Team Remedys Quicken Gifts

[fromm2020]

So one of the only talked about cards for vintage coming out of guildpact (besides the obvious card, Shattering Spree) is Quicken. Now many people have said that it is way to conditional and that it makes you rely on having a sorcery in hand at all times, Well me and one of my teammates strongly disagreed with
that argument. Basically Quicken gives you the opportunity to make all the already broken cards in your deck absolutely insane, being able to cast yawgs will
on your opponents turn and go for the win, possibly in response to theirs, or for instance just doing something as simple as demonic tutoring or casting burning wish EOT, and not to mention the game swinging EOT Tinker for DSC.  The card adds a large amount of card
selection to the deck by not having to tap out during your turn when you might need to have mana drain available. We decided to build a standard gifts
ungiven deck and add just a slightly more efficient tutoring card. The only thing I think may need to be changed is that I took out Island #4 for a fourth
Merchant Scroll, but beyond that we haven't been able to find anyway that this card hinders the performance of the deck, at worst it draws a card EOT or
pitches to Force and Mis-D. In fact we believe that the card greatly increases the opportunities you have to make your turn more explosive and ensure a win
where before you wouldn't have had the mana or proper cards in hand.

Basically you can statically replace Thirst for Knowledge from a modern or a Composite list from Smmenen's most recent starcity article with Quicken. Thirst
nets you 1-2 cards which you may not want, where as Quicken nets you at least 1 card, and the possibility of using at least 10 other cards in the deck at a
more convenient time.

The only opposing argument I have heard to that replacement was that Thirst provides cards advantage over Quicken. Not to be an echo, but I do believe Clown Of Tresserhorn had a very good point in saying that card selection is in most cases more important than card advantage. Why would you want a billion cards that you dont want when you could just have 1 that simply wins the game.


Team Remedys Quicken Gifts

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

Artifact Creatures
1 Darksteel Colossus

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Force Of Will
4 Gifts Ungiven
4 Mana Drain
2 Misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Rebuild
3 Quicken
 
Sorceries
1 Burning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Recoup
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Basic Lands
3 Island

Snow-Covered Lands
1 Snow-Covered Island

Lands
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

Legendary Lands
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard:
well to be honest it is going to change depending on your meta, but for sure you want:
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tendrills of Agony
2-3 Pithing Needles
and most likely a few Darkblast
Ive also been trying Imperial Seal


We have been testing this version since about the second day that the card was added to salvations spoiler and so far it out performs standard versions of
gifts in almost every aspect.

If you are able to find anything else that may better the deck plz let me know and ill be sure to test it, but beyond that just try the deck and you'll see
why this 1 card changes it SO much.

[UR]

being able to cast yawgs will
on your opponents end step, then untap and and have that mana freed up is comparable to casting the will with a lotus,

Unfortunately that doesn't work. There is a difference between 'at end of turn' and 'until end of turn'. Yawgmoth's will reads 'Until end of turn bla bla'.

It isn't something that triggers at the end of the turn and so there is no point in playing it after the EOT triggers because it will only work THAT TURN. Your own turn is a new turn and the Will will no longer be active.

A judge could probably explain it better, but there is really no point in playing the will EOT because you won't get the effect on your own turn.

[fromm2020]

Ill have to check on that because i was informed of that trick by a judge. but even beyond that the other uses of the card are the main reason it was added to the deck.

[Mantis]

Honestly, besides making Merchant Scroll and Demonic Tutor more expensive Instants, I can't see the reason to run Quicken in a Gifts list. It doesn't provide you card advantage, not cardselection, it doesn't counter!
I must admit, it will give you some really flashy kills and it will impress people when you Tendrills in response to their Tendrills or something. You only run 10 sorceries, is it really that usefull?
I can't see why an EOT Tinker is that much better than one in your own turn. You still need counter backup!
And the EOT Will trick doesn't work. EOT Time Walk 1UU is strictly worse than Socery Time Walk 1U.

As much as I like innovation, I can't see why Quicken would make a Gifts deck any better.

[orgcandman]

Honestly, besides making Merchant Scroll and Demonic Tutor more expensive Instants, I can't see the reason to run Quicken in a Gifts list.

I'll pay 1BU for an unconditional instant demonic. Wouldn't you?

