U/R Fish, a dying breed?

[The Chosen One]

Hi everyone, it's time to yet again discuss one of everyone's favorite(or most hated) decks. I am fairly new to playing vintage and I am becoming quite comfortable weilding this creation that I will post below.. Questions I have for you super intelligent fun loving folks out there:

1. U/R does not seem to have what it takes to top8 too much anymore, Why?

2. Best color combinations? U/W, U/G?

3. Cards that need consideration to be added to fish to handle modern decks?

And I am sure there are more questions that need answering as well, but we will leave disussion to open those doors...

Here is my build

Creatures: (14)
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Rootwater Thief

Draw:(8)
4 Standstill
4 Curiosity

Counter/Disruption:(8)
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
1 Misdirection
1 Stifle

Artifacts:(6)
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Null Rod

Mana:(23)
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
3 Island

Sideboard:
2 Stifle
1 Misdirection
2 Viashino Heretic
2 Fire/Ice
1 Null Rod
2 Lava Dart
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blue Elemental Blast

OK, first off, before anyone says anything, I have no P9. BUT, If I were to add power(say for a proxy tournament), what should I remove? I  have played U/W, and U/G fish also, but my own playing style seems to lean me towards playing U/R...

One big problem that this deck cannot handle is a resolved tinker for a DSC. I have no removal for that big assed S.O.B. (except yanking him from their deck with a thief). This is one of white's obvious strong points. White gives us meddling mage, swords to plowshares etc... Is a tri-colored fish deck say U/W/R feasible with all the maindecked non basic hate out there? What kind of mana base would be best suited for such a deck?

Everyone, please add their $.02 

[dksxmks]

1. U/R does not seem to have what it takes to top8 too much anymore, Why?

Personally, I love U/R.. but it has trouble handling oath, stax, workshop aggro, dragon and gifts.

2. Best color combinations? U/W, U/G?

They're really metagame dependent. U/W for controlish metas and U/G for workshopish metas. But they can both be tuned to handle both sides of the field quite well.

3. Cards that need consideration to be added to fish to handle modern decks?

Card choices range depending on meta and preference but they're usually hate cards. I play U/W and I prefer workshop and nonbasic hate since they seem to annoy me the most. Cards like Kataki, Energy Flux, or even Annul come to mind.

And I am sure there are more questions that need answering as well, but we will leave disussion to open those doors...

Here is my build

Creatures: (14)
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Rootwater Thief

Draw:(8)
4 Standstill
4 Curiosity

Counter/Disruption:(8)
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
1 Misdirection
1 Stifle

Artifacts:(6)
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Null Rod

Mana:(23)
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
3 Island

Sideboard:
2 Stifle
1 Misdirection
2 Viashino Heretic
2 Fire/Ice
1 Null Rod
2 Lava Dart
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blue Elemental Blast

OK, first off, before anyone says anything, I have no P9. BUT, If I were to add power(say for a proxy tournament), what should I remove? I  have played U/W, and U/G fish also, but my own playing style seems to lean me towards playing U/R...

For U/R you want the standard Mox Sapphire, Ancestral, and TimeWalk. Mox Ruby is optional. It would simply replace your manasources.

-2 Wooded Foothills
-1 Mountain
-1 Island

+1 Ancestral
+1 TimeWalk
+1 Mox Sapphire
+1 Mox Ruby

If you wish to increase your mana count I suggest removing MisD and/or Stifle.

One big problem that this deck cannot handle is a resolved tinker for a DSC. I have no removal for that big assed S.O.B. (except yanking him from their deck with a thief). This is one of white's obvious strong points. White gives us meddling mage, swords to plowshares etc... Is a tri-colored fish deck say U/W/R feasible with all the maindecked non basic hate out there? What kind of mana base would be best suited for such a deck?

I've tried that before. Lavamancers with Mages. But it always seemed like it was trying to go into too many different directions, and with a much more fragile manabase you're pretty likely to get screwed by a couple of key wastes.

[Imsomniac101]

The problem with this list is that it has far too little disruption. You will get run over by most decks. Also you have no way to deal with large creatures, put some Bounce in. I would say UR is feasible if people opened their eyes and stopped playing the traditional lists. Example, Cloud of Faeries is a wasted slot.

[The Chosen One]

cloud is in my opinion a key card here... Play, untap, standstill  :lol:

Plays like that are why I like U/R.

