[Card discussion] 'Castigate' from guildpact

[Harlequin]

ooh ooh I got it.
#1 - Decree without drain is really icky... I wouldnt go that route
#2 - yes you are going to be paying life like is a resourse (wich in type 1 it really is)

So!  the card that you should really use as your win is :
  Exaulted Angel

No one can outrace the angle.  Its a 3 mana -> 4 mana drop who swings for an 8 life differance.  the angel is hotness.

[Guli]

"B/W Control" prototype

Disruption:
4 Duress
4 Castigate
3 Shadow of Doubt
2 Orim's chant

Board Control:
3 Null Rod
4 Swords to plowshares
2 disenchant
1 Darkblast

Land kill:
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Power:
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's will
3 Skeletal scrying
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Balance

Mana:
4 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Plains
3 flooded strand
3 Polluted delta
4 Dark rituals
1 Black lotus
1 Mox pearl
1 Mox Jet

Creature/Kill:
2 Exalted Angel

[Harlequin]

You NEED balace in this type of deck now.  Granted it will most likely cause you to fully discard most / all of your hand, because you dont run very many creatures it will win games.  I would say go either
-1 shadow of doubt  OR
-1 darkblast   OR
-1 disenchat

and  +1 balance

If you do that I would highly suggest ramping up your white mana.

Mana:
4 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Plains
3 flooded strand
3 Polluted delta
4 Dark rituals
1 Black lotus
1 Mox pearl
1 Mox Jet

... all it needs now is an anti-stax sideboard

[Guli]

If you ask me balance is tha bomb (especially against that hard aggro matchup)

-1 darkblast
+1 Balance

Do i really want that 1 darkblast in this deck? I rather have Vampiric tutor or something to get balance or Will or my win condition.

[Draven]

You NEED balace in this type of deck now.

Doh! I missed thta in my last post. Yes, Balance is defiantly needed.

Do i really want that 1 darkblast in this deck? I rather have Vampiric tutor or something to get balance or Will or my win condition.

I think that one Darkblast is going to be good. It will really help in the Stax/CS match up. Plus it is pretty good against Food Chain. (Speaking of Food Chain, an early Balance will wreck them.)

I would actully leave the Darkblast at 2 and drop the Disenchant down to 2 and replace the 3rd Disenchant with the Balance. A very subtle change, but 3 Disenchant seems a trite too much.

[Guli]

i just played 30 games against an aggro deck and a control deck. It is really strange playing with this deck. It has so many interesting corners.

Orim's chant ownez Will

Balance is unbelievable in this deck

Shadow of doubt,wasteland/strip and Null Rod really wreck opponents mana base.

Skeletal scrying is more powerfull in this deck than i thought

I have to say sometimes it was hard to find 2 black mana for SOD..

The angels are very strong but there were many situations i wanted a Decree of justice. Actually what were we thinking? Only 2 win conditions? I think this deck needs Decree of Justice. It is good against stack. The cycle ability can not be countered and this is important against control. Most of the time i could not cast the angel because she was my only win condition left and opponent had a plow or counter. Making 4-5 small tokens is the solution for this.

+1 Decree of justice

I do not know what to cut off though, the angels should stay

maybe 1 STP?
Vampiric/Demonic can get Will or Balance, i want to keep the tutors
maybe move darkblast to SB entirely?

[Harlequin]

Even with Rits I dont think this deck can support the mana needed to make Decree work well.
I guess it would work well against stax or UB (and possibly UW) fish.

Other than that whats your sideboard?

