[Card discussion] 'Castigate' from guildpact

[Guli]

I think this card has potential to bring back 'hand destruction' back in the scene.

"Castigate"
Info:  Color = Multi     Type = Sorcery               Cost = WB       Edition =  Guildpact (GP)

Target opponent reveals his or her hand.  Choose a nonland card from it.  Remove that card from the game.


Some cards that cross my mind when i think about a decklist

Withered Wretch
Castigate
Swords to plowshares
Duress
Kataki, War's Wage
Null rod
Chains of Mephistopheles
Sinkhole
Wasteland
Strip mine
Hymn too tourach
Dark Confidant
Devoted Caretaker

I am not presenting a decklist but i want to discuss this new card. I always loved hand disruption and now this card pops up. The RFG ability is what mostly interests me. Combined with the Withered Wretch and Swords to plowshares i think this deck will have a lot succes if it is build correctly.

[Harlequin]

Back in the day, as i was just entering the t1 scene.  I started with a deck that was BW disruption.  It ran Hypnotics, Hymn to torach, Gerard's verditic, STP, Vindicate, disenchant, balance, diabolic edict, chains of meph ... and the win was negators + the rack.  Had some memgrin action on the side too.
With the recent success of UW fish, and UB fish... then the emergance of WUB fish... maybe the next step is WB fish, and drop U all together
Its crazy, but sometimes crazy works.

[Gabethebabe]

That card is pretty good, but i´d prefer a Hymn over it.

Also BW hasn´t got a playable archetype and if you add the obvious blue, you will find the mana costs to inhibitive.

[xrizzo]

I think this card is terrible.  The color combo is nasty, the effect is only a bit better than duress, certainly not worth playing white, and playing it on turn 2.

[Guli]

Terrible? It is in many situations better than a Hymn. Quality is better than quantity in vintage. It can remove everything except land. Duress is better because it is faster. But Castigate is a good followup to completely shut down his hand. And RFG is important against welder. You can do hymn too tourach all game long a single welder will recover the opponent in a couple of turns. Also when opponent is trying to set up a deadly yawgmoths will this card will help.

2 color is very playable and sometimes it is easier to get B and W than getting 2 U up for mana drain. Vastigate is a preventing Dissipate for 2cc. Combining B and W gives you access to 2 preventing counterspells. Duress and Castigate. If you look at the UW fish with savannah lions and force of wills you will see that it is the other way around. The force is practicly free and he can use his mana to cast threats and still have a counte wallr. But the main difference is that my idea will attack HAND and not MANA BASE forcing someone to either cast or lose hand, mostly resulting to go in topdeck mode.
If i would try this card i would not see it as a discard deck but more a control deck. Blue counterspells are not always needed to call it control.

4 Swords to plowshares
4 Duress
4 Castigate
4 Withered Wretch
3 Chains of Mephistopheles


When I look at this list i see a lot potential. There is however the question does this deck need a draw engine.

Necropotence
Dark Conidant
Night's Whisper

Drawing more duress,castigate,wretch... i don't feel like that is strong. I think this deck should have 'consistency' and not brokingness.

Null Rod for example will indirectly disrupt hand. It will make the cards i could not catch (solomoxes,jitte,sensei top,...) idle. I know Devoted Caretaker seems somewhat weak in type 1 but it is a 1 mana permanent that stops bounce,oxidize,darkblast,naturalize,... it simply would be a nice indirect hand disruptor because it will stop your opponent from destroying your permanents. I can imagine some situations with Devoted Caretaker + Null rod. Still Devoted Caretaker is not a card you want to autoinclude. It should be tested though.

Adding mana base disruption is probably needed. So 5 strip effects should be added but i don't think this deck should add Sinkhole. It is not the game plan and  it would weaken the main strategy: Put him in a position with a useless hand or in best case scenario a empty hand.

What do you guys think of Mortify and Vindicate?


