A viable WW?

[mr_rogers]

Yay, another WW thread!!!!  Everyone says WW is currently not viable but I wonder with all the recent additions and deck trends if this is still true.  White is often splashed for various cards such as STP and balance.  U/W Fish is very popular as is U/W control, but no one is running all the good white cards in one deck.  I'll give my current list which is very basic at the moment.

Mana
12x Plains
2x Savannah
2x Windswept Heath
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
1x Mox Pearl
1x Lotus
2x Flooded Strand

Creatures
4x Icatian Javelineers
4x True Believer
4x Kataki, War's Wage
4x Savannah Lions
3x Whipcorder
3x Isamaru, Hound of Konda

Disruption
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Null Rod
3x Swords to Plowshares
3x Seal of Cleansing

Sideboard
4x Silver Knight
4x Crusade
1x Swords to Plowshares
4x Oxidize
2x Erase

As you can see the deck is full of utility for today's big decks.  CotV/Null Rod are amazing against Gifts/Slaver.  Being almost mono-white makes the mana base strong against stax or anyother land destruction based deck.  Kataki maindeck also gives me a shot against workshop based decks in the first game, as long as they don't get a chalice for 2 down right a way.  True believer is there for the Gifts/Combo decks.  He makes it very hard for them to go off as they need to remove him first.  3 STPs and 3 Whipcorder make it very hard for DSC to get through if they manage to Tinker him out.  The rest of the main deck should be pretty basic.

The sideboard is kind of just thrown together.  Savannah was splashed in the main to run Oxidize.  I needed a non-two mana artifact destruction spell.  Erase is for added enchantment removal against Oath(probably the decks hardest match-up).  Crusade is for the aggro match-up to kind of beef up my clock against the random R/G beats or Madness that may show up.  Silver knight is for the Goblin match-up. 

I haven't had time to test this deck is any games yet but I think it would do ok.  I would like input from people on viability, main deck suggestions, and sideboard choices.

[Fubar]

Have you tried samurai of the pale curtain?  Hosing graves is one of the best forms of disruption you can do in today's game.  I would try him in the whipcorder slots.  What are you hoping to tap out anyways?  If your really worried about large men or angels comming at you just run the max swords. 
Going the null rod path is a good idea, but maybe if you try to lose the rod & go artifact route. Aether Vial is amazing when you have a deck clumped at the two slot (which always happens with WW)  Jitte can also work wonders.  I've been leaning towards even three jittes because the card wins games on it's own.
I can't see the crusade in the board helping you much at all.  I don't know your meta, but I seem to need rules of law in mine.
If your mighty worried about DSC, try running dust to dust.

edit:  You mentioned balance but don't have it in your decklist!

[pyr0ma5ta]

I like both Chalice and Null rod, but both in a deck seems excessive.  They serve roughly the same purpose (hose moxen), but 4 of either should be enough.  I like the rod better, because it doesn't do nothing on the draw, and you really don't want to set chalice for 1 or 2 anyway. 

I agree with SOTP over Whipcorder, they beat for the same, SOTP is bigger in combat, and has really good utility against welders. 

The only thing I'm worried about, if you're playing in a powered meta, is broken starts like turn 1 Necro or turn 1 mox orchard oath.  Swords help a lot there, while Dust to Dust doesn't do jack against Akroma.  An interesting card to play against oath/Colossus/random aggro might actually be Reciprocate.  Goodness knows nobody holds back the Big Iron Man(tm) to block.

[mr_rogers]

I like both Chalice and Null rod, but both in a deck seems excessive. They serve roughly the same purpose (hose moxen), but 4 of either should be enough. I like the rod better, because it doesn't do nothing on the draw, and you really don't want to set chalice for 1 or 2 anyway.

I agree with SOTP over Whipcorder, they beat for the same, SOTP is bigger in combat, and has really good utility against welders.

The only thing I'm worried about, if you're playing in a powered meta, is broken starts like turn 1 Necro or turn 1 mox orchard oath. Swords help a lot there, while Dust to Dust doesn't do jack against Akroma. An interesting card to play against oath/Colossus/random aggro might actually be Reciprocate. Goodness knows nobody holds back the Big Iron Man(tm) to block.

You want both CotV and Null Rod so that either on the draw or play you can hose early moxen.  I have not tried the samurai out yet.  I never really liked his effect.  He's great against welders and crucible locks but that's it.  Whipcorder can help against those broken starts that were mentioned.  He can tap oath creatures and DSC all day. 

[pyr0ma5ta]

If your opponent goes turn 1 necro, turn 2 tendrils for 12 copies, what's your responce?  Pretty sure Whipcorder does nothing here, while Samurai actually has a small effect by hosing 1-shot mana and Yawgwill.  Obv you'd prefer to resolve True believer here.  Rule of Law seems good here.  In fact, would maindecking rule of Law be good?  You're only going to be casting it on turn 3, after you've dropped a dude or two...Slowing down your opponent's draw/go crazy ability might be really good, and it's great against slow combo.