[Guli]

For now

Sideboard

2 Darkblast
2 Disenchant
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Plague
3 Sacred Ground
1 Null Rod
3 Pithing Needle


Maindeck

Creatures
2 Exalted Angel

Spells
1 Balance
4 Castigate
4 Dark Ritual
1 Darkblast
1 Decree of Justice
1 Demonic Tuto
2 Disenchant
4 Duress
2 Orim's Chant
3 Shadow of Doubt
3 Skeletal Scrying
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will


Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
3 Null Rod

Lands
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Flooded Strand
4  Plains
4 Scrubland
1 Strip Mine
2 Swamp
4 Wasteland

[49 Cents]

Decree of Justice is terrible in a deck that doesn't run Mana Drain. What are you going to do, Ritual into it? Ritual into Scrying might be okay, but Ritual into Decree isn't. Also, you run THREE winconditions. That sure isn't enough. You don't have any countermagic, just Duresses and Castigates, which makes your Angels very vulnerable. And you're not the deck that just takes control over the game. You'll lose to topdecks like Tinker and Will (3 Shadow and 2 Chants aren't going to do very much about it) and you'll lose even harder to Staxx. Grounds may help but Staxx has Seal of Cleansing. Angels cost way too much to really do something.

Now might be a good time to start running Negator again. It's a gigantic thread, and that combined with Time Walks like Orim's Chant make it really dangerous. I urge you to at least try it out.

One quick note, if you cut the Angels you don't have to run 4 Plains and you can even run Necropotence. Plains are terrible.

[Guli]

Just because there is the possibility of combining decree and ritual doesnt mean you will do it every time. But when you do have a ritual and decree it helps a lot against aggro/fish. However i was never able to make more than 1 angel token. But i was happy with 5 1/1 tokens. Against control/stax its good because it is resp. cycle/permanent. The decree was nice everytime i drew it. And ritual into decree is not that bad. Why would it be. Maybe you guys mean it is not strong enough. That i can agree with. If you guys give me alternatives that are better i am willing to try.

*Turn 1 duress/Null rod seems nice
*Ritual/scrying was like heaven every time i played it. The early duress/rituals/fetches/.. are feeding the scrying so i am making every card usefull. I think this deck can support 4 skeletal scryings but something has to be done to that early loss of life.
*Ritual is a friend of Will
*Ritual helps casting Shadow of Doubt when they dont expect it because you have 1 mana turn 1. They go fetch without suspecting and you counter that.

Dark ritual is very usefull in this deck. But to be honost i have also doubt about the win conditions. There has to be more than 3 and it has to be cheaper and safer. Negagot is terribly wrong in this deck. You still can not protect it and it is simply the way this deck works.

-1 Decree of Justice
+1 Skeletal Scrying

The deck works as it is. However it needs a way to win and it has to fit perfectly in the deck gameplan. This deck weakens opponents hand by quality not quantity. The cards that are used to disrupt/destroy are being replaced with new cards by paying life. This gameplan is strong in vintage. But it does not win. The answer might be in the first page of this thread. Maybe this appoach is simply wrong and cheap creatures that pressure the opponent aswell with their abilities is the correct way to handle the win condition.

[Harlequin]

This might be a blast from the past... but "The Rack" ?
you might be able to work it in with some Hypies and mind twist.  I'm not sure thats the dirrection you want to take the deck.

-- W00t 100th post!

[Guli]

I was thinking about using additional hand disruption and adding 'the rack'

Hyppies instead if the angels/decree and adding the rack COULD solve some problem regarding the win condition.

[Harlequin]

I don't think I would cut the angel(s) all together maybe go to 1.
from the most recent decklist
-2 Orim's chant
-1 shadow of doubt
-1 scrying
-1 decree
-1 angel (to 1 angel)
= 6 open slots
+3 hypies
+2 the rack
+1 Mindtwist

Anthoer dirrection (although it is again another dirrection all together) is add Vindicate/mortify and negators.
again from originally posted last decklist
-2 scrying
-1 decree
-1 angel (to 1 angel)
-2 disenchant
= 6 slots
+3 vindicate (or mortify ... you loose artifact/mana denial and gain instant speed)
+3 Negator

[49 Cents]

Mortify is terrible. Swords to Plowshares and even Darkblast are superior in every way. If you feel the urge to run a 3 mana solution, just play Vindicate, but even that I don't want to play.

