Djinni Oath

[Apprentice]

A new card that has been previewed in Guildpact called Djinn Illuminatus has caught my eye. I have always followed Oath and its many varients, but I think that this creature has something on Akroma and Spirit of the Night. Here is the text of the card:

Djinn Illuminatus
Creature- Djinn
5 B/R B/R (these are hybrid mana costs)
Flying
Each instant and Socrery spell you play has Replicate. The Replicate cost is equal to it's mana cost. (When you play it, copy it for each time you payed it's Replicate cost. You may choose new targets for the copies.)
3/5

When I saw this card my jaw dropped, the first thing that I thought of was Oath. This card is not "win-more" but it will assure the win in almost any situation that it hits play. By adjusting the maindeck list of t-1 Oath I think that not only can you win with this card, but you can abuse it effectivley enough so that people will fear it. I adjusted the decklst to include more devastating "replicate" cards, things like Demonic Tutor and Accumulated Knowledge. Without further ado, I will show you my thoughts on the decklist.

U/g/b Djinni Oath

Combo (8):

4 Oath of Druids
2 Berzerk
2 Djinn Illuminatus

Tutor/Draw (14):

R Ancestral Recall
R Time Walk
R Regrowth
R Demonic Tutor
R Y@wgmoth's Will
1 Gaea's Blessing
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Intuition

Counter/Control Elements (15):

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
2 Mana Leak
2 Duress
1 Oxidize

Mana Sources (23):

4 Forbidden Orchard
5 Moxen
R Srip Mine
R Black Lotus
R Library of Alexandria
2 Wasteland
4 Blue Fetchland
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Island

Card selections:

The most contraversial selection that I added to this deck besides the Djinn himself will probably be Berzerk. I included it because the kill condition even though it adds alot to the control elements is much weaker then before. Spirit of the Night could kill in about three turns, while the Djinn will have a much longer clock than that. But if you have the Djinn out and one Berzerk in your hand, then all you need is three mana: G to make Djinn a 6/10, G to make it a 12/20, and G to make it a 24/40.

Regrowth: I noticed that this card is missing from many current Oath decklists. Although it is not quite powerful as a 1-of, with Djinn it becomes a house and a second Y@wgmoth's Will.

Ak/Intuition engine: This one was the obvious draw engine choice because I can mulitiply each AK if the Djinn is in play which makes it easier to draw into Berzerk. The engine is still great if you dont have the Djinn out.

Duress/Oxidize: These are the cards that are incredible with Djinn on the turn you attack. 2 Duresses with one card is great, but three is even better. Oxidize clears the entire board of artifacts with the Djinn in play!

I haven't tested the manabase that much. Library of Alexandria is on the edge of being cut for another Island. It so far has worked nicely, but it might not be worth it in the long run. Does it look like I have enough souces of each color? Does Dark Ritual deserve a spot for synergy with the Djinn? Should I include Brainstorm? More Duress or Cabal Therapy? I want some feedback!

-Apprentice

[TJ-Whoopy]

a 3/5 hardly seems fast enough in today's environment, spirit and akroma were chosen specifically to kill before you're opponent cna get a foot in the door or find an answer. I think if you run this is should be side, it might be fun against a control deck but I can't think of many situations where I want to oath and then not just win right away

[Apprentice]

That was the reason behind my inclusion of Berzerk. With enough draw Djinn will most certainly enable you to get a Berzerk allowing you to win in one turn (two when you count Summoning Sickness) for just three mana on that turn. Once the Djinn hits play you can do so much, you can draw yourself into oblivion, wipe out an opponents hand or kill them ASAP. If you ask me I think that Djinn does MORE then Akroma does, even if it is less protected and its power isn't as large.

-Apprentice

[Moxlotus]

Since when does Oath get 3 green mana consistantly quickly?  Also, the Djinn sucks without Zerk-so you need to have it also.  Replicating stuff in Oath sucks because Oath barely ever has more than 3 or maybe 4 mana maximum.  This is besides the fact that there are 0 Brainstorms in the deck which is an atrocious error.