It doesn't provide you card advantage, not cardselection, it doesn't counter!

It also doesn't cause card disadvantage. It's a cantrip.

I must admit, it will give you some really flashy kills and it will impress people when you Tendrills in response to their Tendrills or something. You only run 10 sorceries, is it really that usefull?

I don't personally think that 3 copies are warranted in gifts (actually, I'm not even convinced that 1 belongs, but that's for different reasons).

I can't see why an EOT Tinker is that much better than one in your own turn. You still need counter backup!

EOT tinker means no mana invested in your mainphase. You can basically "go off" a turn earlier by having the colossus available right away, and STILL have counter mana up through your next few turns. Tinker is one of the few reasons that Quicken looks mildly playable.

EOT Time Walk 1UU is strictly worse than Socery Time Walk 1U.

Uhm...no? It's not known how "strictly better" a sorcery speed timewalk that costs U less is, mostly because one doesn't exist. Responding to someone tapping out by using time walk can be good, especially at your own EOT (for the "Surprise!" value). I'm not saying that it's stellar, but it's not weak.

As much as I like innovation, I can't see why Quicken would make a Gifts deck any better.

Agreed, but not for the reasons you listed. My team is starting work on yet another budget deck (one that will use quicken). Be prepared

[Moxlotus]

A 1UB instant speed Demonic is good.  A 1UB instant demonic that requires your deck to use multiple copies of a card that doesn't do anything spectacular on its own isn't.  You are adding more cards to the deck that you you don't want to see in your opening hand.  It is a card that makes other cards marginally better.  Instead of playing something EOT using this card, this card could be something more useful-like a Duress to make sure that your spell would get through.

EOT Tinker, so you can go off in your turn???  I consider the turn you cast Tinker the "going off" turn.  That is usually when you need to have the protection-who's going to be fighting your Time Walks when they could have fought the Tinker?

[fromm2020]

Honestly, besides making Merchant Scroll and Demonic Tutor more expensive Instants, I can't see the reason to run Quicken in a Gifts list. It doesn't provide you card advantage, not cardselection, it doesn't counter!

How is getting a card that you need EOT with Demonic or Scroll not card selection? thats the point of those cards, they get you what you want when you need it. Quicken just helps you not to be so vulnerable during your turn and save your mana for Drain.

I must admit, it will give you some really flashy kills and it will impress people when you Tendrills in response to their Tendrills or something. You only run 10 sorceries, is it really that usefull?

That is a small bonus when you pull it off, but the main point of using Quicken is have the ability to have your counters ready when there important, and if you dont use them you can tutor without being worried if there gonna go off that turn.

I can't see why an EOT Tinker is that much better than one in your own turn. You still need counter backup!
And the EOT Will trick doesn't work. EOT Time Walk 1UU is strictly worse than Socery Time Walk 1U.

Any sorcery EOT for just 1 more mana is way more useful, it makes sure you wont over extend during your turn, EOT Tinker puts you on turn closer to winning, and gives your opponent 1 less possible card to draw that might be an answer. Just look at ravager, not the best example im sure but look at this, the artifact lands suck, they die to everything, but you play them because they help everything else be a little better.

Im not saying that Quicken is incredible by it self but look at the ups and down:
The +'s
+Lets you hold tutors til EOT while keeping Drain mana up
+replaces itself in your hand
The -'s
- isnt thirst or Mis-d 3
not really much else

[Mantis]

How is getting a card that you need EOT with Demonic or Scroll not card selection? thats the point of those cards, they get you what you want when you need it. Quicken just helps you not to be so vulnerable during your turn and save your mana for Drain.

You don't get my point, I'm trying to say that Quicken is no card selection. Demonic is, but it's card selection regardless of Quicken.

It also doesn't cause card disadvantage. It's a cantrip.

What's your point? Doesn't have anything to do with what I said. A cantrip is still no cardadvantage.

I'm sorry if I fail to explain why I don't think Quicken is belongs here. It's essentially a good card and I was a little bit overreacting. My main motivation not to play it would be; It's too situational and slows you down because your sorceries will cost an extra U if you wish to use Quicken.

