[Discussion] GrowATog (GAT) / Tog

[Evenpence]

We're all thinking it, and I'm going to start it:

Discussion:  Can GAT and Tog make a comeback in the metagame?

The decks are three years old (or close to), and it seems like they were long gone and dead - until this recent Waterbury.  The finals in Waterbury were GAT against Tog, with GAT coming out on top.

These decks are like Gifts in many ways (combo finish, yawg's-will abusive, etc), but Tog is much more vunerable to graveyard hate (Tormod's Crypt), and GAT is known for not doing well against stax (which the winning deck sidestepped throughout the whole tournament).

Also, strikingly, the winning deck was won with only TWO MANA DRAINS!  (one was in the sideboard to wish for if needed or board in).

Discuss.

[sa17dk]

Well one thing I can say about the Mana Drain thing is that it shouldnt surprise you. GAT doesnt have much to drain into anyways, since most of its spells are usually U or 1U/1B/etc.

[Lunar]

Can GAT and Tog make a comeback in the metagame?

well they just took 1st/2nd at day 1 of waterbury...what do you think?

Reading both of their reports should give you all the information you need to know whether these choices are viable in your specific meta. Bascially...do you expect Stax? Each deck choice was also already laid out in their reports, so discussion there is probably a moot point...

[Kowal]

I still consider myself to be somewhat outside the loop (moreso than I usually am, anyway) but here's my thoughts:

Regarding Tog:
Grand Inquisitor's arguments pre-Waterbury about Accumulated Knowledge and Intuition being good were mostly focused on the argument that unlike Thirst for Knowledge, Intuition/AK didn't necessitate running bad artifacts or discarding expansion.  This is similar to the argument Smmenen produced for cutting Thirst for Knowledge from his Gifts list.  While I disagree it's better than Thirst, that doesn't change the fact it's still a viable draw engine.  That said, Tog has no inherent advantages over a list like that Grand Inquisitor made top sixteen with that not only abuses the Intuition/AK engine, but has far more opportunities to go broken as well as eliminates the necessity of running garbage like Psychatog.

Regarding GAT:
It's just Oath, but with fewer dead slots, and it doesn't have to find Orchards to beat most of the upper tier.  If Oath is viable, obviously GAT is viable.

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

Regarding GAT:
It's just Oath, but with fewer dead slots, and it doesn't have to find Orchards to beat most of the upper tier. If Oath is viable, obviously GAT is viable.

I really like the way you put this. GAT also really has a much better game vs. other drain decks especially Slaver. One thing is GAT was definetly more of a "SUPRISE" deck. If people get comfortable about expecting it I highly doubt it can keep up with lets say Mr. Sundering Titan nuking three lands.

I feel the creature combo of assembling a Psychatog and a Cunning Wish to cast Berserk on a Tog, is a little worse then Oath and Orchard. But certainly you aren't going to draw an 8 Mana dude with GAT.

[Lunar]

GAT also really has a much better game vs. other drain decks especially Slaver

but how much worse of a game vs Stax?

[Penguin]

GAT also really has a much better game vs. other drain decks especially Slaver

but how much worse of a game vs Stax?

Oh oh I know the answer to that question.  GAT gets Thrashed severely and unmercifully.  You can probably bet that GAT wont make as strong as an impact as it first was because when people spend $4,000 to demolish the deck and when there is still a very large amount of those people playing that pile of $4,000 cards it will not become as prominent as it once was.

The only way I see GAT becoming a high-class candidate is if it bypasses all Stax (such as Waterbury), or is in a desolated field of Stax (local metas) because it certainly will not make much of an impact in Chicago as its Workshop infested, New England as it is becoming New Chicago instead with lots of Workshops migrating there as I believe 1/8th or so of Waterbury was Workshop.dec, and Richmond...well I do not know anything about that particular city.