[Apprentice]

What should be cut for Brainstorm? I did realize that that was a large descrepency from most other Oath decks. I should find space for 4.

-Apprentice

[Mantis]

As much as I like all of these cool new creatures, the creature package in Oath is perfectly fine. Akroma + Razia/Spirit of the Night mostly gives a 2 turn clock which is perfectly fine, and probably the best. This Djinn also causes you to run the Berserks and stuff which is not good. I really wish people would start working on the actual Oath deck, rather than the creature configuration, which is in my eyes really good until something obviously better comes around like Razia opposed to Spirit.

[Apprentice]

Its just a test to see if this creature could be more powerful then the ones that have been around for ages. I have played this deck several times and you can usually pull a win after the first two turns that Djinn coes out. Three is the latest. Lets say that you didnt even have a Berzerk in your hand. You could easily draw into it with multiple AKs, or tutoring. The actual build for Oath is probably as good as it gets. The recent article about the skeleton opf Oath shows this. The top-8 Oath decks all run the same skeleton, and this is just a stab as to what could be.

-Apprentice

[Thug]

The actual build for Oath is probably as good as it gets.

Leak is soo much better than Drain in Oath, so this list cant be optimal.
Djinn + Berserk will only be faster than akroma + razia if your opponent hasn't hurt himself yet, ad if you draw into berserk, and have triple green. I think that boils down to about 0.01% of the situations in which you activate your Oath.
I'm a huge fan of innovation, but you're really on the wrong path here.
Aside from the normal creature base Bringer/Slaver, Rector/Bargain/Sight, Salvager/Spellbomb all seem better than this, so if you want a comboish finish take a look at them.
If you're looking for a way to abuse the dragon, I dont think there is one in vintage.
The cards does look insane in type 4, although probably too powerfull.

Koen

[Moxlotus]

I have played this deck several times and you can usually pull a win after the first two turns that Djinn coes out.

The trick is realizing that Akroma/Razia kills 2 turns after the first gets Oathed out if the opponent hasn't dealt damage yet.  They kill a turn earlier than Djinn does if they have dealt 2 damage to them.  This is without the help of other cards like Berserk.  Innovation is good, but you must make sure it isn't inferior to what's currently available.

[jro]

The most contraversial selection that I added to this deck besides the Djinn himself will probably be Berzerk. I included it because the kill condition even though it adds alot to the control elements is much weaker then before. Spirit of the Night could kill in about three turns, while the Djinn will have a much longer clock than that. But if you have the Djinn out and one Berzerk in your hand, then all you need is three mana: G to make Djinn a 6/10, G to make it a 12/20, and G to make it a 24/40.

I don't mean to be rude, but if you are going to suggest janking up a good deck with Berserk, you could at least 1) spell the card name right and 2) properly understand its effect.  Berserk only boosts power, not toughness.  Not to mention that pulling out your 2-card 2.5-turn 0-mana investment win condition for a 4-card 2-turn GGG-mana investment win condition is probably not a good idea, especially in a deck that is fundamentally blue, not green.  Sure, copying random broken cards is flashy, but why screw around when you can just win?

[ix-ir]

Maybe it's not the greatest idea since sliced bread, everyone starts somewhere. This attitude will kill your community. Even if there's a history behind it anyone like me from outside the community really isn't going to bother getting involved when seeing reactions like this.

[Kasuras]

Maybe it's not the greatest idea since sliced bread, everyone starts somewhere. This attitude will kill your community. Even if there's a history behind it anyone like me from outside the community really isn't going to bother getting involved when seeing reactions like this.

I think you'll find the following articles a good read:

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/3689.html

An article by Chad Ellis on "The danger of cool things".

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart2.htm

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart3.htm

3 Articles about "playing to win".


The problem with the suggestion offered is that it is inferior to the cards currently run in the deck:

As said by others, Akroma often has to swing 3 times. Together with Spirit of the Night; that is 2 turns after you have played the Oath. Compare this to your suggestion: it also requires 2 turns, but also requires an extra card. Therefore, the only situation in which the Djinn is better than Akroma and SotN is:

-When your opponent only has 1 creature and you don't have Forbidden Orchard.
-You have access to Berserk.
-Your opponent has no way of hurting himself such as fetchlands.