Chalice and Null rod serve the same purpose.  Do you really need 7 maindeck slots to fight your opponent's solomoxen?  4 Null Rods should be enough. 

Whipcorder will never get over his jetlag if your opponent plays mox orchard oath on the play.  You go plains, go, he oaths up Akroma, you go plains, whipcorder, he oaths up spirit, you're at 2 before you even untap.  Swords is your only out in this terrible matchup.  I suggest adding Reciprocate to shore it up, especially because you don't have pitch countermagic to get in a counter war over oath or Swords.

[Duffy]

I like both Chalice and Null rod, but both in a deck seems excessive. They serve roughly the same purpose (hose moxen), but 4 of either should be enough. I like the rod better, because it doesn't do nothing on the draw, and you really don't want to set chalice for 1 or 2 anyway.

I agree with SOTP over Whipcorder, they beat for the same, SOTP is bigger in combat, and has really good utility against welders.

The only thing I'm worried about, if you're playing in a powered meta, is broken starts like turn 1 Necro or turn 1 mox orchard oath. Swords help a lot there, while Dust to Dust doesn't do jack against Akroma. An interesting card to play against oath/Colossus/random aggro might actually be Reciprocate. Goodness knows nobody holds back the Big Iron Man(tm) to block.

You want both CotV and Null Rod so that either on the draw or play you can hose early moxen.  I have not tried the samurai out yet.  I never really liked his effect.  He's great against welders and crucible locks but that's it.  Whipcorder can help against those broken starts that were mentioned.  He can tap oath creatures and DSC all day. 

As Fubar mentioned, graveyard hosing is one of today's top disruption forms. You yourself mention Welders and Crucibles, which should be a large portion of the field you will go up against. Furthermore, hushed rumours of people tinkering with Dredge-a-Tog decks, not to mention Dragon and Tendrils will have trouble with the Samurai.

I also believe that with CotV, Null Rod and Kataki you have enough artifact hate out there. Therefore there would be no need for Oxidize. Taking out those 2 Savannah's for 2 more Fetchlands would be better in my opinion
good luck!

[mr_rogers]

I also believe that with CotV, Null Rod and Kataki you have enough artifact hate out there. Therefore there would be no need for Oxidize. Taking out those 2 Savannah's for 2 more Fetchlands would be better in my opinion
good luck!

And if they set CotV at 2? You need oxidize to deal with the Chalice that will wreck this deck. 

As for the broken combo starts all aggro decks have trouble dealing with them.  It's always a risk you take by not playing FoW in your deck.  I may try reciprocate(what does it do? )even though I despise the card.  I may cut chalice to run SotPC and a fourth null rod.

[Sgt. Pepper]

Have you tried Ray of Revelation instead of Erase? The Ray is a more mana intensive and won't save you from the T1 Orchard, Mox, Oath hand, but it is more effective against their counters. I would also defiantly keep the Chalice of the Voids in, instead of the Samurai's. With 4 Javelineers, 4 Chalice, 3 StP, 3 Rod and 3 Whipcorder that little Welder becomes a lot less scary. Wasteland does almost nothing against your deck to begin with and Dragon isn't played all that much. Besides, you have 4 Chalice, 3 Rod, 4 Kataki, 4 Wasteland, 3 Stp, 3 Seal of Cleansing and 4 True Believers against them as disruption. Seems good enough. The Samurai also does next to nothing against combo, except perhaps stop a second Black Lotus fro being played by Yawgmoths Will. Remember that the Samurai only stops permanents from going to the graveyard.

The only thing I would change about your maindeck is the addition of more fetchland. This deck has no card draw so it should try to optimise it's draws as much as possible.

[mr_rogers]

Have you tried Ray of Revelation instead of Erase? The Ray is a more mana intensive and won't save you from the T1 Orchard, Mox, Oath hand, but it is more effective against their counters. I would also defiantly keep the Chalice of the Voids in, instead of the Samurai's. With 4 Javelineers, 4 Chalice, 3 StP, 3 Rod and 3 Whipcorder that little Welder becomes a lot less scary. Wasteland does almost nothing against your deck to begin with and Dragon isn't played all that much. Besides, you have 4 Chalice, 3 Rod, 4 Kataki, 4 Wasteland, 3 Stp, 3 Seal of Cleansing and 4 True Believers against them as disruption. Seems good enough. The Samurai also does next to nothing against combo, except perhaps stop a second Black Lotus fro being played by Yawgmoths Will. Remember that the Samurai only stops permanents from going to the graveyard.

