My attempt to play this overhyped card named Dark Confidant

[Gabethebabe]

After Thug introduced TT, I started liking Dark Confidant and got myself a playset on eBay. Not for playing a copy of Thug´s list, because I think there are a couple of things wrong with that deck. Thirst don´t really pull their weight, high CC bombs that sometimes get stuck in hand (I like Bargain better with Rituals than with Drains) and artifact bouncers that sometimes show up when they shouldn´t. So let´s go to the drawing board (without the guarantee I could cook up anything that was better than TT, but it would in any case be original).

A TPS with Confidant? No that was not my idea of a healthy deck. See also Meddling Mage´s article, it provides just the reasons of why Confidant should not be played in a ritual-based combo deck.

No, Bob is better placed in a Drain control/combo deck (like TT). So I decided to try if Bob would perform well in a Gifts environment.

Brassman´s variant was possible and looked promising, because his build has place for little artifacts and Tops seemed a perfect fit. But my (little) playtesting showed that also here Thirsts didn´t pull their weight, since most of the time I had better things to do with my mana than dump cards I wanted on the table into my graveyard.

So I decided finally to test Bob in a Meandeck-like Gifts variant, with Merchant Scrolls. Here is the first list I created:

4 Dark Confidant
1 Darksteel Colossus

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Gifts Ungiven
3 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Fact of Fiction
1 Rebuild
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Burning Wish
1 Recoup
1 Fire/Ice
2 Sensei´s Divining Top

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Tolarian Academy


SB:
3 Annul
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod´s Crypt
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Hurkyll´s Recall
1 Rushing River
1 Darkblast
1 Duress
1 Pyroblast
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Echoing Ruin (utter crap)

This deck combines the drawing engine of Meandeck Gifts (=Ancestral Recall) with the drawing engine that Bob provides. Since goldfishing a drain-based deck is just stupid (it is an inherently interactive deck) I couldn´t really test it, so I just brought the deck to the first Catalan Vintage league tournament. 87 persons showed up to play. Here´s the report:

Match 1 (onpowered Oath)
He won the die roll and played t2 Oath with Orchard and FoW backup. Cool. Bops and Tobs went out and Red Blasts and Annuls went in. In the second game a quick Colossus did him in. In the third game I mulliganed to a decent 5 (something like Annul,  FoF, two islands and some blue card I don´t remember). We (luckily) played draw-go for a couple of rounds until he cast Extract. I FoF-ed in response, which he Leaked, I FoW-ed the Leak, pitching Tinker, moving it quickly to the RFG zone behind my deckbox. A key play, because after he FoW-ed back, he picked up my library and removed Colossus. You and I know that Burning Wish would have been better. Anyway, when he resolved an Oath I played a mainphase Gifts and since I had Wish and Recoup in hand, it was just Will and mana. I had just enough mana to Tendrils for the kill (2-1)

Match 2 (Brassman Gifts).
I opened with a turn 1 Confidant and that was basically it. I sided out two Confidants, F/I, Mystical and a Top for 3 Red Blasts and two Crypts. He sided in creature hate . I don´t remember how the second game went, but I was in no hurry and played the control game and did that better than him. He managed to get Charbelcher into play, killed a Confidant with it tjhat I played just for bait and the turn later, with a deadly Tendrils on the stack, he fired it again, but only flipped over 1 non-land card (2-0).

Match 3. Madness/Dragon variant (like the one invented by Bode).
Turn 1 Confidant. It drew some useful stuff and managed to Tinker a Colossus into play. His two Arrogant Wurms were not quite impressive. In the second game he opened with a Swarm and I had a nice turn 1, playing about 1500$ of cards, ending with a Collossus on the table. He played something and in my next turn I played the same 1500$ of cards again, thanks to a certain black sorcery. Scroll for Mystical for Walk, followed by Ancestral made sure he didn´t get another turn (2-0).

Match 4. GrimLong
Bad matchup. In the first game I FoW-ed his Lotus-Necro opener and got Drain on-line. I Drained his next two threats, one of which was a desperate Will. Now the Confidant came down that I was holding some time and the game was mine. My sideboard was kinda shitty, but I thought Confidants were definitely too slow, so I sided all Bops and Tobs out in favour of Duress, REBs, Darkblast and an Annul. In the second I managed to counter stuff and was doing well, until I hit a mana pocket. Drawing mana, mana, Ancestral, manax4(!) is usually not good vs Long. The coward hid behind a Xantid, cast a draw-7 and went off. Time was almost out and in the last game I managed to hold the defenses, scroll for counters and all. So we drew (1-1). Not bad at all.

Match 5. Stax.
Long intense matches too complicated to remember well. In both a first turn Chalice=0 hindered my mana development. In both I got Bob into play. In both I was constantly tangled in wires (jee, Annul is just sooo much better than Drain against Stax). In both matches I couldn´t really get into the game, didn´t get enough basic lands into play and was struggling and using my resources to not lose. In the first he finally managed to get Karn on the table that I couldn´t deal with and that was it. In the second we went through time, so I lost 0-1.