The important distinguishing factor is that Akroma and SotN help to kill the opponent while the Djinn can perhaps swing for 20 and offer card advantage by copying other spells, which ultimately leads to killing the opponent as well.

What is an option is to put a Djinn in the sideboard against decks such as fish: they've got a lot of ways to tap or bounce the Oathed creature, but tapping doesn't matter against the Djinn. Then there is of course the question whether this strategy is better than, for example, Ancient Hydra in that matchup but I don't know that much about Oath matchups to give a statement about that.

Welcome to the community!

[ix-ir]

I am not Apprentice and thanks for linking the articles but I've read them before and understand why Apprentice's ideas aren't so hot.

[Sylvester]

Why this card is unlikely to successfully see play in vintage: It doesn't just win, but costs as much as creatures that do. DSC, Akroma, etc. are win conditions in themselves. No one in their right mind expects to hard cast either these or the djinn. The question then becomes, if you know you're not going to be paying their mana cost, why use a creature that requires another card (and some more mana) to be effective instead of bringing a one-card win condition in play? Essentially, Djinn is a two-card combo, while modern win conditions are usually one card win conditions (or one card in synergy with the whole deck). It's cool, but it doesn't win more; it wins less. The djinn is no doubt interesting, but, if I'm going to bring an expensive creature in play without paying its mana cost, I'd usually (for nearly always values of usually) prefer it to be something else.

Oh, and please [everyone] don't turn this into another TMD is eleetist rant. We've been having those since before TMD existed, and I'd say that the precedence of right over nice is what distinguishes our community.

[B166ER]

and I'd say that the precedence of right over nice is what distinguishes our community.

It doesn't have to be one or the other.  Common courtest doesn't have to go out the window when explaining something that is considered more optimal than a proposed idea.

[lordmayhem]

Common courtesy doesn't have to go out the window.

Agreed. Though many communities like to act like they know it all and get really nasty with people. 

@ Apprentice : The idea of oathing up a creature to just mess around is bad. No offence, but why fiddle around with instants and sorceries when you can just smash face and win? Taking your time just means giving time to your opponent to:

a) Win before you
b) Kill your creature
c) Set up a lock

If fun is all you're after, then by all means : Have fun. But your proposed idea is a watered-down version of Oath that has a much lower win percentage.

[LotusHead]

U/g/b Djinni Oath

Combo (8):

4 Oath of Druids
2 Berzerk
2 Djinn Illuminatus


-Apprentice

I too want to have a fatty Forking Replo-Machine in play, and I want it to be broken.

But I would first throw a list together, play it against other decks in the field (Oath, Gifts, Stax, Control Slaver, some Combo deck) and see if the theory pans out before throwing a list up for TMD to respond too.

Have you played this build against other decks yet?  Innovate all you want, post all you want, but (as all the complaints about getting GGG up and availiable/non-Haste issues) you gotta clue us into how/if the deck actually works.

That being said, I will probably be testing that Djinn out with Team Vacaville and see what we can come up with.

(And yes, I may replace Salvager #2 in my own Oath Salvager deck for one of these bad boys!)

[Firefly]

This card is not "win-more"

And why isn't it win-more?

No offence, but why fiddle around with instants and sorceries when you can just smash face and win? Taking your time just means giving time to your opponent to:

a) Win before you
b) Kill your creature
c) Set up a lock

If fun is all you're after, then by all means : Have fun. But your proposed idea is a watered-down version of Oath that has a much lower win percentage.

I think this post by lordmayhem perfectly illustrates why the Djinn IS win-more. I mean, when the Djinn hits play, all you do is fiddle around with other spells. If one of the 'regular oath creatures' would be in play you would be taking away life points, thus winning.
It's a fun idea, but it doesn't add to quality of the current Oath lists.

[Khahan]

Here are the pros and cons I see in the Djinn Oath route:

Pro:
In a long, drawn out game, he's the same as akroma/spirit. They'll need 2 turns (assuming 2 oath activations) to kill. Assuming in a long, drawn out game, your opponent has taken at least 2 points from FoW/fetch (otherwise, it wouldn't have been long and drawn out).
Djinn will need 2 turns to kill (oath him in,  next turn attack and berserk him out the wazoo).