Negator is a better creature than Hypnotic Specter. The random discard ability is cute, but the clock is too slow. Flying doesn't matter in this format since there aren't many creatures anyway. With the coming of Darkblast, people don't even play with Fire/Ice anymore. The only burn in the format are Pyroclasms in the SB of CS and Gifts, but with hand control you can maintain them (they are not going to fetch out 2 Volcanic Islands so they can Wish and Clasm in the same turn; you run 5 Strips!). With 4 STP, 1/2 Darkblast and maybe Vindicate I don't even think Fish is that much of a problem.

5/5 for 3 is huge. Powering out a turn 1 Negator means the opposing player has 4 turns before they die. Four turns!

[Harlequin]

Yeah mortify is pritty terrible, i mentioned it because it was instantspeed kill for creatures (that could potentially block your negator) if your not feeling the pokeyness of vindicate, but would like the creature removeal go +1 swords +2 diabolic edict. 
Also swords can be a solution to dirrect damage on the negator.  If your negator gets say lightning bolted and you cant afford the 3 permanents you could always gain 5 life instead =P

[Guli]

Mortify is terrible. Swords to Plowshares and even Darkblast are superior in every way. If you feel the urge to run a 3 mana solution, just play Vindicate, but even that I don't want to play.

Negator is a better creature than Hypnotic Specter. The random discard ability is cute, but the clock is too slow. Flying doesn't matter in this format since there aren't many creatures anyway. With the coming of Darkblast, people don't even play with Fire/Ice anymore. The only burn in the format are Pyroclasms in the SB of CS and Gifts, but with hand control you can maintain them (they are not going to fetch out 2 Volcanic Islands so they can Wish and Clasm in the same turn; you run 5 Strips!). With 4 STP, 1/2 Darkblast and maybe Vindicate I don't even think Fish is that much of a problem.

5/5 for 3 is huge. Powering out a turn 1 Negator means the opposing player has 4 turns before they die. Four turns!

Aren't there other options than negator? There is no way i can protect the guy. I don't want to take a chance like that.

I do not like darkblast that much. What about powder keg or engineered explosives? null rod has to go then ofcorz

[49 Cents]

You have 4 Duress 4 Hymn 4 Castigate right?

Besides, what do you want to protect it for?

I'm pretty sure cutting Null Rod for Powder Keg (which is slow) or Explosives is wrong.

[Harlequin]

what type of protection are you talking about.  Blockers? Dirrect damage? what type of meta are you testing in?

[Guli]

4 Duress
4 Castigate
4 Swords to plowshares
4 Skeletal scrying
4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Balance

This is the core deck i want to use

I am not using hymn because it is not always effective. I said several times i am going for a control game rather than hand destruction. However hymn can be added if you give a good reason.Still i think if hymn is added you need some graveyard disruption aswell. I really want to make this deck something else than a discard deck. I want to take out KEY card out of his hand and keep control with strong board control cards. Maybe damping matrix and adding artifact mana is better in this deck than using null rod. After all this deck is aiming for hand/board controll and not mana disruption. Let him play all his moxes what is he going to do with it when he got no decent cards left in his hand or on the table.
he can do 1 thing. He can go tutor and topdeck something, that is why i think Shadow of doubt is a correct choice here. It is a card you should not underestimate. A lot deck go fetchland turn 1 and if you have acces to 2 black mana at that moment a very strong game is awaiting you. And with additional wastelands/strip you can keep his mana base crippled for a long time. But that is not the gameplan anyway. But that is what 'extras' SOD is giving you.
Against a big fat yawgmoths will or someone who is playing duress and you know tendrills is coming the perfect answer (counter) is Orim's Chant. Also when an opponent is topdecking a card you can play orim's chant on upkeep and duress/castigate it turn later. Orim's Chant can be played turn 1 and then you can get 2 or 3 mana against 1 wich is nice tempo gaining if you have a wasteland or shadow of doubt in your hand. Remember all of these disruption will be replaced by new cards thanks to the skeletal scrying by paying life. And the cool part is that the opponent will most likely not counter this because you are simply attacking his hand. I like this strategy
The only thing this deck can not prevent is power like time walk,ancestral recall,fact or fiction unless you could duress them out early. So if someone going broken you better have Orim and Shadow to at least disrupt him. But yea those broken cards are restricted for a reason and i should simply accept that i can't counter them. If you have suggestions for this please make them.