Perhaps the effectiveness of Quicken is determined by one's metagame. I can imagine a Quicken doing a much better job in a metagame crowded with Mana Drain controll decks than in a meta where Stax is running rampant and you are going to need every mana you can spare. It might just be a matter of personal preference and playstyle, but thus far I'm not impressed by the arguments to run Quicken.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Just a side note. The deck only runs 24 mana sources, 4 of which are basics. This is suicide. With Null Rods/Wastes running rampant, you CANNOT afford to have a weak manabase. 10/24 of your mana is affected by chalice/rod. I strongly suggest going back up to 25 mana sources (I run 26 myself, as missing a land drop is worse than anything any deck can do to Gifts). Also, I've said this many times, you don't need 2 seas MD. You run 2 black cards maindeck. And when you kill with tendrils, Lotus will always be in your gifts pile. The only reason there are 2 Volcs in there is because you run REBs and Rack and ruins in the board.

[fromm2020]

In my list you can replace merchant scroll 4 or gifts 4 with another island, i think 26 is just overkill. I probably will go down to 1 Underground, i just used a general build for testing and slightly modded it, 2 Undergrounds is the most common.

You don't get my point, I'm trying to say that Quicken is no card selection. Demonic is, but it's card selection regardless of Quicken.

I'm sorry if I fail to explain why I don't think Quicken is belongs here. It's essentially a good card and I was a little bit overreacting. My main motivation not to play it would be; It's too situational and slows you down because your sorceries will cost an extra U if you wish to use Quicken.

Perhaps the effectiveness of Quicken is determined by one's metagame. I can imagine a Quicken doing a much better job in a metagame crowded with Mana Drain controll decks than in a meta where Stax is running rampant and you are going to need every mana you can spare. It might just be a matter of personal preference and playstyle, but thus far I'm not impressed by the arguments to run Quicken.

And it may be very meta reliant but i just wanted to present the idea because it is a great use for Gifts' possible metagame slots, it may not be played everywhere but it definitely will be used and can increase some aspects of the deck. The card may even be more suited for a tendrills only version of the deck, i havent had the time to test that yet.

[Liam-K]

Just a side note. The deck only runs 24 mana sources, 4 of which are basics. This is suicide. With Null Rods/Wastes running rampant, you CANNOT afford to have a weak manabase. 10/24 of your mana is affected by chalice/rod. I strongly suggest going back up to 25 mana sources (I run 26 myself, as missing a land drop is worse than anything any deck can do to Gifts). Also, I've said this many times, you don't need 2 seas MD. You run 2 black cards maindeck. And when you kill with tendrils, Lotus will always be in your gifts pile. The only reason there are 2 Volcs in there is because you run REBs and Rack and ruins in the board.

QFT.  Going up to 26 sources is the best thing I've done ot my gifts list except putting FoF back in.

As much as EOT merchant scroll is the hotness, all decks hate dead cards, and all decks hate cantripping cantrips just because they are useless right now.  This card takes up way too many slots to be playable.  I'll take my maindeck Darkblast and Mox Monkeys over this list anywhere.

[orgcandman]

I consider the turn you cast Tinker the "going off" turn.  That is usually when you need to have the protection-who's going to be fighting your Time Walks when they could have fought the Tinker?

Well, sure, you might be "going off" then, but it'd be like resolving tendrils, only to have someone ertai's meddling all the copies for a turn. Sure, you "went off" but you still gave them time to find an answer. you haven't "GONE" off until you win.

It also doesn't cause card disadvantage. It's a cantrip.

What's your point? Doesn't have anything to do with what I said. A cantrip is still no cardadvantage.

It sure does. Plenty of cards which aren't even card advantageous are run. And plenty of cards which "only" cantrip out are run. Looking at a card with "Card Advantage" blinders on would make you say that tinker is not a good card, and that thirst for knowledge is only a good card if you have an artifact. Neither of those is true.

[MoxMonkey]

TPS w/r Breaks this card so much better than gifts.dec list ever could.  You do your EOT Merchant Scroll.  Now this sounds good and scary but have you ever came face to face with an EOT Wheel, Time twister, Tinker?  I would look at some Italy TPS list and toss a Quicken or 2 in it and you will be surprised.  Also a Random EOT Duress is nice.

[PucktheCat]

I have to agree with Liam and Clown on 26 mana.  No card I have added to the main deck did more to help the Stax matchup than the 26th land.  No need for more than one Sea.  If you have a need for more black mana a Swamp is better than a second Sea.