In a short game, he's worse than Akroma/Spirit. If you get a first turn oath, which would you rather have - a 3/4 that COULD swing for 24 IF you had sufficient mana (which you won't on a turn 1 oath), or a 6/5 flying haste creature?

The only time he might be valuable is in a long, drawn out game he can offer better protection vs StpS, giving you a slight advantage in counter wars.

I guess if you set your deck up properly (meaning a non-standard oath skeleton), you could win the turn he comes out by burn.

[Evenpence]

The card should be looked at more closely.  The guy can do multiple ancestral recalls.  The demand for reusable mana is absurd, however.

The more mana in this deck, the better, which renders null rod virtually useless - the best addition to the deck in a good time.

However, the ability to drop a bunch of moxes, an orchard, an oath, next turn academy - etc is crazy.  Also, if you made it so you could play your moxes as instants (not sure how that would work) you could replicate hurkyll's recall/rebuild to get infinite mana to use whatever crazy instant/sorcery you had in your hand.

Dark Ritual to Dark Ritual becomes crazy.

This guy allows you, with the right cards, to win the turn he comes into play.  That's better than SOTH/Akroma, in one sense.

I don't think it will replace Akroma/SOTH, but it's worth more of a look than many of us have given.

[TimeWizzle]

I agree with the above posters that as the deck is listed, it is strictly worse than the current creature configs (angels, spirits, bombermen, etc.). 
However, I am looking at this in more of a combo deck.  Try a current Grim Long list, changing the manabase to 4 Orchards and then fit in 4 oaths and this Djinni guy.  I haven't built/tested it yet so I don't know what 5 cards to cut.  But as stated, chaining Dark Rits/tutors/ancestral/timewalk is stupid good.  And honestly I don't know if you would want to cut the Swarm or not, oathing it out isn't terrible either.  Recoup might need to be included also (if you mill the Will).  Just a thought, seems like it could be good, but i dunno if it would be better than existing Long lists, maybe just flashier. 

[UR]

I'm seeing a few ideas in this thread that just won't work. You can replicate a spell as many times as you wish when you announce it but you will have to pay the cost at that time. This;

Dark Ritual to Dark Ritual becomes crazy.

...does not produce infinite mana (unless ofcourse you had infinite mana to begin with).

However, I am looking at this in more of a combo deck.  Try a current Grim Long list, changing the manabase to 4 Orchards and then fit in 4 oaths and this Djinni guy.

Try BigMac's TPS list with Oath sideboard. He just won a tournament with it yesterday and has been performing well with it for a long time.

[rvs]

Isn't Oath's main target to actually get Oath going? Your whole premise for this deck is that you have Djinn in play, and then do cool things, while the idea should be to get Oath going, and just win.

[Evenpence]

Dark Ritual to Dark Ritual becomes crazy.

...does not produce infinite mana (unless ofcourse you had infinite mana to begin with).

I never said that it produced infinite mana, and while I can understand that it might be a simple miscommunication and complete assumption on your part that I meant infinite mana, I said dark ritual TO DARK RITUAL, which already infers that I don't think that infinite mana can be attained.

However, it nets you EIGHT BLACK MANA profit, nine total. 
(one to cast the first ritual and then you can duplicate the second one three times, obviously.)

Okay, seriously, going dark rit to dark rit to FOUR DEMONIC TUTORS with a black floating is just absurd.

Oh, by the way, then you go get cabal ritual, dark ritual, dark ritual, and yawg's win, and win the game right there, as you can put about ten different cards in your hand with the second super replicated DT, like tendrils.  You don't even have to wait for berserk.

Or, if you're not running Tendrils, you can do this with your four demonic tutors:

Ancestral Recall, Tolarian Academy [or crop rotation, if you already played a land this turn] (assuming you have some moxes), Lotus, Yawg's Win.  Then you win just by drawing into some rituals or artifact mana to get like 2 demonic tutors and two broken spells which you can abuse mana on.  If you produced enough blue mana, you could just use ancestral to deck your opponent, but who wouldn't play tendrils in this deck?

