Do any magic dealers/traders ever feel guilty?

[Juggernaut GO]

I spent the last 2 weeks after waterbury thinking about this, after hearing about trades people did, and even on my own selling of some cards.  I guess it may be an obvious answer that no, people who sell/trade magic for a living don't have a concience when it comes down to making a dollar. 

I can remember 1 trader coming over to me and badgering me about wanting to trade even though I had just lost the shittiest match of magic ever.  So I look at his binder and he has nothing I want, but I settle on 1 foil anger, meanwhile he is pulling all sorts of crap from my binder, 2x dark confidant/lots of type 2 cards that I don't really care about but I know are worth money.  So he comes up with the all famous "well, what do you value this at"  I said, I want 1 card from you and its worth about 2 bucks, nothing you pulled from my binder is worth that.  So he is like, well find more stuff you want, I need some of these cards.  Ok so I spend 15 minutes with the guy haggling over 2 pernicious deeds he wouldn't come up off and he ends up trading me the anger for 3 crap rares that he wanted.

I came to the conclusion that he didn't even come to the tournament to play, just to rip people off cards and sell them on his ebay store when he got home.  Do these kinds of people actually think that they are fooling anyone when they show up at major tournaments?

I want to give you 3 situations that happened in the past 2 weeks over power cards

1: unlimited mox sapphire, slightly played, sold for 290 cash.   Would you have been happy receiving the cash, or the mox for 290?

2: unlimited mox jet heavily played, traded for 1 NM unlimited timetwister, 50 cash, 2 blue duals, and about $50 in other rares
would you be happy getting the jet, or trading the jet?

3: unlimited mox emerald, traded to a dealer for 1 box of english guildpact, 1 box of russian guildpact, 1 guildpact fat pack   would you be happy getting the mox, or trading the mox away?

As a dealer, would you feel any kind of guilt if you rip off someone on a card worth 300-400 retail and give them 200 in trade?  Or is this just considered to be good buisiness?

running into people like the guy who always undervalues your cards and over values his by 30 % is the reason I hate trading.  Maybe I am just mad at the society in general, where its acceptable for a auto dealer to sell a car for $55,000 then buy it back 7 months later for $35k claiming such heavy depreciation on it when it's still practicly brand new.

I guess I'll be waiting for the PM's calling me a communist.

[ChemEng]

As long as both people leave happy, then all is good. Stick to that and everything's kosher by me. (But Im not a dealer...)

[Dante]

running into people like the guy who always undervalues your cards and over values his by 30 % is the reason I hate trading.  Maybe I am just mad at the society in general, where its acceptable for a auto dealer to sell a car for $55,000 then buy it back 7 months later for $35k claiming such heavy depreciation on it when it's still practicly brand new.

I would say one of the key skills in trading is recognizing what type of person you're trading with in about 60 seconds.  Obviously, dealer type people need to have things come out in their favor, so you're best off just recognizing that upfront and stop trading with them.    That's my best advice...usually a few "what sort of value do you place on X" can figure that out....

not sure where you're going with the auto dealer, but as someone coming from a management position, taking on new inventory or taking back used inventory can be a big risk....you have to PAY the money upfront [remember, most SMB businesses like auto dealers fail in the first couple years and most of the time it's NOT because they aren't profitable, it's because of cash flow problems], have the car sit around, then only make money once someone buys it.  If you know you can sell it fast, then it's not a problem, but even slightly used cars need to have a decent discount from the same model new, because if you were going to buy a new car for $50k or the same model used with 10,000 miles on it for $46k, you'd probably take the new one, even though it's more, it's not that much more (8% of the price of the new car) and you KNOW it's brand new.  Besides, with the Internet, everyone can squeeze the dealer now except for high-demand cars....

anyway, back to the trading, I think it needs to be more recognized that it's ok to NOT complete a trade with no hard feelings if you can't come to an agreement.  I mean if player A needs to get $20 in trade for the cards player B wants to feel it's worth it, but player B only wants to give up $14 in trade or it's not worth it, then they just need to agree that the trade isn't going to work out.  I've done that numerous times and the other person gets mad about it - one guy said to me "we just spent 15 minutes working out this trade!"  and I said "well I value my cards more than you're willing to give me for them, so I'd rather not make the trade since we can't make it a win-win" and he had NO idea what I was talking about.  I doubt he even knew what "win-win" meant.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

With the exception of Dan Bock, I fucking HATE dealers and asstards that come to type 1 tourneys just to trade. I go to tourneys to play, not to be badgered 100000 times by the same douche who wants to trade his shitty collection for my power.