[Beatdown]

you could always run ninja's which come in under the standstill and are a 2 power threat.

[cryolyte]

Why are no fish players playing with gilded drake? I hear that takes care of colossus/oath angels pretty well. Especially if you have an aether vial with two counters on it, but that's a dead deck methinks.

A question I have is: Is it worth running null rod over aether vial/jitte/chalice?

[The Chosen One]

Everyone has their own opinions with chalice/null rod. Anyone care to weigh the differences?

Why I like null rod: Stops: Jitte, moxen, lotus-allows my 5 strips/crucible to deny mana. Also stops Triskelion, jester's cap etc. etc. Harder to kill with a mox monkey

Why I like chalice: I play my mox, you can't play yours. Set at 1=no welder for you.
downside easy to kill with a mox monkey

Why I like aether vial: Tempo tempo tempo, mana fixing, uncounterable creature drops.

[dksxmks]

Why are no fish players playing with gilded drake? I hear that takes care of colossus/oath angels pretty well. Especially if you have an aether vial with two counters on it, but that's a dead deck methinks.

Because Swords + Meddling Mage is just better. But the important thing is tuning Fish to your own style.

A question I have is: Is it worth running null rod over aether vial/jitte/chalice?

I personally think it is. Vial/Jitte/Chalice can take up to 11 slots. That's a lot.. But it also depends on how the deck is built. Cards like Rootwater Thief + Waterfront Bouncer + Voidmage Prodigy is obviously excellent with the Vial configuration; all with a CC of 2 and the mana you save from casting them can be used to bounce, counter, and remove from library. And then you have cards like Kataki, which makes your Vials and Jittes less effective but gets better with Null Rod. Rather than having moxen pay for itself, or unusable, the opponent has to decide if they're going to spend mana to keep unusable moxen around.. (with both the Rod and Kataki in play of course) ..hopefully they wont and end up not being able to Tinker/Colossus. (or at least delay them long enough to get Swords in your hand)

[MoxMonkey]

I think U/r needs to be tuned a lot more to be a hate deck rather than just a deck.  Gilded Drake is great if your going to be playing against Oath/Gifts all day.  Null Rod is house if your going to be playing against CS but Chalice is better against Gifts since it comes down faster.  Waterfront bouncer is great utility to not forget.  Rootwater Thieve steals DSC so you don't worry about it.   I think U/r just needs to be metagamed more and Vial/Chalice I think is better against Stax since it gives you permanents you can sac/tap.

[The Chosen One]

The problem with this list is that it has far too little disruption. You will get run over by most decks. Also you have no way to deal with large creatures, put some Bounce in. I would say UR is feasible if people opened their eyes and stopped playing the traditional lists. Example, Cloud of Faeries is a wasted slot.

With more disruption, you lose slots for threats. I have considered running one rushing river main. maybe echoing truth instead. What do you think is better than cloud of faeries?

Should at least two slots in the sb be energy flux/rack and ruin? I like the heretics in there but maybe other options are better suited

[Fubar]

U/B gives you confident, sui-style disruptions, yawgwin & tutor.  The disrupton of suiblack (land & hand)and the disruption of fish seem harmonious.  Plus the low curve in fish fits perfectly with confident. Having confident could eliminate the need for a crappy enchantment like curiosity.  Black also has no shortage of cheap efficiant weenies.
Not to mention that diabolic edict is the best answer to tinker}collosus I can think of. 
Also the possibility of Planar void is enough to give most modern T1 decks fits. 

[PucktheCat]

There are three things the metagame has added since 'Gay summer' that make Fish harder to win with:

1. Tinker -> DSC:  This was available, but the control players of mid-'04 were to busy pumping 'Togs to notice.  Everyone thought Tinker had to go for Memory Jar, which wasn't very good with Null Rod in play.

2. Forbidden Orchard: Or, more accurately, Oath of Druids decks that had a chance against control, prison, and combo because of Forbidden Orchard.

3. Crucible of Worlds:  This card hurts Fish in a number of ways.  First, your disruption is less powerful than it used to be.  Second, your Mishra's Factories are more easily dealt with.  And it isn't an activated ability : (

If you can deal with those three problems elegantly in a Gay/r frame you will have a good deck.  White splash versions of the deck have been successful because Meddling Mage deals with all three of them.