Demonic is the easiest thing to go crazy with in the deck, although other things can just power you to victory, like necropotence or bargain.  Mystical can get Demonic in addition to Imperial Seal and Vampiric Seal, and Merchant Scrolls can get you the Mystical or Ancestral, etc to power into this kind of stuff.

Ancestral replicated just spells game over alot of times, even if it's just twice or three times because you'll acquire so much mana, it's absurd.  AK is pale in comparison.  I would just take out AK all together, personally, as it's slow.

Isn't Oath's main target to actually get Oath going? Your whole premise for this deck is that you have Djinn in play, and then do cool things, while the idea should be to get Oath going, and just win.

Gifts added nifty combo to a basic control deck, and even though the deck has absurd amounts of dead cards, it still does well.  A combo oath build will have less dead cards than Gifts, although it will be worse (most likely).

The deck would be completely different from modern oath builds, however.

It would most likely be something like 4 dark ritual, 2 cabal ritual, yawg's win, recoup, every power arifact available including petal and chrome mox (although diamond is probably out of the question) and a ton of rainbow lands, orchard leading the pack.  It would probably look alot like a TPS list (as mentioned above) with a few changes.  The Djinn would make it at least 2x as easy to go off.  Plus, the deck is able to get around null rod hate via dark ritual to dark ritual stuff.

A single Djinn is all that's needed if you're playing with brainstorms.

Once again, for everyone who's reading this:  I do not think this combo oath list will by any means be better than a traditional oath build.  However, it is an interesting thought, and should be looked into further because it DOES have potential.

Regrowth: I noticed that this card is missing from many current Oath decklists. Although it is not quite powerful as a 1-of, with Djinn it becomes a house and a second Y@wgmoth's Will.

Recoup is almost strictly better than regrowth in this deck.  I didn't see it in your decklist, and I was really wondering why when I saw Yawg's Will.  It's understandable that you might want to regrowth the will and then cast it next turn to save up two mana, which can really make a difference with Mr. Replicate,

However, recoup is useable when it's in the graveyard, and you should be running Dark Rits. 

[cosineme]

Dark Ritual to Dark Ritual becomes crazy.

...does not produce infinite mana (unless ofcourse you had infinite mana to begin with).

Okay, seriously, going dark rit to dark rit to FOUR DEMONIC TUTORS with a black floating is just absurd.
Oh, by the way, then you go get cabal ritual, dark ritual, dark ritual, and yawg's win, and win the game right there, as you can put about ten different cards in your hand with the second super replicated DT, like tendrils.  You don't even have to wait for berserk.

this deck sucks. i don't think you even tested it. there are a lot of problems and namely mana is one of them.

legacy, as is vintage, is regulated by wastelands. wastelands might not be at the height of their play numbers, but they still dominate and shift the entire meta-game. oath already has an extremely tenuous mana base. they don't play more than 2-3 basics, and that means that there is no way you're going to be able to FOUR DEMONIC TUTORS. also, as seen in previous incarnations of oath, as well as gifts, you don't need to draw; you don't need CA. all you need to do is put your threat on the board and make the opponent answer it. with oath, that means impulse into a FOW for a turn, mana leak for a turn, and say gg.

you're going to oath, put this guild guy on the board. you're a.recall 4-5x to protect your...3/5 threat? i'm not worried about a 6 turn clock (and adding berserk to the deck is also quite silly. you're going to either oath it into the grave, you're going to have it in your first 7 as a dead card, or you're going to will it back...which if you successfully will after oathing, you already win, you don't need the berserks).

[dicemanx]

I think this idea is flawed. It's neat, but flawed. If you are dependent on the Oath plan, you will likely expend your resources setting Oath up. This means that cards like Demonic or Ancestral will likely *not* be in your hand after the Oath hits the table, because you're likely to play them first in order to set Oath up in the first place. And if you have little business that can benefit from replicate after Oathing in the average game, then this strategy is unfortunately worthless.