Ok so i tried to explain the main deck idea. So while i am playing all that disruption and filling up my hand i need to do something. Cards like STP are needed agains oath,welder,DC,aggro.. So i will thank myself for adding 4. Remember against oath you have duress/castigate/Orim to lure out their heavy counterwall before you remove the threat with STP. I feel like the oath matchup is going to be good. Back to the point, i need a good win condition. So my idea was removing null rod. Adding more artifact mana and try to abuse decree and scrying more in this deck (is null rod or damping matrix really needed?). I hope i was able to explain what i mean. Remember i like the cycle ability a lot. End turn ritual cycle for 3+5 gives me also 5 damage each turn. Or making 2/3 4/4 flying angels is also cute.

I have no idea how to fit all this in a decklist. Feel free to post a list guys. Here is my try:

Hand disruption/Counter
4 Duress
4 Castigate
2 Orim's Chant
3 Shadow of Doubt

Board control
4 Swords to plowshares
2 Darkblast
2 Disenchant

Draw
4 Skeletal scrying

Win
3 Decree of Justice

Bomb
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Balance

Mana
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol ring
1 Mana Vault
4 Scrubland
3 Plains
3 Swamp
6 fetch (3/3)
4 Wasteland
1 Strip mine
4 Dark Ritual

[Guli]

what type of protection are you talking about.  Blockers? Dirrect damage? what type of meta are you testing in?

I think negator would be a good SB card in this deck. There are several aggro decks in my meta and some red burn aswell.

[Harlequin]

I'm not fealing the decree.  I think the deck has better win conditions than just decree.  I whould at least stick to one angel, esp if your going to run 4 scryings ... wich is kinda crazy.
I would DEFINATELY not run 4 scryings and 0 necropotence.  
Also 3 scry 1 necropotence is crazy as well.  If you like the idea of filling your hand with goodies, I would say you might try this:
in your scrying + de slots:

1 enlightened tutor
1 disenchant
1 seal of cleansing
1 necropotence
1 skeletal scrying
1 tormod's crypt

It gives you an extra tutor that can do so much
Skeletal scrying for no mana every turn = necropotence
sweeping game 1 graveyard hate = tormods crypt
Oath/dragon answer = seal of cleansing
White/black Dark ritual for W -> WWW or BBB = black lotus
   ( or if you've used lotus you always have 1W -> 3 colorless  = mana vault. )

Running too many Scryings is anti-synergistic.  If you like the concept of paying 1 life for 1 card I would definatly work in necropotence.  Remember drawing a scrying with necropotence on the board is basically worthless.

[Harlequin]

Also necropotence turns Exaulted angel into 4/5 with 4 curiosities attached.

Necro + Exaulted = GG
...
Also i can't beleive your not creaming yourself over the angel in a red burn/aggro heavy metagame.  No burn deck can consistantly deal more than 4 damage every turn.  they are forced to use 2 spells/abilities to kill the angel at best.  Burn decks revolve around the idea "how can I deal 20 damage in 10 cards (7+draw for 3 turns)" as soon as you add some lifegain, the redburn plan falls apart, they just cannot maintain a solid stable flow of damage.

[Guli]

Decree has some ups:

It can be cycled at instant speed. This is very important. And you will creatre several permanents. We already discussed this is good against aggro and stax. I added that it is also good against control decks. A control deck can not deal with this deck easy  because i keep destroying his hand. They can not deal with a uncounterable card that creates several tokens. The angels are 1 threat and i can not protect it. With decree i am creating several win conditions. You see the difference? This way i can make 2-3 big angels (2 win conditions) with 1 card ( or 5-6 small ones). I added 4 scrying because every time i draw them i am very happy. I want to draw more and more, the life is not an issue with 4 STP,2 Darkblast,Decree,Balance
Maybe i should add Spirit Link A cheap way of dealing with creatures early game and a nice way to gain some life later on.