Basic lands are good. I dearly missed them.

Match 6. Goblins R/w (for Swords I presume).
This was a buddy of mine and he had 12 points to my 10, so I had already made up my mind to concede to him, so he could draw into T8. I couldn´t play the final anyway because of time constraints (I came by train, it snowed heavily in Spain and I had to leave the car at home). I won the first (turn 1 Tinker), brainfarted two times in the second game (forgetting what Dredge exactly does). Whatever. When time was called in the third game I conceded (1-2).

Match 7. UBA
Game one he played a quick Uba Mask. Since I had no answer for it and the long game prospects therefore looked rather bleak (no Confidants or Tops in sight yet), I invested my mana position and Demonic Tutor into a Tinker for Colossus. He got to draw a lot of cards (Bazaar), but Duplicant wasn´t one of them. Good, because I was out of counters. In the second Bob showed his ugly face again in the first turn and also I managed to quickly find some artifact hate, so he really never stood a chance. Bob and his bro did him in (2-0).

So what about this deck? I liked how it felt. An early Confidant is just awesome. Three times he showed up turn 1, games I won easily. Merchant Scroll shines when Bob is on-line, because you just go for countermagic and let the Great One do the work. Drawing multiple Confidants is usually not what you want, but there is also the need to play one ASAP (turn 1-2) so I´m still relatively undecided about whether you should play 3 or 4 Confidants.
I was maybe a little lucky flipping cards, because I didn´t always have the possibility to manipulate my library. Bob didn´t do me more than 4 and that was when I started playing sloppy in a won game.

Against Welder based decks I sided out Tinker/Collosus all the time. Against control you have the possibility to leave the 4 Confidants in, but you can also side them all out and see them draw useless Darkblasts, Fire/Ice or Pyroclasms.

Still there is work to do. My manabase did me in in the match vs Stax. Maybe I should go 3-4 in Undergrounds/Islands or even 2-4-1 Swamp.

With a Top on the table, Brainstorm becomes a Reach Through Mists. These two cards have very few synergy. But besides the shaky manabase this was the only self criticism I can come up with. Maybe that you can find something more (I´m sure you do).

[Phele]

I just pushed this thread back up again, because I don't understand why it hasn't got more attention. The presented Confidant-version is in my eyes the best developed yet. It isn't so reliant on Confidant as TT Confidant, because its skeleton is still just Gifts. Its more broken than the controlish version Thug just presented.

Look at the draw combination of Gifts, Dark Confidant and Merchant Scrolls. Its more flexible than 4 Thirsts for example, generates more card advantage and is cheap. What else do you want? The only weakness it has is a slightly heavier vulnerability to wastelands. But when a Confidant resolves it shouldn't be a problem any more, because every wasteland then also gives you another turn and so another "double-draw".

@gathethebabe, I have a few suggestions for changes of the decklist

I play one Chain of Vapor main: It roundens up the toolbox of Merchant Scroll (which I really would like to upen to four, cause its so good, but I found no place), gives you a maindeck answer to Oath, Dragon and alike beside being able to bounce Collossus, Welder and Meddling Mage as well and is another great storm enabler with a lower mana cost.

I play just three Confidants: I hate having two of them in my hand. You just randomly want to have two of the little mages out and I dont want to be to reliant on the little guy, while ping damage is played more again. Nevertheless a first turn Confidant ist gordious I think three is the right number.

Following that: I cut one Sensei. Its horrible in combination with Brainstorm and just so so without a Confidant. I even think it's possible to cut them out totally and just relie on brainstorm and a quicker win befor Confidant kills you.

I play 16 lands: First of all I added Library which is ridicoulus with Confidant and a great weapon against control anyway and second I think with the heavier splash of U-Seas you need more lands for not losing to easily against Staxx. Another possibility is to play one U-Sea and one Swamp but while testing I too often hated that the swamp couldn't produce blue

Burning Wish: In 90 percent of the time I wished for Tendrils as life loss has become more of an issue with Confidant and the card advantage he provided gave me better possiblities to just storm. I just randomly wished for Time Walk to push through the Collossus kill. But many times I really had to prepare the  Tendrils kill, because I needed so much different coloured mana. My question: Why not exchange the Wish with Tendrils as it is the main target anyway. With 3 Merchant Scroll, 1 Rebuild and 1 Chain of Vapor you are more flexible than TT Confidant but you have almost the same possiblities to upen the storm count with ease and just Tendrils for the win after a few Confidant hits. With Burning Wish you have to often use Will to finish the storm kill. With Tendrils main you just need one Underground Sea and a jet/petal/lotus/fetch. Another possibility would be to play both, Burning Wish and Tendrils but I don't like to have more than two dead cards main.

