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Author Topic: [Free Article]Dredge on you Crazy Diamond - A look at the mechanic in T1  (Read 5829 times)
Lunar
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« on: January 23, 2006, 10:10:50 pm »

For the article go to: http://mtgsalvation.com/article/254/dredge-on-you-crazy-diamond-a-look-at-the-mechanic-in-vintage/

Dredge has slowly begun to creep into the format with Darkblast and Life from the Loam making appearances in several different decks. Can dredge continue to apply pressure to the format and break through with a deck built around the mechanic?

This article takes a quick look at several different archytypes that might be the basis of something juicy for us to abuse.

With the ability to bypass much of Stax's game plan, and the speed and strong disruption several of these decks feature to combat the rest of the field, Dredge based decks have the ability to suceed in a number of metas around the globe.

Enjoy!

EDIT: As a side note, after writing this article, a Cerebral Assasin list running Life from the Loam and an Ichorid deck both won 30-50 person tournaments...things look hopeful.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2006, 12:25:49 am by Lunar » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2006, 10:56:22 pm »

Very nice article.  I am anxious to see if Dredge can make an impact in Type 1.  You listed a few different ways to run with the mechanic and all look to have some promise.  As long as some people don't just dismiss the decks because they are rough, the mechanic has potential to become a contender.  With further refining, I'd expect Dredge decks to make appearances at future events.
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« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2006, 03:16:23 am »

Wow. That Hermit deck is terrible.

Fine article analzying the dredge mechanic and attributes, but those lists made me laugh.
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« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2006, 11:14:59 am »

Beleive me, at the time of writing the article there were precious few lists to work with...While I think there is a lot of POTENTIAL in the lists (or at least the ideas behind the lists) the lists werent really meant 100% for taking to a large event right away...Even after the two lists with dredge cards that ive seen win stuff would BOTH be called janky lists and I wouldnt even call them optimal.

MoxLotus hit it with this:

Quote
As long as some people don't just dismiss the decks because they are rough

I fully expected a lot of players to simply dismiss the idea entirely anyways (even state it in the article) but these outline decks might just provide somebody with the basis of a legitimate build to play with.

Thanks though guys for saying the article was good, heh...regardless of the uber competitivness of the deck lists. (although the bonus deck list has won multiple pieces of power in Europe heh...)
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« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2006, 06:51:28 pm »

That was a very enjoying informative read for me.  I really like the Bazaar-a-Tog decklist and the Bazaar Madness.  What really was interesting though was the inclusion of Hermit Druid in the Friggorid deck, my friend built a deck like this but for Legacy and it seems very similar except for a few obvious differentials.  I really think that the Hermit Druid could make the Friggorid decks a threat.  I hope other people expand on these ideas, they seem fun to play.

I don have one question though, Why is there a Darksteel Colossus in the Hermitorid decklist?
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« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2006, 07:11:52 pm »

The DSC in the Hermit-friggorid deck is so you dont deck yourself after dropping your library into the yard with druid.  Personally, I dont think Hermit Druid does anywhere near enough to warrant inclusion in type 1 friggorid when you can just mill your entire library by turn 3 using draw effects anyway.  Friggorid in type 1 is a really fascinating deck since its theoretically an absolute nightmare for stax.  A deck that never needs to maintain perms in play or cast a spell is theoretically great.  Its not that easy in practice though.
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« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2006, 09:55:57 pm »

I've played against Type 1 Friggorid with Ubastax before, it's not as hard as you think.

Game one is theirs unless you can get out trinisphere/crucible/waste, but games 2 and 3 are easy with Tormod's Crypt.
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« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2006, 10:04:18 pm »

well if your ichorid opponent is inept and isnt bringing in pithing needles and null rods to stop you from doing that...then sure...the 2nd and 3rd games are easy...
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« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2006, 10:07:46 pm »

well if your ichorid opponent is inept and isnt bringing in pithing needles and null rods to stop you from doing that...then sure...the 2nd and 3rd games are easy...
That's where Smokestack and no permanents on the board comes into play...
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« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2006, 10:13:27 pm »

I've played against Type 1 Friggorid with Ubastax before, it's not as hard as you think.

