The Essence of Control Slaver: The Core

[NULLROD]

CS has recently become a topic of huge debate. As a result, I would like to start a discussion that includes the CORE of what a CS deck consists of. A core is defined as a set of common cards that are absolutely imperative to the essence of what defines CS. Other than the mana base, which may be off by 1-2 cards depending on the build, every card in the spells category is imperative.

spells
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Goblin Welder
1 Mindslaver
1 Demonic Tutor
 
mana 25
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Island

This leaves 11 other cards that must be included. The mana base is roughly fixed, without taking into account the possibility of the COW/STRIP lock, the exact number of 25 mana sources is almost certainly correct. This leaves the possibility of other choices:

2-3 artifact fatties, which may include:
Pentavus
Platinum Angel
Triskelion
Sundering Titan
Darksteel Colossus
Mindslaver #2


8-9 Metagame cards which have shown up in CS decks in the past. These may include:
Gorilla Shaman
Burning Wish
Fire/Ice
Vampiric Tutor
Imperial Seal
Recoup
Darkblast
Tormod's Crypt
Echoing Truth
Lotus Petal
Rack and Ruin
Mystical Tutor
Fact or Fiction
Intuition
Crucible of Worlds (at most 1)
Deep Analysis
Accumulated Knowledge
Gifts Ungiven
Mana Leak
Cunning Wish
Duress
Aether Spellbomb
Pyrite Spellbomb
Echoing Ruin
Shattering Pulse

Obviously, the SB is completely up to the metagame, and this warrants another discussion that is perhaps even more complex than this one. Just some thoughts about this wonderful deck, that may possibly the best magic deck created of all time.

[pyr0ma5ta]

You forgot:
Mystical Tutor should be main (I haven't seen any CS lists that don't play it)
Burning Wish (Tendrils plan)
Vamp Tutor
Imp Seal
Fire/Ice

Also, you have DT listed in the main and in the metagame slots.

Edit: Some CS lists have been playing 3 welders recently.

[NULLROD]

True. I forgot burning wish, and I edited the other mistakes before you replied. Rich Shay does not play with mystical. Many other leading CS players today do not play mystical either. Mystical is not necessary for the essence of CS. In today's stax-heavy meta, and fight for board control, anything less than 4 welders is sub-optimal, considering the number of artifact fatties that cannot be otherwise cast unless via tinker.

[MoxMonkey]

I have been running 3 Welders and unless I was in Chicago I don't think I would run 4.  From my testing Mana Draining something Beats Stax much better than Goblin Welder.  Also 1-2 MoxMonkeys can take care of the missing Welder spot probably better than the 4th Welder could.

A Second tutor is in the Core cards but what tutor depends on the metagame.

I think an Echoing truth Mainboard is part of the Slaver core since you want at least 1 random out just in Case Null Rod hits play or a mainboard choke resolves.

[The Atog Lord]

Some thoughts on the Core of Control Slaver

    3-4 Goblin Welder
I have seen some people cutting down on him, but I don't see myself going below four anytime soon. He is amazing against Stax (one of the reasons to play CS over, say, SSB in the first place). He is a must-counter against true control decks, and he lets the deck abuse Thirst in obscene ways. Sure, against decks like RG beats or RDW he isn't wonderful, and at times he can even be a dead draw. Still, even against a Gifts deck, he is a good way to not lose to a random Tinker into DSC. So, in general, this guy does more than any one drop should.

    4 Force of Will
    4 Mana Drain
These don't really need justification.


    4 Brainstorm
    1 Ancestral Recall
    4 Thirst for Knowledge
These are the core draw elements of the deck. I can't imagine a good reason to cut down on any of them.

    1 Mindslaver
    1 Mindslaver or Gifts or Entomb etc
Mindslaver is  good. I would include 2 Mindslaver in the core, but in reality I can see going to a single copy of the card if you also have a card to Entomb it, such as Gifts Ungiven. But either way, the deck needs two Mindslaver or Psuedo-Mindslavers.
   
