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Author Topic: Better stax- Uba or 5c  (Read 2384 times)
The Chosen One
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Bruenor71176 joe_tank76@yahoo.com
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« on: January 23, 2006, 09:27:48 am »

Hey everyone. Im am always trying to play new styles of decks and I have started playing 5 color stax. It's a bit of a style change for me and I am just looking for opinions on what experienced players consider to be the stronger, Ubastax or 5 color.  Unfortunately, I am time constrained at the moment I am typing this, but I will post my 5 color deck as soon as I can for comments...

Thanks-
Bruenor

Ok here is my 5 color Stax

1 Tolarian Academy
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
1 Barbarian ring
1 God's Eye, Gate to the Rekai
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
5 Moxen
1 Lotus
1 Sol ring
1 Mana crypt
1 Mana vault

4 Smokestack
4 Goblin welder
3 Crucible of worlds
1 fastbond
1 crop rotation
1 balance
1 demonic tutor
1 Karn, silver golem
1 Triskelion
1 Sundering Titan
3 Sphere of resistance
1 Sculpting steel
1 Zuran orb
2 Gorilla shaman
4 Chalice of the void
1 Trinisphere
1 Tinker

 immediate changes made:
-1 zuran orb
-1 god's eye
-1 sculpting steel
-1 fastbond(this may work it's way back in)
+1 crucible of worlds
+2 Swords to plowshares
+ 1 sphere of resistance

Changes I am thinking of making( realizing yesterday after playing food chain, blood moon kicks me in the nuts), to add more stalling power to the deck-
-4 chalice of the void
-1 goblin welder
+3 tangle wire
+1 enlightened tutor
+1 fastbond

chalice is nice, but very eatable with mox monkey etc. etc. If the lower set of cahnges is made my side board would  be changed to the following:
2 viashino heretic
2 sacred ground
2 rack and ruin
2 tormod's crypt
2 hurkyl's recall
3 chalice of the void
2 in the eye of chaos

I would greatly appreciate comments on the "best" route to take with my changes. I am trying to get this list optimal by this saturday....
« Last Edit: January 25, 2006, 09:27:27 am by Bruenor » Logged

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vroman
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« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2006, 12:53:30 pm »

fastbond is only good w crucible. play 4x crucible, or cut fbond. zuran orb is pretty weak, but certainly only worth running w 4xcrucible. gate to rekai sucks. it only does its job w active smoky. its not a very efficient mana source to actually cast smoky. definitely cuttable. this should be a colored source or an ancient tomb. sculpting steel is fairly pointless and a potential dead draw. this can easily become 4th resistor.
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The Chosen One
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Bruenor71176 joe_tank76@yahoo.com
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« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2006, 02:10:59 pm »

fastbond is only good w crucible. play 4x crucible, or cut fbond. zuran orb is pretty weak, but certainly only worth running w 4xcrucible. gate to rekai sucks. it only does its job w active smoky. its not a very efficient mana source to actually cast smoky. definitely cuttable. this should be a colored source or an ancient tomb. sculpting steel is fairly pointless and a potential dead draw. this can easily become 4th resistor.

I need to get my hands on an additional crucible(which I plan on doing) to run 4. Sculpting steel was kind of a nice way to copy a darksteel colossus, I'm not sure if I want to cut this or not. God's eye gives an extra permanent to sac to stack, which I like. The orb was in there as a sac outlet for the god's eye and to sac/replay lands with a crucible in play. Also. Fastbond-zuran orb-crucible-god's eye= win.

I know you played bazaar stax vroman, what are your thoughts on uba vs. 5 color?
what kind of mindset do you need to play stax properly? I am traditionally more of an aggro player, but I want to try a prison style deck like this to broaden my horizons..

Also my sideboard which I forgot earlier:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Viashino Heretic
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Sacred Ground
3 Null rod

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« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2006, 05:43:18 pm »

From what I have seen, Uba seems to be a more complicated deck then 5c because if you have noticed not very many people have ventured out into it and have done extraordinary well except for Vroman who seems to win all the time.  Uba also happens to be the most expensive deck to play with the maximun amount of proxies (that is unless you own Bazaars, Shops, and Mox/Lotus).

I also question the lack of Vampiric Tutor, Swords to Plowshares, and Ancestral Recall.  Vampiric Tutor is just amazing and I don't see how it can be left out of the deck since you already have access to all 5 colors.  Swords to Plowshares is a much better Colossus remover then sculpting steel, as it gets it out of the game for good and nothing to worry about.  Ancestral Recall I can only see you not playing because you seem to be at 10 proxies exactly and you don't want to go out and invest some $150 at least for a Workshop, because card advantage is very good and you have 11 sources of blue in the MD.
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The Chosen One
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« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2006, 05:21:33 am »



I also question the lack of Vampiric Tutor-  Ancestral Recall I can only see you not playing because you seem to be at 10 proxies exactly and you don't want to go out and invest some $150 at least for a Workshop, because card advantage is very good and you have 11 sources of blue in the MD.