The only thing I would change about your maindeck is the addition of more fetchland. This deck has no card draw so it should try to optimise it's draws as much as possible.

Well I actually forgot about Ray of Revelation but I probably will add it to the sb over erase.  Chalice will probably stay in as I've tested the deck some now and like the original build.  I'm going to cut a couple Plains to run more fetch lands, I just don't need 12 plains. 

[Brutha]

Yay, another WW thread!!!!  Everyone says WW is currently not viable but I wonder with all the recent additions and deck trends if this is still true. 

Well there is White Weenie, it just slashes Blue.

The difference is that you drop Blue in favor for green. That doesn't allow you to play the best White Weenie creature = Meddling Mage. And you lose the Brainstorm Drawengine in favor for more creatures. That leaves you with no carddraw engine.

The blue slash enabled the other deck to play Force of Will over your Seals. Force seems to be a better distruption card.

You play Whipcorder over Stormscape Apprentice. Both creatures with the same ability. Your Whipcorder cost one aditional mana and has one power more. So they serve both as good as the other.

The only gain of slashing Green instead of blue is that you can play Oxidicein your sideboard. That seems to be a bad tradeoff.

[mr_rogers]

Yay, another WW thread!!!! Everyone says WW is currently not viable but I wonder with all the recent additions and deck trends if this is still true.

Well there is White Weenie, it just slashes Blue.

The difference is that you drop Blue in favor for green. That doesn't allow you to play the best White Weenie creature = Meddling Mage. And you lose the Brainstorm Drawengine in favor for more creatures. That leaves you with no carddraw engine.

The blue slash enabled the other deck to play Force of Will over your Seals. Force seems to be a better distruption card.

You play Whipcorder over Stormscape Apprentice. Both creatures with the same ability. Your Whipcorder cost one aditional mana and has one power more. So they serve both as good as the other.

The only gain of slashing Green instead of blue is that you can play Oxidicein your sideboard. That seems to be a bad tradeoff.

If I wanted a discussion of a Fish deck I would have started a thread for one.  All I want in this thread is how to improve the build of WW I posted and if the deck is even viable in any tournaments. 

[kirdape3]

Why would you play a strictly inferior deck (your WW, with no card selection) when you can play a strictly superior one (U/W Meandeck Fish, with Brainstorms and superior disruption)?

[Law]

Heres a WW deck that has gone through some testing. So far it seems it can take on all the top decks. Though for some reason it has problems with the decks right below (FCG, R/G Beats, ect...). But thats what sidebords are for anyway.

If anything at least use the deck for ideas for yours.

Lands 21
2 Karakas
10 Plains
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

Creatures 19
4 Icatian Javelineers
3 Kataki, War's Wage
4 True Believer
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 Weathered Wayfarer

Spells 20
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
3 Pithing Needle
3 Orim's Chant
4 Seal of Cleansing
1 Enlightened Tutor
3 Null Rod
4 Swords to Plowshares

[mr_rogers]

Why would you play a strictly inferior deck (your WW, with no card selection) when you can play a strictly superior one (U/W Meandeck Fish, with Brainstorms and superior disruption)?

Well because I hate Fish.  I know U/W Fish is superior but once again I didnot start a Fish thread.  I started a thread about WW because I had a decent idea for a deck and wanted to post it and get some feed back on it.  If I do want to discuss U/W Fish I'll find that thread and post my thoughts.

[Brutha]

If I wanted a discussion of a Fish deck I would have started a thread for one.  All I want in this thread is how to improve the build of WW I posted and if the deck is even viable in any tournaments.

The above list is not Mono White Weenie. That is just not true. You slash a color and blue is the better slashcolor for the deck.
If you look at old Extendet White Weenie lists you will see that a blue Slash for Meedling Mage is more typical for White Weenie than slashing green.

One year ago the "Meandeck Fish" would have been called WW/u. And it is WW/u. Fish decks follow the rule "Your creatures must have at least as much power as their casting cost, and they should have some ability to outtech your opponent if possible". That the rules on which WW is build.
Fish was the deck that played Standstill and tried to abuse the Standstill.

[wake_of_destruction]

The sideboard is kind of just thrown together


The sideboard is extremely important though.. I suggest running 3 or 4, even, Umezawa's Jitte. This is a far better answer to aggro than Crusade is (you'd be siding out your Null Rods anyway). It's also very good against burn if you can get a swing through. Thus, it makes Silver Knight less important.

Oxidize is the worst idea ever. You don't make your deck susceptible to Wastelands just to run Oxidize. Seal of Cleansing and Disenchant are better anyway. If you really want cheaper destruction, you should try Abolish.

Also, main deck the Samurai man. It's a sick creature even without its ability, which is the best ever. You need graveyard hate, whether you like it or not.

Rule of Law would also be a great sideboard option.