Game one is theirs unless you can get out trinisphere/crucible/waste, but games 2 and 3 are easy with Tormod's Crypt.

Trinisphere and Crucible/Waste do absolutely nothing.  If those cards actually affected the friggorid deck then they had an absolutely horrible list.  The deck literally never has to play a permanent or cast a spell if it doesnt want to.  Uba Stax is seriously the decks easiest matchup since it has no clock whatsoever.  I've won games where I did nothing except discard a Grave-troll and dredge for the next 8 turns. 

But yeah, Tormods Crypt is a serious beating and the deck has major major issues in sideboarded games.

EDIT:  Null Rod and Pithing Needle are also pretty worthless against decks running Welder when your entire plan is to put your library in the yard ASAP.
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« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2006, 12:27:13 pm »

darksteel colossus is idiotic. its a strictly dead card w no tinker in the deck. play krosan reclamation. that way you can atleast use it as yard hate if necesary.
dredge is huge mechanic for vintage. grave troll sucks though. Id rather play 4xloam / 4x dblast / 0xgravetroll. loam and dblast have actual utility uses, not just a beater.
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« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2006, 12:48:10 pm »

The way I understand it Robert, the DSC is meant to accelerate the kill with Hermit Druid...unless you can get into 1BBBG consistantly on turn 3, then krosan reclamation is supposedly inferior to DSC here...you need the mana to bring in the creatures...maybe Stephane will chime in at some point here, but I think speed was a big issue for him so losing a turn of speed to replay KR might have been turning up bad for them...KR getting countered can cause problems here as well.

Now dont get me wrong...I am not saying this hermit list is the best...its just a new way to approach the deck...it may well be that reclamation is better, but I wanted to explain why its supposed to be there, which is simply mana on turn 3...

Grave-troll and Stinkweed Imp are meant 99.9% for digging deeper/faster to fill up the yard with stuff like the ichorids to get them active sooner...If it means that I get utility out of darkblast for a turn, but it takes me twice as long to get my gameplan going then thats not super hot...the question shouldnt really be which type of dredge is better here...it should be "does an Ichorid gameplan (regardless of list) have a chance in Vintage?" I think the troll or imp (imp is better here since it is black) are important to the ichorid plan, whether imp or troll belong in the other lists im not sure...

Quote
That's where Smokestack and no permanents on the board comes into play...

Where does it say that you CANT have permanents in play...the reason the decks do well against stax are because they dont have to have any, but they certainly can and do pile up permanents at times..

Quote
Null Rod and Pithing Needle are also pretty worthless against decks running Welder when your entire plan is to put your library in the yard ASAP.

Its still not too terribly rough to get one of these in play...you also get to have welder hate as well, so its not like its an auto scoop...heh...null rod and pithing needle dont need to stick around for ever, just long enough to hold off a crypt for 1 turn...needle also shuts off the annoying welder that you guys mentioned...

But once again, heh...not 100% perfect lists, just something to get you guys thinking/talking about this stuff, since nobody was talking about it openly before. The other thing that must be taken into consideration at least on the Ichorid list is that this is built specifically with the French and overall European meta in mind. I have been making an effort at studying the Euro meta more lately and I still dont get why they make some choices they do (or why decks like Bazaar Madness can thrive there but not here, even when my teams testing shows that a properly tuned Bazaar Madness deck is pretty hot).
« Last Edit: January 26, 2006, 02:37:13 pm by Lunar » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2006, 12:58:52 pm »

The DSC is meant to help you not deck when you activate the Druid.  You don't want to draw with no library the next turn, obviously.  While cute, the Ichoridruid deck is just too slow.  3 Turn combos that literally crumble to any kind of graveyard hate are...not good.  However, it does have the uncounterability factor that is a huge bonus.  And it does seem to dodge the Stax gameplan altogether.
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« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2006, 05:38:51 am »

I love people who are talking about this deck without testing it, it's so crazy to see that.