Let's not forget that black has access to the best tutors in the game. But using tutors in a deck that has almost 4 copies of everything is not that efficient. However when the hand disruption is done isnt it wise to put that kinda pressure on yourself to finish him fast? I was thinking about Negators but then i thought. Why would I have to hurry when i have gained 'control' of the game. I think the deck should automaticly go to a victory after a succesfull hand disruption. How is that possible? That is possible when you put down permanents that give damage and disrupt hand. Creatures in other words.

Withered Wretch: This guy is an answer to welder tricks, crucible,yawgmoths will,dredge/bazar

Kataki, War's Wage: This creature is mostly good if you want to disrupt mana base in my opinion. I don't want to include him to be honost.

Dark Confidant: Goes around Chains of M, has 2 power, drawback is ok, but it does not really hurt your opponent other than giving you card advantage. I think this guy would fit better than the Kataki

Devoted Caretaker: This card counters a lot cards and it is important that he has 2 thoughnes. Because death spark/Darkblast/Lava dart will not kill it in 1 shot. But Devoted Caretaker would also protect your land /Null Rod/Chain of M/Creatures. I am thinking of adding Worship and this guy wich will be pretty gay but i think it would be a strong setup. Not unbreakable but still solid.

Phyrexian Negator: A risky card but why not? Devoted Caretaker can protect it. It is possible to play it turn 1 ritual/lotus.

Hypnotic Scepter: Also possibly to play turn 1 with ritual or lotus. And i think this is a better choice than Negator. Can lock down an opponent with 0 cards in hand.


My choices would be

Devoted Caretaker
Hypnotic Scepter
Withered Wretch

[Harlequin]

Vindicate = hotness for this type of deck.  I think even better than sink whole (if you only had room for one or the other).  The next best "destroy target perminant" card is the awsome 4GG dessert twister!

I know the core deck isnt built yet, but you're definately going to want sacred ground on the side.  Your deck is going to be color dependant, and most likely run plenty of wasteland targets.  Therefore you might have trouble with stax esp Ubastax because they dont really ever have a hand to disrupt.  Your going to want an artifact hate sb so you can side out your hand disruption for board control.
Some ideas:
Obvious choices - Disenchant, Seal of cleansing
Rouge choices -
Abbayance
Dust to Dust (exactly 1,000,000 times better than R&R).
Aura of silence

[Guli]

Dust to Dust is definitly powerful. Nice card.

I think this deck should be about hand disruption and not simply emtying his hand (Just take out the important threats and deal with the rest). Yes against uba/stax or stax i probably have one 1 shot with a duress if i am lucky but look at the other cards aswell. There is Chains of Meph, wasteland against bazaar, Wretch and Swords to Plowshares against welder. There is graveyard hate in Plow,Wretch and Castigate. Seccond game will be very hard for the stax player because dust to dust and sacred ground are coming in along with other hate.

[Guli]

Orims chant
disenchant
swords to plowshares
diabolic edict
Cremate

Maybe isochron scepter can be tried

[Draven]

Dust to Dust (exactly 1,000,000 times better than R&R).

Not nessessarily...

Rack and Ruin
Cost:  2
Card Type: Instant  
P/T: 
Rules Text (Oracle): Destroy two target artifacts.

Dust to Dust
Cost:  1
Card Type: Sorcery 
P/T: 
Rules Text (Oracle): Remove two target artifacts from the game.

Rack and Ruin is a 1 colored Instant and Dust to Dust is a 2 color sorcery. Yes, the effect of Dust to Dust is more powerful, but at a higher cost. 3 Mana main phase better start to win the game for you (Yawgmoth's Will, Tinker).

I don't believe Discard is as strong as counters, however, I think this deck defiantly looks like it has potential. I don't believe less than 4 Dark COnfidants should be played. He is an absolute house in these kind of decks. Nothing costs more than 2, he gives you a card, and he beats for 2.

Nantuku Shade is a "safer" option over Negator. He isn't quite as fast, but with this deck, you are going to spend the first 3 -4 turns with massive disruption, that by the time the Shade hits, you will just have to go through the motion of turning your guys sideways. Hippy is a good option too, but only with Dark Ritual. See next paragraph.

