[deck] Dra-Gro-Naut

[Kasuras]

Dra-Gro-Naut!
-by Kasuras
4 Volcanic Island
6 Island
3 Mountain
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus

4 Wee Dragonauts
3 Goblin Vandal
4 Grim Lavamancer

3 Lava Dart
1 Echoing Truth
2 Fire/Ice
2 Misdirection
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Gush
3 Careful Study
4 Brainstorm
1 Burning Wish

This deck’s potential lies in the fact that…

Right, sorry. Yes; go ahead, look it up. Wee Dragonauts. Yes, that is Wee; double you, ee, ee.

I’m not going to talk about the deck’s specific strengths: I do not know them. Then again, what can you expect from a deck built a day after the full spoiler of the set was published? Me neither.

I can provide some theory though:

The fundamental idea of the deck is that it is a blend between the old Gro-A-Tog decks and UR Fish, the former because of the Dragonauts themselves, and UR Fish because of the reliance on tempo and 1on1 removal. The deck is fresh, and thus far from complete so ideas on how to improve this deck would be great.

Manabase seems good enough to me: sufficient to cast the things you want to cast on the first turn, and once you have hit the 3 manasources and got one of the Dragonauts: you can sacrifice the useless mountains to Lava Darts. I’m thinking about the addition of another fetchland because getting to 3 mana might be a problem, but you’re running quite a lot of draw as well so it seems solid. My goldfishing proved that it wasn’t really a problem either, and you have enough basics not to be afraid of Wastelands.

The creaturebase might require some more explanation, especially on the Vandal and Lavamancer. I have chosen Vandal over Shaman because you want to cast your own stuff as well, and you won’t have that much mana often: 3 is the max. The Lavamancer because I want to shoot down everything I want whenever I want, and because your graveyard will be filled a lot with random stuff you won’t be able to recur with Yawgmoth’s Will. Simply put: the Lavamancers are there to make use of the graveyard as a resource.

I hope the removal stuff speaks for itself, just a little note on Lava Dart that it is totally awesome here: it can let a Dragonaut grow for 4 and do 2 damage as well. Yes, dear reader: that is indeed more than Gush did for Pscychatog. (edit: almost as much..)

Sideboard will at least have a few Shattering Sprees, a draw card, Energy Fluxes, Null Rods and either Stifle or Needle.

Why this deck is worthy of discussion: it’s a solid deck with lots of synergy and removal.

Hope to hear some input on this deck.

[ChemEng]

Lava Dart + Dragonaughts seems really strong. Maybe up to 4 to maximize this synergy?

On a larger scale, the question is probably if UR is competitive. Then why this version is better than standard variety.

[Kasuras]

Lava Dart + Dragonaughts seems really strong. Maybe up to 4 to maximize this synergy?

On a larger scale, the question is probably if UR is competitive. Then why this version is better than standard variety.

I removed an Island for an extra Dart. The land count, 22, proved to be a little too much.

It is an aggro deck running a lot of removal, Force of Will, a way to potentially kill the opponent in 1 turn and has a lot of synergy; I don't see why this deck shouldn't be given a shot. Or do you mean that I should add more colors?

[Kowal]

Err...  You know it says until end of turn, right?

So assuming you have a spell to cast every turn, he's still worse than Serendib, and harder to cast.

[EnialisLiadon]

Careful Study?  Eck.  While it does fill the graveyard for Lavamancer, it's still card disadvantage, which is bad--especially in a deck that wants to chain a bunch of spells for a huge faerie wizard.  Perhaps a better cantrip would suffice?

[Kasuras]

Err...  You know it says until end of turn, right?

So assuming you have a spell to cast every turn, he's still worse than Serendib, and harder to cast.

You know that Psychatog also says until end of turn, right..?

Yeah, comparing this to Psychatog might be a little ambitious but I hope you get where I'm going. You don't cast 1 spell a turn, you cast multiples potentially killing the opponent in 1 turn with it. I don't see Serendib doing that. Not to mention that 1 Lava Dart combined with Dragonauts does 7 damage to the opponent, oh and it has flying! Really, it looks like a pile but it's not.

Careful Study?  Eck.  While it does fill the graveyard for Lavamancer, it's still card disadvantage, which is bad--especially in a deck that wants to chain a bunch of spells for a huge faerie wizard.  Perhaps a better cantrip would suffice?

Yeah, the first version was more of a Madness, featuring Fiery Temper, but I haven't found a better cantrip effect yet. Besides, it's not that bad considering you often discard useless lands with it.

