Welkin effects

[dandan]

Similar but different to the Sorcery Bursts thread, I think there is considerable room to use the mighty (fetch a card named ....) Welkin Hawk effect on non-creature cards.

Consider the mighty half-Shock

Welkin Lightning
R
Sorcery (I'm a tad worried about power level)
Do 1 damage to target creature or player
If Welkin Lightning is put into any graveyard from play, you may search your library for a Welkin Lightning card, reveal that card to all players, and put it into your hand. Shuffle your library afterwards.

OK you can cast Arc Lightning for R+R+R if you like but don't complain when your library gets stripped of all direct damage (probably an advantage). This would be too weak at 1R (See Guildpact) but I is worrying good at R. I guess it could go to 1R and 2 damage although I would prefer it to be a natural bane to the mighty Hawk.

Likewise
G +1/+1 or a vanilla 1/1
B Discard a card (could be add B to your mana pool - just for Mind's Desire and Storm decks)
U Twiddle (hell, they printed Gigadrowse!)
W Test of Faith for 1 damage

Note that all of these cards have the drawback that they are only good if you pack 4 of them. Cantrips cost more but few have found favour plus cantrips can be burnt if not useful, whereas burning a Welkin card spell just gets you another Welkin spell

Current version
Welkin Lightning

Sorcery
Do 1 damage to target creature
You may search your library for a Welkin Lightning card, reveal that card to all players, and put it into your hand. Shuffle your library afterwards.

Welkin Growth

Instant?
Target creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn
You may search your library for a Welkin Growth, reveal that card to all players, and put it into your hand. Shuffle your library afterwards.

Welkin Tendrils

Sorcery
Target opponent loses 1 life, you gain 1 life
You may search your library for a Welkin Tendrils, reveal that card to all players, and put it into your hand. Shuffle your library afterwards.
Sparing you from death is not always mercy

Welkin Disrupt

Instant
Counter target instant or sorcery spell unless its controller pays 1.
You may search your library for a Welkin Disrupt, reveal that card to all players and put it in your hand. Shuffle your library afterwards.
The intelligent know what to remember, the wise know what to forget.

Welkin Faith

Instant
Prevent the next 1 damage that would be dealt to target creature this turn, and put a +1/+1 counter on that
creature for each 1 damage prevented this way.
You may search your library for a Welkin Faith, reveal that card to all players, and put it into your hand. Shuffle your library afterwards.

[combo_dude]

Is it not better templating to tack the search clause onto part of the card's effect? e.g. "...deals 1 damage to target creature or player. You may search your library..." seems better; the "put into a graveyard from play" clause seems awkward on a sorcery.

[jro]

The templating is definitely wrong, since a sorcery is never "in play".  Regarding power level, I don't think that casting Arc Lightning for RRR with this is the problem; the problem is doing 1 over the course of multiple (even discontinuous) turns.  That is, the card is not so much like Pyromatics as it is like a restricted Searing Touch with free buyback that you can only buyback 3 times.  So you can 4-for-1 your opponent's X/1 creatures whenever they get played.  I don't think a cost of 1R for 1 damage would be inappropriate, although it would probably knock this down from a staple to a role-player.

The thing that I really like about all these cards is that there's an inherent tension in it: you want to play the card ASAP, as drawing a second one is basically useless.  That's what I think the real drawback to these cards is: once you've drawn one, you effectively have 3 dead draws in your deck.  Perhaps that might lead to playing these as 2x or 3x instead of 4?

[Jacob Orlove]

That black one is broken.

These would be a lot fairer (and could be made a lot stronger) if they put the copy on top of the library, rather than in hand.

[Ephraim]

The thing that I really like about all these cards is that there's an inherent tension in it: you want to play the card ASAP, as drawing a second one is basically useless.  That's what I think the real drawback to these cards is: once you've drawn one, you effectively have 3 dead draws in your deck.  Perhaps that might lead to playing these as 2x or 3x instead of 4?

I don't necessarily see that as a drawback.  On one hand, because you can get to them at any time, they're sort of dead draws.  On the other hand, if you have reason to cast this right away, you get to thin your deck.  The green and black ones in particular are almost never wrong to cast right away, so you get to pay GGGG, get 4 1/1 creatures, and you're suddenly playing with a 56-card deck.