[jCoKn]

Seconded @ Kowal, my deck would have been far better off -2 Psychatog, -2 Deed, +4 better cards ... I boarded them out all day for tinker/colossus/stuff simply because they're not as bad. I'll start a new thread soon enough with what I think the deck could potentially evolve into, and while it isn't Tog per se, it's very reminiscent thereof. I pretty much present my view on Psychatog in my tournament report. AK/Intuition is and was amazing, and I drew my inspiration for this deck largely from a couple random games on MWS playing against GI's AK-tendrils. The reason I wasn't playing Gifts Ungiven is very similar to the reason Kowal defined as TfK's drawback - the deck skewing elements. I don't like building my deck around its draw engine, I want the draw engine to work around my deck... if that makes any sense to you guys.

[HuntedWumpus]

Tog was never dead, you cant "Kill" it because it is a deck based around resilience and adaptability to any situation, the reason it was not seeing play was because its harder matches were more present in the meta, furthermore it's not particularly easy to play, sometimes requiring some "ball out" plays; however it loves to capitalize on the opponents errors.

Regarding GAT:
It's just Oath, but with fewer dead slots, and it doesn't have to find Orchards to beat most of the upper tier.  If Oath is viable, obviously GAT is viable.

Exactly.

I would look for more players dusting off the togs and bringing them out. My reasoning behind this apparent lack of dominant Manadrain deck looking at the full meta. If I can't decide, I just play tog, or often I choose it because of its strengths.

Now, it also must be asserted that the additional use of tendrils is amazing and adds a new level to the deck. I am curious to see what turn he has built enough to tendril off, or if its just another yawg will win. I thing that I am going to run 1 Tinker/Dsc and 1 Tendrils and maybe 1 tog, (def 1 in the board) as my win condition now.

[G-A-T 177]

GAT also really has a much better game vs. other drain decks especially Slaver

but how much worse of a game vs Stax?

Oh oh I know the answer to that question.  GAT gets Thrashed severely and unmercifully.  You can probably bet that GAT wont make as strong as an impact as it first was because when people spend $4,000 to demolish the deck and when there is still a very large amount of those people playing that pile of $4,000 cards it will not become as prominent as it once was.

This is true, but not quite as true as everyone thinks.  Workshop is by far Gat's worst matchup, but not nearly unwinnable.  I can't claim to have tested enough games to throw out percentages, but Roland and I have been testing the matchup for quite a while.  Basically what it comes down to is: stax needs to throw out 2 or more lock pieces within the first 3 turns.  Crucible strip is great against Gat, but won't singlehandedly win stax the game by a long shot.  If stax can get the crucible strip combined with either chalice zero, smokestack, or either of the spheres, then things start to go down the drain for the Gat player.  On the other hand, if Gat can come out quick with a first or second turn dryad, and back it up with a force of will or daze (ever notice how often stax players go workshop---> 3sphere/ crucible, or workshop mox----> stack?) --or-- if stax fails to resolve enough artifacts in the first few turns to lock Gat down, then things are looking fine.  Overall, if i thought there was going to be such a high chance of facing stax, I would've either played a completely different build, or (more likely) not even played the deck at all.  As everyone has pointed out, I was lucky enough not to have to face any  .   But getting back to the point, I don't consider a pairing against workshops an auto-loss.     

[nataz]

Regarding GAT:
It's just Oath, but with fewer dead slots, and it doesn't have to find Orchards to beat most of the upper tier.  If Oath is viable, obviously GAT is viable.

Exactly.

Except Oath doesn't roll to stax.

Oath has to cast 1 spell to turn the stax match-up into a race. GAT has to cast a string of spells, after resolving a tog/dyrad, to turn the match-up into a race. 

[xrizzo]

Regarding GAT:
It's just Oath, but with fewer dead slots, and it doesn't have to find Orchards to beat most of the upper tier.  If Oath is viable, obviously GAT is viable.

Exactly.

I disagree with both of you...

GAT is not just like oath.  Yes, they both pay 1G for a green card which is a focus of the deck, but that isn't everything.  GAT dislikes playing both Stax and Fish, both strong contenders still. 

Head to head, I think Oath has the advantage.  Against the field, I think Oath has a better matchup against the better decks.

[Vegeta2711]

Regarding GAT:
It's just Oath, but with fewer dead slots, and it doesn't have to find Orchards to beat most of the upper tier.  If Oath is viable, obviously GAT is viable.

Exactly.

I disagree with both of you...