Leo

[Imsomniac101]

Quote from: Imsomniac101 on Yesterday at 02:16:25 PM
The problem with this list is that it has far too little disruption. You will get run over by most decks. Also you have no way to deal with large creatures, put some Bounce in. I would say UR is feasible if people opened their eyes and stopped playing the traditional lists. Example, Cloud of Faeries is a wasted slot.

With more disruption, you lose slots for threats. I have considered running one rushing river main. maybe echoing truth instead. What do you think is better than cloud of faeries?

With less disruption, your threats mean squat.

cloud is in my opinion a key card here... Play, untap, standstill 

Plays like that are why I like U/R.

Plays like that aren't that great anymore. Why? because you will draw crap off standstill. You don't have enough disruption to go around even with all that card draw you have.
Plus, Faerie hardly counts as a threat at all.
Faerie reads:
1/1 for 0.

REB would be a much better card to use instead since it actually does something against the opponent (barring Stax).
If you want to play a creature, I would suggest upping the Thief count to 4 and adding 2x Gilded Drake. Spend the remaining slot on a disruption card.

[ErkBek]

Here is the U/R fish I was working on for a heavy stax/gifts meta (then darkblast came out). It is straight from the GWS forums

Mana 25
5 Moxen (OMG full set of moxes in fish)
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus
5 Strips
2 Factory (bc I need colored mana all the time)
4 Volcanic
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island

Creatures 17
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Ninja
4 Waterfront Bouncer
3 Lavamancer
2 Goblin Vandal

Good stuff 3
1 Time Walk
2 Sword of F/I

Draw 3
1 Ancestral
2 Curiousity

Disruption 13
4 FoW
3 Chalice
4 Daze
2 Crucible of Worlds

SB 15
3 Rack and Ruin
4 Pryoblast
3 Hydroblast (counters REBs and Racks)
1 Chalice (games going first it helps a little)
1 Mountain
2 Goblin Vandal
3 Open spots for super techy cards

This deck has amazing tempo. I found aether vial to be bad, moxen were so much better. That opened up some things like MD Crucible and MD Sword of F/I. The Crucibles have been decent but I would consider cutting them for more draw mostly because the U card count is kinda low. I've also been considering trying out

Ghost-Lit Warder - 1u
Creature � Spirit 1/1
3U, T: Counter target spell unless its controller pays 2. Channel 3U, Discard Ghost-Lit Warder: Counter target spell unless its controller pays 4.
1/1

I haven't done a whole lot of testing post board, so maybe someone with more time, that hasn't given up on the deck could figure out a better SB. I've been playing GWS oath instead of fish, because it does almost everything fish wants to but with a faster kill.

[The Chosen One]

I am considering taking this deck to waterbury in January. Here are some changes I have made:

Maindeck:
-1 Misdirection
+1 Stifle(two in maindeck now)

Sideboard:
-1 Stifle
-2 Heretic
-2 BEB
-2 Fire/Ice
+1 Misdirection
+3 Energy Flux
+1 Rootwater Thief
+2 Sigil of Sleep

Any ideas for a better SB for Waterbury are welcome of course

[Deception101]

i haven't played much type 1, but i did play U/R fish back in the day.  I like the changes, and i must say i like the idea of 2 maindeck stifles. also the ninjas add some needed draw for the deck.  but now here comes the "newbie" question of the day:

why not cunning wish in the deck? it not only could be FoW fodder if necessary OR it can get those answers that fish needs for specific decks...its an idea i am just tossing it out there..

[The Chosen One]

What does everyone think about standstill in the deck? Should it be replaced by brainstorm? Without standstill, I would be more willing to drop the cloud of faeries for other options... Changes I may consider:

-4 Standstill
-4 Cloud of faeries
+4 Brainstorm
+1 Stifle
+2 Misdirection
+1 Fire/Ice

If I take the stifle and misdirections to the maindeck additions to SB would be +3 BEB

[[supa_t(im)]]

Fish's strategy has changed drastically over the past 2 years. The mana denial of Fish has been weakened due to more people running basics, and decks being able to reliably have mana to do broken things. Fish's disruption has changed. Now, they can no longer rely on weenies to beatdown slowly, they need to have some bigger guys to quicken the clock. They need to be able to disrupt in other ways besides the manabase effectively. And they need to have a more reliable draw engine. All of them are related in how the effect the building of the deck.