Speaking of lands, I removed 1 for an extra Fire/Ice. At the moment, 21 is just too much when running a lot of cantrips. I've put 1 Island in the sideboard against Stax and decks where Null Rod is necessary. Misdirection and Daze.. I'm starting to dislike them, I think I'm going to try Stifles.

Edit: now that I'm awake, Lava Dart combined with Dragonauts does more damage than Gush in Psychatog: 7 vs 6,5. Eat that you flapless vampire!

Edit 2: funny anecdote I just had. 2 Dragonauts in play, cast Brainstorm with 1 other card in hand. Draw 2 Lava Darts and something. 30 damage to the dome!

[Khahan]

I do see the potential for this deck to be good. But I also see the exact same potential for it to fall flat on its face and leave you stranded.

What happens when you  have to burn all your spells the first 4-5 turns while you dig for the wee men?

Its seems that for every game that you get it in your opening hand and it doesn't get countered, you will have a game where you have spend resources finding 1 and then be left empty handed (maybe the pun was intended) after you cast him. Sure, you can do that lava dart trick and smack for 7. And maybe your oppenents and fetches have done another 2-3. So your opponent is at 10 life.

It just seems to have the potential for an awfully long clock once its on the board.  To that end, I would look at more flashback spells and recoup. 

This may be a good deck for deep analysis. Not only does it pump  your dragonauts, but it digs out more cards to pump further. Also, believe it or not you may want to try firecat blizt in this deck. Who cares about sacing the mountains?  At the point you are doing this, you should be winning (if you use blitz).
The only other card with any potential I see is volcanic spray.  While the cards themselves may not be powerful,  how they interact with the dragonauts is.

[ChemEng]

I think that Intuition fits this deck also. Intuition for 3 Lava Darts with the Dragonaughts is 12 damage for 4 mana.

It may also warrant running AKs as well to help you draw your Dragonaught if you havent drawn him already.

[TheAlpha]

I fail to see why I even want to run Wee Dragonaunts besides because of the fact that it has a cool name 

It totally lacks synergy with everything you play in your opponents turns, the castingcost is horrible (you can't drop him rregularlyturn 1 like with Quirion Dryad) and it's doesn't get to keep the +2/+0 which makes it quite hard to keep constant pressure.

The whole idea is fun, but I doubt it's potential and effectiveness.

[lordmayhem]

Replicated spells should make it grow right?

If so, you ought to take a look into playing Gigadrowse.

If your opponent can block, you can just tap it while growing your Dragonauts.

Also, have you considered playing Reckless Charge? Giving your creature a +5/+0 boost for R seems like a fine plan to me.

[Jacob Orlove]

Replicate puts copies on the stack, but it doesn't count as playing additional spells.

Charge seems weak here. The haste is offset by having to cast the dragonauts one turn later, and you probably won't have the mana for more spells that turn--if you can cast nauts turn 2 and attack turn 3 ith lots of cantrips, you're much happier than a turn 3 attack with haste.

If you're playing careful study to discard lands, just run a correct mana base instead. Peek, Serum Visions, Opt, and Sleight of Hand are all much better options for U cantrips.

[Kowal]

It has occurred to me that though I still think this idea is poor for vintage play, abusing dragonauts in legacy might be super hot.  Have you considered a port?

[ChemEng]

Berserk (in multiples of course) would be quite fun with them.

[Hi-Val]

GOGO DAGRONAUTS!

This deck seems to want to filter like hell through so it can make its Dragonauts really big and hopefully land multiples of them. This means cantrips, but the ol' medulla got to thinking about Curiosity as well. You have two nice targets-- Lavamancer and Wee Ones-- and it puts cards into your grip all the time. For the same reason, Merchant Scroll might be pretty decent.

[cssamerican]

Daze and Misdirection seem weak because you want to grow your Dragonauts before or during your combat step, unlike the Dryad you don't get counters that stick around. I would probably try and make the deck a little more proactive with burn and cantrips.

Lava Dart doesn't have as much synergy as people are making it out to have either. Sacrificing a mountain to us its flashback makes it harder to cast spells in future turns. So, it only seems good if your trying to kill in one turn, and I don't think the mechanic will allow that with any type of consistency. Things like Lightning Bolt actually seem really solid because it is 3 damage that may also result in an additional 2 damage with a Dragonaut and 1 damage with a Lavamancer. That is potentially 6 damage for without any drawbacks.