My list is almost the same as yours

- 1 Sensei
- 1 Confidant
- 1 Mana Vault
- 1 Fact or Fiction
- 1 Burning Wish

+ 1 Chain of Vapor
+ 1 Library of Alexandria
+ 1 Island
+ 1 Tendrils
+ 1 Vampiric

and I' m quite happy with it

[Gabethebabe]

Thanks for your input, Phele

I think that cutting a Confidant and a Top and replacing with a removal spell and a mana source is a very sensible thing to do.

I can imagine that during your testing you disliked the Swamp. But I think in real life you are going to like to have a robust black mana source on the table. Everybody says it all the time. Basic lands are good. Since you don´t run stuff like strips and Darksteel Citadel, you should be able to get away with a land that does not produce U.
I still tend to go from 4 Undergrounds to 2 and 2 Island+Swamp, in addition to the library that gets added as new mana source.

I would not quickly cut Vault. I would not quickly cut Burning Wish. If you do, I think you have made Colossus a whole lot less effective. Vault is the best tinker food available in the deck (some decks like to drop Chalice =0), Wish is the best way to make sure that they will not get another turn. Think of gifts stacks like Tinker, Recoup, Walk, Wish.

Also Vamp for FoF I find questionable. You already have 5 tutors in the deck. You are already losing life as it is. I´d rather crack a fetch for sea and cast Confidant and then see it wasted, then crack it and vamp, lose a card and a black source which should be made up with the card quality that Vamp provides.

I kinda like FoF. It is a good Gifts card if you´re looking for card advantage (say you cast a first turn Gifts off a Crypt and a mox/petal).

[Hydra]

I have to agree with Gabe.  Fact or Fiction is an amazing card in a deck built around the Gifts deck base, as more often than not you will be forcing your opponent to give you broken piles.  I've played Gifts almost exclusively in tournaments since July, and while I have lost games after resolving a Gifts, I have never lost one after resolving a Fact or Fiction.

Cutting Burning Wish also does hurt flexibility a bit.  It does fetch the Tendrils win yes, as well as letting you Yawg's Will twice, but most people seem to pass up on using it as a utility card.  There's been several instances where I've cast Burning Wish for Duress against another control deck.  It also allows you to cast Tinker three times during a game, which while rare does occasionally need to occur.

[Phele]

Thanks for the input!

I agree with you, that cutting burning wish is probably bad, cause he widens the possibilities of the deck so much. Also the vamp as gabe said is really a candidate for cutting, but I pretty often do like his ability to get academy or lotus or needle, whatever.

Fact is a great card thats for sure, but I can live without him as he fights with fourth Gifts about his position anyway. He's great draw utility but doesnt have this deck horribly lot of a draw.

While not cutting Burning Wish I'm still sick with the idea of including Tendrils main cause I think that Dark Gifts can go as aggressive on the Tendriils route as TT Confidant, thanks to the Merchant Scrolls. For that I'd like to get me my Tendrils much easier than always over Burning Wish. The deck is black heavier anyway and this could be another reason to use a single basic swamp. After two attacks with Confidant or one with the Collossus it can be so great to fire of a littel Tendrils for the win. So I would reconsider my suggestions for some changes in Gathebabes decklist to:

- 1 Sensei
- 1 Confidant
- 1 Mana Vault
- 1 Fact or Fiction
- 2 Underground Sea
- 1 Flooded Strand

+ 1 Chain of Vapor
+ 1 Library of Alexandria
+ 1 Island
+ 2 Polluted Delta
+ 1 Swamp
+ 1 Tendrils
(+ 1 Mana Vault as card number 61 )

My Sideboard would be that way

3 Pithing Needle
1 Sundering Titan
2 Duress
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Pyroclasm
1 Deep Analysis
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Hurkyls Recall
1 Rushing River

(other candidates are
Platinum Angel
Bribery
Rack and Ruin II
Eye of Nowhere
Tormods Crypts)

Its not the best way to have three almost dead cards maindeck, but all together this deck can generate so much of card advantage and can go so broken on the colossus route or on the Tendrils one, that it doesnt matters that much.

[Harlequin]

[... Burning wish] also allows you to cast Tinker three times during a game, which while rare does occasionally need to occur.

Much more importantly/useful, is that it lets you timewalk 3 times in a row.  Being able to "recur" DSC is one thing, being able to take 4 turns in a row, yeah theres one word for that - Broken.

actually I supose you could technicall get even more use outa it with recoup!
your turn (1 turn)
Cast TW (x1 = 2 turns)
Cast Will -> Cast TW (x2 = 3 turns)
Cast Burning wish -> Cast TW (x3 = 4 turns)
Cast Recoup -> Cast TW (x4 = 5 turns).

I think If you Walk 4 times and still loose, you should get a new timewalk because clearly the one your playing with was used to like ... unearth a mummy, and then convince an Aztech shamman to ride said mummy down the roof of Notre Dame into an indian burrial ground filled with Voodoo dolls.

Umm... in summary Burning wish leads to brokenness.

[Draven]

[... Burning wish] also allows you to cast Tinker three times during a game, which while rare does occasionally need to occur.