The first new strategy, having bigger creatures, has to do with cloud of faeries, spiketail hatchling, and ninja of the deep hours. Cloud of faeries isn't nearly as impressive as it once was. A free 1/1 flyer on turn 2 is crappy nowadays. You want all your guys to actually do something, and cloud just beats for 1. Spiketail is a 1/1 for 2 mana, which is pretty bad for a fish deck that is trying to put its opponent on a clock. And its ability is mediocre at best with the mediocre mana denial of traditional fish. Ninja takes care of the clock because his power is higher than most old fish creatures.

Disruption is related to creatures in that you want all your creatures to be able to do something, hopefully something to disrupt the opponent. Well, that means that cloud of faeries just isn't good anymore. All he does is beat for one, which just doesn't cut it anymore. Hatcling is a 1/1 which is not good since the two mana investment should give you a better beater (related in point 1), however, his ability is exceptionally mediocre given the new metagame. Fish needs some creatures that disrupt the opponent more intensly (hence meddling mage). In U/W javelineers serve as anti aggro and anti welder, so they fit disruption as well. They also have good synergy with ninjas.

The third point has more to do with why ninjas over curioisity and standstill VS brainstorm. Ninja already beats for 2, so he fits the bigger beats requirement. He ninjutsu's out, so his 4 mana cost isn't necessary (although it is notable that you can still play him under a chalice for 1 and 2, which would lock you down). Curiosity does give a draw engine to any creature, but with less creatures just beating, and more creatures actually doing stuff it can be a dead card. Curiosity on a cloud or hatchling (or any 1/1) sucks because if they die, you get card disadvantage. If ninja dies, CA remains the same. Curiosity also takes up precious disruption slots to actually have a draw engine. Ninja counts as a creature, and as a draw engine, efectively increasing the open card slots to 3 or 4. That is why ninja is better. Brainstorm is better than standstill for a number of reasons. Standstill is a situational draw spell that requires your opponent to do something to be good, which is bad. Brainstorm can be played based on your own need, which means it can better find that force, or whatever you are looking for. Also, more manlands are needed for standstill to be good, and frankly, faerie conclave was never good.

The deck needs 4 gorilla shaman, and 3-4 waterfront bouncers MD.  U/W runs 4 javelineers, this deck needs to run 4 lavamancers.  Daze is crap nowadays, run annul and stifle.  Fire/Ice should be MD, as they blow up welders, opposing fish, and tap fatties.  U/R is better in the fish mirror, and can still be competitive with some ingenuity.

This is what I've been using:

3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
4 Mishra's Factory

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Gorilla Shaman
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Waterfront Bouncer
2 Voidmage Prodigy

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
3 Annul
3 Stifle
3 Fire/Ice
3 Null Rod
1 Rushing River

3 REBs
3 BEBs
3 Arcane Lab
3 Energy Flux
3 Echoing Truth

[The Chosen One]

This is what I've been using:

3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
4 Mishra's Factory

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Gorilla Shaman
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Waterfront Bouncer
2 Voidmage Prodigy

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
3 Annul
3 Stifle
3 Fire/Ice
3 Null Rod
1 Rushing River

3 REBs
3 BEBs
3 Arcane Lab
3 Energy Flux
3 Echoing Truth

This list looks excellent. Athough I personally think 6(or maybe only five) fetches need to be in this deck, along with 1 mountain. The fetches thin and feed the lavamancers, six fetches=six damage with mancers. I think lava dart deserves a two of in the sb. If fire gets countered, well you can kill that welder anymore, flashback is great. I also think U/R fish NEEDS crucible, Replaying fetches, wastelands has been KEY in games I have played... Especially if the standstills leave the deck for brainstorms, the thinning of 5 or 6 fetches will make my draws more solid

[[supa_t(im)]]

6 fetches + 4 FoW can get a little painful.  They are useful with brainstorm and lavamancer as we all know.  I think 5 is the right number, as I couldn't fit the basic mountain in the powered version, and I only have 6 fetchable lands.  Split the ratio because of needle, just in case.