Dark Ritual probably isn't good with all the white requirements. So with out Dark Rits, I would lose Hippy.

Chalice of the Void or Null Rod should be run as a 4-of. You will probably only ever set the Chalice for "0" or for "3".

Here is a rough deck idea that I came up with after this discussion. Note this has not been playtested.

Disruption
4 Duress
4 Castgate
4 Chalice of the Void or Null Rod (depending on Meta)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Darkblast

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Withered Wretch
4 Natuku Shade

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timewalk

3 Metagame Slots

4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Scrublands
4 Swamps
3 Plains
1 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus

Sideboard (based on my heavy Welder, FoodChain, Fish meta. Very little combo)
2 Dark Blast (Welder)
3 Engineered Plague (House against FoodChain, 3 mana mainphase, but says I win)
3 Sacred Ground (House against Stax)
3 Shadow of Doubt (Gifts)
4 Other metagame slots (Disenchant, Seal of Cleansing, Edict etc)

The power blue and 1 Island may not look like it fits this deck, but it does. With the amount of fetches, you can grab the one Island if you end up with the Walk or Recall in your hand. You don't want to do that in the beginning few turns if you have disruption, but mid-game when you need to fill your hand up or take an extra turn for the win, it is pretty good.

You also don't want to fetch out the duals in the beginning. The duals are only in the deck for if you have the off color fetch and you need the other color (example: you have a Polluted Delta, but need white mana, fetch out the Scrubland.)

I would be interested if someone sleeved up a deck like this and let me know how it does...

[Guli]

Since i started this thread i will sleeve it up. I ll try to post results.

I prefer Null rod over chalice in this deck but what about isochron scepter? If scepter can be fit in this deck then chalice would be the choice over null rod.

Suppose these changes were maid

 -2 Darkblast (i really don't think darkblast is strong enough in this deck. There are plows,wretchs,vastigate and chalice to stop welders...)
+3 Isochron scepter
+3 orim's chant
-1 timewalk (i realize how strong walk is but i want to go with the chants)

-4 Null rod
+4 chalice of the void (there is the possibility of playing a chalice of 1 with the scepters)


Somehow i feel shadow of doubt would fit in maindeck aswell. But what can be cut out?

Update: I think the shades are not needed aswell.

-4 Nataku Shades

+2 Shadow of doubt
+2 Disenchant

[Draven]

Since i started this thread i will sleeve it up. I ll try to post results.

I prefer Null rod over chalice in this deck but what about isochron scepter? If scepter can be fit in this deck then chalice would be the choice over null rod.

Suppose these changes were maid

 -2 Darkblast (i really don't think darkblast is strong enough in this deck. There are plows,wretchs,vastigate and chalice to stop welders...)
+3 Isochron scepter
+3 orim's chant
-1 timewalk (i realize how strong walk is but i want to go with the chants)

-4 Null rod
+4 chalice of the void (there is the possibility of playing a chalice of 1 with the scepters)


Somehow i feel shadow of doubt would fit in maindeck aswell. But what can be cut out?

Isochron Scepter is cute. It has always been a fun card, but not so practical. I don't think understand how the scepter works. When you activate the scepter (say inprimted with an Orim's Chant), it puts a copy of Orim's Chant on the stack. Then, the opponant has the option to respond (ie, Counterspell, Mana Drain, Force of Will etc.) So, if you have a Scepter with Orim's Chant inprinted on it and a Chalice for 1 in play, the Scepeter will put a copy of Orim's Chant on the stack, and then the Chalice for 1 will counter it.

I agree with the Shadow of Doubt, I couldn't find a place for it though.

Fianlly, about the Dark Blast. Most decks can counter the StP, Wretch etc. It is very difficult to keep countering the Dark Blast, that is why Dark Blast it so hot.

Good luck with the deck. Let me know how it works...