I just want to congratulate some stupid people that prefer krosian raclamation to DColossus in this deck.  Have you ever think what is the situation if you play krosian at your upkeep and your opponent force or drain it??? Dcolossus have not this problem.


Hermitorid is strong because you can win without play spell, and that is very very strong. Versus uba stax, you can't lose the first one and after side, with drakblast+pithing needle+null rod, the mathcup is less easy but also good. Versus gift, this is also very easy, too much discard, and DColossus in play is alone versus 10 3/1 and 1/1.

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Trinisphere and Crucible/Waste do absolutely nothing.
Crucible+waste is maybe the only good weapon in stax against this deck.

This is always the same people who are flambing a list or a deck and who will congratulate this same deck, two month later because an american will do a top 8 with it.
Thank you for your wondeful analyse Vegeta, i think you are the new star of Magic;)
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« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2006, 05:50:13 am »

I love people who are talking about this deck without testing it, it's so crazy to see that.

I just want to congratulate some stupid people that prefer krosian raclamation to DColossus in this deck.  Have you ever think what is the situation if you play krosian at your upkeep and your opponent force or drain it??? Dcolossus have not this problem.
Stichadou, I would lighten up a little on your personal attacks. Sure, the comment about dismissing the DC and suggesting KR isn´t Vromans best post, but at the moment you start calling multiple lotus winners and highly valued TMD member stupid, is when you get into trouble.
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« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2006, 06:21:25 am »

I'ma also a  multiple lotus winner but me i test the deck and i'm sorry but i can read what some people are witting about my list.

Vroman is maybe a good player, maybe vegeta too :lol: :lol: but they are flaming some thing they didn't test. They also use this vocabulary:
idiotic
terrible
those lists made me laugh

sorry fot wanting defending my deck and my choice against people who attack me.
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« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2006, 10:45:39 am »

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We've even seen several big flops in Suppression Field and Flame Fusillade.
I totally agree with you analysis of Suppression Field but Flame Fusillade has become a popular kill in Gifts.

In the Tog list are the 6 instant speed discard outlets enough to make Circular Logic good?

The Hermitorid list is the one I actually think is the most immune to things going wrong. All Crypt does is slow the deck down until it finds an answer because your opponent can't play Crypt in response to you activating the Hermit Druid on his end step (Which is the only time you will ever do it). Darksteel Colossus makes perfect sense because it avoids counterspell and Coffin Purge plus Krosan Reclamation really isn't needed. My question to the creator would be, why not run Tinker?

I am curious as to why [card]Watery Grave[/card] was used in the Dragon list? The comes into play tapped seems horrible for this deck, am I missing something?
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« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2006, 11:02:21 am »

Quote
Crucible+waste is maybe the only good weapon in stax against this deck.

This is always the same people who are flambing a list or a deck and who will congratulate this same deck, two month later because an american will do a top 8 with it.
Thank you for your wondeful analyse Vegeta, i think you are the new star of Magic;)


Apparently Chalice for 2 doesn't force you to win with Imp and Ichorid beats since you have no way to remove it.

Troll is necessary in the Tog list because it puts huge numbers of cards into the graveyard which Darkblast and Loam doesn't do.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2006, 11:06:04 am by Moxlotus » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2006, 11:14:19 am »

In the Tog list are the 6 instant speed discard outlets enough to make Circular Logic good?

So far it's the only other castable counterspell early on.  I haven't had it stranded in my hand that often.  

Drain doesn't seem that realistic because of Bazaar taking up an early land drop.  I tried Misdirection, but often times I would toss my whole hand away and have not much to show for it.  I have not tested Mana Leak, but without a Mox it's still not castable until turn 3.  
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« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2006, 11:20:42 am »

Quote
My question to the creator would be, why not run Tinker?
Some slots can change. For the moment, i play tinker instead of something, i don't remember.
There are some slots not really sure:
-wonder
-tinker
-lotus petal
-brainstorm
-lefe from the loam
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« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2006, 11:46:41 am »

@ccsamerican...