    1 Time Walk
    1 Tinker
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
Derf.

That's what I consider the core of the deck to be. Not running any of them requires some justification. In addition, the deck should have a few large artifact monsters, such as Pentavus, Plats, Trike, Colossus, and the like. I didn't include any of them in the core because depending on the metagame they can be changed around without actually  doing much to change the deck. In other words, having a few other giant robots can be considered  part of the core, but which they are is left open.

Vamp, Mystical, ETruth, Shaman, and anything else like that might be run, but by are no means essential to the deck, and may be swapped in and out without doing much to harm the flow of the deck.

[NULLROD]

Good post, Rich. I totally agree with you on the welders. Also, you didn't address your opinion of the mana count. What do you think of it? 25 sources? 26 sources? Pentavus vs COW/strip lock? What do you prefer? Also, why does the deck NEED 2 mindslavers? Isn't an artifact fattie instead of the second one enough?

[dicemanx]

Regarding Welder:

I have seen some people cutting down on him, but I don't see myself going below four anytime soon. He is amazing against Stax (one of the reasons to play CS over, say, SSB in the first place). He is a must-counter against true control decks, and he lets the deck abuse Thirst in obscene ways.

Curiously enough, the 1st and 3rd place CS builds piloted by Ugo and Demars' at the last SCG event in Rochester had only 3 Welders. Now I understand that the metagame in that part of the US is typically Stax light (or so they tell me), but given your statement that Welder is a "must counter" for "true control" it seems that the decision to play only 3 Welders was suspect.

I'm not so sure that Welders are so absolutely critical in the control match-ups. One reason is the increased use of Pithing Needle, which could eventually force CS into running 1-2 Shamans to complement 4 Welders. This in itself isn't a bad idea, except that Shaman isn't always stellar and can clog up your draws against another popular archetype: Oath. Another reason is that the opposing control deck can choose to let the Welders go and just fight against the Thirsts. If CS suceeds in resolving a Welder and punching through a TfK WITH a relevant artifact in hand (or in the top 3 cards of the library) with counter back up, then OK, they win.


Just out of curiosity, would a solitary Bazaar ever be a consideration (or perhaps Cephalid Colisseum even)? This makes Welder a much more serious threat against Gifts and the mirror. It can be played as a one-of, along with the tutoring power of Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, and possibly even Imperial Seal to fetch it if need be.

[NULLROD]

Absolutely not. All of CS's lands had better be producing mana, if not blue mana. No turns can be wasted that will delay the crucial UU CS needs to drain. The waste of a land drop for a card that would otherwise provide an inferior discard ability with the advantage of being uncounterable is not worth the slot it would replace. Rack and ruin, echoing truth, mox monkey, etc are there to remove the pesky shits that clog up CS's game plan if it becomes necessary. CS doesn't need anymore solutions that are available to it. It simply needs a well-defined CORE on which a deck can be built on top of. The SB and remaining 11 cards can be appropriately meta'ed.

[Lou]

I was toying with the idea of Bazaar as well, but the problem always comes back to wanting two blue on your second turn, and dropping a Bazaar doesn't help with this at all.  I think it could work in a more comboish build of Slaver, however.  That is also a reason why Library is not a staple of the deck, and I feel that Darksteel Citadel is also a bad call.

Just to add, 4 Welders are definately not core to the deck anymore.  As was stated, just look at the top finishes with the deck lately.

[dicemanx]

Absolutely not. All of CS's lands had better be producing mana, if not blue mana. No turns can be wasted that will delay the crucial UU CS needs to drain.

Careful.

The Bazaar doesn't compete with a land drop. You would still play 25 mana sources - the idea is to use Bazaar/Colisseum only if necessary, but you wouldn't play it early if you need to establish Drain Mana by turn 2. The question is IF it is necessary - many CS players might feel the answer is no, but like I said if an opposing control deck can cut CS from TfK it makes Welder far less threatening. This is one reason why Gifts has a stronger game than CS on average - the number of relevant cards is diminished in Slaver if they would otherwise be shoooting blanks with Welders. You won't always succeed in resolving a Thirst with an artifact to discard, and even if you do chances are you are ahead of the other control deck anyways.

[pyr0ma5ta]

Bazaar: seems awful.  UU is way too important.  In fact, I don't even play Library because of this reason.