I tried crucible in the deck at first, but I just didn't like it.  The 3 mana cost is sorta prohibitive, and sometimes lavamancer needs the lands in the grave for fuel.  However, it is a great card against Stax (which this deck has a decent, but not great matchup against) and can press the mana denial theme further.  Another problem is what to take out.  I REALLY like all my disruptive spells.  Annul helps against the not so great matchups (oath, FCG to a degree, and Stax), stifle can help press the mana denial and solve a lot of problems that come up (this card is so versatile in a strong metagame).  And fire/ice helps the mirror, taps Oath's fatties, and kills welders.  If you really wanted CoW in the deck, I guess I would take out a stifle and a fire/ice, I would just be nervous about reducing my disruption density.

I'm not sure lava dart is needed.  Lavamancer, fire/ice, bouncer (to an extent), and BEBs from the SB can all help deal with welders.  However, if you are in a high Stax/CS metagame, or any metagame with lots of welders, 2 darts could easily be fit into the SB.

EDIT:  Keep in mind that darkblast can be a problem for the deck, so it is very important to metagame properly (running a few bigger guys, with 2 toughness).

[The Chosen One]

How good is mox monkey in this deck? It seems kind of wasted with 3 null rod and 3 energy flux in the sb. I would most likely put 4 null rod main and maybe a few lightnig bolt in place of the monkeys... I have had moments of ecstacy and of sorrow with the crucibles.When stretching for more land and never getting the third to drop it, it sucks. But when you get an early wasteland/strip mine, and that bad boy hits the board, I might have well blown my load all over my opponents deck...

I am partial to keeping the thieves in the deck since in my area I expect to see Gifts all day.

[[supa_t(im)]]

Mox monkey is real good.  He comes down turn 1, so he can help ninja.  He also creates actual card advantage in the deck, as opposed to null rod, which creates virtual card advantage.  4 null rods suck, they will clog your hand.  4 shamans never suck, they beat for 1.  Null rod can be good mana denial, but can also serve a different purpose, stopping slaver, belcher, trike, bus, vial, etc.  Shaman stops mana as well, but also prevents welder from doing its job.  You always want to draw a shaman, and multiples aren't bad.  You almost always want to draw a null rod, and multiples aren't great.  What if they nuke rod?  Having shaman backup to eat moxen, etc, is very helpful.

I'll try to fit in crucible and test.  I'm definitely not denying its power.

I never liked thief because it is so mana intensive, but I can definitely see him in the voidmage spot.

[The Chosen One]

Has anyone tested reroute from the new ravinca? Throwing a belcher activation at your opponent instead of you sounds fun

Tim: I will test out the monkeys. I actually have to buy them, but they are cheap. Although, with only 3 red sources of mana in your deck, don't you get pressed for the  ???

[[supa_t(im)]]

Reroute seems a bit narrow.  I think I'd rather run stifle anyway, it costs 1 less and pitches to FoW.

I've actually never had trouble with red, even with only 3 red sources.  I usually am able to fetch a volcanic island, since all my fetches grab it.  Stifle can take card of opposing wastelands usually.  Besides, wastelands usually go after my manlands, since they like to smash face quite a bit.  The deck could go down to 2 basic island for a mountain though.  Or even a 4th volcanic (I only own 3, hence why I play 3).

[Tijnie]

Actually i don't know what we're discussing. You're discussing the best build of U/R fish, I think thats nice but not the best way to explain why U/R seems to have left the planet. Lets take a small look at the other fish builds and you'll see my point. I'm focussing on the creatures and not on whatever hate you'll put into your other slots. (I presume all lists play mishra's factory)

the last U/W list played this creatures: Meddling Mage, Voidmage, Ninja, Kataki and Stormscape Apprentice + sideboarde True believes. Look at their power, only the Apprectice has a Beat for 1, the rest all have power 2 making ur clock faster.

U/B: most U/B use Confidant, Withered Wretch and mesmeric fiend. Here we also see >50% creatures with power 2.

U/G: Rootwalle, Wild Mongrel, Gaea's Skyfolk? and whatever. But here too i see strong creatures.

Now lets take a look at U/R: Lavamancer (might kick for 2 but not always), shaman, cloud of faeries, water bouncer, rootater thief, voidmage and ninja. Only 2 creatures have a power of 2 and lavamancer might do 2 damage sometimes if u're lucky.