[Harlequin]

@ Dravin
I agree with what you said, but I guess I needed to add context to my arguement.  
Red decks typically run a ton of off color / colorless mana because they are often artifact / welder based decks.  Therefore clearly 2R is better than 1RR.  
On the otherhand a BW ... or any 2 color deck really is going to run a larger colored mana base, the deck you proposed I noticed did not run off color mox, crypt, vault, or sol ring.  Therefore something that cost 2W may as well cost WWW (or BWW so you can use your basic swamp too)  becasue 3 mana is 3 mana is 3 mana for a deck that only runs colored mana.
So for the same 3 mana you get to RFG major lockouts for your deck (namely Uba Mask).  

The instant Sorcery Arguement is by far more valid.  I thought it was an instant ... my mistake.  In fact your opp would weld in response to the dust for dust and fizzle the entire spell!  So perhapse its not that great.  If you have the darkblasts it may be the strongest answer to Uba Mask this deck has.  But perhapse Disenchant is wholey better.  Although Withered Wrech is actually synergistic with this card as well. because if they weld in response to dust, you can fizzle the weld by RFGing the GY target, and save Dust for Dust.

[Guli]

Since i started this thread i will sleeve it up. I ll try to post results.

I prefer Null rod over chalice in this deck but what about isochron scepter? If scepter can be fit in this deck then chalice would be the choice over null rod.

Suppose these changes were maid

 -2 Darkblast (i really don't think darkblast is strong enough in this deck. There are plows,wretchs,vastigate and chalice to stop welders...)
+3 Isochron scepter
+3 orim's chant
-1 timewalk (i realize how strong walk is but i want to go with the chants)

-4 Null rod
+4 chalice of the void (there is the possibility of playing a chalice of 1 with the scepters)


Somehow i feel shadow of doubt would fit in maindeck aswell. But what can be cut out?

Isochron Scepter is cute. It has always been a fun card, but not so practical. I don't think understand how the scepter works. When you activate the scepter (say inprimted with an Orim's Chant), it puts a copy of Orim's Chant on the stack. Then, the opponant has the option to respond (ie, Counterspell, Mana Drain, Force of Will etc.) So, if you have a Scepter with Orim's Chant inprinted on it and a Chalice for 1 in play, the Scepeter will put a copy of Orim's Chant on the stack, and then the Chalice for 1 will counter it.

I agree with the Shadow of Doubt, I couldn't find a place for it though.

Fianlly, about the Dark Blast. Most decks can counter the StP, Wretch etc. It is very difficult to keep countering the Dark Blast, that is why Dark Blast it so hot.

Good luck with the deck. Let me know how it works...

Ouch, that is right. I kinda knew how it worked but i simply was not thinking about the mechanics of chalice and scepter. I was already dreaming about me playing chalice for 1 and a scepter with ancestrall recal imprinted on it.

About darkblast and welder. I have 8 hand disrupting spells that can tak out counters so i really think i can plow that welder or cast my wretch don't you agree?
This deck is about not letting the other player RESOLVE his cards in his hand. Shadow of Doubt does that, orim's chant does that. Therefore i think Nataku shade does not belong in this deck. What are your thoughts about Devoted Caretaker?

[Draven]

 In fact your opp would weld in response to the dust for dust and fizzle the entire spell!  

Check out the Official Rulings on the Gatherer (www.magicthegathering.com) for Dust to Dust. I will paste if for you though, since I have it up...

Dust to Dust:
Oct 4, 2004 - If one target is removed or becomes invalid after declaration, the other target is still affected.

So getting rid of the artifact in response won't fizzle the spell.

Also, my only point is that when you said "Dust to Dust (exactly 1,000,000 times better than R&R)," that it isn't always true. Maybe in the particular build we are looking at, it may be better, but it isn't better in all circumstances (which is what I thought you were implying.) But since we don't have red in this deck, R&R was never brought (which is why I thought you were implying it was better in all circumstances.) So we both mis-understood and thats okay. We are straight now  

I didn't add the off color Moxen, Sol Ring or Crypt because there is very few colorless options in the deck I proposed. I still think Dark Blast is total hotness against Welders. UbaMask actually doesn't hurt this deck too much becasue there isn't a "draw" engine to disrupt. The Dark Confidants put the cards directly into your hand, so I wouldn't be too scared of the Uba Masks.