Of course you could argue that the deck isn't reliant on Oath, since its a hybrid of both Oath and TPS combo. Well, if that's the case, the Tendrils kill doesn't really need Oath to begin with to assist the Tendrils kill; in fact, you'd probably want to create an Oath hybrid so that you can steal wins via Akroma/big creature beatdown in case the TPS strategy gets shut down. For instance, CotV for 1 is particularly problematic for TPS, but the Oath plan can muscle its way past it without having to resort to finding and resolving artifact bounce. This idea isn't necessarily superior to just straight TPS, but it's in line with the spirit of hybrid strategies - flexibility. There is too much danger here that if your primary kill mechanism is shut down, you will have way too many dead cards.

Gifts added nifty combo to a basic control deck, and even though the deck has absurd amounts of dead cards, it still does well.  A combo oath build will have less dead cards than Gifts, although it will be worse (most likely).

This couldn't be further from the truth. Gifts prides itself on being one of the few decks in the format which doesn't have many, if *any* dead cards. In fact, a lot of the combo-control strategies have this feature, and is one reason why they tend to do so well. This build could be excellent if it combined a true oath plan with Tendrils, but using Oath for the purpose of setting up a replicate plan looks like a serious downgrade in power and could lead to way too many dead cards.

The comment about this deck having potential mana problems is spot on. Its not so much that you'll have trouble having enough mana to cast your spells - the problem fundamentally lies in being able to actually take advantage of replicate fully, something that happens to be very mana intensive unless you luck upon a few cards that would make it worthwhile. The criticism that this idea hasn't been properly playtested (or even tested *period* for that matter) is also quite appropriate - the onus is always on the poster of the new idea to make SURE that you are presenting something that you've determined to have some merit and is worthwhile, and NOT just in theory.

If all we have so far is theory, I'm pretty sure that theoretically speaking this idea is junk in its current incarnation (this is hardly a sleight against the poster of the idea of course). I hope to be proven wrong however.

[cosineme]

If all we have so far is theory, I'm pretty sure that theoretically speaking this idea is junk in its current incarnation

it's like the french say - "it draws, it does cool things, it's elegant, it's fun...my deck, i just win"

[freakish777]

To be honest, I'd like to make a deck that gets Djinn in play and does cool stuff.  I'm fairly positive this is a pipe dream however.

I'm a little surprised that the "cool thing to do" with Djinn that everyone is talking about is Berserking him up.  In my opinion, casting 6 Time Walks in a turn off Lotus/Academy is about the sexiest thing imaginable (in Magic atleast).

Unfortunately this means you have to find and get Oath into play, find and get Orchard into play (some of the time), and then use Demonic/Mystical/Vampiric to find Walk or Academy.

All in all, more complicated then just playing Oath and swinging with angels.

Still, if you're going to do cool stuff with the Djinn, please run lots of tutors and take 6 turns in a row.

[UR]

I never said that it produced infinite mana, and while I can understand that it might be a simple miscommunication and complete assumption on your part that I meant infinite mana, I said dark ritual TO DARK RITUAL, which already infers that I don't think that infinite mana can be attained.

However, it nets you EIGHT BLACK MANA profit, nine total. 
(one to cast the first ritual and then you can duplicate the second one three times, obviously.)

Okay, seriously, going dark rit to dark rit to FOUR DEMONIC TUTORS with a black floating is just absurd.

If you are trying to make a combo deck that does insane things... make a combo deck that does insane things. Not a sub-optimal variation to an Oath deck. I agree that the scenario you just described is insane... and the one in a million games that it will actually happen, you will win.

After spending all your resources on getting an Oath of Druids into play and protecting it, it is just very unlikely that you will still be holding two Dark Rituals and a Demonic Tutor. And while we are on the subject... why put Dark Ritual in Oath anyway? How will it help you if don't have a Djinn in play? I know what the card does and how it is helpful, but I think there are cards out there that would better fit the slots...

[Brutha]

Why 2 Djinns? 1 Djinn +1 Akroma should be just as fast.

Niv-Mizzet seems also like a good Oath creature. He is a bit like Hydra or Triskelion.