Darksteel Citadel is good because it's a dependable weld-out target.  The last thing you want is to be all set up for a big Slave turn against a Shaman with mana up and all you've got to weld out is moxes.

Coliseum: interesting!  Never thought of that.

[MoxMonkey]

Bazaar is fine but you need 1-2 Crucible of worlds to help Support it and have the ability to discard for it.

Colosseum would be awful since you need threshold to use the Draw 3 discard 3.

[Hi-Val]

People approach Bazaar the wrong way. They see it as a land and not a spell. Bazaar doesn't produce mana. If you want to play it in your deck, don't put it in mana slots, put it in spell slots. Bam, you still get your UU on turn 2!

Also, what's the opinion on FOF? I find it to be craaaaazy but I can see how it makes the deck topheavy.

[MoxMonkey]

FoF has Never Left my List.

Bazaar isn't Mana but thinking you can throw it into any slaver list without some way to abuse it means it will likely disappoint you time and time again.  I have trouble pitching 2 cards to thirst but 3 to bazaar would just be crazy.  I might try it out and see what happens, but from my testing with frantic Search and other randoms I don't see it being that great.  Time can only tell.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

My thinking has always been to play the necessary mana accelerators and to play as many basics as possible. CS already has a terrbile manabase of like 6 duals + 3-4 islands. To clog the shit up with useless cards like LoA and Darksteel Citadel is folly. I'd much rather hit UU and ride drain than to draw 1 extra card a turn or to have a land that can be welded. I can see LoA being playable in extreme metagames that are basically ALL control. But once you throw in decks like fish, oath, and stax, LoA seems unnecessary to your game plan of activating mindslaver. My opinion of citadel has always been that it's crap. When I played the deck at GenCon, I played 3 games where the opponent resolved a turn 1/2 shaman. I won all the games. When Lou and I tested CS with citadel, I lost plenty of games because I drew Citadel instead of a fetchland. Plus, I'd see too many hands that were like: island, citadel, drain, force, BS, welder, thirst and be forced to mull.

As far as the welder debate goes, I tend to lean towards 4 welders because they are simply amazing. They wreck stax, and make your thirsts pretty much must counters. On top of that, they beat for 1. The Gifts/CS matchup is very tricky, and unless one of the decks goes extremely broken early on, the game will last well into the late game. I've died plenty of times to 2-3 welders beating down while I'm holding X counters and no gas. Postboard, welder beats is a realistic option if you slow the opponent down with X REBs, X Crypts, and 2 shamans.

As for the creature debate, it's pretty much in the air. However, I won't run CS without pentavus. The card is freakin' nutz vs. stax and random shit you're bound to see (fish, etc.). Plus, with Gifts in the deck, it allows for stupid EOT-Gifts-for-pents-and-slaver-with-active-welder hard locks.

Bazaar might be an interesting idea, but it's still card disadvantage. While welder is certainly an important part of CS's gameplan, the deck is still a tinker/will deck.

-Bob

[dicemanx]

Bazaar might be an interesting idea, but it's still card disadvantage. While welder is certainly an important part of CS's gameplan, the deck is still a tinker/will deck.

While its certainly true that CS can beat you in many different ways and doesn't rely on any one particular strategy, you will always be fighting from behind in control matches if your opponent manages to cut you off from one specific strategy - the Welder plan. Since the deck typically invests 7 slots to this plan (4 Welders, 1 Mindslaver, and two big cc artifacts), there is an increased likelihood that you will be drawing duds while your control opponent draws more relevant cards. That was the motivation behind suggesting Bazaar/Colisseum - once you resolve a Welder it puts so much extra pressure on your opponent because every tutor could spell the end via an uncounterable play of Bazaar into Mindslaver. 

[Lou]

While its certainly true that CS can beat you in many different ways and doesn't rely on any one particular strategy, you will always be fighting from behind in control matches if your opponent manages to cut you off from one specific strategy - the Welder plan. Since the deck typically invests 7 slots to this plan (4 Welders, 1 Mindslaver, and two big cc artifacts), there is an increased likelihood that you will be drawing duds while your control opponent draws more relevant cards. That was the motivation behind suggesting Bazaar/Coliseum - once you resolve a Welder it puts so much extra pressure on your opponent because every tutor could spell the end via an uncounterable play of Bazaar into Mindslaver. 