Vampiric tutor and recall are both not included exactly for that reason, the 5 mox, lotus and bazaars are my ten proxies. I am trying to hunt for a vampiric tuutor before this weekend so I can play this at Waterbury... As far as the stp I really should run a few I suppose, but for the 2(3?) slots they would take, I'm undecided what to remove. Playing this deck as is can have ridiculous opening hands that drop crucible, sphere,chalice for zero followed by a turn 2 smokestack--that's game.  I'm not sure if I want the stp's in there they can be a dead draw and I would hate drawing them instead of a lock piece when not needed...

sorry not bazaars- workshops are proxied..
Also I am thinking of getting 3 tangle wires into the maindeck and the 4th sphere instead of the sculpting steel.Also suppresion field shows promise as a 3 of in the deck/sideboard
« Last Edit: January 24, 2006, 02:05:57 pm by Bruenor » Logged

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Evenpence
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« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2006, 12:36:25 am »

Differences between Ubastax and 5c Stax, completely shortened/summarized:

Ubastax - EXTREMELY Offensive
5c Stax - Defensive

Ubastax - Absolutely needs a HARD LOCK to win
5c Stax - Gameplan is to not go for hard lock early, but soft lock with spheres, then move into hard lock, or fatties.

Ubastax - Bazaar Draw Engine (actual card draw with Uba, cheap, abuseable)
5c Stax - Tutors and/or Thirst (card selection, not necessarily actual card draw, also abuseable)

Ubastax - No One-Shot Bombs
5c Stax - Tons of One-Shot Bombs

Ubastax - Runs alot of locks.  ALOT of locks.
5c Stax - Runs a little more than half of the locks that Ubastax does.

Ubastax - Dependant on Lands (moreso than Artifact Mana) for Mana
5c Stax - Dependant on Colored Moxes

EDIT:
Ubastax - Because of being dependant on Lands, is also very dependant upon Crucible against decks that pack LD.
5c Stax - Not as dependant on Crucible against decks that pack LD, because it has targetted removal.
/end edit

Ubastax - Doesn't need Workshop if Bazaar/Welder are out.  If both aren't, is VERY dependant on workshop/academy.
5c Stax - Is not dependant on Workshop (you can always just tutor or crop an academy up if you need mana)

Ubastax - Very dependant on itself.  (Welder/Bazaar, Welder/Uba, Welder/Duplicant, Welder/Stax, Bazaar/Uba, etc.)
5c Stax - Not very dependant on itself.

Ubastax - Welder is EXTREMELY ABUSED, and therefore very key to the deck.  (see above)
5c Stax - Welder is not as key, can even go down to 3.

Ubastax - Very hard for most people to learn how to play (it plays differently than every Vintage Deck).  Harder to master.
5c Stax - Very easy to learn to play.  Hard to master.

Ubastax vs. 5c Stax - Ubastax has an advantage because of the increased number of crucibles, as well as locks which matter in the stax matchup.  Welder abuse is particularly abuseable, as well as 2 monkey and Null Rod (deny colored mana sources).  Chalice for 1 kills 5c Stax.  Duplicant is a problem for 5c Stax because it takes out welders/viashino heretic/fatties.  Trisk and Karn do nothing under Null Rod except get taken out by Welder/Duplicant, etc.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2006, 05:05:56 pm by Evenpence » Logged

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[17:25] Desolutionist: i hope they reprint empty the warrens as a purple card in planar chaos
benthetenor
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« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2006, 03:52:03 pm »

Best deck? Objectively, it's gotta be Uba Stax. It doesn't have to (and thus, doesn't) rely on restricted cards to draw power from, it has more synergies that can be exploited, and it's much more aggressive than 5c Stax. But for you, as you're already straining your proxy count with 5c, trying to build Uba Stax is probably impossible.
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« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2006, 05:14:18 pm »

What Benthetenor is rightly referring to is the fact that 5c Stax uses bombs not as offensive locks (such as casting balance to achieve total dominance over the board), but as defensive answers.

Balance, for instance, is an ANSWER to aggro/permanent based decks, not USUALLY a way of gaining advantage to win - MOSTLY just to dig yourself out of a hole.  However, it can just be used to go broken on your opponent and dominate when it comes to lands, creatures, or cards in hand (which is used much more often, especially when playing against control).

The duality of the card makes it unbelievable, which is what 5c Stax is, a duality between an offensive mentality and defensive cards.

The tutors are there to find bombs like Balance, etc.

Objectively speaking, Ubastax has a much stronger plan.  It's plan is to proactively disrupt to the point where Ubastax cannot possibly lose.  5c Stax's objective is to proactively disrupt to play cards so that 5c Stax can win.  Because of the tutors, you can always find the cards you need to level the playing field and begin to cheat casting costs with welder or play smokestack and win.  Ubastax makes Bazaar the chief of the deck, and tries to get as many locks into play as soon as possible with it so that it can play smokestack and win with welder beats.