[TheStu]

Gorilla Shaman and Rootwater Thief seem like great cards to put in this deck to deal with the traditional bad matches that most fish decks encounter, Stax and Oath. They also have broader uses, the monkey to destroy artifacts and the thief to put the hurt on decks that run few win conditions, like gifts, slaver, tps (remove the tendrils and burning wish if it runs it) and such.

I agree with Kowal in the fact that this deck should have the cheap cantrips ever present in the gro archetype like Serum Visions, Opt, Sleight of Hand etc. I also think as far as draw goes putting in the single Frantic Search isnt such a bad idea, even if this deck doesn't run the multi-mana lands the card's usually abused with. I think it has great synergy and fits in with the decks M.O. (filter, pump, fly over and win).

[UR]

It has occurred to me that though I still think this idea is poor for vintage play, abusing dragonauts in legacy might be super hot.  Have you considered a port?

I think that people in Legacy are well prepared for a creature so the deck would suffer a lot of splash-damage. It is red after all...

[Kasuras]

I'll just go right to the new decklist:

4 Volcanic Island
4 Island
1 Mountain
2 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus

4 Wee Dragonauts
4 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lava Dart
1 Echoing Truth
3 Fire/Ice
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

1 Gush
4 Stitch in Time
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm


I'll get to the explanation on this decklist first, then a general explanation on the deck and then reply to the replies.


Manabase
Roughly: 20 total, 5 SoloMoxen, 6 fetch, 5 basic, 4 duals. 20 Might be a little low, esspecialy now that I have upped the Mox-count, I'm looking into the addition of another Island at the cost of something else. Not sure what though, and since the deck cantrips pretty fast through the library, you don't want that a lot of lands when you already have enough: lands won't pump the Dragonauts.

6 Fetch because the deck is a "Gro" type of deck; you don't really need that much mana, and also of course to feed the hungry Lavamancers. The 5 SoloMoxen is an experiment.. or at least the 5th is. The Lotus, Ruby and Sapphire make sense and I have added another one because the number of spells with 1, or more, in their manacost was also upped. I'm now testing how the 5th SoloMox is working out for me, I like it though.

Creatures
The first notable difference with the last list was the removal of the Goblin Vandals. I have tested a few games against stax and they're just not that great: I really need that mana for other stuff. And they're not that great against control either because I must race them; they won't really mind that dead Mox, I will mind that I don't have that R to use on other stuff.

The Lavamancers are just too good to remove, and the Dragonauts are pretty obvious.

Removalp
Lava Dart is awesome; kills Welders, Fish and the opponent together with the Dragonauts. Fire/Ice is there for the same reason; it kills stuff. And it also happens to cantrip, give card advantage (when killing multiple 1/1s) and tap big bad DSC/Akromas. Not sure whether 3 is the right count, I'm considering removing 1 for an extra Island. I still have 4 Merchant Scrolls to look for them if the need arises. Daze is good because it's free, looking into replacements though. Mana Drain or Counterspell are not good replacements because they require me to not tap out during my first main phase.

Draw/cantrip base
That's where the discussion commences, the rest of the deck is pretty much set in stone but the cantrip debate is an important one for this deck.

Brainstorm, Time Walk, Ancestral Recall and Gush are obvious, so that leaves:

4 Stitch in Time
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor

In my opinion, the 4 Merchant Scrolls and 1 Mystical Tutor are best fit for those 5 slots: they find cantrips, are cheap and also find the 1-ofs such as Time Walk (in the case of Mystical Tutor) and Echoing Truth. Not to mention that Merchant Scroll into Ancestral Recall is solid.

Stitch in Time.. I knew I would be ridiculed for wanting to use a new card just because it's a new card, and I suppose the same will happen for this one. He's good though: an extra turn! Of course, being dependant on lady luck sucks, and so does the manacost: but I like it. It's the most debateable card in the deck though.


Wee Dragonauts: yes, they don't look like the stone cold nuts at first glance, I know. I could say; test it!!1, but that's not how the forums work so here's my second take at why Wee Dragonauts is pretty awesome:

-Can potentially kill an opponent in 1 turn. I don't see any of fish's creatures or Dryad do that.
-Has the flap-flap ability. (very important, probably the most important reason why Dragonauts > Tog)
-Has a 1/3 body, which means virtually no removal played nowadays (read: Darkblast, Lava Dart, Fire/Ice, Hurkyl's Recall) hurts it.
-Can win a cagefight with Akroma.