[asmoranomardicodais]

Make it read:

"During your upkeep, if ~this~ is in your graveyard, you may remove this from the game. If you do, search for a copy of it, and put it on top of your library."

Then you could bump up the power level by a good amount, since it kills draws.

[dandan]

Sorry but the whole point to this series is the Welkin effect. I agree the Black one is broken (I had enough doubts when writing the initial post to add a second far, far weaker option although that one is probably too narrow for such a utility cycle). Black could certainly do with a different effect - good old 'opponent loses 1 life, you gain 1 life'?

I've adjusted the templating, I rather lazily just used Welkin Hawk' wording.

Which Green one should be go for? Both +1/+1 and vanilla 1/1 creation IMHO are fine flavour and power level wise. I guess the creature maker dovetails with Wizards current sets well and there are a lot of G variants already although the +1/+1 version is a very good creature combat trick (although a touch White)

Is the Red one too good?

Probably.

Perhaps if you could target only creatures?

However, if you draw a second one the power level is diminished and seeing as you almost certainly would always run 4 or none, the chance of drawing a second one is very high. In addition

[Ephraim]

although the +1/+1 version is a very good creature combat trick (although a touch White)

Although I still dislike the ease with which these cards trim down the size of your deck, I wanted to comment on this point.  Note that Battlegrowth was printed in Mirrodin block.  That's not that long ago and is basically what you're considering.

I would like to see these have Kicker or something.  Increase the power of the ability fractionally if you must (or not, they're still pretty good), but charge or more for the Welkin effect.  I really think it's too much.

[dandan]

I think the power level is really only an issue for the Red one. The Green one would be awesome in Limited but in Limited you are unlikely to have 4 of them in your deck (hell, you could draft them if you have nothing better to do)

Note that I have changed Welkin Lightning to only target creatures. You can no longer burn someone out with it. Historically Constructed decks dislike Burn spells that can't finish an opponent.

These thin out your library no more than a slew of cheap cantrips, and with the cantrips you have a better chance of drawing a 'business' spell, which is usually the aim of thinning your deck. Having said that, the Blue one may have to be changed to just tap something as using a Welkin Twiddle costs just U to dump 4 cards in the GY and thin the library by a further 3 cards, plus tap/untap something - way too good. I was looking purely at the spell rather than the possible efect on gameplay. The others cost RRRR, BBBB, GGGG or WWWW to do 4 Welkins so I don't think the thinning is an issue with the non-Blue cards.

[Jacob Orlove]

Green would be really savage as +1/+1 in limited if you get more than 2, but it would be borderline broken as 1/1s in constructed (seriously!), so I think the mini-giant growth is fine.

Also, battlegrowth was a counter, not a temporary bonus.

edit: the blue one is still pretty strong--you can hold off creatures on turns 2-3, and then wrath them away. I like all of these, although they're certainly good.

[dandan]

Yes, I agree that mini-Giant Growth is probably safer than a 1/1 maker (although White got a 1W that made 2 1/1s without any problems)

As far as holding off Weenies, Sun Droplet would probably work better than the Blue Welkin although I have seen Icys around so I may be underestimating the effect. Gigadrowse is as cheap, harder to counter and far far stronger in the late game but I do agree that I'd certainly consider the Blue one in any U/x deck.

Incidently, instead of tapping, the Blue one could be the remove a card from your library effect from the Focus Mind thread
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=26905.0

Focus Mind

Instant
Search your library for a card and remove it from the game, then search your library for a card called Focus Mind and put it in your hand and then shuffle your library.
The intelligent know what to remember, the wise know what to forget.

[asmoranomardicodais]

I like that idea a lot dandan, that makes the blue one of these really interesting.

[dandan]

Agreed, The Blue one will be Welkin Focus Mind

I think we need some names!

[jeek]

Agreed, The Blue one will be Welkin Focus Mind

I think we need some names!

Isn't that a bit too similar to the "Focus Mind" card in that other thread? Surely you can be more creative than that.