Lastly, you don't need both Chalice and Null Rod. Null Rod is the better option I'd say. Reactive and Proactive.

[Sgt. Pepper]

The sideboard is extremely important though.. I suggest running 3 or 4, even, Umezawa's Jitte. This is a far better answer to aggro than Crusade is (you'd be siding out your Null Rods anyway). It's also very good against burn if you can get a swing through. Thus, it makes Silver Knight less important.

True, Jitte is better against aggro, but you can't sideboard it against Gifts to combat Pyroclasm or Oldman of the Sea.

Oxidize is the worst idea ever. You don't make your deck susceptible to Wastelands just to run Oxidize. Seal of Cleansing and Disenchant are better anyway. If you really want cheaper destruction, you should try Abolish.

Susceptible to Wasteland? You run a total of 2, TWO!, duallands and atleast something like 8 basic lands (if you max out on the fetchlands). How is a manabase like that susceptible to Wasteland? Besides, Disenchant and Seal of Cleansing wont help against Chalice set at 2, which shuts down a lot in this deck. Abolish might work though.

Also, main deck the Samurai man. It's a sick creature even without its ability, which is the best ever. You need graveyard hate, whether you like it or not.

Sick without its ability? Sorry but a 2/2 bushido dork doesn't seem verry good to me. Anyway, I agree that graveyard hate can be powerfull, but the ability of the Samurai is verry limited. What does the samurai stop that the current maindeck doesnt? Welder? We have Swords, Javelineers, Chalice, Whipcorder and Null Rod. Wasteland? We have a ton of basics. Worldgorger Dragon? We have Wasteland, Seal, Swords, True Believer, Null Rod, Kataki and Chalice. What else does Samurai stop? Black Lotus?

Lastly, you don't need both Chalice and Null Rod. Null Rod is the better option I'd say. Reactive and Proactive.

Perhaps you dont need to both in play (though that wouldnt be completly useless depending) but you do need to draw either one of them in order to slow to opposing deck down. WW cant go broken like Gifts can. It needs one of these cards in order for Gifts to play fair. Since WW doesn't draw any cards it seems reasonable to play seven "speedbumps" instead of just 3-4.

[mr_rogers]

Well I was going to respond to wake of destruction but Sgt. Pepper said everything I was going to say. 

Thank-you.

[wake_of_destruction]

True, Jitte is better against aggro, but you can't sideboard it against Gifts to combat Pyroclasm or Oldman of the Sea.

How does Jitte not help against Pyroclasm? Just pump your creature. If you mean that Null Rod is too important against Gifts, then you do have a point. But that is a pretty niche deckrange to sideboard 4 cards for. Jitte is a lot more versatile.

And White Knight doens't help against Old Man of the Sea either.

Susceptible to Wasteland? You run a total of 2, TWO!, duallands and atleast something like 8 basic lands (if you max out on the fetchlands). How is a manabase like that susceptible to Wasteland? Besides, Disenchant and Seal of Cleansing wont help against Chalice set at 2, which shuts down a lot in this deck. Abolish might work though.

Those 2 non-basics could seriously screw you up though. I've had that happen with my White Weenie (Karakas). Abolish just owns it. Not only is Oxidize far more susceptible to Chalice than Abolish or even Disenchant for that matter, it's also even faster.

Sick without its ability? Sorry but a 2/2 bushido dork doesn't seem verry good to me.

I was overreacting, of course. Still, that's a fine weenie right there.

Anyway, I agree that graveyard hate can be powerfull, but the ability of the Samurai is verry limited. What does the samurai stop that the current maindeck doesnt? Welder? We have Swords, Javelineers, Chalice, Whipcorder and Null Rod. Wasteland? We have a ton of basics. Worldgorger Dragon? We have Wasteland, Seal, Swords, True Believer, Null Rod, Kataki and Chalice. What else does Samurai stop? Black Lotus?

Your opponent has cards too, you know. Fires, permission. Anyway, let's go over those cards you listed. Null Rod doesn't do a lot here. (Welding in fatties costs 3 mana; TFK. Sure, it cripples the player. But the can still Weld in the fatties). Chalice on 1? And screw 11 of your weenies? Not to mention 8 of your answers in StP and Javelineer. That's a pretty bad play. That leaves Javelineer and StP, which will not be ennough all the time. I agree with Dragon though. That's some sick maindeck hate you've got there.

Anyway, for 2 mana you get a great weenie all on its own with a nice little extra ability that will at times save your ass. Why would you not run it? What greater alternative is there that demands his slots?


Perhaps you dont need to both in play (though that wouldnt be completly useless depending) but you do need to draw either one of them in order to slow to opposing deck down. WW cant go broken like Gifts can. It needs one of these cards in order for Gifts to play fair. Since WW doesn't draw any cards it seems reasonable to play seven "speedbumps" instead of just 3-4.