That's not to say I don't encourage trading. It's perfectly fine if someone asks for trade when the time is appropriate. I just think it's plain rude to ask ANY player during a match to "see your trade stuff." My advice? Do what SCG does. Setup shop somewhere and let the people come to you.

-Bob

[Eddie]

I never trade at a tournament again. I've been ripped before, just because I'm not a die hard trader and I don't know the prices. In general, I don't really care if I lose money on a trade when I'm trading cards I'll never use for cards I need. But I don't want the difference to be huge. I advise everyone to trade online. You can look up the value of the cards, and more important: you have time to think it over! There is never enough time between rounds at a tournament, certainly not if you're thinking about giving your brain a rest and you want to get it over with.

To answer each situation:

1) I'd probably take the mox. I can use the cash, (well, you can always use cash) but the mox is better.

2) This is a hard one and pretty even. It would depend on which I need: the mox or the twister. The twister deal is probably better.

3) Emerald without a doubt. I have no use for boxes of guildpact and don't know any one whom might be interested.

Then again, I probably value power higher because I'm european and we actually need it to play...

[forests failed you]

I have no problem with dealers in the slightest.  They serve a purpose, and they are useful.

They have anything you need when you need it, and often times they have cards that are really rare that nobody else in the room is going to have.

Am I more than willing to get ripped off trading away my type two stuff to get a foil asian Polluted Delta or a Beta Time Vault?  Its not a question I'm fine with that.  Or do I mind paying an extra $15 bucks cash to absolve myself of the annoyance of trying to win it on ebay, and have it in hand.  Probably.

If you don't like them, there is no law that says you must trade with them.  But a lot of them are decent guys and will even trade fairly straight with you once you get to know them.

[Drathro]

I came to the conclusion that he didn't even come to the tournament to play, just to rip people off cards and sell them on his ebay store when he got home.  Do these kinds of people actually think that they are fooling anyone when they show up at major tournaments?

I'm feelin' this one.  At my very first sanctioned Legacy tournament (a Dual Land draft in Syracuse), I ran into one of these guys in between rounds.  Not having a lot of chase rares, I had brought a trade binder with commons, uncommons, and maybe up to $6 rares that I knew people wanted for the normal Legacy decks (like Duress, for example). 

So this guy pulls out a pile of cards from my binder worth collectively at least $40, even though individually worth .50 to $2.00 apiece for the most part.  He asks me what I want from his binder. I point out a few things, but I pull out Masticore and immediately he gets hostile.  "You don't have anything worth that in here."  I try to convince him that the pile he has extracted from my binder is worth much more than a single Masticore, but he tries to get me to take maybe $5 worth of crap rares I had expressed a mild interest in. That's when I realized he was there not to play, but to rip players off.

So I called it off, took my cards back, and decided then and there that, at tournaments, I will never trade with someone who isn't playing in the tournament.  Maybe I'll miss out on some good trades, but I'll also miss out on jerks who only waste my time and disorganize my trade binder.

[dicemanx]

I lost interest in trading, because people have become such skarks and try to squeeze every last cent from you on deals. Its frankly not worth the hassle anymore. I'd rather just buy what I want, and sell cards off that I no longer need. There's my ideal way of "trading" at this point.

I know my prices very well, and its often amusing how people try to bullshit you about what cards are valued accoring to ebay or MOTL.

[Machinus]

I lost interest in trading, because people have become such skarks and try to squeeze every last cent from you on deals. Its frankly not worth the hassle anymore. I'd rather just buy what I need, and sell cards off that I no longer need. There's my ideal way of "trading" at this point.

