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Question: What's your opinion on unofficial spoilers? (i.e. MTGSalvation, MTGNews)
I love 'em and I'd hate to see them go. - 20 (35.1%)
Unofficial spoilers are good for the MtG community - 19 (33.3%)
'Couldn't care less. - 13 (22.8%)
I think unofficial spoilers do a disservice to the MtG community - 4 (7%)
h8 spoilers! Fry the fucker. - 1 (1.8%)
Total Voters: 56

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Author Topic: Spoilers - What's your opinion?  (Read 3035 times)
Bardo
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« on: January 21, 2006, 12:36:39 am »

With Darren Rudder (aka Rancored_Elf from MTGSalvation and previously MTGNews) being sued by Wizards of the Coast for spoiling cards from future sets, I thought it would be a good time to talk about the nature of (unofficial) spoilers in general.

What's your opinion? Do you looking forward to reading spoiled cards on MTGSalvation (for competitive advantage or just for fun)? Do you think they're bad for the game in general? Or do you not give a shit about any of this?
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Machinus
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« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2006, 12:46:35 am »

Darron generates huge amounts of hype for new sets, which WotC benefits from. This is why they have allowed him to continue his work until now.

I think it is stupid for WotC use the pretext of a "negative reaction" that they say they are getting from the scans being leaked. Players are way more irritated about changes like R&D removing counterspell and ruining the card face - yet they paid no attention to the negative response to those changes. The real point of this suit must be to expose and remove less loyal members of R&D. I'm sure WotC likes the attention they get from rumour seasons, and they certainly enjoy the profits it generates, so it seems like there is some kind of purge going on.

Oh, and also: Flanking is cool! Reprint Suq' Ata Lancer!
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« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2006, 01:46:08 am »

Couldn't care less. Everyone gets two weeks of 100% accurate spoiler after the prerelease anyway, so there's really very little in-game advantage from spoilers.
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« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2006, 02:38:17 am »

I think why Wizards is so pissed about the leaks is because of what was actually released.  They dont care about the guildpact leaks, they even told people to check out leak site to prepare for the prerelease.  Their panties are in a knot over the snap releases, supposidly from coldsnap.  The synical side of me thinks that they are afraid people will find out they were lying about the whole thing (if the flanking is real and was supposed to be in the ice age block, then why did it show up in the following block when the set it was originally designed for "vanished").  They could also be afraid that the leaking of playtesting cards that are crap will drive down interest in a set they have worked very hard to promote against much skepticism regarding the validity.  I love the actual spoilers, and I don't think Wizards will do anything about out of house leaks.  After its left them to go to the printers, it's so close to release time it's not that big of a deal.  Releasing info on a set due out in July is a big deal.  I hope nothing bad happens to him, as he is an important part of our community, but I do understand why Wizards is upset.

The funny part is that RE highly doubted the leak was even real, but if this is, in fact, why Wizards is taking him to court, then they have just confirmed them to be real.  God I really dont want to have to dust off my old flanking deck.  Sidar Jabari is happy in Florida with all the other retirees.

j
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Machinus
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« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2006, 03:21:41 am »

I think why Wizards is so pissed about the leaks is because of what was actually released.  They dont care about the guildpact leaks, they even told people to check out leak site to prepare for the prerelease.  Their panties are in a knot over the snap releases, supposidly from coldsnap.

These are the scans I was referring to.
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Matt
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« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2006, 03:22:23 am »

Did I miss something? What scans?
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« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2006, 03:35:02 am »

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« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2006, 05:41:56 am »

Just for clarification,

I believe the playtest cards are from SNAP, as in the first expansion of the next block, code named SNAP CRACKLE POP.

I thought Coldsnap was different from that, or am I mistaken?

Anyways, carry on.
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« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2006, 05:45:39 am »

Yes, they are from SNAP. You can see the set abbreviation "SNP" on the cards.
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« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2006, 10:08:06 am »

Yes, they are from SNAP. You can see the set abbreviation "SNP" on the cards.