Let's not forget that White Weenie is an agressive deck. Sure, some maindeck hate is fine. But 4 Null Rod and 4 Chalice is just ridiculously overabundant. Let's not hop on the anti-Gifts bandwagon too soon, you don't want to find yourself losing to crap.deck. You also have 4 Seal of Cleansings btw (little help, but still).

Seriously, you can side some extra hate. No reason maindecking 8. Also, you can't effectively put Chalice on 1 or 2. That shuts down too many of your own cards. Chalice is pretty niche.

[Guli]

Yay, another WW thread!!!!  Everyone says WW is currently not viable but I wonder with all the recent additions and deck trends if this is still true. 

Well there is White Weenie, it just slashes Blue.

The difference is that you drop Blue in favor for green. That doesn't allow you to play the best White Weenie creature = Meddling Mage. And you lose the Brainstorm Drawengine in favor for more creatures. That leaves you with no carddraw engine.

The blue slash enabled the other deck to play Force of Will over your Seals. Force seems to be a better distruption card.

You play Whipcorder over Stormscape Apprentice. Both creatures with the same ability. Your Whipcorder cost one aditional mana and has one power more. So they serve both as good as the other.

The only gain of slashing Green instead of blue is that you can play Oxidicein your sideboard. That seems to be a bad tradeoff.

Wrong. Rancor would be awsome

[Sgt. Pepper]

How does Jitte not help against Pyroclasm? Just pump your creature. If you mean that Null Rod is too important against Gifts, then you do have a point. But that is a pretty niche deckrange to sideboard 4 cards for. Jitte is a lot more versatile.

And White Knight doesn't help against Old Man of the Sea either.

Null Rod is indeed the reason that you won't board Jitte in against Gifts. I agree though that Jitte is very powerfull and perhaps it could replace some of the Silver Knights.

Those 2 non-basics could seriously screw you up though. I've had that happen with my White Weenie (Karakas). Abolish just owns it. Not only is Oxidize far more susceptible to Chalice than Abolish or even Disenchant for that matter, it's also even faster.

Oke, there are a couple of situations in which those 2 duals could screw you over. The chances of that happening are slim to none. If Gifts or Slaver can get away with running just 3-5 basic lands and 5-6 fetchland, I don't see how running 8-12 basics plus 4-8 fetchland will be a reliability.
As far as Abolish goes, it does have it limits. You do have to draw an extra plain for it to be good (pointing out the obvious, I know). Besides, the original post said he needed Oxidize to combat Chalice at 2. Perhaps Chalice for 1 doesn't matter all that much? He already has 4 Kataki and 3/4 Seal in the 2 mana slot to deal with any artifacts so perhaps a 1cc card is the right call.

Your opponent has cards too, you know. Fires, permission. Anyway, let's go over those cards you listed. Null Rod doesn't do a lot here. (Welding in fatties costs 3 mana; TFK. Sure, it cripples the player. But they can still Weld in the fatties). Chalice on 1? And screw 11 of your weenies? Not to mention 8 of your answers in StP and Javelineer. That's a pretty bad play. That leaves Javelineer and StP, which will not be enough all the time. I agree with Dragon though. That's some sick maindeck hate you've got there.

Anyway, for 2 mana you get a great weenie all on its own with a nice little extra ability that will at times save your ass. Why would you not run it? What greater alternative is there that demands his slots?
 

Sure they can stil weld in an artifact under Null Rod, but I don't think 1 big fattie will be enough to completely stop this deck. Not only do we have Whipcorder and Swords, we can also race/alpha strike for the win. Besides, what are they going to weld into play? A Trisk? That's just a 4/4, not very scary. Platinum Angel could be a problem but not many lists run her anymore. As for Chalice, he can stop Welder be playing it for 0 on turn 1. They can still play Sol Ring or Darksteel Citadel (or Mana Vault if they play it), but it does stop 6-8 Welder targets.
Better alternatives to the Samurai include Whipcorder, Kataki, Seal of Cleansing and True Believer. Whipcorder and Seal of Cleansing are necessary to fight Oath. Kataki is just awesome against Stax and helps with the manadenial plan. True Believer is one of you few chances you have against combo, and the only thing maindeck that isn't an artifact. Seems like some though competition.

Let's not forget that White Weenie is an aggressive deck. Sure, some maindeck hate is fine. But 4 Null Rod and 4 Chalice is just ridiculously overabundant. Let's not hop on the anti-Gifts bandwagon too soon, you don't want to find yourself losing to crap.deck. You also have 4 Seal of Cleansings btw (little help, but still).

Seriously, you can side some extra hate. No reason maindecking 8. Also, you can't effectively put Chalice on 1 or 2. That shuts down too many of your own cards. Chalice is pretty niche.