I know my prices very well, and its often amusing how people try to bullshit you about what cards are valued accoring to ebay or MOTL.

Often when I am trading, people will just make up some value for a card that they have. Frequently I even see other players get out something like a Scrye - right in front of me - and with a straight face, quote the price from the book.

I spend many hours on eBay buying, so I know what Vintage/Legacy stuff is worth. Sometimes you just have to remember not to trade with someone because they don't know anything about the market. It can be an advantage though; when they are told that TYPETWORARE is worth $25, just let them pay for their own ignorance.

[vartemis]

I use findmagiccards to value it, as that is what vendors are currently selling at.  But I also value the cards I am trading away at that price, so no one is really getting ripped off, both cards can be valued low.  Using MOTL is fine if you value both cards from the list.  Saying that something is worth an amount and then quoting the other card from MOTL is wrong, as it is not a fair comparison.  Lately I have been using Becket Magic, and I find their prices to be fairly consistent with Scrye.  What does everyone else use?

j

[Machinus]

I use findmagiccards to value it, as that is what vendors are currently selling at.  But I also value the cards I am trading away at that price, so no one is really getting ripped off, both cards can be valued low.  Using MOTL is fine if you value both cards from the list.  Saying that something is worth an amount and then quoting the other card from MOTL is wrong, as it is not a fair comparison.  Lately I have been using Becket Magic, and I find their prices to be fairly consistent with Scrye.  What does everyone else use?

j

No book or web listing has good accuracy. The only reliable way to know a card's value is to see what it's worth on the open market, i.e, eBay.

[vartemis]

No book or web listing has good accuracy. The only reliable way to know a card's value is to see what it's worth on the open market, i.e, eBay.

Do you vouch for MOTL price list then?  It's more real time then mags as they are a month behind.

j

[Evenpence]

www.findmagiccards.com prices are off.  They're either a tad bit too low (rares that are played but only sorta), or WAY too high (stuff thats played).  I haven't found anything online that adequately prices more than 50% of the cards.  www.findmagiccards.com is a good medium to use, but the best thing to use is something like Scrye, acknowledging that all the prices are WAY too high.  They're good in relation to one another.

Ebay prices are too high too, and you can't get a price check off that, because they're all auctions (the ones that aren't are too high, as BIN is always too high.  I've only seen one BIN priced correctly, and that was a week ago with a Mirage Booster Box that was priced at 120.00.  Dave and Adam's Card World is actually buying for 120.00, so it obviously can't be lower than that)

As a dealer myself, I encourage people to BUY from dealers.  Good dealers.  Ones that won't rip you off to a huge extent (granted, dealers will ALWAYS make trades and deals that benefit them, obviously), and dealers that you can trust.

Personally, when I play in tournaments, I bring my trade stuff for only people who are playing in tournaments.  Dealers usually don't trade with dealers, because not only does nobody benefit from the trades, but it's just time-wasting.  Sometimes, though, with dealers that you can trust (I deal with this guy named Rich who is a total bastard when it comes to everybody but me, but will actually give me my money's worth if I give him crap rares, etc).

Usually, buying from dealers will make the dealers happy because they bought the cards for less, but they'll be less than Ebay, for instance, because you don't have to pay S&H, you get to actually see the card's condition before you got it, and they're generally just less.

For instance, you might be able to get an Italian Drain off a god dealer for anywhere from 55-70 bucks, (depending on condition) .  Be prepared to pay more than that on Ebay.  Granted, that Italian Drain was gotten by the dealer for 45 in mass trade, so he's getting 10-20 bucks.  Drains are just absurd on Ebay.  Same thing with Forces.  You can occasionally get a steal, but it's just gotten too hard to actually profit off high-end items on Ebay.  Now, I just picked up 4x Jester's Cap for 5.00 with S&H off Ebay, so I'm pretty happy, but that's in no wise a high-end item.