Are we in any danger of getting sued for showing those images?
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« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2006, 11:56:54 am »

The suit is just a pressure suit intended to get RE to give up his sources by exhausting him in court.  WotC doesn't actually have a case against him and they almost certainly know it.  They're just betting that in order to avoid a long and costly court proceeding, RE will tell them where the leak came from.  The problem with this is that RE probably doesn't know any of the John Does named in the suit, as most of his sources are anonymous.
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« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2006, 12:26:59 pm »

To be clear, this isn't a thread about R_E vs WotC. This is about your opinion on spoilers in general. What do you get out of them? How much do you look forward to reading them? Do you go to MTGSalvation daily or every other day to find what new cards are coming out? Do you try to avoid them so as not to spoil the fun of surprise? Or have you been playing MtG too long to not get overly excited about new sets coming out and you're a jaded old git now?
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« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2006, 12:57:19 pm »

I wasn't jaded until I got horribly burned by Onslaught.
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« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2006, 02:28:45 am »

Perhaps if Wizards are so anti-spoiler they will stop hyping new sets by showing us new cards. Or do they think that people want to see info about new sets?

If I was boss at Wizards, a well-run website that collected all leaked info about new sets would be a godsend! I could quickly see where info had leaked from and take appropriate steps.

Regarding the lawsuit, wouldn't any judge just throw it out immediately under freedom of speech, freedom of information? They really don't have any case at all as far as I can see, seeing as RE has never worked for them and is unlikely to have crept, ninja-style, into the vaults of Wizards. In any case, he could just claim to have found info about the sets lost at the back of an old filing cabinet, we all know from Wizards that this is a believable scenario.
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« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2006, 09:30:23 pm »

MtgSalvation has now also been threatened directly with legal action.

This is a bad sign indeed. It no longer appears that the released information about the playtest cards are the problem. Wizards has named the Guildpact spoilers as one of the big problems, and it appears that they are going to ignore the fans and try to squelch ALL rumor information that does not come from them.

While neither MTGSalvation, nor this site (at least in theory), condones an actual boycott of Wizards products, I am curious about the idea. I am not sure that the idea will have an impact; new sets will ALWAYS be purchased in incredible quantities. In short, this was the perfect time for Wizards to perform this action without alienating all of their fans. This reeks of corporate manipulation. This, unlike the whole frame thing, may just piss me off enough for me to never again buy packs, regardless of what may be in them.

Currently, I was enjoying a bit of a renewed interest in Standard and Limited formats, where Wizards makes their money. This kind of corporate malfeasance, though, is the kind of thing that puts me right off. Instead of playing, I think that I am done with Standard and Limited. I will buy singles on the secondary market, but only from dealers that seem to be acquiring at least some of their cards from traders and players. I can feed the beast, but I will do so in as limited a fashion as I can to show my disappointment.

Bad Wizards. Bad!! Act like a decent company, and not like Games Workshop! Bad corporate entity.

Any thoughts?

Harkius
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Machinus
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« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2006, 09:39:19 pm »

Quote from: Hannes, MTGS owner
This thread serves the purpose to inform you that my host has received a DMCA Complaint from Wizards of the Coast about copyright infringements.

I already removed the six threads mentioned in the letter but I am not completely sure what else we will have to remove if the complaint is valid.

The letter is dated January 19th, so the Guildpact spoiler had already gone up. WotC is really pissed.

On a side note, who buys packs anyway?
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« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2006, 09:43:35 pm »

I'm really surprised by this seeing how there have been spoilers on MTGS and MTG News as far back as I can remember getting information about Magic off the Internet.  The only time I remember WotC getting really mad was Judgment, and that was more directed at how MODO wasn't secured.  And I seem to remember the occasional column at MTG.com before some of the prereleases where a columnist would recommend for people to check spoilers before the tourney if they wanted to prepare.
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« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2006, 09:54:03 pm »

DMCA? I'm pretty unclear on how the DMCA applies here. I thought the main thrust of that piece of legislative vomit was preventing users from circumventing encryption to material. I'm not quite sure how it applies to this, but of course, I am not a lawyer, demonic or otherwise.
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« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2006, 10:18:34 pm »

DMCA? I'm pretty unclear on how the DMCA applies here. I thought the main thrust of that piece of legislative vomit was preventing users from circumventing encryption to material. I'm not quite sure how it applies to this, but of course, I am not a lawyer, demonic or otherwise.
While the DCMA certainly wasn't intended to interfere in matters such as these, its language is sufficiently vague to allow gross abuse, even if you were to grant that the purpose for which it was intended was a proper one.  It wouldn't surprise me in the least if a clever lawyer were able to apply it here.
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« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2006, 11:56:03 pm »

I can't say I see the actual problem here. I'm certainly not going to boycott anything. I don't see where Wotc has done anything wrong. The people leaking information are the ones who broke the rules. They knew the risks when they decided to spoil info; and sometimes your number comes up.