About darkblast and welder. I have 8 hand disrupting spells that can tak out counters so i really think i can plow that welder or cast my wretch don't you agree?
This deck is about not letting the other player RESOLVE his cards in his hand. Shadow of Doubt does that, orim's chant does that. Therefore i think Nataku shade does not belong in this deck. What are your thoughts about Devoted Caretaker?

Hmm, interesting points. However, I think you need a finisher. Vintage is the swingiest, most broken, if I top-deck the right card "I win" format. With out the ability to stop them from winning during their turn, I really think every extra turn you give them, is a bad idea.

Devoted Caretaker has a couple downfalls. One it is a 1/2, so the beats are pretty insgnificant. Plus, it has a tap requirement, meaning if you are swinging with him, you don't get his protection ability and if you use the protection ability, it is just sitting there waiting (and therefore not applying pressure.)

[Harlequin]

Dust to Dust:
Oct 4, 2004 - If one target is removed or becomes invalid after declaration, the other target is still affected.

So getting rid of the artifact in response won't fizzle the spell.

Wait a sec... back up... Seriously?  Is that true for all cards of this nature? like for example Gaea's Blessing (when you actually cast it)?  And if SO how is welder differnt from this type of card.  I thought it was target was made illegal it fizzled the entire spell.  Also how is mana drain not effected by this type of rule.
Actually dont answer on this. I'll bring it over to the rules forum.

[Draven]

Wait a sec... back up... Seriously?  Is that true for all cards of this nature? like for example Gaea's Blessing (when you actually cast it)?  And if SO how is welder differnt from this type of card.  I thought it was target was made illegal it fizzled the entire spell.  Also how is mana drain not effected by this type of rule.
Actually dont answer on this. I'll bring it over to the rules forum.

Everyone, here is the link to the question in the rules forum.

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=27158.0

And yes Harley, we do learn something new every day.

PS: Harly Quinn is probably my favorite Batman villian

[Harlequin]

Yeah I just never realized that the "ruleing" on Welder was just an Errata for welder and not for all multi-targeting cards.  This totally changes how I will play Gaea's blessing in the future.
---
The only reason I think Uba mask is a bad card against this type of deck, is not because It locks you out, its because it totally deadens all your discard spells.  I was mearly pointing out that if your going to run 8 discard(esq) effects your going to want to side them out against uba mask.  So your sideboard ought to have many answers for stax.  After thinking about Dust to Dust and other options I think all in all Aura of Silence and Seal of cleansing are your best bets.  Namely because Even instant speed cards like disenchant can only be played durring your turn (bc of the uba mask) granted you could end up with them in hand becuase of confidant but you are forced to reveil it wich somewhat ruins the surprise.  I think if you have to have the surpise ruined anyway... you might as well run your aura/seal cards.  I like aura in this deck more because the extra white wont be too hard to swing in this deck AND you make the uba mask / bazaar much more difficult to use because your opp will not be able to play as many spells (when everything costs 2 more).  Adding Kataki to the side might also be useful for the same reason.  It taps out the artifact mana, thus dampening thier play long enough to get in your beats. 
The aura also (like the seal) can be used at instant speed to stop dangerous welds.  even under uba mask

[Draven]

After thinking about Dust to Dust and other options I think all in all Aura of Silence and Seal of cleansing are your best bets. 

I think you are right... Once the mask is out, they are great ways to play around the mask. My thoughts would be the Aura of Silence are better (based on the deck list I proposed) because the deck is 2/3 Black, 1/3 White, so the double white 'might' be a little difficult, plus, it will allow you to play out the Aura and a threat/disruption verses just playing the enchantment.

Hell, even if the mask isn't out, if they see the enchantment staring them down, they are going to play around it and that will just buy you a turn or two more for disruption and beats.

[Guli]

I think the list i am posting now is a strong start

Hand disruption:
4 Duress
4 Castigate

Board Control:
4 Null Rod
4 Swords to plowshares

Land kill:
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Withered Wretch

Power:
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Yawgmoth's will

Mana:
3 Scrubland
4 Swamp
3 Plains
1 Island
1 Black lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand

8 open slots left.