Know that Dealers are trying to make money, not friends, necessarily.  Also, if you make friends with dealers, they're probably going to cut you breaks.  (I know I def. lower prices for people I like, because they won't steal from me, and will keep buying).  Buy from dealers, don't trade with them.  If you have to trade with them, try to trade low-end items with them to see how they're trying to deal buisness with you.  If they're getting a stack worth $40 dollars, and not giving you a single Masticore, walk away and tell all your friends what a bastard that dealer is.  Seriously.  Good dealers have good reputations, and bad ones should be bitched about.

[Machinus]

No book or web listing has good accuracy. The only reliable way to know a card's value is to see what it's worth on the open market, i.e, eBay.

Do you vouch for MOTL price list then?  It's more real time then mags as they are a month behind.

j

MOTL is better than Scrye. But seriously, it takes less than a minute to just search ebay for completed listings, and you can see for yourself exactly how much cards are going for. You can take into account language, edition, condition, shipping, feedback...there is no good reason not to just use eBay yourself instead of using an algorithm that can't handle more than one variable.

Ebay prices are too high too, and you can't get a price check off that, because they're all auctions (the ones that aren't are too high, as BIN is always too high.  I've only seen one BIN priced correctly, and that was a week ago with a Mirage Booster Box that was priced at 120.00.  Dave and Adam's Card World is actually buying for 120.00, so it obviously can't be lower than that)

If you look at BIN, you have absolutely no idea what you are doing.

I buy from good dealers IRL whenever I can. However, they all use eBay too, so it just adds security to the trade; it doesn't change the value of the cards.

[dicemanx]

No book or web listing has good accuracy. The only reliable way to know a card's value is to see what it's worth on the open market, i.e, eBay.

The MOTL price lists are based solely off ebay auctions. Some have to be taken with a grain of salt because of low n values or  certain factors (condition for instance for higher end cards), but they are generally a good representation of how much people are willing to pay for a card off ebay.

Findmagiccards.com along with other online stores (SCG) are fine to use as well, as long as using the store's values for all cards involved in a trade. Online stores have much greater premiums on hot constructed cards and cards from old sets, but most people will only swap high demand cards for high demand cards, so using those price guides is fine. And that's part of the problem actually, and why trading is much more difficult these days: you have high dollar cards and chaff, and it seems that the majority of trades involve either a shuffling of high dollar rares or sharks trying to nab high dollar rares for chaff.

[Matt]

I only trade with people who suck at trading, and then I give them a fair deal. They walk away thinking I'm God of Philanthropy. One kid wanted some Wurms for his Wurm deck, and he wanted to give me an Exalted Angel for them...I forced him to keep taking more until I was getting a good, but not insane, trade.

[Evenpence]

I only trade with people who suck at trading, and then I give them a fair deal. They walk away thinking I'm God of Philanthropy. One kid wanted some Wurms for his Wurm deck, and he wanted to give me an Exalted Angel for them...I forced him to keep taking more until I was getting a good, but not insane, trade.

This is what makes dealers GOOD dealers.  I do the same thing, and while you're losing a little bit of money short term, you're gaining a TON of money long term, because people will come to you knowing that you won't rip them off.

[Mykeatog]

It is no secret that I am a dealer, and all I have to say about this conversation is...

Some dealers are assholes, some pizza delivery men are assholes, some magic players are assholes, some doctors are assholes.

Some dealers are nice.

There is an honor level in the dealer world where we seperate the true dealers from the people who aren't going to survive in the game. I personnally follow these tworules and NEVER feel guilty at all. 1. No buying cards/trading with a pre-teens unless their parents are there. 2. Anyone who disrespects me because I am dealer -- will be ripped off as hard as I can do it. I just get heated when someone disrespects the way I am living my life.

I could get into a whole speech about card value and the stock market  but there really isn't a point to it. The important things have already been said... the more you get out in the magic scene the more you know who the 'dealers' are. If you know who they are you make your own choice - you can be in control of getting involved in the trade or not. Everyone (including you, me, and dealer joe) should be able to enjoy this game regardless of how they choose to do it. You can turn down the trade, you can walk away.


How many Magic players do you know that play poker? Should we now discuss the moral fiber associated with taking money from your friends?

