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Author Topic: [Deck] Thirst For Knowledge in 'Tog'  (Read 4100 times)
Anders Noer
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« on: February 04, 2006, 08:53:54 pm »

I'd like to post my take on an updated tog list, inspired by this thread:
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=27042.0

While the build in jCoKn's (what's up with the name, bro?) thread acknowledges cutting down on the number of winconditions, I think there are some flaws in the deck theory.

I agree that the deck can function very well and be very brutal with just a few win conditions. I stick to my guns with 1 Tog instead of the Tendrils. I wont spend much time discussing this secondary win condition, as Tinker/DC will win you the game 80% of the time.

My major concern in regards to jCoKn's list is the 'card advantage' parts of the deck - it's draw engine. Let me explain:

Intuition/AK is an established way to refill your hand. It is amazing when you're holding AK no. 4 in hand or when your deck has other uses for the Inutitions (Mindslaver, Dragon, etc.).
But if you look at AK/Intuition under other circumstances, it's just a 3 for 2 card advantage for 3UU. That's really slow when facing FCG or some other nasty beats. And in this deck it doesn't even tutor for brokenness... Sure it sets up a Win More Yawgmoth's Will or finds 3 FoW in a pinch, but nothing REALLY spectacular happens when playing Intuition for anything besides AK.
AK/Intuition's reliance on the graveyard is a problem too, as random hate towards the grave hurts you pretty bad.

Merchant Scroll has the same problems card advantage-wise in my opinion.

Not to mention, Merchant Scroll > Ancestral Recall is never a bad thing.

I'm not sure I agree here... Sure you get 3 new cards, but at the cost of 1UU at sorcery speed and 2 cards, this seems less than impressive. It is really good to be able to tutor for broken blue cards, but at sorcery speed and getting no real card advantage in the process, makes it problematic to me. Especially in this very tight deck that needs to be on top to win - controlling the game.

These factors combined: the slow and unimpressive 'card advantage' takes a lot of the 'oomph!' from this very explosive and savagely controllish deck.

I've tried to make my version of Tog faster, while still having the ability to dig deep into the library for answers in the opening turns.

MAIN:
1 Psychatog
1 Tinker
1 Darksteel Colossus

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Duress

4 Thirst For Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish

1 Echoing Truth
2 Engineered Explosives

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Fact Or Fiction
1 Gush

1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Tropical Island
4 Island
4 Undergroud Sea
1 Seat Of The Synod


SIDEBOARD:
1 Oxidize
1 Berserk
1 Seedtime
1 Krosan Reclamation
1 Moment's Peace
1 Misdirection
1 Stifle
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain Of Vapor
1 Darkblast
1 Coffin Purge
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mind Twist
1 Hideous Laughter
(Please disregard the sb. The only vital cards are: the bounce spells, Vampiric Tutor, Mind Twist, Berserk and Misdirection)

The big difference between the two builds is obviously my inclusion of Thirst For Knowledge as my main draw engine. It is supported by Fact Or Fiction, tutors, 3 Cunning Wish and a questionable Gush.
Thirst + Fact has a nice ability to dig deep into the deck NOW. You don't have to spend a turn setting up with Intuition.. You draw the cards at once and see your options right away. This wins you games when staring down active Welder, Goblins or an active Oath. It does so in the important turns 2-5 in which most T1 games are decided. This is essential in relation to Intuition/AK that loses a turn for you on this account.

Here's two examples:

With Intuition/AK:
A turn 2 Mana Drain (for 2), lets my turn 3 play be: Intuition for 3xAK for U, and keep UU open (expecting to draw 3 cards in my opponents next EOT step if he has no play)

With Thirst For Knowledge:
A turn 2 mana drain (for 2), lets my turn 3 play be: Thirst 3 cards deep into my deck giving me options NOW, maybe even finding another Mana Drain, extra land or brokenness. It still lets me put up UU and playing a brainstorm, tutor or whatever.

The Thirst version is a lot more aggressive this way - it lets me randomly see proactive cards like Duress, Time Walk and Tinker and lets me able to play these right away.