How about raw and simple?

+4 Disenchant
+4 Vindicate

[Draven]

I think the list i am posting now is a strong start

Hand disruption:
4 Duress
4 Castigate

Board Control:
4 Null Rod
4 Swords to plowshares

Land kill:
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Withered Wretch

Power:
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Yawgmoth's will

Mana:
3 Scrubland
4 Swamp
3 Plains
1 Island
1 Black lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand

8 open slots left.

How about raw and simple?

+4 Disenchant
+4 Vindicate

1. I don't think you have enough threats
2. You have 12! removal cards. That is way too many. Maybe:

-2 Disenchant
-2 Vindicate
+4 Creatures

[Meddling Mike]

I really don't know why anybody would think that this card is playable in vintage, it's essentially the worst little duress ever. Sure, maybe you'll hit a mindslaver with it while he's got an active welder on the table or find your opponent with a fist full of creatures or no worthwhile non-creature spells and you can give yourself a cookie for the trouble, but the fact that you've doubled the casting cost adding a white mana to the cost (B/W is traditionally a very weak color combination) makes this card just unplayable. The flexibility added is not nearly worth it.

[Harlequin]

4 null rods is alot for the maindeck.  Even Fish (wich runs only 3 tappable artifacts) only runs 3 MD and 1 on the side. I would say...  The blue splash is cute, but I would say go with consitancy.

-1 null rod (move to side)
-1 island
-1 Recall
-1 Timewalk

12 slots
+2 Disenchant
+3 Vindicate
+4 Dark rituals
+1 Necropotence
+2 Hypnotic Spectors (or +2 negators depending on your meta)

[Guli]

I really don't know why anybody would think that this card is playable in vintage, it's essentially the worst little duress ever. Sure, maybe you'll hit a mindslaver with it while he's got an active welder on the table or find your opponent with a fist full of creatures or no worthwhile non-creature spells and you can give yourself a cookie for the trouble, but the fact that you've doubled the casting cost adding a white mana to the cost (B/W is traditionally a very weak color combination) makes this card just unplayable. The flexibility added is not nearly worth it.

Look man i use to play a black discard deck far back. It had 4 duress 4 hymn too tourach 2 stupor 4 hyppie. Damage was dealth with megrim and the rack. What i want to say is a discard deck can really destroy an opponents hand and actually give a lot damage before opponent recovers. And eventually sealing the game ofcourse with a victory. However back then there were no graveyard tricks. Nobody abused the graveyard like they do now. Nowdays the graveyard has become an extra resource and almost every deck tries to use that resource. The old way of a discard deck was quantity focussed in my opinion (the rack,Megrim) Now i would like to give the concept hand disruption another try. The only way to make a 'discard' deck compete is dealing with that graveyard aswell because damn card are not dead anymore these days even if you duress or hymn it is possible that the next turn all those cards are in play and you lose the game. With castigate the card does not go to the graveyard but it gets removed AND you can chose everything except land. This can sometimes be very important (oath creatures ,colossus,trisk,pentavus...) but that is not the full power of this card. Anyway the ideas posted here are great but i still think the card has even more potential. I am going to sleeve it up and play with it a while and i hope to understand the deck and make changes and post it here.
Finding B and W is not that hard in my opinion really. You are going to fetch for a swamp and a plain anyway the first turns.

[Guli]

The blue splash is cute, but I would say go with consitancy.

I wouldn't dismiss the blue splash that fast my friend. My first reaction was also a little sceptical. However the power of ancestral recall has a lot of impact on this deck. You could draw an extra duress,plow,disenchant,.. going 3 cards deep and filling your hand is very nice. Time walk is absolutely powerfull aswell. 1 island and 6 fetches for 2 cards. This sounds like that adding fastbond and crop rotation to ubamask dont ya think? However maybe the deck should run
-1 island
-1 plains

+1 tundra
+1 undeground sea

You are going yo use the BLUE mana when you cast recall or walk anyway but then you can still use that land for other spells

[Harlequin]

I think if your going to try and incorporate brokeness you'll get more consistancy off Dark Rits and Necropotence.  This way you can first turn duress + creature OR first turn Necropotence or hypnotic (if you run them).  I think that your blue spells are a bit to random to be good. 