Much more importantly/useful, is that it lets you timewalk 3 times in a row.  Being able to "recur" DSC is one thing, being able to take 4 turns in a row, yeah theres one word for that - Broken.

actually I supose you could technicall get even more use outa it with recoup!
your turn (1 turn)
Cast TW (x1 = 2 turns)
Cast Will -> Cast TW (x2 = 3 turns)
Cast Burning wish -> Cast TW (x3 = 4 turns)
Cast Recoup -> Cast TW (x4 = 5 turns).

I think If you Walk 4 times and still loose, you should get a new timewalk because clearly the one your playing with was used to like ... unearth a mummy, and then convince an Aztech shamman to ride said mummy down the roof of Notre Dame into an indian burrial ground filled with Voodoo dolls.

Umm... in summary Burning wish leads to brokenness.

Try that little trick when the round ends and it is down to turns and watch your opponants face

I would NEVER consider cutting Burning Wish, it is just sooo resilent.

[Hydra]

[... Burning wish] also allows you to cast Tinker three times during a game, which while rare does occasionally need to occur.

Much more importantly/useful, is that it lets you timewalk 3 times in a row.� Being able to "recur" DSC is one thing, being able to take 4 turns in a row, yeah theres one word for that - Broken.

actually I supose you could technicall get even more use outa it with recoup!
your turn (1 turn)
Cast TW (x1 = 2 turns)
Cast Will -> Cast TW (x2 = 3 turns)
Cast Burning wish -> Cast TW (x3 = 4 turns)
Cast Recoup -> Cast TW (x4 = 5 turns).

I think If you Walk 4 times and still loose, you should get a new timewalk because clearly the one your playing with was used to like ... unearth a mummy, and then convince an Aztech shamman to ride said mummy down the roof of Notre Dame into an indian burrial ground filled with Voodoo dolls.

Umm... in summary Burning wish leads to brokenness.

I didn't mention that because it's one of the more obvious uses for Burning Wish.  I was focusing more on less common but still good uses for it.

[Phele]

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27496.new;boardseen#new

here are interesting results with a similar decklist. Note that both #2 and #3 don't use Burning Wish and so go the Tendrils route more aggressively. I still don't think that burning wish is necessary. You shouldn't need to Tinker or Yawgmoths Will more than twice without winning. The only argument that counts is that it can be a must to Time Walk more than twice even thoug its rare.

Anyway: I love Burning Wish as well and it can easily be included in these lists say - 2 Duress, + 1 Burning Wish, + 1 Merchant Scroll. Duress in my eyes is pretty meta dependent. But what I would like to discuss: Isn't it a necessary evil to include Tendrils main as the deck in my configuration would have seven ways to bounce or to find bounce and so can Tendrils rarely should be a dead draw and instead is another big thread. I would at least always prefer it over Sensei's Top, as both negates the negative effects of Confidant but with a totally different result. What do you think?

By the way: I wouldn't play just 14 Lands as these guys have done. At least I would include Library being just ridiculous in this deck.

[sixth]

Hi, I just registered to give you guys some feedback on this deck

I'm the one who placed 3rd in the top8 Phele is referring to, and I actually did the meta-tuning on this deck for me and my 2nd placed friend.

I was inspired by this discussion going on here on TMD, so I'd like to contribute some thoughts of mine:

Like Phele, I'm quite happy with three confidants. You aren't reliant on Confidants, you're still playing Gifts. But with confidants, you don't have to play crap like Thirst for Knowledge (and start discarding Moxen which you would have wanted to go broken). Confidants get you another broken First-Turn Play - or how would you describe this attacking / blocking Library of Alexandria, that doesn't require you to play slowly and to expose yourself to Wastelands? (I even maindecked a swamp in place of LoA. I thought, why playing a wasteable LoA effect - LoA itself -, which requires me to play slowly, when I could cast my three running LoA without fearing wastelands..)

Without Thirst for Knowledge and with three Confidants, you really don't want to play Senseis Divining Top, they are a waste of maindeck slots. A resolved & active Confidant should give you enough boost to be able to win before you get killed by confidant.

With the maindeck swamp, I decided to play an aggressive Gifts Build. I maindecked Duress, Vampiric and Tendrils, and cut Burning Wish and one Merchant Scroll. While knowing how useful Burning Wish can be to have recurring Time Walks etc., Burning Wish can quite often delay your Yawgmoths Win / Tendrils, and urges you to get Red Mana in your Gifts or by fetching out non-basics prior YawgWin..

Tendrils is also a threat on its own. In this version, you can tutor bounce (Chain of Vapor is even preferred) quite easily - in the tournament, I was in topdeck mode (late game) with an active Confidant. I revealed Tendrils, my opponent was quite happy that I had to take four damage and had drawn nothing of relevance, at least in his opinion. Well, the next card was Merchant Scroll, and after my attack I scrolled for Chain, bounced some Moxen and Confidant, replayed Confidant, and won with Tendrils. The maindeck Swamp is also sometimes important to ensure your black mana needs, especially when comboing without YawgWin, aka without Lotus.