I think this is why having Burning Wish might be a better alternative, since if the Welder is shut off, then adding Bazaar doesn't really help any.

I think Bazaar is better suited towards the goal of getting a Mindslaver into the yard with an active Welder, and not worrying about many control aspects.

[The Atog Lord]

Oops, I guess I wasn't clear enough. When I talked about a control deck, I wasn't talking about Gifts or Slaver or, really, anything that's seeing much play in the metagame. There aren't many actual draw-go decks in existence right now, but those are the decks against which Welder is amazing. Sorry for any confusion there.

As for Welder in the Mirror Match. The most important thing you can do in the mirror is to go off unopposed. Second best is having Library. Not "essential," but I can't imagine cutting it. Finally, we get down to having an unopposed Welder. Welder is good in the CS mirror, but Tinkering into a Slaver, or getting Library online, are both much more important.

As for the number of Welders. As I said, I use four of them, though I'm not convinced that playing all four is an "essential" part of the deck. Running below three would seem to really diminish the value of the Thirsts, and I would at that point question whether playing SSB instead would be a good idea. Three seems a fine number, and were Stax not seeing a decent bit of play, might even be advisable. By no means would I call three Welders incorrect at this point.

As for Fact or Fiction. I love it and play it. However, I don't really think of it as being an essential part of the deck, and could see having a good Slaver list without it. Not essential, but something I really like. Even so, it gets boarded out against Combo and Fish. In the mirror, though, it is quite good.

One thing I would like to mention is that against  both control and control combo decks like Gifts and Slaver, Mindslaver is not a dead card. I can't tell you  how often games have been decided by something as clumsy as a resolved Mindslaver with six mana open. Compare Mindslaver to Yawgmoth's Bargain -- both cost six, and both pretty much end the game if you have mana open. Yes, you don't have Ritual to fuel Bargain -- but you do have mana drain.

To expand further on this, I'll echo something Brassman has said. Control Slaver abuses Tinker more than any other deck in the format. And the ability to grab a Mindslaver is an essential part of this strength. Mindslaver often ends the game much better than Colossus could ever hope to do. And if you have mana open, it laughs at removal.

Finally, for some insight into using Welder and Bazaar, check out Eastman's really cool creation, Cerebral Assassin. Man, that thing was a nightmare to play against -- once a Welder hit, nothing could really stop the deck from bringing back a Large Robot. I wonder what happened to Eastman...

Anyways, I like where you're going with that idea Diceman. Bazaar or Colleseum would turn an uncountered Welder into a win condition without needing resolve additional spells. I'll be thinking about it.

[LotusHead]

Some thoughts on the Core of Control Slaver

    3-4 Goblin Welder
    4 Force of Will
    4 Mana Drain
    4 Brainstorm
    1 Ancestral Recall
    4 Thirst for Knowledge
    1 Mindslaver 
    1 Time Walk
    1 Tinker
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Yawgmoth's Will

Plus mana base of

mana 25
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Island

Leaving 10-11 cards for personal taste/strategy.


Nice.  Are there any other Vintage decks that can be broken down to this kind of "core"?  There was a TPS core list, at one point, but that was almost a full year agon (before Gifts hit the scene). For example, there are 31 flavors of Fish nowaday, but UbaStax has kind of a "core".

Could be useful to deckbuilders out there. Nice thread topic.

[Pyromaniac]

Obviously there are a number of decks that can get this treatment. Think of Storm combo outside of TPS, standard Stax-builds, 3/4cc decks etc etc.

If I get round to it, I might make abreakdown for these decks.

[Vertigo]

Nice breakdown. Good toolbox for future and present use. Thank you.

Regarding the CS/Bazaar question we have in europe seen a breed of a much more aggressive control slaver variant. Bear in mind the prevalence of aggro here. However maybe you will find it useful.