[Draven]

I think if your going to try and incorporate brokeness you'll get more consistancy off Dark Rits and Necropotence.  This way you can first turn duress + creature OR first turn Necropotence or hypnotic (if you run them).  I think that your blue spells are a bit to random to be good. 

The "randomness" of the blue spells is what makes them hot. *Shock*

They are not essential to the game plan, therefore, there won't be a card(s) clogging up your hand. As powerful as Dark Ritual is, there is nothing worse then being in top-deck mode and pulling a Dark Rit off the top. At that point, a TimeWalk is almost as bad, unless you have a creature that can swing, but Ancestral... That is a whole 'nother story.

I worry about the blue duals, and I will tell you why. I ran a mono-black control (not sui) with Time Walk, Ancestral and an Underground Sea. That Underground Sea ALWAYS migrated to my opening grip. The Sea is not a card you want to see in your opening hand (or the Tundra.) THis is why I switched to one Island and have never looked back.

[Guli]

I have to agree i rather have a necro on the board. Don't forget under a ubamask a necro is unaffected but a recall is not... And rituals are strong in the right deck.

If anybody is still interested in this idea i am going to ask a question. I dont know if someone noticed but i am not really happy with the decklist we produced. I would like to ask everybody reading this thread to think about making this a control/keeper deck but just think away the force and manadrains and replace them with duress and castigate. Instead of waiting you agressivly attack his hand but the outcome is the same: You prevent him from playing certain cards and disrupt him and take a good look in his hand and anticipate your own next move along with his. You gain valuable information and i think this should be exploited better. And i think the kill should be more powerfull than some utility creatures beating down the opponent.

There is another issue. When a blue control deck gains control of the game he can protect and fend off new drawn threats (topdeck) with counters. This problem can be partly dealt with Shadow of Doubt. With this card you stop your opponent from fetching early game (winning tempo) and mid game you stop him from tutoring into a powerfull card that might turn the tide.

I would like to see a list with minimal use of creatures or even without. I have to admit that i really like the wretch and yea that confidant is really cute aswell. But the wretch is there to kill graveyard and i think there are other solutions for that. Lets discuss that why not. Take in account that STP and Castigate are already immune to this problem causing less problems. About the confidant: it is reveal wich is nice against ubamask. There are not many high CC cards so it fits the deck. However i feel like there must be better ways of getting cards (necro,skeletal scrying). Think about it. Early game all you want to do is disrupt hand and maybe strip a land. You take out some key permanents and the result should be a crippled opponent waiting for card that will save him. You really want to fill up your hand because you have build up a nice mana pool. in the first 3-4 turns. Skeletal scrying seems like the ideal way to do this: mana+cards in graveyard+life. By filling your hand with new plows,duress,disenchant,... you can keep up the pressure and throw down your win (wich could be a big fat creature, negator maybe? masticore?)

-4 Dark Confidant
-4 Withered Wretch
-2 Disenchant
-4 Vindicate
-1 Null Rod

17 slots

+3 Skeletal scrying
+1 necropotence
+2 Wins (Decree of justice,negator,..)
+4 Dark ritual
+3 Shadow of doubt
+2 Cranial Extraction (graveyard hate)


Decklist "No name" (i don't have a name yet)

Disruption:
4 Duress
4 Castigate
3 Shadow of Doubt
2 Cranial Extraction

Board Control:
3 Null Rod
4 Swords to plowshares
3 disenchant

Land kill:
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Creatures:
2 Decree of Justice

Power:
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Yawgmoth's will
1 Necropotence
3 Skeletal scrying (not really power but yea)

Mana:
2 Scrubland
4 Swamp
3 Plains
1 island
1 Black lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Dark ritual

This is the direction i want to go to be honost. This does not mean the list i posted is better than the list with creaures. But i think that is because this list is not optimal and if we can discuss this appoach we can still decide wich would be better.