People also don't really expect Gifts to have maindecked Tendrils, they are quite used to Burning Wish. It's very amusing to lose your maindeck counterwar about ancestral in the mid-game, just to gain storm, and to play your held-back Moxen and Tendrils for the Win, regardless of their new broken hand

Another huge Plus of maindeck Swamp: it makes your Darkblast in the Sideboard a reliable welder / shaman / fish.dec-Confidant / annoyance removal, in addition to Pithing Needle. This was quite important for me in the tourney, I underestimated this fact..

The land issue.. I know 14 Lands are few, probably I should be playing 15. But when you can play your matches without having to fetch out non-basics once (Swamp, and no Burning Wish needed), even without Library, you obviously get away with 14. Confidant helps to get a steady flow of mana, too


If you expect your meta to be about 3/5 combo/control, do not hesitate to maindeck two Duress. This way, you won't have to scroll for Force against combo that often, win Counterwars against opposing Control and even get away against Fish/Staxx if you're running that praised basic swamp

[Luc]

Hi, I played a very similar decklist to a 3rd place finish in Iserlohn
a week before. The biggest difference is I swapped the Burnig Wish/
Tendrils for the FlameVault combo. It made me win games Tendrils
wouldnt have. Also I played 16 lands. I had a swamp in the sideboard
and will consider moving it maindeck.
I played no tops at all and confidant damage was never an issue as
stated in the post above. I never felt comfortable with the last three
slots in Gifts. I didnt like Misdirection nor Thirst nor Oath. Confidant
just fits perfectly, increasing the deck's power even more.

The topic including decklist and a few comments can be found here:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27465.0

[Phele]

Hi Kai!

I have seen your great result and I pretty much like your decklist but I am not sure if I am such a fan of Flame Vault in this deck. I have tried this kill befor in Gifts lists with Thirsts and Imperial Seal and I was also impressed, how easy it is to get the win combinations together. Anyway: I think in the new Dark Gifts variant I do prefer Tendrils main over Flame Vault for a couple of reasons:

1. Tendrils fits perfectly to the higher black count in this deck. Already including the third Underground Sea or a single basic Swamp make it much easier to get the needed double black together.

2. Tendrils fits perfectly to the Confidants. It helps out the sometimes high life loss you get by the confidants - which is just randomly dangerous, but sometimes it is.

3. Tendrils makes a much better use of the little beats of the confidants. After two hits by the little mage you just need an Tendrils for eight which is pretty easy to manage with Merchant Scrolls, Chain of Vapor and Rebuild maindeck.

4. Tendrils is much more difficult to hate. Time Vault leaves you even more vulnerable to Null Rod and even to Pithing Needle. As Null Rod hurts the Tendrils kill as well, it just hurts and cannot totally stop the kill.

5. As nice Time Vault can be in the control matchup and Flame Vault can be an (pretty expensive) option to get rid of Welder, Confidan, Shaman: Both are pretty dead slots in most of the matchups. The same counts for Tendrils, is occupies just one slot.

Have you ever tried a Tendrils main. What were your reasons not to include it. Congratulations to your great result and cu soon in Iserlohn, Karlsruhe or wherever.

Philip

[Gabethebabe]

Nice to see that at the end we´ve got an interesting discussion going on.

I haven´t got anything new to add, since after the last tournament I´ve not tested the deck any further.

In a Flamevault version I see Vampiric Tutor as an automatic inclusion. A two card combo wins you the game, so Vamp is quite obvious.

When playing traditional Gifts I would not quickly play Vamp. I´d rather let its card advantage engine do its work and find the moment to win. I prefer a third Scroll over Vamp. You generally don´t want to see vamp early game, unless you are in a matchup where a single Tinker for Colossus will win you the game (and in that case there is always the Scroll ==> Mystical ==> Tinker route, which is more likely anyway to happen than Vamp ==> Tinker)

The Wish vs. Tendrils discussion is also pretty interesting. I´ve seen strong arguments for both and really haven´t been able to make up my mind. Wish can do broken things and can be soo excellent in Gifts piles. It can be a Coercion at times to free the way for a Tinker. Versatility wins games. For the moment I will be accepting the fact that I need more to win the game through Tendrils.

[Luc]

@Phele:

I played Gifts in the last six tournaments I attended (which is about
once a month due to time matters) and made top8 in the last four.
5 out of 6 of these tournaments, i played Burning Wish maindeck.

I just wanted to test FlameVault in a tournament and I liked it.
I'm not saying I'm not returning to Wish/Tendrils but FlameVault has
a couple of advantages which are nicely summed up by Kowal in his
NY P9 Report which can be found here:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27283.0

1-3. Agreed, BUT take into account that a lot of games you will not
draw confidant, will get it countered or removed. In these games
FlameVault performs just as well whereas your strategy suffers.