Fussilade HAS broken through on occasion, but my reference is to the fact that this combo was called the best two card combo ever and that simply hasnt held up overall yet...it certainly has potential..and could become very solid in the long run...but for now I believe decks like gifts have two better kills in tinker/dsc and burning wish/tendrils...

I have tested the tog deck to death and I really find it solid (at least after some tweaking) Circular logic is an amazing 2nd and on turn counter for this deck, it gets online here as fast as Mana Drain does in other decks and makes bazaar work well..Ive tried mana leak (instead of Duress,which I feel leaves the mana base weak if you need to fetch an early underground) and its okay, but I like MidD in the duress spots along with CL and FoW

@ Stephane...heh, was wondering when youd show up, heh...any thoughts though on running Krosan Reclamation AND DSC? this could let you get back something important when you are outside of the hermit combo...just an idea, and not one ive tested, but maybe you could combine your and vroman's thoughts...




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« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2006, 02:21:33 pm »

The way I understand it Robert, the DSC is meant to accelerate the kill with Hermit Druid...unless you can get into 1BBBG consistantly on turn 3, then krosan reclamation is supposedly inferior to DSC here...you need the mana to bring in the creatures...

If you play 2 Dark Rituals, you can bring them back in with Krosan Reclamation, draw one, and only need 1BG for all of your creatures.

So far that's what I'm testing, and it works out nicely.
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« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2006, 02:32:45 pm »

This seems reasonable, but it still doesnt dodge counters like DSC does...the uncounterability is a factor. Goldfishing would definatly show a number of viable options for the combo if you choose to run the druid combo, but im unsure of whether anything outside of DSC is the best overall...

Still I can see both options being included possibly...much testing needs to be done still...I think if Tinker is in the deck, then KR wouldnt be a bad option so you can get tinker and probably will back into the library to go again...

@ ccsamerican...I just re-read one of your posts and noticed a question on watery grave....honostly I cant say I know why the guy went that way..you could probably ask in the dredge combo thread in the improovement section, heh...that was the only dragon list with heavy dredge I could find and didnt want to speculate there with my own build, heh...I think grave is bad due to it coming into play tapped during the dragon loop...but like I said, its just an experimental build to work off and maybe inspire people..
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« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2006, 02:37:11 pm »

Quote from: stichadou
I love people who are talking about this deck without testing it, it's so crazy to see that.

Then allow me to chime in since I've tested Ichorid fairly extensively and found it lacking, especially the Hermit Druid lists.

Quote
Crucible+waste is maybe the only good weapon in stax against this deck.

Thats because you're not playing basics, which is a bad decision especially if you're using Ashen Ghoul which you imply above.  It is also more effective against your build since you depend more heavily upon Hermit Druid which actually does require you to have mana and cast spells.  The Druid plan opens you up to more hate while not giving any sort of significant speed or resiliency increase.

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I totally agree with you analysis of Suppression Field but Flame Fusillade has become a popular kill in Gifts.

Popular =/= Good

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The Hermitorid list is the one I actually think is the most immune to things going wrong. All Crypt does is slow the deck down until it finds an answer because your opponent can't play Crypt in response to you activating the Hermit Druid on his end step

Im not sure I understand what you're saying here.  They can just use the Crypt after the Druids ability resolves or even just in response to all the Ichorid triggers during your upkeep.  Crypt doesnt just slow the deck down, it absolutely wrecks it by toasting all your win conditions.

Quote from: moxlotus
Apparently Chalice for 2 doesn't force you to win with Imp and Ichorid beats since you have no way to remove it.

The Hermitorid list that I saw had Bazaars and Careful Studys as an alternative gameplan.  However, it also only had the 4 Imps for dredge which is slow as fuck.

The friggorid concept fails in type 1 for a few reasons.  The biggest one being that it is just too damn slow.  You take up so much deck space w/ dredge that cant afford to run enough effective disruption to slow other decks down and they can just goldfish over you.  Slaver gets Pentavus and you cry.  Stax gets Karn and races you.  Gifts just goldfishes and wins.  Furthermore, given the decks desire to replace its draws with dredge, you cant really build an effective manabase to use to fight the hate.  Postboard you have too many cards to answer, and not enough mana or turns to do it in.