I'm very happy that apperantly a lot of people show interest in the deck, I hope most of the questions or comments are answered by the new decklist, but here's my reply to the rest:

It has occurred to me that though I still think this idea is poor for vintage play, abusing dragonauts in legacy might be super hot.  Have you considered a port?

Yes, I have even considered not posting this deck here but work a little more on the Legacy version. It's being worked on.

Gorilla Shaman and Rootwater Thief seem like great cards to put in this deck to deal with the traditional bad matches that most fish decks encounter, Stax and Oath. They also have broader uses, the monkey to destroy artifacts and the thief to put the hurt on decks that run few win conditions, like gifts, slaver, tps (remove the tendrils and burning wish if it runs it) and such.

I'm considering these for the sideboard.

Lava Dart doesn't have as much synergy as people are making it out to have either. Sacrificing a mountain to us its flashback makes it harder to cast spells in future turns. So, it only seems good if your trying to kill in one turn, and I don't think the mechanic will allow that with any type of consistency. Things like Lightning Bolt actually seem really solid because it is 3 damage that may also result in an additional 2 damage with a Dragonaut and 1 damage with a Lavamancer. That is potentially 6 damage for without any drawbacks.

Let's compare the two:

-Dart is better against Welders.
-Bolt with 1 Dragonaut is better.
-Dart with 2 Dragonauts is a LOT better.
-Bolt is better when shooting at the dome without a Dragonaut in play.
-Bolt is better at shooting down bigger creatures than 2/2. It's just that there aren't any that apply for that; DSC and Akroma won't die anyways.

I'm still convinced that Lava Dart is better.

Daze and Misdirection seem weak because you want to grow your Dragonauts before or during your combat step, unlike the Dryad you don't get counters that stick around. I would probably try and make the deck a little more proactive with burn and cantrips.

Misdirection is removed, and I don't think I want less than 8 counter effects. I've been considering the following counterbase:

4 Force of Will
2 Daze
1 Stifle
1 Misdirection

Might be better with the 5 tutors I run, haven't got around to testing it though.


It starts to look like something good, so I request it to be moved to open vintage so more people take a look at it (serious).

[lordmayhem]

What about Twincast/Fork and some burn over the use of Lava Dart?

Assuming that you have 3 lands in play, Wee Dragonauts in play and your opponent is at 20 life.

Cast Lightning Bolt. Life total : 17. Dragonauts 3/3.
Cast Twincast/Fork. Life total : 14. Dragonauts 7/3.
Smash face. Life total : 7.

This gets even better with 2 Dragonauts in play.

[+t]

Can win a cagefight with Akroma.

If by "win a cagefight" you mean "chump block if you completly empited your hand", you'd be correct.  If you meant "kill", you'd be wrong.  Akroma has protection from red.

It does kill Spirit, and it can trade with Razia, but you're basiclly screwed if someone Oaths out Akroma.

I think that this illustrates a need for more maindeck bounce.  Perhaps Rushing River wouldn't be the best card to use, as you're already saccing a shitload of lands with Lava Dart.  Maybe another Echoing Truth?  This also gets rid of Angel, which is a big problem for you pre-board.

[Kasuras]

Can win a cagefight with Akroma.

If by "win a cagefight" you mean "chump block if you completly empited your hand", you'd be correct.  If you meant "kill", you'd be wrong.  Akroma has protection from red.

It does kill Spirit, and it can trade with Razia, but you're basiclly screwed if someone Oaths out Akroma.

I think that this illustrates a need for more maindeck bounce.  Perhaps Rushing River wouldn't be the best card to use, as you're already saccing a shitload of lands with Lava Dart.  Maybe another Echoing Truth?  This also gets rid of Angel, which is a big problem for you pre-board.

Right, that comment of mine plainly sucked.

Yeah, another Echoing Truth is something I've been considering, but I'm not sure in place of what. Fire/Ice?

[UR]

If by "win a cagefight" you mean "chump block if you completly empited your hand", you'd be correct.  If you meant "kill", you'd be wrong.  Akroma has protection from red.

The 'Protection from Red' thing entirely prevents the chumping...

[Khahan]

What about Twincast/Fork and some burn over the use of Lava Dart?

Assuming that you have 3 lands in play, [card]Wee Dragonauts[/card] in play and your opponent is at 20 life.