GAT is not just like oath.  Yes, they both pay 1G for a green card which is a focus of the deck, but that isn't everything.  GAT dislikes playing both Stax and Fish, both strong contenders still. 

Head to head, I think Oath has the advantage.  Against the field, I think Oath has a better matchup against the better decks.

Back up a minute. How does GAT dislike playing Fish? It's generally known that Fish dies to anything bigger than an X/3 creature. In addition GAT runs more countermagic generally. I can't see how this match is really bad for the GAT player barring a god draw from Fish.

[Sgt. Pepper]

Regarding GAT:
It's just Oath, but with fewer dead slots, and it doesn't have to find Orchards to beat most of the upper tier.  If Oath is viable, obviously GAT is viable.

I find this comment to be really funny because awhile ago people said stuff like:

"If your going to run a 1G kill card just play Oath of Druids."
"Why pay 1G for a 1/1 creature when you can pay the same for Oath and just win?"

Not that it can't be true, I just think that people are really quick to jumping to conclusions after just 1 tournament.

[cophos]

"If your going to run a 1G kill card just play Oath of Druids."
"Why pay 1G for a 1/1 creature when you can pay the same for Oath and just win?"

Why play a deck which dies to stax?
Why not play a deck with a fast clock but the abbility to play proactive diruption such as Chalice and Choke instead?

I really can't see many good reasons to play GAT over Oath right now.

[Kowal]

For the reasons I just mentioned above.

Also, I know I'm going to catch hell for this, but in all the testing I've done with workshops since Kevin Cron reminded us Stax is still viable after Trinisphere's restriction, if you're running Tangle Wires you shouldn't be losing to Oath.  It's not a problem matchup.  They are giving you permanents, which is all the go-ahead you need to go full steam and crush their permanent-light deck.  In addition, most traditional stax maindecks pack maindeck Seal of Cleansing and occasionally even Swords to Plowshares, while most Uba Stax pack multiple maindeck Duplicant (albeit without the benefit of having Tangle Wire as well)

In that regard, GAT would have the advantage, given that it doesn't keep feeding your opponent things to tap and sac, lacks any viable targets for those Seals of Cleansing, and even features fewer nonbasics making Crucible much less threatening.

I feel the argument for Oath is only really viable against Control Slaver, in which having a considerably less consistant/reliable win in favor of killing before the Mindslavers start getting activated is a very prominent issue.  With Control Slaver not being quite as central to the format, I would rather be playing GAT than Oath.

[Scott_Limoges]

I'll try to conceptualize the game plans of Oath and GAT, because they are remarkably similar, and generalizations can be further made.

- First Oath and GAT drop their 1G spell on turn 1. 
- Next both decks attempt to dig through their deck to find their respective stability spells/combo pieces. 

At this point, Oath uses up resources to find the necessary combo piece while GAT builds its resources to finish strong.  Therein lies the different between Oath and GAT!  Oath can brake out with an unbeatable turn 1 play; however, its game plan weakens turn by turn.  In difference, GAT starts slow and builds its tempo turn by turn, especially Josh's build which is similar to a fish.

Because of this nature, its apparent why Oath is strong against workshops and GAT is strong against control.  Workshops deploy their game plan fast and then mellow out as turns pass.  Early game, Oath can match that speed and control the game making workshop a favorable matchup.  If I recall correctly, seal of cleansing and swords were added to workshop to help against Oath strategies, not because they fit workshops game plan.  In contrast, control establishes its game plan slowly and builds stability as turns progress.  GAT can capitalize on slow starts by stealing tempo and turns away from control through disruption and a fast clock.

So which deck is better for tournaments?  It obviously depends on the metagame, but given a balanced field, the stable/consistent deck usually triumphs.

[nataz]

Also, I know I'm going to catch hell for this, but in all the testing I've done with workshops since Kevin Cron reminded us Stax is still viable after Trinisphere's restriction, if you're running Tangle Wires you shouldn't be losing to Oath...In addition, most traditional stax maindecks pack maindeck Seal of Cleansing and occasionally even Swords to Plowshares, while most Uba Stax pack multiple maindeck Duplicant (albeit without the benefit of having Tangle Wire as well)

I certainly agree with the bolded statement, but who besides Travis runs wires + a 5 color manabase in NE. (BTW, Travis ate my soul while I was playing Oath day two with a stax deck that featured Tangle Wire, SOR, Seal, STP, Ray of Revalation, and Welders *ouch*). The last time I even saw that before waterbury was a Chang list a couple of months ago (I think?).