Adding enough artifacts to make this work was actually pretty easy.
Even as I include green for the good ol' Berserk win, I still chose Engineered Explosives over Pernicious Deed, because og the Thirsts. Explosives have been working wonders for me and are often one or two mana cheaper than a Deed. It's fine to discard these to Thirst, when you're in control of the game. Also U+random mox/black is a lot easier to produce than finding consistant green mana in this deck.

Being able to get rid of a Darksteel Colossus in hand in other ways than by Brainstorm'ing it away is obviously another huge benefit from Thirst - Oath players know how it feels to be stuck with 'big dude in hand' (some pun intended).
1 artifact land was added to give another random artifact to discard without wrecking the mana base too much.
Try it out - it works quite alright.

I feel that Green still gives some very nice options. Berserk is not to be scoffed at. It makes Tog lethal ALL THE TIME. and I've even played it on DC to finish the game NOW. I don't see it as a win more card at all. It gives you a lot more options.
Krosan Reclamation doubles as Graveyard hate and it recycles your sparse win conditions if all goes wrong. If someone decks you, you can put Timewalk + Tinker back in your library (or cunning wish + Tinker).
The most important sb-card is Vampiric Tutor. It gets you tinker at the cost of card advantage - When your opponent is properly disrupted this has little consequence as Mr. 11/11 JUST DOESN'T CARE. It feels clunky to end of turn Wish for vampiric, and miss your next draw - but it has won me lots of games. I'm sure this is true for jCoKn as well.

Bounce maindecked AND sideboarded as numerous different wish targets are very important in the current environment of oaths, Needles, Chalices, and other hatefull artifacts and enchantments.

I like the idea of adding white if Stax and Oath are problematic. But I'd rather have an effective toolbox in random metas.

I played this deck in a 24 man well-powered tournament last week and won, but that's the only test the deck has had so far.
Gush won me the semi-finals, but has to move to the sb I'm afraid. Maybe a maindeck Misdirection or an extra explosives or a Sol Ring will take it's slot.

Thx for reading.
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« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2006, 09:33:15 pm »

Quote
But if you look at AK/Intuition under other circumstances, it's just a 3 for 2 card advantage for 3UU. That's really slow when facing FCG or some other nasty beats. And in this deck it doesn't even tutor for brokenness... Sure it sets up a Win More Yawgmoth's Will or finds 3 FoW in a pinch, but nothing REALLY spectacular happens when playing Intuition for anything besides AK.

Intuition is actually much better than thirst against the "goldfish gauntlet" in the form of FCG or fish, since it lets you set up stupid wills.  Beyond the play everybody's seen of something like Ancestral, Walk, Lotus, or Walk, Lotus, Tinker, it also lets you get triple tutor, or if you're running green, two stupid cards and a Regrowth.  All it takes is Academy or Lotus (or even mana crypt or sol ring) to turn Intuition from a crappy tutor to a combo engine.

Quote
I'm not sure I agree here... Sure you get 3 new cards, but at the cost of 1UU at sorcery speed and 2 cards, this seems less than impressive. It is really good to be able to tutor for broken blue cards, but at sorcery speed and getting no real card advantage in the process, makes it problematic to me. Especially in this very tight deck that needs to be on top to win - controlling the game.

The real strength in Merchant Scroll is to delay.  I've seen a lot of Meandeck Gifts and the occasional CS or BrassGifts player win games by getting Mana Drain.  Their opponents are so afraid to play in to the drain that they waste precious turns trying to play around it, and meanwhile Gifts/CS are winning the game.  I'm not sure exactly how viable that is in
A) a metagame where people have seen it before and know how to react accordingly or
B) in tog
...but that's the real argument I'd be making.  Getting Ancestral is amusingly the most mediocre application Scroll has, and even that's really brutal.  Now, I could spend all day telling you why it's not worth it in the optimal Gifts deck, but in a deck running
-Ancestral
-Cunning Wish
-Rebuild
-Mana Drain
-Force of Will
-Intuition
-Accumulated Knowledge
-Mystical Tutor
not running Merchant Scroll would be pretty terrible.  The only cards that it can't fetch making it inferior to Demonic Tutor are Tinker and Yawgmoth's Will, but it can still get Mystical for those same bombs.
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« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2006, 10:32:05 pm »

I think you should look the topic "[Decks] (French) Food for thought", you'll be surprised to see that the few difference between your deck and the KI.merchant deck we played one year ago are only :
-3 cunning wish + 3 merchant scroll
-1 tog + 1 sundering.
In that way merchant.deck uses the tfk engine with some engineered explosives to get rid of aggro, chalice and moxen.
I think the fact of playing sundering is more consistent than tog. We agree that both of them win the game when they hit the table but sundering is far more findable and early playable (via tinker) than a lethal tog.