Nitpick: he only maindecks 7. Anyway, like you said, ww is an aggressive deck so it needs speed in order to win fast. Null Rod and Chalice provide that speed by delaying your opponent long enough for you to win. Both cards increase your clock just as much as any random dork would (if not more) but also make it a lot harder for you opponent to win the game. Chalice for 1 or 2 is also not the most terrible of plays if you already have a decent clock on the table. Who cares if you can;t play that second Savannah Lions if your beating them for 6 a turn and are denying him Recall, Brainstorm, Sol Ring, Mystical Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Goblin Welder, Dark Ritual and what not.

[wake_of_destruction]

Oke, there are a couple of situations in which those 2 duals could screw you over. The chances of that happening are slim to none. If Gifts or Slaver can get away with running just 3-5 basic lands and 5-6 fetchland, I don't see how running 8-12 basics plus 4-8 fetchland will be a reliability.
As far as Abolish goes, it does have it limits. You do have to draw an extra plain for it to be good (pointing out the obvious, I know). Besides, the original post said he needed Oxidize to combat Chalice at 2. Perhaps Chalice for 1 doesn't matter all that much? He already has 4 Kataki and 3/4 Seal in the 2 mana slot to deal with any artifacts so perhaps a 1cc card is the right call.

Yeah well, instead of those duals, you could be running Karakas, which totally screws oath game 1. Karakas + Abolish > Dual + Oxidize. Sides, Abolish will never get Chalice'd and does have the ability to destroy an enchantment as well, should that be required. Just an added bonus. You could side it in versus Oath for example.

Sure they can stil weld in an artifact under Null Rod, but I don't think 1 big fattie will be enough to completely stop this deck. Not only do we have Whipcorder and Swords, we can also race/alpha strike for the win. Besides, what are they going to weld into play? A Trisk? That's just a 4/4, not very scary. Platinum Angel could be a problem but not many lists run her anymore. As for Chalice, he can stop Welder be playing it for 0 on turn 1. They can still play Sol Ring or Darksteel Citadel (or Mana Vault if they play it), but it does stop 6-8 Welder targets.
Better alternatives to the Samurai include Whipcorder, Kataki, Seal of Cleansing and True Believer. Whipcorder and Seal of Cleansing are necessary to fight Oath. Kataki is just awesome against Stax and helps with the manadenial plan. True Believer is one of you few chances you have against combo, and the only thing maindeck that isn't an artifact. Seems like some though competition.

Trisk may be only a 4/4, but it is recurrable. It doesn't die, so to say. And at some point your opponent will draw/tutor an answer like Rushing River or something. I'm not saying it's gonna happen all the time, but I think you're giving Welder a little too few credit here. Anyway, I asked you what greater alternatives there are that demand those slots. My weenie built runs 4 Samurai, Seals and True Believer, and 3 Whipcorder and Kataki. What's the problem, really?

Nitpick: he only maindecks 7. Anyway, like you said, ww is an aggressive deck so it needs speed in order to win fast. Null Rod and Chalice provide that speed by delaying your opponent long enough for you to win. Both cards increase your clock just as much as any random dork would (if not more) but also make it a lot harder for you opponent to win the game. Chalice for 1 or 2 is also not the most terrible of plays if you already have a decent clock on the table. Who cares if you can;t play that second Savannah Lions if your beating them for 6 a turn and are denying him Recall, Brainstorm, Sol Ring, Mystical Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Goblin Welder, Dark Ritual and what not.

Don't forget you have no draw at all. Every second Chalice or Null Rod is a dead card. You're going to stop playing threats real soon. You'll have really bad topdecks.really bad:

- land
- Hound of Konda
- Kataki
- Chalice
- Null Rod

Optimizing the threats, the beats is absolutely essential. 4 Null Rods is even a lot, but of course passable. The 3 Chalices are just totally overkill. And again, Chalice on 1 is rarely an acceptable play. By my count, it shuts down 25% of your deck (StP, Javelineer, Lions, Hound). Seldom is that going to be a trade you're willing to make. Chalice pretty much sticks to '0', which makes it a dead card in several occasions:

- your opponent is playing an unpowered deck
- your opponent may begin the game
- you don't have it in your opening hand
- you already have one in play
- you have a Null Rod in play

I understand that in some of these cases Chalice is somewhat useful, but certainly, certainly not worth any slots. Seriously, you're running 4 Null Rods. 4 Added to that you're running 4 Kataki (also overkill IMO, it's a legend) and 4 Seal of Cleansing.