[Draven]

I would like to ask everybody reading this thread to think about making this a control/keeper deck but just think away the force and manadrains and replace them with duress and castigate.

Guli, I see where you sre going with this. It just seems to me, that this should feel more like an aggro/control (fish) vs a Keeper Control. Although, I am seeing some sick Dark Ritual-> Skeltal Scrying or Decree'in.

With the addition of more bombs, I think Demonic Tutor should find its way into this deck.

One downfall of this deck that I see is with Skeletal Scrying, Necropotence and 6 Fetches, you are going to be paying a ton of life. That why the keeper of lore ran Exalted Angel. This particular build will be very strong against a Gifts metagame, however any aggro deck will roll this one over. Ca you fit Ms. Hotness (Exalted Angel) in place of the Decrees? The double white scares me though.

Finally, with more Keeperish looking deck, perhaps Mind Twist needs to find a slot?

Also, I just noticed, if your opponant topdecks a Will, there is nothing really stopping them from going broken (except the Castigates).

I will tell you, I do not agree with the direction you are going (away from the aggro/control) however, this is your deck idea, so I will keep offering as much assistance I can with the direction you are going.

[Guli]

I would like to ask everybody reading this thread to think about making this a control/keeper deck but just think away the force and manadrains and replace them with duress and castigate.

Guli, I see where you sre going with this. It just seems to me, that this should feel more like an aggro/control (fish) vs a Keeper Control. Although, I am seeing some sick Dark Ritual-> Skeltal Scrying or Decree'in.

With the addition of more bombs, I think Demonic Tutor should find its way into this deck.

One downfall of this deck that I see is with Skeletal Scrying, Necropotence and 6 Fetches, you are going to be paying a ton of life. That why the keeper of lore ran Exalted Angel. This particular build will be very strong against a Gifts metagame, however any aggro deck will roll this one over. Ca you fit Ms. Hotness (Exalted Angel) in place of the Decrees? The double white scares me though.

Finally, with more Keeperish looking deck, perhaps Mind Twist needs to find a slot?

Also, I just noticed, if your opponant topdecks a Will, there is nothing really stopping them from going broken (except the Castigates).

I will tell you, I do not agree with the direction you are going (away from the aggro/control) however, this is your deck idea, so I will keep offering as much assistance I can with the direction you are going.

Yes the decree of justice is not a card i have to keep. It was just an idea that is replaceable. I just need a decent win.

Ii was thinking about Cranial Extraction. When the matchup against gifts is strong anyway maybe it is not needed and maybe Darkblast should take those 2 slot. It imporoves matchup against welder and will help against some aggro.

Yes topdeck is a problem. Cranial Extraction is strong against a topdecked Will but i was just talking about replacing it with darkblast.

I don't know for now i need to think

[Guli]

Guli, I see where you sre going with this. It just seems to me, that this should feel more like an aggro/control (fish) vs a Keeper Control. Although, I am seeing some sick Dark Ritual-> Skeltal Scrying or Decree'in.

Yes the rituals will help this deck early to be more explosive and mid game they will not be a dead card with the skeletal you will actually be happy to have a ritual. I like to build up decks like this. Making every card usefull in the opening and mid game. Just like shadow of doubt.

Orims chant can solve the topdeck problem. You cast a Will i repsond with Chant. Chant can be a time walk sometimes aswell.

I think the blue really has to go, dont you see there are Black and White cards that do almost the same thing as the recall and time walk but just in a different way. That is what i am trying to do here from the start. The duress and castigate replace the counters. Skeletal replacec draw. Plows/Disenchants are present.
Shadow of doubt, Orim,... timewalk/stifle

The difference is the time when you play a counter and when you play a duress. It is no longer reactive but it is simply taking initiative. That is not a bad thing!

I think demonic tutor should come in and also orim's chant. Orim is also a good card to play when you want to play something important. It will protect you against counters just like duress would.

But what has to go? How many Orim? Is darkblast really needed and how many? Sideboard is important how should it look like?