1 Black Lotus
4 Juggernaut
1 Mindslaver
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Sundering Titan
3 Tangle Wire
3 Triskelion
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force of Will
1 Frantic Search
2 Intuition
4 Mana Drain
2 Mana Leak
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Walk
1 Anger
4 Goblin Welder
3 Squee, Goblin Nabob

Lands (15):
3 Bazaar of Baghdad
2 City of Brass
2 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Volcanic Island

It won a tourney here not long ago. -I myself dont really know if this is good or bad..i just felt you should see it.

[Buttons]

Nice.  Are there any other Vintage decks that can be broken down to this kind of "core"?  There was a TPS core list, at one point, but that was almost a full year agon (before Gifts hit the scene). For example, there are 31 flavors of Fish nowaday, but UbaStax has kind of a "core".

Could be useful to deckbuilders out there. Nice thread topic.

There's not much room in Ubastax's MD at all.  The deck is finely tuned, and every card is essential.  Right now, currently, in the mono-red form of the build, (which is mostly dead), there are about 4 cards that can be sculpted.

In the RG build, there are no cards that can be sculpted, virtually.  You can take out the duplicants if you want.  That's about it.

The sideboard possibilites however, are endless.

[forests failed you]

To be honest with you I would consider Darksteel Citadel more 'uncuttable' so to speak that Library of Alexandria.  Don't get me wrong, in the right metagame Library absolutely steals you games.;  However, I would consider Citadel a card that serves a specific purpose and should always be included in the maindeck.  Every single one of our Vintage Avant Garde Slaver lists, ever since Mark won the world champiionship with it last year have included at least one Citadel.  The same with Gorilla Shaman, I really can't understand not having at least one in the maindeck, especially in a metagame where you are expecting to see mirror matches, Stax, or Gifts.

In my opinion Gorilla Shaman is the most important and game breaking card in the mirror match.  Usually the match is decided by who brings down and gets Shaman online first.  He gives you an extreme advantage on Mana, not to mention the fact that he quickly eliminates the opponents Welder targets.  This is also one of the main reasons that I would never cut the maindeck Citadel.  Often times I Vamp or DT for it in order to get around opposing Shamans, to get my first Slaver into action in a closely contested game.

As far as the debate between three and four Welders goes;  I actually hate the fact that Goblin Welder is in the deck at all most of the time/  He is a tiny little one one guy that is almost always completely irrelevant to my early game plans in most non workshop match ups.  Type one is so fast, and so furious that there are tons of other things I'd rather be doing on the first three turns.  besides putting a welder into play.  I'd rather he was almost always a spell that was blue.  Whereas in comparsion I'm almost never sad to see a Shaman in my opening grip.  However, once you have lived and extended the game to the mid game, Welder really starts to become a major threat, because you have the time and the mana to really abuse him.  My thought process in cutting down to three, was that I didn't want to draw him in multiples, and I wanted to cut down on the games where he was in my opening hand; while at the same time I respected the fact that I almost always want to find one in the mid game.

The list I have playing lately has been much less combo oriented and much more focused on board control and mana denial.  Duplicant has been an abolute house for me, and in almost alll situations I think he is proving to be a much stronger addition to the deck than Trike was.  I like the way he is actually relevent against Oath and decks with Null Rod.  In spite of the fact that my list is much less prone to Tendrils kills than it was before, Burning Wish still remains a very strong addition to CS lists.  It gets Deep Analysis, Echoing Ruin, and also Rolling Earthquake; all of which are very strong Wish Targets.  Game one Wish for Deep, has proven to be exceedingly strong and game breaking in control mirrors for me.

[sean1i0]

As far as the core cards go, I have to agree on 3 goblin welders.  Sure, there are a lot of metagames where 4 is the right number, but that's just it, it's a metagame decision.  Obviously, the deck works fine with 3 of the little dudes.

On the topic of a Bazaar/slaver deck, I had fiddled around with a similar idea about a month or two ago, although mine was more a derivant of 7/10 with a few mindslavers thrown in because, well, they're mindslavers.  It didn't work quite as well as theory said it should have, but honestly it didn't get too far out of beta testing.  I'll have to go dig it back up and see what new things I can throw into it.