Quicken seems weak in Gifts.  You can't Will with because the most important thing Will does is replay a big pile of artifact mana.  You can't Recoup with it (unless you have two) because the spell you Recoup won't be Quickened.  You can Burning Wish with it some of the time, but most often Wish is cast on a Will turn for the kill.  That leaves 4x Merchant Scroll, Demonic Tutor, Time Walk, and Tinker - 7 cards.

Quicken also requires an additional blue mana to cast.  Mantis has hit on this, but didn't bring the point home.  An additional colored mana delays a spell a full turn, even in T1, because almost all our acceleration is colorless.  The only reason Merchant Scroll is in Gifts decks at all is because it can be played first turn off a Mox and a land.  When you can't play it that way it is a terrible card (for example, Uba Stax has 4x Chalice, 3x Uba Mask.  That means you can't play Scroll -> Ancestral early and pass the turn.  That makes Merchant Scroll a terrible card).  In this deck Time Walk is likely to be played the same way - ASAP.  When you draw one of these cards and Quicken you have to either play the Sorcery right away and then cantrip the Quicken later or waste your first turn mana and delay a turn to play Quicken and the Sorcery.  I am not sure which play is worse, but they are both awful.

The next point is that for Quicken to be useful at all you have to play with a full set of Merchant Scrolls.  I won't go so far as to say that 4x Merchant Scroll is always incorrect, but I do think that most Gifts players have moved away from that configuration.

And of course, the main reason you want to play these spells as an instant is to keep your Drain mana up.  Drain mana is nice, either with a Drain in hand or as a bluff, but you only have 4 Drains in the deck.  The hand you want, Quicken + Relevant Sorcery (that you haven't already cast) + Drain, is a three card combo.  And, of course, since Quicken costs blue itself you are going to run into situations where your opponent can play a bomb in response to your Quick Sorcery without your being able to counter.

Finally, let's be done with the "its a cantrip" argument.  That is certainly a nice feature of the card, and it mitigates the problem created by the fact that it will frequently be dead, but it isn't enough unless the card is good on its own.  Brainstorm is terrible without a shuffle effect, but it is still strictly better than this is when you cantrip it.  We have a million 1cc cantrips in T1 that don't see play.

I think the comparison to Overmaster is actually fairly apt.  This will help you win games that stretch out into the mid/late-game by playing around peoples counters and letting you keep your mana up.  It is less powerful than Overmaster in Control mirrors, but more powerful and less risky (red mana is risky to fetch) in other matchups.  But both cost one mana, cantrip, and require a bomb to be effective.

[Cross]

Why are you running the tendrils in the sideboard? Isn't the point of the deck to have your opponent cast like 7 spells, then you quicken and tendrils for the win? Otherwise tendrils is mostly unueseful.

[orgcandman]

Quicken seems weak in Gifts.

I'd go so far as to say it's worse than weak. It's downright awful.

Finally, let's be done with the "its a cantrip" argument.

The only reason I brought it up is to overshadow a broader issue of people looking at cards with the "Card Advantage" blinders on. There are other things than card advantage, including winning. I'm not arguing that Quicken is good, I'm arguing that the initial criteria set forth doesn't adequately describe WHY IT'S NOT GOOD. It's readily apparent that it doesn't actually DO anything on its own, and will never be used as part of a game winning combo, so it's mostly there to "win more."

[LotusHead]

Quicken seems weak in Gifts.

I'd go so far as to say it's worse than weak. It's downright awful.

 

 


I would go so far as to say that Quicken, at least as a 1 of or 2 of in Gifts or Tinker.dec is strong.  In addition to EOT Tinker/Duress, you can play Quicken-->Merchant Scroll in the middle of a counterwar (say, over Ancestral Recall or the soon to be obsolete MainPhase Tinker) when you can normally NOT play an Instant, just to fetch that Misdirection or Force of Will to be "winning".  And you get to draw a card. This is important in the EOT Mystical Tutor for Tinker, Quicken (draw Tinker) Tinker play.

Some decks will be Quick, and some will be slow.

Lastly, thanks for posting a list for discussion.  If you belive in your deck and understand the metagame, just explain things in detail for debate.  TMD is like a Crucible of Worlds for deckbuilders.