[Norm4eva]

Why is the Red one creatures only now?  4 damage for RRRR isn't spectacular.  Compare it to Violent Eruption (1RRR Instant : -this- deals 4 damage divided as you choose among any number of target creatures and/or players.  Madness 1RR) which doesn't really see any play.  It might make it better than the rest of them, but in cycles such as this one card invariably stands out.  Especially as a Sorcery, I don't see any reason to restrict it to creatures.

[Jacob Orlove]

The ability to play these one at a time over several turns is huge. Why make the red one unnecessarily good?

[dandan]

The Red one would probably be too good if it could hit players too. It is still a good card as it is but probably too good if it could burn someone out too.

[Norm4eva]

I guess I just hate burn spells that don't say "creature or player".  I get that this one's a big deal, as it provides a 'recurring' answers to every annoying card that starts with Goblin (Lackey, Welder, Raging etc) among other things.  If no one else cares that it's a 1cc burn spell that can't go to the dome, then I can concede my point.  I just don't think it's that big a deal.

[dandan]

As a Red 'cantrip' for R, it is 2 mana less than Zap - one mana less for being a Sorcery and 1 less for not being able to target players. The inability to not target players is actually quite important as it greatly reduces the ability to 'cycle/deck thin'. However I was aware as I wrote out the initial post that the Red one was pushing the envelope a lot. It is still good enough as it is, so I'd rather not kick up a fuss over pinging players, especially as it is still probably the best one in the cycle.

[dandan]

I have posted complete current versions.

Personally I like the rather simplistic names, as the Welkin name and known effects take the focus off the minor effects and onto the Welkin effect.

Is the wording OK? Specifically is it clear when you need to shuffle and when not to (the Blue one rather breaks the cycle but hopefully a simple line break can clarify the obvious)?

I think the power level is fine, I'd certainly try these in decks and it would be so much fun to get a few in draft.

I've added some flavour text to the Black one, as ever I am aware of how good my flavour text is, so feel free to make other suggestions.

Yes, I am aware that Welkin Focus has the same flavour text as Focus Mind. This makes them a 'flavour text' mini-cycle. In addition, Friends regularly used bits from older creations, I think I can do the same. If you don't like it, be aware that changing it could result in some Dandan flavour text. That threat alone should persuade you to leave well(kin) alone.

[Jacob Orlove]

I guess I can live with the black one being terrible, but I really don't like how awful the blue one is. It seriously doesn't do anything!

I would much rather see tap a creature, as strong as that would be.

Could we make the black one a raise dead? That would still be not good, but better than the life exchange.

[dandan]

The Blue one is my favourite one. Trust me, there ARE people out there who would love that card.

I quite like the Black one, BBBB for a 4 point Drain Life and a bit of deck thinning is pretty good and Wizards did print cantrip versions that cost 3 mana. Raise Dead would have to cost 1B as B would be too good (Wizards recently made a card that did that for XBB didn't they?) It is a fairly cool answer to Worship and for one Black is a fairly costed.

[Jacob Orlove]

Raise Dead effects are only potentially "broken" in limited, where you're unlikely to see more than a few of these anyway. B is more than fair, because Raise Dead itself is hilariously underpowered.

If you want to stick with the blue one, fine, but it really is awful.

[dandan]

I'd not get away with making the Blue one Draw a card plus Welkin effect for {u} so I can't really make the Black one put a creature card in your hand + Welkin effect for , can I? It would be 'fairly' costed at 1{b} and even then would be pretty sweet with Eternal Witness still doing the rounds. In my opinion Raise Dead is too strong an effect for a Welkin card costed at B so I'd rather stick with the mini-Tendrils. Syphon Soul as a cantrip for BB is none too shabby.

The Blue one is better than you think. Remember it thins your library by 2 cards and puts 1 card in your graveyard and adds 1 to your Storm count for {u} and 0 cards. We are not talking Ancestral Recall but it is far better than awful.

In any case every cycle has stronger and weaker cards and apart from the White one (damage prevention sucks even though it is an amazing combat trick), I think all of the cards would see play (I'd play the White one too but thay merely shows how 'casual' I am)

[Jacob Orlove]

A Raise Dead effect is much, much worse than a card draw, because it's so situational and so unplayable in good decks. It's the same card advantage in an abstract sense, but an aggro deck can't waste time on it when they don't know that their creatures will die--another creature instead is basically always better. Control would love to draw cards, but would rather impact the board than get back a finisher. Combo obviously won't care. That leaves midrange decks, with a mix of smaller and larger creatures, and even if they run the raise dead, it's not going to be anything good. B is a completely fair cost, especially compared to the red one.