Necro is a bomb but what you suggest is not that interesting. It is very hard to get a necro AND an angels on the board and its harder to keep them on board. Somehow i think necro is dangerous in this deck. It would be game over against control but i don't think i would survive against fast decks. Scrying is mostly end of turn 3-4 cards paying 3-4 life early game. I can live with that cause i still have my draw phase. The amount of cards that go in my graveyard is huge so there are always cards to RFG for the scrying.

Cards that might be interesting:
Sensei
Spirit Link :p
Damping matrix
Moat
Seal of cleansing
Graveyard hate

Remember drawing a scrying with necropotence on the board is basically worthless.

Exactly

[Harlequin]

In the days of 4 color control...
 decree was the uncounterable control win.
 Skelletal scrying was the tide turning, game winning play (and helped your lib of Alex. become useful after the counterwar).
 and Ex Angel was the aggro answer.

The deck ran 1 of each of these cards and sometimes 2 angels or 2 scryes.

The reason these cards were powerful was because of mana drain.  They were the single kills after a good drain.  Now that contorl/drain decks have moved over to quicker wins (gifts going all the way).  Those cards' power has waxed and waned.   I think It might be time to find a better solution.  Dark ritual is only so good when casting these spells.  many decks (in thier ability to deal with fish) have either pyroclasm, Engineered explosive, or powder keg, in the side or maindeck.  I think dropping all your eggs into one basket is not a great idea esp for Decree.  If you think that scrying is better than necropotence thats your choice, but it seems like a terrible was of mana, esp when only green and white decks (the two least played colors) have access to reliable enchantment destruction. 

[Guli]

Yes, but this is not a Keeper and it does not run manadrain. Maybe it is time you forget about that old deck and start finding new ways of strong play. If you think i rely on ritual only you are wrong. The first 3 turns this deck is about disrupting hand and destroying some cards on the board. Because this deck fetches for basic land and got some artifact mana it will have a decent mana base until turn 4. At that point this deck plays occasionally duress and castigate when it draw into it but the rest of the mana is used for SOD and Orim and end of turn scrying. Those rituals are a bonus. But when i cast a scrying i am not necesairliy playing a ritual aswell. I can always try to play 3 scrying/1 Necro but without tutors don't ask me to play with 1 angel. It is too random i will most likely not find it. And that angel is very mana intensive. This deck is already very mana intensive and i honostly prefer Decree over Exalted Angel in this deck because the angel is weak target. Please try to understand that the loss of life is not that bad unless playing against a fast deck. But this deck has several ways of dealing with that kinda deck.

STP
Balance
Darkblast
Decree
Castigate (can remove creatures)
Orim's Chant

I believe these cards will make the aggro deck's job harder than you think. Not to mention these cards are good against a lot of other decks.

Basicly we are discussing the win condition

49 Cent proposes Phyrexian Negator
Harlequin proposes Exalted Angel

I think both can be added to SB i honosly do but not main deck and not only 1 copy. At least 3

[Harlequin]

I hate to say it, but your argueeing out of both sides of your mouth...
You say: I cant run negator because of fast aggro/burn decks
You say: I want to run X, Y, Z over angel because I play against control and the life loss doesnt matter and I need an uncounterable win.  Plus Im playing the long game so i dont need to worry about only playing my win on turn 8 or 9.

Now you might argue that well Decree is middle ground, it is equally Good.  Wich I see as a way of saying it is equally bad in all matchups.  Decree ultimately costs more mana than angel.  So as I see it... you have this continum
Meta .....: Agro <--- Agro/burn --- Agro/contro||stax ---> Control
Best card: [ -- Angel ------------- ]  [ Decree ][ Negator ----------]


It seems like to me Angel/Negator tagteam is vastly superior to running the more narrow Decree.

[Guli]

Is this something you had in mind Harlequin?