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« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2006, 03:24:03 pm »

I'ma also a  multiple lotus winner but me i test the deck and i'm sorry but i can read what some people are witting about my list.

Vroman is maybe a good player, maybe vegeta too :lol: :lol: but they are flaming some thing they didn't test. They also use this vocabulary:
idiotic
terrible
those lists made me laugh

sorry fot wanting defending my deck and my choice against people who attack me.

Here I'll help you out on why the archetype doesn't work in it's current form. Since I actually play Extended I know why it worked there.

Problem #1: Your kill, at it's fastest, is on turn 3. The best you can do is turn 1 Hermit, turn 2 activate, turn 3 swing for a lot. Turn 3 is not fast. In addition, you don't kill on turn 3 if they nuke your black source since you can't bring back Ashen Ghoul and hence you'll only be swinging for 16 or 17 points of damage. So what you have is a Draco-Explosion deck if the opponent has any sort of mana denial. Or at best you have a kill on par with TPS.

Problem #2: You rely entirely on the graveyard. This plan gets much worse when Tormod's Crypt is available. It trumps Hermit and can ruin most of your deck by taking care of a few of your dredge cards.

Problem #3 and 4: Hermit itself is very vunerable. Your 'solution' which I use very loosely here, is to make them discard. This doesn't stop Lava Dart or Darkblast from trashing you. In addition when the majority of decks run 4 Brainstorm, Therapy and Duress both become iffy. In fact your disruption engine isn't even that good. At best you hit my card-drawing and slow me down to your level until I draw more and at worst you make me discard a card I don't care about.

Problem #5: If Hermit doesn't resolve your left with 4 major dredge cards instead of 8-10 and 4 Bazaar for your deck to effectively function. In addition you cut the best creature in the deck which facilitates turn 3 kills (tog) and Deep Analysis which is one of the best drawing tools available to you.

Problem #6: Your mana base is a pile. 12 lands and no basics. This is more or less a recipe for complete disaster.

At best you'll catch some people off-guard with the deck who aren't used to the strategy. After that your deck becomes a weak and ineffective aggro-combo deck that can be hated out worse than normal aggro.

Between Godot's response and my own, do you understand why I have a major question about the viability of the deck?

Oh and I love how you get all hot and bothered by me saying your list is a joke and then turn around and start making claims of what I have and haven't tested. Props to you, oh multiple lotus winner.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2006, 03:28:27 pm by Vegeta2711 » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2006, 03:41:11 pm »

flames from both parties aside...that was a much better post veg...posting that the first time might have solved some problems...heh..

I am simply glad there are people talking about things in here though, which I consider a step in the right direction from nobody talking about things outside of the middle of one thread not about dredge on SCG and a kinda poor thread on dredge combo in the improvement forums here...

I use the lists there as a basis for discussion and as inspiration for somebody to come up with what hopefully becomes a viable list that people can agree on in the future (well, at least agree upon as much as might be possible with the players here, heh)

Now...Ichorid aside, how about the other lists, heh....dredge exists elsewhere I suppose too!
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« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2006, 06:42:16 pm »

Quote from: cssamerican
The Hermitorid list is the one I actually think is the most immune to things going wrong. All Crypt does is slow the deck down until it finds an answer because your opponent can't play Crypt in response to you activating the Hermit Druid on his end step

Im not sure I understand what you're saying here.  They can just use the Crypt after the Druids ability resolves or even just in response to all the Ichorid triggers during your upkeep.  Crypt doesnt just slow the deck down, it absolutely wrecks it by toasting all your win conditions.
You can't play a Crypt at instant speed (Welding aside). Play and Activate are two different things. Obviously you would be an idiot to use the Druid with a Crypt on the board. All I was saying is you can't get caught off guard, if a crypts on the board you can wait until you remove it before going all in with the druid.
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