[dandan]

I think that in you go for a trade, you need to appreciate that (duh) the trade may be:
A: In your favour
Vintage players can do this with Type II players and BOTH players can get a good deal. Lots of people are very happy to get old cards and I am very happy to get new cards. Treasure such trades and try to keep it mutually beneficial.
B: Even trade
These are tricky as you both value your cards roughly the same meaning you both walk away thinking you might have lost out. Although theoretically the best sort of trade, you need to think about your time and if paying/trading a few dollars more to get those cards could save you a lot of time.
C: Paying over the odds
Find a dealer/seller/trader that has all you need and save yourself time. This is particularly true on Ebay. It probably doesn't really matter if it costs you $4 or $5 in value for that Type II rare. It is probably worth paying $10 more for a genuine Mox than risk a fake/rip-off on Ebay or from a complete stranger who offers you a low price (and then find out someone has had their cards stolen)

Regarding dealers, they are there to make money. In order for them to offer prices that are not sky-high they need to try to buy below the market price. That is 100% normal.

For newbies, try to find a Mr. Suitcase. They'll dump no end of cards you want on you for free or for something they want but just don't have in that particular suitcase. I still remember the genorosity of a guy who opened a pack and gave me a Sengir Vampire (U in those days) for free when the memory of exactly how much I paid for those power cards has long since faded.

[ChemEng]

I could get into a whole speech about card value and the stock market  but there really isn't a point to it.

The problem with this comparison is that the stock market is priced accurately. When you deal with a dealer, you know that what they are pushing is not priced accurately. That alone is enough reason for adversarial spirit to be developed between dealers and those they are wanting to trade with.

[dandan]

Corner shops are more expensive than supermarkets but when you can't be bother to go to a supermarket and pick up a few beers at a corner shop to save time, you pay more. If you really, really want to look through a hundred trade binders or search through Ebay, you might get a bargain. If you want the card now, bite the bullet and pay a little more. Ditto for selling. I guess it depends on which you value more highly - your money or your time.

Honestly guys, dealers give you an option. Options are good things. Choosing options that don't suit you sucks but is your problem. I don't think it would be offensive to ask someone 'Are you a dealer?' before they start looking through your trade binder.

[Tha Gunslinga]

The problem with this comparison is that the stock market is priced accurately.

Enron.

The difficulty with Magic card prices is that there is no "set" value for anything.  Yes, you can go by ebay prices, but I've heard a zillion people quote me what they claim are "ebay" prices, and which bear no resemblance to actual ebay values.  I really liked what Myketog said, so I'm going to quote it again:

Some dealers are assholes, some pizza delivery men are assholes, some magic players are assholes, some doctors are assholes.

I've dealt with assholes before, but the vast majority of magic traders that I've dealt with have been inoffensive, and most have been nice people.  Just like Type 1 players, there might be a few bad apples, but the majority are gentlemen. 

If you don't know card values, yes, you will get ripped off.  Educate yourself.

[ChemEng]

The problem with this comparison is that the stock market is priced accurately.

Enron.

Nope. Enron stock was trading accurately at the price the market valued it. It was just a case of the market as a whole not valuing it correctly (mostly in part of shady accouting and poor leadership.) There are hints of this phenomena in Magical terms. Im thinking how undervalued Dark Confident collectively was when first spoiled; but once the community began realizing its utility in a number of archetypes, the value rapidly adjusted to meet the newfound utility. Thawing Glaciers and Necropotence also followed the same path.

[Jacob Orlove]

If you want it in economic terms: dealers provide a service (several services, actually), and if you want to take advantage of that, you're going to have to pay for it. Want to buy cards without having to trust the internet? Dealer. Want someone else to find all the cards you need for you? Dealer. Want someone who is willing to buy pretty much anything? Dealer. Want someone who will trade Power to you in exchange for cards that aren't power? Dealer.

If you'd rather spend your own time and money doing that, fine, but please realize that you're still going to have to pay for it.