Hand disruption/Counter
4 Duress
4 Castigate
2 Orim's Chant
3 Shadow of Doubt

Board control
4 Swords to plowshares
2 Darkblast
2 Disenchant

Draw
3 Skeletal scrying -1

Win
2 Decree of Justice -1
2 Exalted Angel +2

Bomb
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Balance
1 Necropotence +1

Mana
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol ring
1 Mana Vault -1
4 Scrubland
3 Plains
3 Swamp
6 fetch (3/3)
4 Wasteland
1 Strip mine
4 Dark Ritual

SB:
1 Exalted Angel
3 Phyrxian negator
3 Sacred Ground
2 Disenchant
1 Shadow of doubt
3 Null Rod
2 Tormod’s Crypt

[Harlequin]

Yes ... But if it were my deck I would go
-1 scrye for +1 enlighted to find necropotence OR lotus.
And change 1 disenchant into a seal of cleansing.

As for the creatures that looks pretty solid. AND It allows for presideding based on what matchups you expect to see at a given tourny.

You have in the total deck:
3 Decree
3 angels
3 negators
---
with 4 main deck win condition slots.
For a small low proxy / low power tourny I would do exactly what you have 2 decree 2 angels
For a larger 15 prox max tourny I would probably do 2 angels 2 negators for game 1.

For the sideboard I would probably go -2 Disenchant + 2 Aura of silence.  Because of Uba mask and the threat of tinisphere.
Also maybe -1 shadow on the side for +1 dust to dust... if you expect to see alot of stax.

[Guli]

Thanks for all the help 

If you come up with something that might be a nice idea for this deck don't forget to post it.

[Harlequin]

So at a glance here is what I would say (keep in mind this is 100% hypathetical "on paper" analysis of the deck list)

Best matchup:
Combo - Traditional combo like TPS, Grim long, and Belcher (and combo in general) LOOSE to hand distruption, plus your packing shadow of doubt and orims chant for the extra "slap in face" effect.  I'm sure combo would call this deck combohate.dec
Favorable matchup:
Oath - You have hand disruption, tutor disruption, and creature removal.  hopefully you can resolve a win quickly post side you have negators + additional enchantment hate for the win.
Gifts/control - I again your orims and shadows will be your MVPs, plus any control decks really hate duress... add in constigate for win conditions and you got yourself a favorable matchup.  Also early game you dont have any bombshell drain targets that will cause you to loose.  Post side you've got negators for the speed clock, and tormods for the gifts ungiven control.
UB fish - Black fish will have a hard time sidestepping your darkblasts... unless they get an early wretch.  But you have swords to back your darkblasts.  Black fish generally runs less creatures than its W or R brothers so you ought to be able to win any races... plus your decree's will be relatively powerful.
Even Matchups:
UW fish - Your darkblasts will be less effective against UW because of the 2/2 mages and ninjas.  and your hand disruption will only be so good because you cant really duress and they run alot of 4of so castigate is only so-so.  Game plan is find balance ... scare your opponent with hand disruption (make sure to pull STP) and hope they over-commit thier board, then balance and drop an angel.  That should be game.  Post side you dont really have any good answers, so you'd probably want to go to 3 angels, and 3 decree, and side out your shadow's of doubt and disenchants (unless they run curiosity).  you might even grab a sacrede ground or 2 just to survive the wastelands.
Red Agro/Burn - Here is where you can wipe the sweat off your brow because you dont run negators on the main.  All you need to do is curb your scrying, and survive until they go into topdeck mode. At this point, if your still playing, you need to play that angel ASAP.  wile they are in topdeck mode (ie have no hand) they will need to stockpile say chain lightning + magma jet to kill your angel.  So if they keep a card ... you need to duress them.  thats how you will win.  I put them in the "even matchups" because I think your deck is inharently slower and some cards is in your deck will be dead, like scrying and necro. 
Difficult matchups:
Stax ... esp uba Here your discard effects are nearly worthless.  You have welder hate, but other than that your deck has a bad "topdeck" mode game  you cannot cycle your decree under uba mask, and you cant use any of your hand effects.  You need to ride your angel to victory.  With any luck you'll be able to drop your sacrede ground early game 2 and 3 for the win.
ILoveMyGraveyard.dec Here is where I put Dragon and Ichorid and dredge decks etc etc etc.  The decks that dont need to resolve more than 1 spell to win.  Hopefully 2 tormods will be enough, thats all i can really say.