Cast Lightning Bolt. Life total : 17. Dragonauts 3/3.
Cast [card]Twincast[/card]/[card]Fork[/card]. Life total : 14. Dragonauts 7/3.
Smash face. Life total : 7.

This gets even better with 2 Dragonauts in play.

Not sure how you are doing your math.
Cast bolt: Life total 17. Dragonauts 3/3
Cast twin-fork: life total 14 Dragonaust 5/3 (twincast puts a copy on the stack and putting copies on the stack don't trigger dragonauts).
Smash face: 9 life

Ok, not too big a difference, but important.

[bebe]

Have you considered fling? I've actually had a few situations recently with aggro/control decks where I needed to fling because I could not attack for damage. Plus it would pump wouldn't it?
I actually think Fork would be a decent counter and pump card and all round useful but I'm a fan of the card. I understand it can be situational but so is stifle and misd.
What are you thinking for the sideboard? Blasts, Pithing Needles and Shattering Spree seem almost obvious inclusions.
BTW, I think stitch in time is clearly inferior to other choices. i would rather use Deep Anals, AKs or Intuitions over it.
Daze is a great card in a fast combo deck when you need to protect something turn one or two. This deck is not its milieu. Four Daze are excessive. Even Mana Leak or  -gasp- disrupting shoal might be better.

I like the idea though and I think it  merits some in depth testing and more discussion. Another alternative to your approach would be adding a lot of burn as bolts and chains hit for five ( at least - more if two nauts are out). Not sure which approach is better but bolt bolt attack seems pretty strong for only a two mana investment. As good as Lavamancer is it will not do the same quick damage.

[cssamerican]

Lava Dart doesn't have as much synergy as people are making it out to have either. Sacrificing a mountain to us its flashback makes it harder to cast spells in future turns. So, it only seems good if your trying to kill in one turn, and I don't think the mechanic will allow that with any type of consistency. Things like Lightning Bolt actually seem really solid because it is 3 damage that may also result in an additional 2 damage with a Dragonaut and 1 damage with a Lavamancer. That is potentially 6 damage for without any drawbacks.

Let's compare the two:

-Dart is better against Welders.
-Bolt with 1 Dragonaut is better.
-Dart with 2 Dragonauts is a LOT better.
-Bolt is better when shooting at the dome without a Dragonaut in play.
-Bolt is better at shooting down bigger creatures than 2/2. It's just that there aren't any that apply for that; DSC and Akroma won't die anyways.

I'm still convinced that Lava Dart is better.

I am still not sold that Lava Dart is better than Lightning Bolt because sacrificing a mountain is awful in deck that wants to cast lots of spells. That is a huge drawback in my opinion.

Have you considered fling? I've actually had a few situations recently with aggro/control decks where I needed to fling because I could not attack for damage. Plus it would pump wouldn't it?

Sacrificing the creature is part of the cost, so I don't think you will get the additional two damage.

[Khahan]

Have you considered fling? I've actually had a few situations recently with aggro/control decks where I needed to fling because I could not attack for damage. Plus it would pump wouldn't it?

Not only will the fling not pump the weemen, but it will not even trigger the Wee ones.

You sac the dragonauts as part of the cost. By the time you complete 'playing the spell' which is the trigger condition for fling, the dragonauts are not in play to trigger.

[zeus-online]

.

[Kasuras]

Where's frantic search? That card rocks with Dragonauts

I dont think the deck will ever be any good for T1 play though.
You need a way to play 10 spells in a turn to kill him, or 5 spells and a berserk or fling.
2 Sensei's divining top and a helm of awekening could do the trick (eventhough you're probably better off playing sensei, sensei then...)

Eh, you do realize that I don't have to kill him in 1 turn?

Currently testing Lightning Bolts in place of the Stitch in Times, not too great though. Think I'd rather have another cantrip effect. I need something against Oath, don't know what though..

Also testing a version with black for Duress and, of course, Yawgmoth's Will.

[lordmayhem]

(twincast puts a copy on the stack and putting copies on the stack don't trigger dragonauts).

AAAAAAAAAAAA Same mistake twice Thanks for pointing that out Khahan.

You need a way to play 10 spells in a turn to kill him, or 5 spells and a berserk or fling.

Or play burn, thus reducing the number of spells needed to turn it into a killer.

[Jacob Orlove]

Think I'd rather have another cantrip effect.

Peek, Serum Visions, Opt, and Sleight of Hand are all much better options for U cantrips.

SB Goblin Bombardment would be pretty good against Oath, especially if you run a burn-heavy list anyway.