4. I've got a Null Rod-proof win in Tinker/Collossus. FlameVault is immune to graveyard
hate which is a huge issue as people are siding Withered Wretched and Tormod's Crypt
increasingly. When playing FlameVault you just laugh because they wasted a card and
gift for draw/tutors and win the game.
Tendrils on the other hand is dependant on Will which uses the graveyard. A lot
of times Tormod's Crypt will give you a headache or at least slow you down.
Playing FlameVault makes it able to just ignore graveyard hate.

5. Agreed. Right now for me, the advantages of FlameVault justify the one "wasted" slot.

I never played Tendrils main but will instead of Burning Wish
when I decide to cut FlameVault.
Finally playing FlameVault I managed to win games that Tendrils
wouldnt have won. It's that simple. I suggest you try it out,
maybe it comes down to preferences.


@Gabethebabe

Running the Tendrils kill, Merchant Scroll may be the better option though it cannot find Will.

As stated above the next time Ill play the Tendrils kill, I would maindeck Tendrils over Burning Wish
as I have lost games because of 1R. There is a chance I'd maindeck both.

[Phele]

I agree that probably the way to go is, to play both: Tendrils and Wish. But I have to admit that I don't find room for both of them  Options to cut are Vampiric, Merchant Scroll #3 or Fact. But I really like all of them included. Merchant Scroll is just so gordious flexible that It is really hard to go under three of them. Especially as Im playing the whole toolbox Chain, F/I and Rebuild.

I also agree that Tendrils kill is more dependant on the graveyard than Flame-Vault. But with Tendrils main its much easier to go of with just a couple of moxen and a bounce. But for the 3BBR combination of wishing for Tendrils you usually need Will and Lotus. Another reason to maindeck Tendrils.

As said before, I love Flame-Vault as you do and have tested its stenghts for many times. Merchant Scroll gets just less important with that kill, for what many people prefer Thirst in that slot in Flame-Vault builds. Also I think that Imperial Seal is a solid choice when playing with Flame-Vault.

[sixth]

When playing traditional Gifts I would not quickly play Vamp. I´d rather let its card advantage engine do its work and find the moment to win. I prefer a third Scroll over Vamp. You generally don´t want to see vamp early game, unless you are in a matchup where a single Tinker for Colossus will win you the game (and in that case there is always the Scroll ==> Mystical ==> Tinker route, which is more likely anyway to happen than Vamp ==> Tinker)

I'm a big fan of merchant scroll as well, but Vampiric isn't only there to find Tinker. If you get an early game Vampiric, you can really start playing Gifts as an aggressive combo deck. Vampiric maindeck means having another direct Will / Lotus Tutor, who is also quite important to find the tendrils in your early Will Turns with limited access to Mana (Goldfishing Turn2/3). In traditional Gifts, you'd have to merchant for Mystical, and the Mystical for Tendrils, followed by a Brainstorm / whatever. Vampiric perfectly fits in the 3-Black that your Lotus is going to produce after you replayed it from your Graveyard in Will-Turns. It saves you 2 Blue, which you can use to Merchant for Chain of Vapor, and generate that critical storm..

Vampiric gives you the possibility to switch to a very agaggressivelaystyle, if your hand allows it, and to goldfish just as fast as other pure storm decks.

[ZeroGs]

This will be my very first post here on TMD, with that being said, I figured I'd bring this post back to the top. While I see some of us are still mourning the death of the "super-broken" FlameVault kill, though me myself being one who used it, I'm looking to change my usual BM Style gifts to something which through discussion here and also personal preference, which includes Dark Confidant.

Now that the meta is not only hating on welders/shamans/fishies but also that D. Confidant has been brought under the microscope. Is he still as viable? I know that the deck is not that highly dependant on him boosting your draws, but he is taking up slots that other draw spells would. Would a transformational SB help out in the matter? Something in the ballpark of including (Needles, Tormods Crypt)/TfK in exchange for Bob's?(this of course in being supported by not running B. Wish main).

Thanks for taking the time to read this, any feedback would be appreciated.

[Hi-Val]

Oh man, Bob is ASS. Like he's fine on the first turn when you can start it off, but I hate drawing it. It's good to see in the opening hand because then you can make a plan with it, but beyond that it just shows up as a bad surprise. I'd rather have Night's Whisper in its place, or even junk like Council of the Soratami. Merchant Scroll is absolutely better. Imagine you are in the midgame and you and your opponent are both drawing off the top. Would you rather have a guy that finally makes card advantage 3 turns down the line or would you want something that draws cards or does something NOW?

That said, Confidant is still a fine sideboard card in some decks, but I don't think it's deserving of a spot in any non-Fish maindeck.

[Phele]

Would you rather have a guy that finally makes card advantage 3 turns down the line or would you want something that draws cards or does something NOW?

Well, depends: When my opponent is low on life, Bob is also a beater so I would rather see him than Nights Whisper. This is something people are allways missing when comparing Whisper with Bob. After just one turn, Bob has generated the same card advantage that Whisper gives you, because he is still on the table AND you have gotten an extra card. This changes dramatically for sure, if he stays longer on the table.