I don't buy the argument that STP and Dup hurt Oath more then Gat, because while Gat has more creatures, it takes longer for those creatrures to win, leaving them open for multiple dup activations/pleanty of time for STP to target.

Either way, while its true that a correctly build stax deck can tear Oath apart, most stax decks are not built that way. Waterbury of course probably changed all that, and now may be the time for Stax decks in general to throw wire back into the list. If they do, then Oath gots the problems.

[Rapalaman1]

It seems like shortly after Fifth Dawn was printed people were playing GAT with Night's Whispers. I remember trying it myself and if I remember correctly it wasn't that bad.
Now obviously, his list is alot different from a list that would play Whispers, but it seems like that version died not too long after it's innovation. Is this because Gifts is better in 2 of the 4 Whispers slots or is the deck designed entirely different?

[Ultima]

Night's whisper was tested as a draw engine since gush wasn't there anymore, it was tied a a possible replacement.  Gifts was later added because the point of GAT was to play a fast broken yawg will to end the game and make your men huge. Gifts did this as a single spell rather than using cantrips and whispers which could take forever or stall out.

In other words, would you rather spend time playing sleights and whispers or play gifts getting regrowth, demonic tutor, ancestral, mystical tutor or something along those lines.  Additionally, don't forget that a resolved gifts on its own is 4.5 points of damage for tog.

[Andreas]

That said, Tog has no inherent advantages over a list like that Grand Inquisitor made top sixteen with that not only abuses the Intuition/AK engine, but has far more opportunities to go broken as well as eliminates the necessity of running garbage like Psychatog.

I could not find the list you are mentioning. Would you mind pointing me to it?

Seconded @ Kowal, my deck would have been far better off -2 Psychatog, -2 Deed, +4 better cards ... I boarded them out all day for tinker/colossus/stuff simply because they're not as bad.

What would these 4 better cards be your opinion? Tinker and Darksteel Colossus probably are strong candidates for at least two of these slots?

[Colonel Sanders]

We're all thinking it, and I'm going to start it:

Discussion:  Can GAT and Tog make a comeback in the metagame?

The decks are three years old (or close to), and it seems like they were long gone and dead - until this recent Waterbury.  The finals in Waterbury were GAT against Tog, with GAT coming out on top.

These decks are like Gifts in many ways (combo finish, yawg's-will abusive, etc), but Tog is much more vunerable to graveyard hate (Tormod's Crypt), and GAT is known for not doing well against stax (which the winning deck sidestepped throughout the whole tournament).

Also, strikingly, the winning deck was won with only TWO MANA DRAINS!  (one was in the sideboard to wish for if needed or board in).

Discuss.

My friends and I had a discussion about the Psychatog decks out there. I think personally that "comeback" is a hard word to use in this situation. The psychatog decks havent died out due to uselessness, I think it just became unpopular. I do however, like the decks that I have seen and read about in the forums. It seems that these types of decks will start to become popular once again.

Also: Congrats to GAT for a good job at Waterbury. I was the looser with the jesters cap.

[jCoKn]

@ the 4 extra slots question: I'm currently trying Tinker/guy and am playing white over green for maindeck swords to plowshares, which so far have been testing quite well. when i have a well refined build of what i'm currently testing i'll post it in its own thread.

As to GAT performance: The metagame has warped so much since the olden days of GAT... newly printed cards, new archetypes, and new banned/restricted lists totally warp our view on how GAT should theoretically perform... Same goes for psychatog. I think we need to see more GAT in the format before we really press any final judgments on it viability. Be a pioneer like Josh, tread the workshop-laden thin ice of Vintage and succeed as he did. One measly example can't have us all making or breaking our minds over GAT, as Dr. Sylvan says : NEED MORE INPUT!