Balance is the perfect card to describe 5c's mentality, and Bazaar is the perfect card to describe Ubastax's mentality.

Balance - let opponent build up, tear him down, win before he can build up again.  Or just win with smokestack.
Bazaar - throw crap out as quick as possible, abuse welder.  Or just win with smokestack.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2006, 02:09:00 am by Evenpence » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2006, 01:33:58 am »


Also my sideboard which I forgot earlier:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Viashino Heretic
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Sacred Ground
3 Null rod

I dont think you run sacred ground in your board for this deck
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« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2006, 12:59:27 am »

Balance, for instance, is an ANSWER to aggro/permanent based decks, not a way of gaining advantage to win - just to dig yourself out of a hole.

I can't let this pass.

While Balance does function to pull one's self out of a hole, that doesn't change the fact that Balance is the single most aggressive card in the history of the game.

It is this duality that makes it the best card in the deck.

I don't think you're wrong in your assessment of tutors and bombs in 5c Stax, but you've got Balance all wrong.  If you're only using Balance as defense, you'll still screwing with a condom on.
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Evenpence
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« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2006, 01:41:16 am »

Balance is used more as a defensive answer in 5c Stax than an offensive board clearer.  I'm sorry if you disagree.  The object isn't to win with Balance, the object is to achieve a lock long enough to win, and Balance helps with that perhaps more than any other card in 5c Stax.

EDIT:  But you're right, it is the best card in the deck because of the duality of it's nature in being both offensive and defensive simultaneously.  I see it more as a defensive card in 5c Stax, however, because it's used more like that.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2006, 02:10:12 am by Evenpence » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2006, 01:55:29 am »

Balance is used more as a defensive answer in 5c Stax than an offensive board clearer.  I'm sorry if you disagree.  The object isn't to win with Balance, the object is to achieve a lock long enough to win, and Balance helps with that perhaps more than any other card in 5c Stax.

Umm, I think Kevin might know what he's talking about.... Besides, Balance (when played correctly) has never, ever been a defensive card. Dropping your hand full of artifacts and completely decimating their hand/board is ridiculous, and 5c Stax may be deck in the best position to abuse this strategy. That's like calling Mind Twist a defensive card.
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« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2006, 01:59:20 am »

I think we're talking about different things.  That is, Kevin and myself and you and myself.

I don't think Balance and Mind Twist can really be compared to each other.

Mind Twist is completely offensive, it seeks to kill your opponent's hand.  Balance does the same thing when you need to.  If you have board advantage and he has five or six cards in his hand, and you play Balance when you have zero, obviously you use it offensively.

I was just saying that it was used more defensively than offensively, and more to get yourself out of a hole then to dominate the game.  I see it more of an answer against aggro and other such things than Mind Twist, for instance, and I think most 5c Stax players would agree with me.  Balance can be offensive, don't get me wrong, but I don't see it used that way most of the time.

EDIT:  I'm going to edit my previous post, because that post really isn't right.

When you say that Balance is always used as an aggressive card, I think you and I might be talking about something completely different.  For instance:

Let's say your opponent has six creatures, and you have none.  You play Balance.
You would probably say this is defensive.

How is this any different from saying that your opponent has six cards in hand, and you have none, and you play Balance?
You would probably call that offensive.

I'm saying both are defensive because you're seeking to achieve a soft lock and get into beaters and then win the game.  The object isn't to simply constrain your opponent to the point of death.  Ubastax doesn't have board-sweeping (or hand-sweeping) defensive cards.

I don't agree with what I wrote though, I must have meant to added more or say something differently.  Of course it's not used solely as a defensive card.  Thanks for pointing that out, Kevin.

DOUBLE EDIT:  Okay, I edited it so I don't look like an ass anymore.  Thanks for pointing that out, guys.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2006, 02:19:38 am by Evenpence » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2006, 04:12:02 pm »

Sorry. Balance is very flexible. My point is that if you're using simply as a Wrath of God, instead of maximizing each of the three ridiculous effects, then you're using it defensively and terribly. Even in the situation where you use it primarily as a two mana Wrath, you should be using it to Armageddon them or to Mind Twist them, also. And neither of those spells are defensive. 1/3 defensive isn't very defensive.

Or what if you're using the Wrath effect to take out Goblin Welders? That's not a defensive use, as it's not the Welder himself that will kill you. You're using it offensively to prevent the robots from coming forth. If you wait until the robots are in play, when you're in tremendous danger of dying otherwise, then it's defensive.

I don't blame you if you have to use the card one third at a time. It's the most skill-testing card in the history of the game. But you should never view it as doing only one third of it's intended effects.
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« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2006, 10:21:04 pm »

I'm gonna have to agree.

Sorry for writing what I did and causing this much discussion.  I'm also glad I don't play with Balance as I would most likely not play it right.
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[17:25] Desolutionist: i hope they reprint empty the warrens as a purple card in planar chaos
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