Now what's my point? I think that U/r's clock became to slow to really beat ur opponent down fast enough. because you're this slow you can't keep controll with this deck for too long because fish is Agrro/(controll) and NOT controll. So you'll work youself into a gameplan you don't want. I think this is U/r's bigest problem today, the meta is alot faster now and our "tempo fish" deck doens't have the toys (yet) to adept to this speed. Al we're doing is trying to make it more into a Meta deck wich is good but limited especially on the biger tournements where you'll have a very big number of different match-ups.
Now we're only taling about our creatures power but we can all see that it's often more usefull to have a Meddling Mage of Dark Confidant in play than having a Lavamancer in play (at least in vintage, exept for the slaver and mirror match-up).

so i think red has to go find a better creature base for a faster clock instead of focussing on the metaslots. I think if it can adept in creature's the rest will follow by itself.

Tijnie

[The Chosen One]

so i think red has to go find a better creature base for a faster clock instead of focussing on the metaslots. I think if it can adept in creature's the rest will follow by itself.

Tijnie

Exactly.

What about using genju of the spire as a beater? Has anyone tried it? I shall playtest soon

[dksxmks]

The problem with selecting creatures for fish is that all creatures have to do something hateful/useful, not just beat. Not very many creatures can beat as well as hate efficiently.

[[supa_t(im)]]

I was trying to address the problem of bigger creatures in my build, really, I was.  The problem is what does red (or blue for that matter) give us that is 2 power?  Jackal pup?  Goblin Cadets?  Those just aren't going to work.  Therefore U/R needs to take a different strategy in many ways than U/W or U/G does.

Both U/W and U/G's strategy is to disrupt a little and beat down relatively quickly.  Since red has crap for beatdown creatures (aside from R/G), that is just not going to work.  U/R needs to disrupt a lot more than both U/W or U/G.  With annul, stifle, gorilla shaman, null rod, and strip effects, U/R can more effectively disrupt manabases than both U/W and U/G.

Now with the creatures I run in U/R (along with mishras factory) U/R's clock is only a half turn slower than Nicolo's U/W Fish (including factories).  Especially with lavamancer, because I don't know how you've been using him, but I don't have to be lucky to have fuel for him.  In a tournament yesterday, I was able to beat my opponent twice with lavamancer activations (I still only counted him as 1 power though).  Also, the power of creatures becomes much closer to U/R in any U/W build running javelineers.  The new savannah lions build does have a faster clock, but U/R should have an advantage in the mirror anyway.

I'm going to come right out and admit that U/W is probably the stronger deck in a more wide open metagame.  That means U/R Fish is a rogue deck now.  However, that doesn't mean you can just discount it.  There are metagames where U/W Fish is just not going to cut it, and then there are metagames where U/W Fish is everywhere.  I'd rather play U/R in those metagames.

When the deck can stall the opponent better, a faster clock becomes less necessary.  That has been my experience anyway.

Also, after taking the deck to a tournament, it definitely needs one more red source.  I'd drop an island for a basic mountain, for security's sake.

[J J P]

Both U/W and U/G's strategy is to disrupt a little and beat down relatively quickly.  Since red has crap for beatdown creatures (aside from R/G), that is just not going to work.  U/R needs to disrupt a lot more than both U/W or U/G.  With annul, stifle, gorilla shaman, null rod, and strip effects, U/R can more effectively disrupt manabases than both U/W and U/G.

All cards you mention, with the exeption of Gorilla Shaman, are available for U/W and U/G as well. Unless you are facing Goblin Welders all day long I can't see a reason to play U/R.

[The Chosen One]

U/R can more effectively disrupt manabases than both U/W and U/G.

  Especially with lavamancer, because I don't know how you've been using him, but I don't have to be lucky to have fuel for him.  In a tournament yesterday, I was able to beat my opponent twice with lavamancer activations (I still only counted him as 1 power though). 

 There are metagames where U/W Fish is just not going to cut it, and then there are metagames where U/W Fish is everywhere.  I'd rather play U/R in those metagames.

When the deck can stall the opponent better, a faster clock becomes less necessary.  That has been my experience anyway.

Also, after taking the deck to a tournament, it definitely needs one more red source.  I'd drop an island for a basic mountain, for security's sake.

oops, clicked the wrong button there..

Agreed, U/r attacks mana bases like no tommorow.
Tim, if I may call you Tim(he who summons fire without flint or tinder )  What kind of decks did you play against? How did you fare? Did you try crucibles main?

Lavamancer has been a winner for me, I don't know everyone else's feelings, but with counter/wastes/fetches, they get fed.

I am still a strong rooter for the rootwater thief. They yank cards U/W would name with meddling mage