This is like saying, "Officer, I run this red light every day and I got away with it those times, so you should let me off now."
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« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2006, 12:32:12 am »

Absolutely, Wizards is perfectly within their rights to close up the leaks, if they can. Quite frankly, however, I have a strong distaste for heavy-handed corporate pressure tactics such as this.  In fights such as these the corporation almost invariably wins simply because they can outlast the private citizen who doesn't have anything approaching even a fraction of the resources available.  It really makes a mockery of the justice system to let money determine the outcome this way.  That is my primary issue with this suit.
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« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2006, 12:38:56 am »

I can't say I see the actual problem here. I'm certainly not going to boycott anything. I don't see where Wotc has done anything wrong. The people leaking information are the ones who broke the rules. They knew the risks when they decided to spoil info; and sometimes your number comes up.

This is like saying, "Officer, I run this red light every day and I got away with it those times, so you should let me off now."

Oh, no. You misunderstand. I agree that it is their right to attempt to stop corporate espionage, as they appear to see it. That was not my point at all. Rather, my inference from their timing is that they are using the popularity of a new set to overcome the response. Instead of being legitimate, and filing the complaint in the middle of rumor season when the most potential damage could be done, they ignored it until Guildpact was released. This, in effect, says, "It would be too unpopular for us to do this now. Let's wait till everyone is on our side a little more before we do it. Hey, I know! Let's wait for a new set in a universally popular block! That way, fans will be less likely to organize some effective action!"

I have no problems with them attempting to protect their material. But, doing it in this fashion screams illegitimacy. Crap. This is corporate manipulation, and I don't like a company jerking me around like this. I won't tolerate it. That is what I am protesting. If they want to screw the anticipation of a new set by burning the barn on spoilers, let them. Prerelease attendance will probably drop, fewer packs will get sold, and they will start to release information (more information) on their own.

Sorry about the miscommunication.

Harkius
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« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2006, 01:07:56 am »

I think you're seeing a phantom conspiracy where there is none. OF COURSE this is going to accompany a new set's release -- that is the only time when spoilers exist!

Chris Romeo and Anonymous both make some good points on Starcity today regarding this issue, especially Romeo:

Quote
While I don't like that Hasbro is doing this, they almost have no choice. If they don't protect their copyrights now, they may never be able to do so in the future. In fact, given how long WotC has allowed spoilers to leak, they may have already waited too long.
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« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2006, 01:37:02 am »

Of course Wizards have to right to sue anyone they please. Of course they have to right to try to track down people who leak information about their new products.

That doesn't mean they have to treat someone who runs a web site promoting Magic so shabbily. Whilst they may have that right that doesn't mean that it is right.

If wiazrds managed to shut down MTGSalvation another web site would rise in its place, just as MTGSalvation grew from the ashes of MTGNews (which is still going BTW). The internet is such that if information exists and is in demand, someone somewhere will put it out there. There will be sites that post rumours about MTG and out of those one will be the most trusted and/or most up to date.

In any case, Wizards have tightened up the leaks so that even MTG Salvation didn't have all of the cards before the prerelease. Wizards tend to release the bombs themselves anyway and the days of good players going to tournaments unprepared, blind to the internet has long gone. I love ripping open packs to find new cards but even if I knew nobody else had seen a spoiler, I'd still chose the advantage of knowing over the joy of discovery. Frankly so would most players.
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« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2006, 04:29:52 pm »

I think you're seeing a phantom conspiracy where there is none. OF COURSE this is going to accompany a new set's release -- that is the only time when spoilers exist!

Wow...you SO MUCH missed my point. They did not file this legal action in the middle of spoiler season, when it would be doing the most damage. Instead, the lawsuits were announced the Friday (or Thursday) before the prerelease, and immediately after it. This clearly doesn't relate to their protected property, but rather to the company getting tired of it and using the release of a popular set to quash the irritating sites. I expect that if Champions of Kamigawa had been as popular as Ravnica, this would have happened a year ago. As is, they probably got sick of it during Mirrodin season, and they have been waiting for the "appropriate" time to act.

As far as a "phantom conspiracy", conspiracies usually involve multiple people and/or organizations. This is one organization (The legal Company) acting at the behest of/on behalf of another. It's clever marketing, not a conspiracy. There isn't enough here to qualify it as a conspiracy and labeling it thusly does it disjustice. Anything labeled as a conspiracy is automatically less credible, as anything labeled a manifesto is automatically viewed with distrust and apprehension.

Harkius
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