The blue one actually costs you a card (unless you're playing with merfolk looter or similar) because the card you "draw" doesn't do anything either. You end up spending a bunch of mana and a card to thin your deck--an effect that has been proven to be terrible even when it doesn't cost you any cards.

[dandan]

The Blue one is certainly weaker than the Red one. Having said that, it compares favourably with most Instants that cost {u}. Blue is the colour that has most uses for cards in hand and even the side effects of the card (putting a card in the library, raising storm count, library shuffle, keeping a Blue card in hand) are quite useful. It does 'combo' well with Brainstorm and FoW which gives it hope. Every {u} spell can't be an Ancestral you know.

[Jacob Orlove]

Having said that, it compares favourably with most Instants that cost {u}.

That's just not true. Here's a complete list of all blue instants that cost U, sorted into "better than this card" and "worse than this card".

Better:
Ancestral Recall                  U        R
Annul                             U        C
Artificial Evolution              U        R
Blue Elemental Blast              U        C
Brainstorm                        U        C
Chain of Vapor                    U        U
Chain Stasis                      U        R
Clairvoyance                      U        C
Curfew                            U        C
Disrupt                           U        C
Divert                            U        R
Dizzy Spell                       U        C
Dream’s Grip                      U        C
Enchantment Alteration            U        U
Envelop                           U        C
Flash Flood                       U        C
Force Spike                       U        C
Gigadrowse                        U        C
High Tide                         U        C
Hydroblast                        U        U
Infiltrate                        U        C
Intervene                         U        C
Leap                              U        C
Magical Hack                      U        R
Mask of the Mimic                 U        U
Mental Note                       U        C
Mind Bend                         U        R
Mind Games                        U        C
Mystical Tutor                    U        U
Obsessive Search                  U        C
Opt                               U        C
Peek                              U        C
Prismatic Lace                    U        R
Quicken                           U        R
Ray of Erasure                    U        C
Reach Through Mists               U        C
Remove                            U        U
Rescue                            U        C
Retract                           U        R
Shadow Rift                       U        C
Siren’s Call                      U        U
Sleight of Mind                   U        R
Stifle                            U        R
Twiddle                           U        C
Unsummon                          U        C
Vision Charm                      U        C
Whim of Volrath                   U        R
Whispers of the Muse              U        U
Word of Undoing                   U        C

Worse:
Abjure                            U        C
Cut the Earthly Bond              U        C
Defy Gravity                      U        C
Disarm                            U        C
Ertai’s Trickery                  U        U
Glyph of Delusion                 U        C
Jump                              U        C
Riptide                           U        C
Sapphire Charm                    U        C
Sea Kings’ Blessing               U        U
Spy Network                       U        C
Thoughtlace                       U        R
Trickery Charm                    U        C

The problem here is that you are DRASTICALLY overestimating the value of getting another copy of this card in your hand, because you're treating it as though it were worth one card, when all it can do is waste your mana and provide extremely minor fringe benefits. Thinning two cards from your deck gives you about a 1% increased odds to see at least one copy of a four-of that you haven't drawn yet in your next five draws. That's not worth a full mana. Shuffling your deck is not worth one mana. Increased Storm count is not even close to being worth one mana, especially when having this card in hand makes it harder to get you to the point where you CAN go off. Pitching to Force is an absurdly weak justification. Even being able to do all of these things is nowhere near good enough to justify wasting a full mana and space in your deck on this card. It is absolutely unplayable, and getting a second copy into your hand isn't going to change that.

[Matt]

Make the blue one RFG two cards instead of one. That gives some thinning worth thinking about.

[Jacob Orlove]

Actually, if we're increasing the number of cards thinned, I'd probalby want to go all the way up to 4. Thinning is a terrible way to improve draw quality, so we really need to give a lot of it to make the card halfway decent.

[Toad]

I'm quite with Jacob on this one. If there are cards in your deck that you are willing to remove, why are you running them anyways?