?

I'll start off with the most obvious ones so that we don't have to hear them repeated:

Workshop, Smokestack is pretty good
Forbidden Orchard, Oath is solid

Sure this is one way of looking at it, but at the same time, if you could follow with orchard, wouldn't this be better?

Turn 1: Mox, orchard, Oath

You'd simply win THAT much faster. 

Yes rod is good, and I understand you're trying to get discussion flowing on synergistic plays with rod.

However, I don't see rod as a staple in type one.  It's good against decks that cannot play around it.  For instance, combo.  Combo has answers likely, but this puts a serious dampening on their overall grand scheme.  The real problem is Chalice.  Chalice is the best proactive disruption the game has to offer, simply based on the number of cards affected by one card.

In comparison to other proactive disruption...

Chalice - can be cast for 0 (negates moxen if dropped early), c@1 stops a good portion of every deck in the format, c@2 stops answers and most any control based deck (involving blue), TRADES 1 card for MORE THAN 1 card at ALL times

Rod - hurts activated abilities of artifacts only

Suppression field - slows all activated abilities

Duress - one for one tradeoff, sometimes resulting in a 2-1 (fow pitch)

Thus, alot of rods power relies on chalice, or some kind of accelerant to justify playing the rod in the first place.

I understand that rod stops moxen better than chalice after turn one, but we're discussing optimal plays, plus chalice is much more versatile mid-late game

Thus, running chalice alongside rod is great, and why I've run it in my fish build for the last little while.  I played at rochester and went 5-2 with my nUBfish.  Unfortunatly, due to some late night crazy thinking which usually comes before big tournies, I took rod out of my sb expecting there to be more fish than originally predicted.  There was.  However, the 1 game that cost me making top 8 was decided on game 3 of a silly mistake on my part.

I was playing against worker/shop/staff thing, and I kept a hand consisting of a lotus, energy flux, a land, and a few 2 cc critters that fuck things up.  I went land, lotus, flux, thinking I had won the game.  He followed up with MWS, metalworker. From that point forward, I've deemed energy flux a piece of shit.  Sure it's good in some cases, but its so easy to play around, especially given the situation.  Damn you metalworker.

[BreathWeapon]

I apologize for the brief post, but could Null Rod replace the presence of 4xTrinisphere in Workshop Aggro? If Lion.dec could abuse them, then Juggernaut's should be able to do it better.

[BruiZar]

I've realized the potential of null rod for years now but i lack the deckbuildingskills to truly make it work like it should. My build used mycosynth lattice which instantly locks the game. The problem with it is that lattice is a dead card otherwise, so i have to find a substitute for lattice which actually does something while still locking the game up in combination with rod. I've tried myr enforcers and transmutes to get the combo down quickly and it worked reasonably but i still think its not good enough

[nataz]

What are the best, and realistic, turn two plays that can make the most of your turn one Null Rod?

Turn One:
Mox, b-ring, Null Rod
Turn Two:
bazaar, welder

Turn One:
Mox, Land, Null Rod
Turn Two:
waste, SOR

Turn One:
Mox, Land, Null Rod
Turn Two:
Land, Chalice @1

or

(Daze, FOW+Blue Card in hand)

Turn One:
Mox, Land, Null Rod
Turn Two:
Waste

Turn One:
Mox, Land, Null Rod
Turn Two:
ManLand, cloud, Standstill

Turn One:
Mox, Land, Null Rod
Turn Two:
Land, Chains of Meph

Turn One:
Mox, Land, Null Rod
Turn Two:
Land, Flying Men, Cabal therp, Flashback Cabal therp

[cophos]

@nataz:
I don't really like most of your examples, because they (despite of certainly being nice plays) do not have specific synergy with the turn one Rod.
(1. Turn Rod, 2. Turn ripping my opponents hand apart with Therapy ... whatever ... )

On the one hand Rod slows the game down drastically, on the other hand it also has a nice late game effect, which Chalice e.g can't provide. (Oh BTW it shuts down whole archetypes and mechanics ... )
As a logical conclusion (especially referring to the first statement) a good way to maximize the effect of Rod is to put your opponent under big pressure. (1. Turn Trini is good, but a Juggernaut 2. turn makes it brutal. Slowing the game down while having a fast clock's always dangerous.)
So whats the best way to achieve this goal? Big artifact guys with the help of Shop? Not this time, IMO. Beating your opponents face with 6/X hasty fatties seemes slightly better. (Similar to dropping a Chalice @0 and drop the Oath.) It's not a really innovative use of Rod, but the way to go I think. (If it's even necessary while playing Chalices anyway.)
(The problem however is that Rod's in no way comparable to Trinisphere et cetera. It's not a tempo card in every matchup unlike other cards. Very often it's "just another bomb" against the "heavy" control decks. (And combo obviously.) So it would fit better into a stax-esque deck ... )