[Machinus]

If you want it in economic terms: dealers provide a service (several services, actually), and if you want to take advantage of that, you're going to have to pay for it. Want to buy cards without having to trust the internet? Dealer. Want someone else to find all the cards you need for you? Dealer. Want someone who is willing to buy pretty much anything? Dealer. Want someone who will trade Power to you in exchange for cards that aren't power? Dealer.

If you'd rather spend your own time and money doing that, fine, but please realize that you're still going to have to pay for it.

Excellent point. It takes a lot of time and effort to become familiar with the market and set up secure trading practices. It's a dealer's job to provide those things, so naturally it comes at a price.

[LouGodKingofDustBunnys]

I did some buying and trading at Waterbury myself, picking up an unlimited Lotus for $550 and a trading up for a Mox Jet, both from Jeff Anand. Jeff gave me a fantastic deal for the Lotus, and I traded a bunch of stuff I never use for most of the cost of the Mox, plus a bit of cash thrown in. Now the value I was given for most of my trade stuff wasn't equal to the value that i could have gotten in a pure trade with another player, but Dealers have to trade for things at lesser then book value in order to make a profit. Some of the dealers (the backpacker types) that I saw at the tourney were gouging some people pretty hard, but some of the other ones we alot more 'fair'. Towards the end of day one, most of the player/traders were gravitating towards the fairer backpackers, and the vendors...the people that could be said to be gouging were making there money early when people were in desperate need, but later on, they were sitting around doing nothing whilst the fairer types were raking in the cards/cash. In the end, it all evens out, but the player/traders have to have care, if you want to trade up, about the only way to do it is to trade with dealers, and you won't get "fair value" for your cards.....but then again, they will take cards off your hands that you probably wouldn't have been able to get rid of anyways. You do it right, it all evens out in the end. In the last 6 months I have traded up for a Mox emerald and a Mox Jet, and the total of type one playable cards i have given up...6. One in the eye of chaos, a beat to shit Chain of meph(howeveryouspellit) and a playset of Tundras.

Simple Rules for trading
1) player-player trades...know the value of both what you want and what you need, and don't budge an inch...there is always someone else you can trade with.
2)player-dealer...know what a dealer is going to value your stuff at, and don't budge from that either, but being binders and binder of stuff that has been sitting in your sock drawer in a box marked Jank. So what if a dealer only offers you 6 for you In the eye of chaos, then you can trade 40 priests of titana for .50 a peice. Remember that dealers will take stuff off your hands that no one but a type one budget player would touch, and you can have Mox in no time flat.

If you want it in economic terms: dealers provide a service (several services, actually), and if you want to take advantage of that, you're going to have to pay for it. Want to buy cards without having to trust the internet? Dealer. Want someone else to find all the cards you need for you? Dealer. Want someone who is willing to buy pretty much anything? Dealer. Want someone who will trade Power to you in exchange for cards that aren't power? Dealer.

If you'd rather spend your own time and money doing that, fine, but please realize that you're still going to have to pay for it.

Jacob is sooooo right.

[TracerBullet]

To those who think there is an accurate price for cards- There isn't.  The price for any card is simply the meeting place between what the seller wants to sell it for and what the buyer wants to buy it for.  Nothing more. 

Let's say I'm buying Black Lotus, and I'm willing to pay up to $50 for one.  Believe it or not, there are in fact Black Loti available for purchase for $50 or less, they're just difficult to find.  They often come in the form of a guy who long ago retired and wants to get $20 for dinner at the Reb Lobster, but they are in fact available.  So, if I buy my Lotus for $20, that IS the price for my Lotus.  The guy is happy with his lobster, I'm happy with my lotus.



Now, if I can't find one for $50 and I want to increase my ease of finding a lotus, basically decrease the amount of time that I"m going to have to look for one, I can increase how much I'm willing to pay for a lotus.  At $600, I can usually find a Lotus without too much trouble, and at this point I can start using sellers' services like EBay.  Does that mean a Lotus is worth $600?  No.  The price of a Lotus is whatever I can buy it for and whatever you can sell it for.