You do not run sol ring or any colorless land and i think it is an error in the way you have only mana from drain to remove the chalice for 0. and with your 3Cc cunning wish, you will take a lot of time to deal with.

Merchant scroll is IMO so good because it acts as brainstorm, as a card that will not make you mulliganing your 1land-1mox hand. This brings a lot of stability to the deck because being able to draw sytematicaly 3 cards on turn 2-3 or tinker in the worth case at turn 3-4 against aggro makes you win time you do not get with cunning wish.

I'll say about cunning wish that it uses many side slots and it is not always a good thing depending the meta.
And what are the target to an early cunning wish? vampiric -> CA-1 where ancestral is CA+2 and much more fast to use.
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« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2006, 11:37:19 pm »

     Has anyone thought about adding in a recoup and a burning wish, so that you can set up a vicious recoup to tendrils win? I'm currently testing it, but Tog-->zerk may prove more valuable/useful. My reasoning would be that you can set up the win in the graveyard a turn faster than gifts if you had to go off in an emergency, even if it was just recoup/will/tinker/lotus.
     The only issue I see is the interference  with the burning wish.
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« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2006, 12:49:16 pm »

But if you look at AK/Intuition under other circumstances, it's just a 3 for 2 card advantage for 3UU.

This is actually a 3x1 card advantage. Scroll (-1) to fetch Ancestral (+1), Ancestral (-1) to draw 3 (+3). So your net gain are 2 cards.
I completely agree with Kowal, I think that Scroll has so many targets it will fetch the best blue instant in each situation, which is not Ancestral every time. Default plays are not always the way to go, and with the flexibility Scroll gives you can easily take off guard your opponent.

Anders, you were inspired by a deck that leans towards combo and you designed a deck which has a very strong control flavour, was that your intention?
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Anders Noer
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« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2006, 02:49:49 pm »

But if you look at AK/Intuition under other circumstances, it's just a 3 for 2 card advantage for 3UU.

This is actually a 3x1 card advantage. Scroll (-1) to fetch Ancestral (+1), Ancestral (-1) to draw 3 (+3). So your net gain are 2 cards.
I completely agree with Kowal, I think that Scroll has so many targets it will fetch the best blue instant in each situation, which is not Ancestral every time. Default plays are not always the way to go, and with the flexibility Scroll gives you can easily take off guard your opponent.

Anders, you were inspired by a deck that leans towards combo and you designed a deck which has a very strong control flavour, was that your intention?

Your quote is a bit off, but I get the point. Merchant scroll for Recall is actually a 2 card net gain, that's right. This helps a bit, but I still find it clunky since it's a sorcery.. You almost never want to tap 1U turn 2 or 3, so you have to do it turn 1 with a mox or later on to play it optimally. This doesn't find you new options NOW.

I was inspired by the thread and discussion therein, not the deck. Sorry if that didn't show in my post. I made this deck long before reading jCoKn's thread.