Bob is so damn good, I don't find any other words. If you might haven't noticed: While everybody in the States seem to get so overexited with IT, Storm-Variants with Bob maindeck have reached uncountable top8 positions over here. He is a threat you have to be able to handle, otherwise games are pretty soon over by a small Tendrils. So I have to agree with ZeroGs, the hate is allready out there an maindeck darkblasts handle him pretty well.

For the Fish-variants: It's true that he is a great addition to these kind of decks. But he also plays an important role in all the EBA-Decks that are popping out around here. They play Negator, Meddling Mage and a lot of removal. I just built a Mask-list with him, where he fits imo perfectly. The list just won me a Library of Alexandria, so as you can see: There is much more room for innovation with Bob the ASS.

[Hi-Val]

When your deck is combo, and what deck isn't these days, seeing a few cards now >>> seeing more cards later. Playing Bob means that you must functionally devote 4 slots in your maindeck to slowing down and not winning right now. Also, the decks using it require specific cards, not general card advantage like Keeper in the past. I played Bob in the maindeck and SB of Gifts, one of the most combolicious control decks out there, and found that it just didn't help because I was searching for a specific sequence of cards like Tinker and instead of focused drawing, I was pulling up whatever crap my deck belched out at the time.

[Nehptis]

The jury is still out for me regarding the power of Bob.  However, I think he should be used in a very specific way.  I don't see him as a method to further or better accelerate a combo deck.  There are better cards out there which allow you to improve your hand as opposed to simply netting an extra random card each turn.  As I see it, when Bob hits the table you are forcing the opponent into a decision; Win soon or Change their game plan to deal with Bob.  In the right deck I think that his beats and card advantage engine can not be ignored by opponents.

I recently made Top 8 with a Bob based deck.  It has 4 Bobs, 4 Wretch, Tinker/DSC and 1 TOA.  As you can read in my report other than my totally bizarre loss to Zombies the deck performed well and had the most trouble with Grow.  However, I think that my in-experience with the deck and boarding decisions attributed to my losses.

The deck runs very smoothly.  Its mana base is extremely stable and wins can come from multiple fronts.  Including:

1) Oops, Tinker / DSC win that could come through Draw / Tutors or through Bob advantage
2) Fish type beats with Wretch / Bob which is pre-empted or followed by a small TOA
3) Oops , TOA / Will wins

I plan to run it again soon with only 1 change, swapping the Impulse for a SD Top.  Here's the report.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=28302.0

[Bum_of_keld]

(DISCLAIMER: I have been trying to find a drain deck I like to go with my new playset for the last two months and have not really found satisfaction with what I have played, though I have liked a lot of what I have found. I really like the idea of dark confidant, even if his power isn’t meant for drain based control, I wanted to at least give it a chance and see if something might be done. I don’t know if this really belongs in this thread, if not just let me know)


So, Bob is a draw engine that works best when you have many turns of little activity that threatens to actually take you out of the game, but instead involves resource wars where you both are utilizing your cards to develop and maintain board positions.. I think we can all agree that the great one is at his best when he is just sitting there drawing an extra card a turn and at his worst when you use your resources on your main phase to drop him only to see your opponent when in a turn or two before you can set up your defenses phid style and maintain control of the game.

So what do we need to do to make Bob work outside of fish and the stax matchups?

We need tools that make it so we can make it to the point where the opponent lost his early advantage of not playing a card like confidant (one that provides gradual overwhelming advantage and replacing them with cards that trump up early development (ritual etc)).

We need to have the resources to find (if necessary), play, and protect Bob with enough left over to make sure an opponent cant use this window of opportunity to resolve something broken and take us out of the game.

The tools we need also must address the point where bob is going the distance ever so slowly for us turn after turn and your opponent is throwing whatever they can muster at us.

And we need access to tools that answer powerful late game strategies of our opponents like an active welder and a lot of lands or a full grave and recoup capabilities etc.


 We can all agree that the number one effect for solving these problems is counter target spell. Immediately FOW and mana drain jump into mind. Additionally, mana leak, Misdirection, and duress stand out as additional spells that serve very well especially with the early game part of the bob plan and at least have some function into the late game which as far as I’m concerned is nearly a prerequisite for any disruption/interaction spell placed into the deck.

So when your hand has bob, mox, land, force, blue card, decent two other cards (land demonic tutor), it’s obvious that you are in good shape. Your game plan from the get go is drop confidant and ride it to victory as best as you can. We can all see that this is incredibly powerful when it comes up. The problem is not every hand can be so blessed. So what kind of draw engine can you play that fits into the theme of drawing a burst of early cards to try and get confidant rolling when you don’t draw amazingly and works well at setting up protection when you need it as you enter the later game.

Anyone who has played MDGifts or at least read about knows that I might as well have just DEFINED the power of merchant scroll. The idea of getting and protecting an early ancestral recall is step number one most hands and situations for MDG. As a result they play a lot of cheap countermagic to try and protect its early threat and ride its advantage to victory. The eventual plan is not the same, but the strengths of the scroll “engine� seem to fit the confidant strategy like a glove.