 

[Fubar]

Sick without its ability? Sorry but a 2/2 bushido dork doesn't seem verry good to me. Anyway, I agree that graveyard hate can be powerfull, but the ability of the Samurai is verry limited. What does the samurai stop that the current maindeck doesnt? Welder? We have Swords, Javelineers, Chalice, Whipcorder and Null Rod. Wasteland? We have a ton of basics. Worldgorger Dragon? We have Wasteland, Seal, Swords, True Believer, Null Rod, Kataki and Chalice. What else does Samurai stop? Black Lotus?

Samurai does a hellof alot more than just hose welders or dragon.  He can be a ccompletebitch when you bump into him at a tournament.  Hosing graves can win you all kinds of random matches.  Basically it comes down to him or whipcorder, and I can't see why the 'corder would be better maindeck material in a normal tournament meta when you have a deck packing lots of swords.  But if your meta renders the grave hate unneunnecessaryen obviously he's side material.  If your constantly flooded with oath in your area, this would be true.  But samurais interaction with gaes blessing is interesting.

@mr rogers:  have you tried to go the suppresion field route?  You could tweak your deck to minimize activations, and it is one of the most brutal disruptions I see in white.  Although it does come in that blasted two slot.

[Sgt. Pepper]

Yeah well, instead of those duals, you could be running Karakas, which totally screws oath game 1. Karakas + Abolish > Dual + Oxidize. Sides, Abolish will never get Chalice'd and does have the ability to destroy an enchantment as well, should that be required. Just an added bonus. You could side it in versus Oath for example.

With 8-12 plains I see now reason why you couldn't run Karakas in addition to those 2 duals. As for Abolish, testing will have to show which card is better. Abolish looks better on paper though it is more likely to fail (not having a extra plain) then Oxidize (which just requires a dual or a fetchland).

Trisk may be only a 4/4, but it is recurrable. It doesn't die, so to say. And at some point your opponent will draw/tutor an answer like Rushing River or something. I'm not saying it's gonna happen all the time, but I think you're giving Welder a little too few credit here. Anyway, I asked you what greater alternatives there are that demand those slots. My weenie built runs 4 Samurai, Seals and True Believer, and 3 Whipcorder and Kataki. What's the problem, really?

Trisk being recurrable doesn't matter, you 2/x creatures won't kill him in the first place since you'll be most likely be attacking him instead of the other way around. That the opponent might draw a bounce spell isn't something that you can prevent in the first place, so why bother worrying about it?
As for slots that take the Samurai's place, I guess those would have to go to the 4 Chalice of the Voids that you don't seem to be running.

Don't forget you have no draw at all. Every second Chalice or Null Rod is a dead card. You're going to stop playing threats real soon. You'll have really bad topdecks.really bad:

- land
- Hound of Konda
- Kataki
- Chalice
- Null Rod

Optimizing the threats, the beats is absolutely essential. 4 Null Rods is even a lot, but of course passable. The 3 Chalices are just totally overkill. And again, Chalice on 1 is rarely an acceptable play. By my count, it shuts down 25% of your deck (StP, Javelineer, Lions, Hound). Seldom is that going to be a trade you're willing to make. Chalice pretty much sticks to '0', which makes it a dead card in several occasions:

- your opponent is playing an unpowered deck
- your opponent may begin the game
- you don't have it in your opening hand
- you already have one in play
- you have a Null Rod in play

I understand that in some of these cases Chalice is somewhat useful, but certainly, certainly not worth any slots. Seriously, you're running 4 Null Rods. 4 Added to that you're running 4 Kataki (also overkill IMO, it's a legend) and 4 Seal of Cleansing.

True, this deck can have a lot of bad topdecks, which is one of the weaknesses the deck has. However, I firmly believe those 4 Chalice are necessary in order to fight the decks with more inherited power. Most of the topdecks out there are playing with mox-en, so I think it's worth giving up a slight advantage against random-aggro.deck. Also, like I said, Chalice at 1 is acceptable if you already have a decent clock on the table. As for instances in which Chalice is dead: we already knew that, but that hasn't stopped people from playing it in Fish the last couple of years.

Samurai does a hell of alot more than just hose welders or dragon.  He can be a ccompletebitch when you bump into him at a tournament.  Hosing graves can win you all kinds of random matches.  Basically it comes down to him or whipcorder, and I can't see why the 'corder would be better maindeck material in a normal tournament meta when you have a deck packing lots of swords.  But if your meta renders the grave hate unneunnecessaryen obviously he's side material.  If your constantly flooded with oath in your area, this would be true.  But samurais interaction with gaes blessing is interesting.

You said that Samurai does a whole lot more then just hose Welder and Dragon. Then you say that Samurai is good against Blessing... I'm sorry to have to ask this, but do you really know what Samurai does? Only permanents that go to the 'yard are removed, not card from the graveyard, hand or stack. If you do know this, against which other decks is Samurai so much better? Really, I can;t think of an example that hasn;t already been named..