EDIT: I also wish to stress, that my criticism towards Merchant Scroll and Intuition/AK only goes for this Tog/Tinker/Tendrils deck of course.. Intuition/AK can be amazing in other decks, as I mentioned in my first post. I just don't think it fits into this archetypes strategy.
These cards have been playable in T1 for a long while. They didn't go bad overnight - that was not my initial idea anyway... This thread is about Tog-type decks, i hope.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2006, 02:57:27 pm by Anders Noer » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2006, 04:03:16 pm »

-3 cunning wish + 3 merchant scroll
  You need the cunning wishes for the sideboard hate. Cunning wish has always been essential to tog/Hulk.
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« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2006, 08:37:53 pm »

The real strength in Intuition/AK is not being able to draw 3 cards for 5 mana. That is obviously not a very good deal. However, AK for 3 followed by AK for 4 means you get 7 new cards for UUU4 mana. Not only is this a good price to pay for so many cards, you are also able to spread the mana out over a few different turns. The goal of Tog is to get to the point in the game where your opponent will have used up most/all of his or her resources, and then looks up at the 6 cards you still have in your hand. That is the goal Tog wants to achieve and Intuition/AK helps it get there much faster and more effiiciently than TfK.

Thirst does help you power through the first few turns very well, I'll admit, but unless you can follow it up with a huge card advantage spell like Gifts Ungiven, I think you will find that you are going to run out of gas a lot faster than every other existing control deck in the field.
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« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2006, 08:47:30 am »

I ve been playing tog for a long time now, winning a piece a power, drains and numerous small prizes.  The basic complaint that everyone has about it is the cost of int./ak engine.  Notice that your build you will most likely pay 2U for a 1 card net advantage, maybe 2.  It is true that Int./ ak trades for 2 (in which you recieve 3 new cards) but the point ppl miss is that it thins you library by six (-3aks that you int. and the 3 cards you draw).  This increases the chances of hiting vital spells.  So in essence you pay UU3 to thing your library by 6.
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« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2006, 10:04:42 am »

Thirst looks rasther bad in your deck. Paying 3 mana should do better than just dig three deep and feed a Tog or Will. You need to discard an artifact for it to do anything at all (CA) and I hate dumping my answers (EE) or my mana in the yard.

Thirst is broken in Slaver, pretty good in Stax and it gets downhill from there.
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« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2006, 10:36:35 am »

...but that's the real argument I'd be making.  Getting Ancestral is amusingly the most mediocre application Scroll has, and even that's really brutal.  Now, I could spend all day telling you why it's not worth it in the optimal Gifts deck, but in a

well, isn't this point a fundamental difference b/w MD gifts and probasco gifts?

has it been shown that the probasco list is "optimal" vs the MD list?
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« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2006, 11:01:09 am »

-3 cunning wish + 3 merchant scroll
  You need the cunning wishes for the sideboard hate. Cunning wish has always been essential to tog/Hulk.

The deck he was referencing isn't a Tog deck, but rather a French deck that tries to win via the power of Merchant Scroll backing up a Darksteel Colossus or a Sundering Titan.  It's essentially a "Gifts" deck made before Gifts Ungiven was printed.
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« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2006, 07:25:53 pm »

...but that's the real argument I'd be making.  Getting Ancestral is amusingly the most mediocre application Scroll has, and even that's really brutal.  Now, I could spend all day telling you why it's not worth it in the optimal Gifts deck, but in a

well, isn't this point a fundamental difference b/w MD gifts and probasco gifts?

has it been shown that the probasco list is "optimal" vs the MD list?

I would say so.  There's been a ton of appearances from Thirst-packing Gifts lists in t8s recently, but I can't remember the last notable t8 that featured the meandeck style gifts.

Come to think of it, I can't think of any major tournaments where Meandeck-style gifts did well.  I can think of a really small mox pearl tournament in Chicago that was 4 rounds cut to top 4 where it split in the finals, and a bunch of the little sanctioned affairs at Origins when Smmenen first started playing that list, but that's it.
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« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2006, 08:37:26 pm »

Buehler did well with it in WA, but that's pretty much the only one I can think of.

In general, I think that difference in mana from 3-4 makes a huge impact on the game, and the decks reliance on drawing acceleration.  But thats merely theoretical as I haven't tested the in's and out's of each of them as thouroughly as others.