So we need our main proven counterspells supplemented by a few early game powerhouses, the maximum number of confidants and merchant scrolls to set up for the mid game with as little stress on our development as possible, and what else?

1. We have all seemed to stumble into the fact that the early tinker backed with a quick burst of cards and cheap disruption is a great way to “steal� wins and just all around incredibly powerful. Tinker colossus has a lot of synergy with the shell that is logically optimal for dark confidant.

2. The fact that we are playing for the long(er) game than most lists out there means that we need good efficient answer to late game powerhouse threats that faster decks can just attempt to shrug of early when they aren’t as powerful and win before they can come into their own, principally active welder, opposing confidants, and perhaps a full grave in some matchups. Such efficient tools are darkblast for all the critters out there, the amazing pithing needle for all its amazingness, and tormond’s crypt which you all know is a great tool for this format. We also probably need at least one bounce spell which we have easy access to any ways.

3. We need to be able to put the game away once we have reached the stage where bob has outclassed our opponent but we may be falling into the danger zone. Here a lot of people turn to tendrils to efficiently turn our big advantage into a big will and instant kill without a hitch. This isn’t the only place people are turning to tendrils ability to utilize tendrils ability  to turn one turn advantages into the W. (burning slaver, etc.) But here is the thing, doing that really requires something like gifts to really stack the grave and hand for an easy kill or a lot of turn to accumulate the resources necessary. It also either requires red mana for the wish and sideboard space or tendrils main for another almost dead slot. And it may even require other support cards like an extra bounce for storm. I am not sure if the card belongs or not, it certainly is powerful but it feels like it warps the deck in a direction that would be better suited to a gifts engine, not a confidant engine.

Maxx turned towards the power of tinker alone and decided that he would use angel to make sure he didn’t kill himself when an extra force is flipped or something. Again it uses up a slot. It may be a necessary evil, I don’t know yet.

Thirdly there is just utilizing what already most likely belongs in a deck like this, tinker colossus for a quick kill when the time comes, darkblast if things get hairy, and brainstorm when it is convenient to protect yourself from confidant damage.

4. What kind of tutor/broken presence do we have. Certain pieces are unquestionable, time walk and Ywin. Things like vampiric tutorand FoF or a gifts all depend on the other choices. You have to flesh out your deck to try and meet the other pieces so that they have a synergy as a whole so if you are going to play the tendrils, maybe gifts belongs etc.

Depending on how we decide to answer those questions fleshes out the rest of the deck.

Here is what my thought exercise and everyone’s contributions to the deck and similar projects has lead me to:

Draw Go 1,000,000.0
Permission 12
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Leak
1 Mis-D

Draw Engines 14
4 Dark Confidant
4 Brainstorm
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral recall
1 Fact or Fiction

Broke 7
1 Tinker
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vamp Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

Interaction 3
1 Rebuild
1 Darkblast
1 Pithing Needle

Mana sources 24
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Tolarion Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea


This build: I decided that once the initial decision has been made beyond base counterspells and dark confidant and brokenness, I needed to make the rest of the deck match that decision. Merchant scroll as I said has a great power early game and gives rise to quick tinker kills and early game position, so having the ability to search out a quick tinker makes a lot of sense.

The deck is based on the late game so the efficient answers to both late and early threats that can answer multiple threats were chosen for disruption. The fact that they are randomly very powerful early means that early search is yet more powerful.

The deck wants to see B early and it wants the ability to get black to stick around. So a swamp and four deltas made sense. It is rarely going to need a lot of generic so mana vault isn’t very useful in a deck like this. The same could be said in some regards to mana crypt, but its early game power isn’t really questionable, so it stays unless it tests badly (doubtful).

Mana leak over duress and for the most part mis-D. Its great early against every deck whereas duress and mis-D are more narrow. And even though duress is incredible in the prevalent combo matchup, I thought the blue count was pretty low and the early black mana is needed for other things and you can’t always have the swamp or jet so stressing the base was a risk I did not want to take preboard.

No gifts because the deck is not focused at all in its build on developing and utilizing an early crushing will so the synergy is not really there. Fact on the other hand can provide scroll target number two to keep going with the plan of huge advantage play confident and parity until they can not keep up anymore if AR wasn’t enough or confidant still has not shown.
Two cards I want to fit, tormond’s crypt and a chain of vapor, perhaps one or the other for a leak, but I cant figure out what else to cut, but a resolved oath would cause this list all sorts of fits even with a darkblast.
Testboard
4 Duress
1 Massacre
1 Rebuild
1 Tormond’s Crypt
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Hurkyl’s recall
2 Old Men
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Gifts Ungiven


The list is not something much different from what people have already developed, I just wanted to focus it on the power of confidant and not try and utilize his power as a support for other established strategies. Again I am not sure if this really belongs tacked on here, but since this is just a thought exercise and not the introduction to a thought out tested and refined new deck, I did not really think it warranted its own discussion. I’m off to try and convince some locals that type one is cool, but this is jersey so testing against grow will only get you so far you know