[wake_of_destruction]

With 8-12 plains I see now reason why you couldn't run Karakas in addition to those 2 duals. As for Abolish, testing will have to show which card is better. Abolish looks better on paper though it is more likely to fail (not having a extra plain) then Oxidize (which just requires a dual or a fetchland).

Well, if you find it possible to be running Karakas and duals, you should run 4 Karakas instead. It's still better than having to run duals for Oxidize. 6 non-basics is really pushing it.

Trisk being recurrable doesn't matter, you 2/x creatures won't kill him in the first place since you'll be most likely be attacking him instead of the other way around. That the opponent might draw a bounce spell isn't something that you can prevent in the first place, so why bother worrying about it?
As for slots that take the Samurai's place, I guess those would have to go to the 4 Chalice of the Voids that you don't seem to be running.

And if your opponent draws bounce but you have that Samurai, there's no need to prevent it. If he has a Trisk in play and draws Bounce, he can realistically kill 5 of your creatures (double ping, ping himself, weld him back in). Point is that it's just a good help. I do agree on it being the least necessary though, so I see the problem you're having because of Chalice.

True, this deck can have a lot of bad topdecks, which is one of the weaknesses the deck has. However, I firmly believe those 4 Chalice are necessary in order to fight the decks with more inherited power. Most of the topdecks out there are playing with mox-en, so I think it's worth giving up a slight advantage against random-aggro.deck. Also, like I said, Chalice at 1 is acceptable if you already have a decent clock on the table. As for instances in which Chalice is dead: we already knew that, but that hasn't stopped people from playing it in Fish the last couple of years.

You're not only giving up an advantage against random-aggro. deck, you're giving up an advantage against most decks in the format. Chalice just stops the moxen and some other stuff, which get shut down with Null Rod anyway. So your problem is what? First turn kills?

And Fish doesn't run Chalice, Vial Fish does. The reason is because it can't run Null Rod. Plus, Vial Fish can effectively put Chalice on 1 or 2 thanks to Aether Vial.

None of the existing Fish builds run both Chalice and Null Rod MD.

[mr_rogers]

None of the existing Fish builds run both Chalice and Null Rod MD.

This is untrue.  Meandeck U/W Fish runs both.  There is an article on Starcitygames about the deck.  The reason you want both is to increase your chances of stopping powered decks acceleration on turn 1.  If I'm playing first I like my odds better if I have 7 ways of shutting down artifact mana on turn one.

[Prometheon]

I've played WW at 3 pretty big vintage tournies (not SCG big, but 50+ players, 10 proxies, good decks), and T4ed at several smaller ones (4 or 5 rounds) and I will give you two pieces of advice. 1. Abolish is nuts. 2. Ramosian Seargeant is amazing if you run Whipcorder (which you should.) The Seargeant IS your card advantage.

Some other things: Serenity should be in your SB somewhere, and Chalices (at least in my testing) were unneccessary. Also, I absolutly love the Karakas tech; thats awesome. But I cannot endorse Weathered Wayfarer. He just devours your tempo. You tap him (instead of swinging) AND a land (instead of casting something) just to grab a land? And only if you have less to start with? No thanks.

[Fubar]

You said that Samurai does a whole lot more then just hose Welder and Dragon. Then you say that Samurai is good against Blessing... I'm sorry to have to ask this, but do you really know what Samurai does? Only permanents that go to the 'yard are removed, not card from the graveyard, hand or stack. If you do know this, against which other decks is Samurai so much better? Really, I can;t think of an example that hasn;t already been named..

My point was that blessing doesn't trigger as it is now RFG.  Thus a timely swords on the angel can win you the game.  Unless of course they are boarding iradescent/pristine.  But then the kill is too slow anyways.

[mr_rogers]

My point was that blessing doesn't trigger as it is now RFG.  Thus a timely swords on the angel can win you the game.  Unless of course they are boarding iradescent/pristine.  But then the kill is too slow anyways.

You must not know what the samurai does at all.  Blessing is not a permanent and is not affected by the samurai.  Permanents are lands, creatures, artifacts and enchantments the are in play.  They are not permanents in your hand or library or anywhere but in play.  The blessing will always trigger if you have a samurai in play.  The reason samurai sucks is it doesn't hose graveyards as much as people think.  It stops Dragon and welding but that's about it.  It's useless against Oath, Gifts, and most other decks I see in my area.

[wake_of_destruction]

This is untrue.  Meandeck U/W Fish runs both.  There is an article on Starcitygames about the deck.  The reason you want both is to increase your chances of stopping powered decks acceleration on turn 1.  If I'm playing first I like my odds better if I have 7 ways of shutting down artifact mana on turn one.

Really? I have not heard of such a build.

You must have missed this thread: http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=26219.0
-Jacob