Now don't call me no GAT expert, but despite their casting costs, Dryad and Oath could not be more different. Even the main focal strengths of each deck is different - combo/control vs. aggro/control... hell, GAT plays main phase instants like whoa. Also, GAT runs less dead cards but Oath is more likely to go god-hand-oops-i-win. There is risk involved in both, so it all depends on personal preference i suppose.

EDIT: I also agree with Kowal that good Stax players should not have too much of a problem fending off Oath.

[Whatever Works]

I love GAT and Limoges and Me had spent months testing lists that were VERY similar to the winning list. However, it always came down to the fact that the deck couldnt beat stax. This is just the decks fatal flaw. There are ALOT of dead cards vs. stax game 1... And its very difficult to beat staxs if your not on the play in games 2 and 3... Oath also doesnt have the ability to run red or white so the sideboard vs. stax tends to also be limited severally. No offence to the winner at all (Josh played amazing)... But GAT can play perfectly vs. a mediocre stax player and I would still take the Stax matchup to win more then 60% of the matches... (Regardless of the build)...

When GAT gets even 45% vs. Stax I would consider it tier 1... However, right now it remains a borderline tier 1/2 deck that was the PERFECT metagame choice considering his ability to avoid the death blows in STAX...


Kyle L.

[nataz]

If GAT was so good against Drains, but stax was the foil, why hasn't it been doing well for the past year+ in NE? Everyone keeps saying that GAT is the obvious choice vs. Fish and Drains, so why hasn't it won like every Waterbury that I've ever been to. Why doesn't anyone play it/Why is it so amazing that Josh did?

I was always under the assumption that GAT was just too underpowered with out Gush, and I don't see how things like GIfts or Nights whisper could ever be a replacement. I would say that very few people thought that GAT was playable over the past 2 years, so what I am wondering is why is now different?

This waterbury was basicly a mind fuck, and I'm curious to see how NE type 1 reacts. WS.dec was the top played deck, no one played CS, Gifts.dec didn't solidify into a few obvious lists, but instead fragmented even more, and GAT is suddenly now playable?

[Scott_Limoges]

GAT appears to be very underplayed, perhaps in favor for glammor decks like CS and gifts.    The deck isn't as flashy as CS or gifts, but isn't as budget as fish or food-chain goblins (if budget matters).  Discussion on TMD about GAT has been non-existant for about a year since 5th dawn was released.

GAT has seemed to disappear since forbidden orchard was printed and I left the northeast.
If I still resided in the northeast, you could bet what deck I'd still be playing.

[Evenpence]

I also agree with Kowal that good Stax players should not have too much of a problem fending off Oath.

I cannot speak for 5c stax, but in my experience, Oath has always been Ubastax's worst matchup.  When they throw down Oath with forbidden orchard, your options are very limited.  Games 2 and 3 are always better, but unless you're running mazes PLUS duplicants, you still are on the losing end unless they just stall out.  This is the one game that being on the play hurts when you have no idea what they're playing, because no one lays down Chalice for 2 as a priority.

As for GAT, it seems that the general majority of the TMD community is saying:

1)  GAT is still viable.
2)  Straight TOG might not be.
3)  GAT loses to stax.
4)  GAT wins against mana-drain based decks.

Anymore points that everyone wants to add to this little list, or meaningful disagreements? 
How are GAT's matchups against decks we haven't really talked about?

Here's a short list:

1)  Control Slaver
2)  Belcher
3)  Storm Combo Variants
4)  Dragon
5)  Gifts
6)  THE MIRROR
7)  Stax, Oath, Fish (more detailed analysis and less repetition)

[nataz]

6)  THE MIRROR

I'd assume 50/50 

[Evenpence]

Well, maybe not the exact mirror.  You know what I'm saying.  I still call 5c the mirror.  What cards really could have an impact there, etc?

[Harlequin]

Another point to bring up in that Oath vs GAT compairison is...
How good is GATs sideboard?
Oath has sideboard answers to nearly all it's problems, not the least of wich is droping in 2 or 3 more creatures... esp powerhouses like triskellion, and pristine angel, irridecent angel to face off against welder/dupe or fish packin swords to plow and waterfront bouncers. 
Or even hydra and woodripper!
I am definatly no expert about GAT, but what silver bullets does it run on the side? doesnt it mostly have a wish board?