You've gotta remember that there's no tangible way of evaluating the worth of a card.  I personally have a Black Lotus that I'd be willing to sell for $800.  You give me that much and I'd give the card to you, no thoughts about it.  But at the same time, I've got a collection of altered Force of Wills that I wouldn't sell for anything less than $10,000.  Why?  Because they're worth more to me.  I enjoy having them.  They have a personal and sentimental value to me.  Does that make their price $10,000?  Unless I can find somebody willing to pay that price, no.


A more realistic situation would be something like- It's tournament day, and I've got 4 counterspells that I plan to use in my deck.  Somebody comes up to me and says "I'll give you $100 for your four MM Counterspells."  Those Counterspells are worth exactly $100 to him, not because that's what the market says but rather because that's what his personal circumstances say.  He has to have those Counterspells, and doesn't know of anywhere he can get them faster for cheaper. 



There is NO set price for any given card other than what the buyer is willing to pay and the seller is willing to get.

[Matt]

Believe it or not, there are in fact Black Loti available for purchase for $50 or less, they're just difficult to find.

This example doesn't really hold for the ultra-rare cards like Power. The incredibly low number of Moxen in existence make the Power market far less liquid than the market for, say, Watery Grave. Imagine the extreme scarce end of Magic card market - trying to buy a Proposal, or blue Hurricane for $50 - it is literally impossible, because there literally isn't anyone who will sell it for that low.

[Mykeatog]

Chemeng - I find it interesting that you can tell me what is wrong with my comparision - when I didn't even give it. You are a genius. I also would like to state that you are completely wrong in what you said about what the stock market is. As a matter of fact, why don't you read Tracerbullet's post, and that will give you some idea of EXACTLY how the stock market works.

Tracerbullet - Although what you are saying is true, I find it hard to not directly relate that to everything else that is every bought and sold, and wonder if because the ideas are true the conclusion may be false. I think a better conclusion would be - "the value of any card can't be defined over a period of time." What I am trying to get across is simple - there are times when cards have set values, but because magic = stocks, they flucuate, and can literally change over night. Most recently - Kataki, Loxodon Hierarch, and Life form the Loam.

[Whatever Works]

Tracerbullet hit most of the details right on the head...

Microeconomics 101... Supply And Demand...

Key Concepts...

Price = Whatever a person is willing to pay for it (regardless of its accepted "value" to the vast majority)

Supply/Demand = Supply goes down (card sees more play... Price goes Up!)
Supply/Demand = Supply goes up (card sees less play... Price goes down)

Seller Supply Curve = Cost for a seller to provide a good for sale... Older/Harder to find cards cost more money & effort to find therfore they cost more to supply... This shifts the supply curve to the left which lowers the quantity at a set price, and raises the overall price until market equilibrium...

***Buyer Expectations/Needs/Seasonal affects*** Buyer expects a specific good to become more essential (exp. buying basic supplys before a snow storm)... Demand for item will raise... Supplying Costs will raise... Price will Raise... Supply will drop...This could happen right before a PTQ/Event/new set Chase Rares etc... This is another affect for price changes... Other obvious influencing concepts are convenience...desperation...i diocy...

Buyer always acts in best intrest... This is a theory that all economics is based on... If a person wants to make the economic decision of smoking... He will get cancer, but to him spending $7 or whatever is worth it to him at that point in time, and goes unquestioned... Another example is that If a person can buy the same exact item at $1 each or $5 each... Will in most normal cases pay $1...

Do I feel that some sellers are scumbags trying to get ahead??? YES... Do I feel that they have a right to be??? Yes... There job is to make money... I feel that almost all of there methods are acceptable as long as they do it at the dealer table... I only have a problem with this when card sharks walk from table to table in events trying to force horrible trades on people by rushing them, and using poor sources for price values...

CARDS DONT HAVE PRICES!!! They are pieces of cardboard... Cards have VALUE that is different to every person, and finding that essential balance and compramising point is the key to every trade... If someone wont find that acceptable line just walk away...

If they say you wasted there time... Well then... They will probably rip off a kid and make up the time later... But, your not paying there salery in "time" to trade with you...

Kyle L.