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« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2006, 10:50:32 pm »

Didn't Jim Gaffney top 8 a Chicago SCG P9 with Meandeck Gifts in July?  I could've sworn he did, considering he beat the crap outta me round 7.
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« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2006, 12:34:10 am »

I think I've mentioned before why the reason I chose Intuition/AK over anything else, be it Thirst, Gifts, whatever else: and that is that it skews the deck. Instead of playing better cards, you're forced into playing Seat of the Synod over... Library of Alexandria? No thanks. And Engineered Explosives over Rebuild/Chain of Vapor means you just roll to Null Rod even more, and now you're losing to stax more often than not. Merchant Scroll > Rebuild is a VERY key play for winning the matchup, and I'd like to hear how you fare against stax in your game1's and/or game 2's since your sideboard is all wish targets, no hate. Not to mention, your sideboard seems to be infested with bad cards, but I won't dwell on that.

I really think that Thirst for Knowledge lacks the late-game winning potential... your argument that it speeds up the deck seems counterintuitive (at least to me) because this is a late-game deck and you already have Duress and Mana Drain anyways to cover your early game. Your early game should essentially pit your 7 against his, then in the midgame you outdraw him with a resolved Intuition and/or go sin with Library. Another Rebuild fact: it gets Library back online in midgame stalls like no other! Anyhow, just my 2 cents.
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« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2006, 11:02:55 am »

Quote
I would say so.  There's been a ton of appearances from Thirst-packing Gifts lists in t8s recently, but I can't remember the last notable t8 that featured the meandeck style gifts.
Clown of Tresserhorn seems to have been playing Merch. Scroll over Thirst when he split a Sapphire last weekend.

Quote from: Clown of Tresserhorn
Mana Vault – This card was fucking incredible. Cutting it is retarded. It easily won me 2 games vs. Ravager. Maybe turn 1 gifts in a shit thirst build isn’t good, but it’s definitely sauce in Meandeck’s build.

Clown went 12-1 with it and I went 9-2 with it, losing one game to a procedural error and the other because I am a terrible player.  21-3 in games (10-1-1 in matches) and splitting two Moxen seems like a decent weekend's work for Meandeck's build.

Other than that, I haven't really seen anyone playing Merch. Scroll versions.  Even last summer when MD Gifts was the new shit, the only Gifts I played against played Thirst.  At Waterbury there appear to have been no builds without Thirst in the top ... 140.  Hard for a deck to top-8 when it isn't played.
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« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2006, 06:20:54 pm »

And Engineered Explosives over Rebuild/Chain of Vapor means you just roll to Null Rod even more, and now you're losing to stax more often than not.

This deck has very few issues with Null Rod. It really doesnt hurt me at all. 
The sb could easily fit a set of Energy Fluxes or a couple more Naturalize/Oxidize if Stax was a huge factor. In my area, it isn't at the moment though. (And we agree that the sb has awful cards. In the tournament I won with this deck I wished for: Echoing Truth, Hurkyl's Recall, Vampiric Tutor, Berserk and Misdirection exclusively - apart from Wish targets from the maindeck after Will/FoW pitch --> Thirst + Recall)



I really think that Thirst for Knowledge lacks the late-game winning potential... your argument that it speeds up the deck seems counterintuitive (at least to me) because this is a late-game deck and you already have Duress and Mana Drain anyways to cover your early game.

This is where I think our metas differ. If playing in a field of mirror matches and Gifts all over, these arguments would hold true. I, however, play in a quite varied field. There's lots of combo being played and a great number of Fish-type decks and aggressive strategies like FCG or sligh'ish decks (Try playing intuition slaver against this and you'll lose Sad). I DO face control mirrors also, but mainly in the top 8. My first concern is getting there and this deck performs well in a varied field due to its speed and consistancy.

I agree that this is a late game deck, therefore I think it makes sense trying to get to that phase of the game. I cant just fill my deck with late game bombs and card drawing, because I'm playing a "late-game deck". I need to speed up my deck/fit answers/disrupt my opponent enough to make me live through to the mid-late game.
Another option that this deck often uses, is simply overpowering it's opposition with Tinker, that wrecks most strategies even still. People pack hate against it, but it still works.

While I may not have as strong a late game plan as an Intuition/AK + Deep Analysis + LoA deck, I still get to outlast most decks with me getting quality cards through Thirst and Brainstorm rather than dead draws in the mid-late game. And I can disrupt with the best of them, with a full suite of Duress, Drain and FoW + Wish backup.
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