Ancestral Recall Discussion

[Draven]

I know in a lot of decks, the game plan is different, but I want to talk about the general uses of the best card drawing card: Ancestral Recall.

The focus of this discussion is when you see Ancestral in your opening hand. Usually, if you can resolve an Ancestral before your opponent, you are in good shape, however, if you have an Ancestral in your opening hand, should you immediately cast it? Now by immediately, I do not mean first main phase necessarily, but early (say by the end of your opponents first turn.) Let’s assume you are playing a Mana Drain deck in these examples. Here are the examples (in all examples, you are going first.):

Example 1: You have an Ancestral and other random stuff (nothing spectacular, some lands, some business). Would you cast during your opponents upkeep, wait to respond to a spell or during their end of turn (assuming they do not cast another spell.)

Example 2: You have a pretty powered hand (Ancestral and several Moxen) but no business. Would you Ancestral during your main phases or during opponents turn (the Ancestral wouldn’t put you over 7 in hand.)

Example 3: You have a good hand (Ancestral, Island, Island, Sapphire, Mana Drain, Force of Will and Brainstorm),  you would obviously play the Island/Sapphire go, but would you Ancestral at the end of their turn (assuming you do not Mana Drain) or do you save the Ancestral for after the counter war you are prepared for to fill your hand back up?

Example 4: You have a hand full of business, and Ancestral and 1 mana source (Island). Would you keep the hand, hoping the Ancestral into more mana sources, or do you throw it back and draw six?

Some of these examples are more intuitive than others. I understand it depends on what deck you are playing, what the other cards your hand is, but I was hoping to discuss the most played card that is really the least talked about.

[edit]:fixed spelling error

[Harlequin]

Personal Play style - In my Oath deck (the mono-blue oaht build)

Example 1: Always upkeep... Unless I have some other turn 1 play (like say annul)
Example 2: Probably... but not definate (as in I would in GWS oath, but for my moxen-less oath... maybe not).  If I can cast it before dropping a land, like off lotus petal or saphire I would.  Bc esp in oath If i can turn 1 an orchard mox oath.. I would want to try.
Example 3: I would not cast it until I had UUU open, because at that point I want them to force/misdirrect so i can drain the counterspell so I will have the potential for card + 5 mana.
Example 4:  is the most complex
If I dont know what my opponent is playing: I might keep it if the other cards were low casting cost (esp if it is a basic Island).  If it were a non-basic or a blue artifact mana, I would definatly not keep.  If it were a fetch and I was on the play I would keep (and fetch basic), if I were on the draw I would probably not keep with a fetchland because of stifle or shadow of doubt... not worth the risk.  All of this is assuming it is my original 7 card hand.  If I mulled into 1 land recall + 4 other goodies I would not risk a mull to 5.
If I know what my opponents playing, It all depends on expected tempo of my opp's deck, AND there ability to disrupt the mana sorce im looking at.

[Draven]

If I know what my opponents playing, It all depends on expected tempo of my opp's deck, AND there ability to disrupt the mana sorce im looking at.

Yeah, that is the big stipulation. I am mainly thinking game 1 on the play, you have the least amount of information, so therefore the plays should be more standardized.

What are other's thoughts? I know there are just as many decks as play styles. I want to hear from more aggressive players as well as conservative players...

[Liam-K]

I agree with harlequin fully on examples 1 through 3. 

On example 4, I will probably keep if my hand contains force of will, and probably throw it back if it does not.  This is really going to be the deciding factor.  I don't think I would throw it back on the play out of fear of stifle, my 6 card hand has a better chance of being worse than this one than the chance I have of losing my land to bad cards.

[Harlequin]

it really depends on the rest of your deck question 4.  If you've got a ton of mana scorces in there then you've got a good chance of getting more mana.  But even force is not going to stop them from going first turn wasteland.  Most fishdeck will see that main hand deulland and jump on a first turn wasteland.

[Draven]

it really depends on the rest of your deck question 4.  If you've got a ton of mana scorces in there then you've got a good chance of getting more mana.  But even force is not going to stop them from going first turn wasteland.  Most fishdeck will see that main hand deulland and jump on a first turn wasteland.

Okay, lets look at this example from a different angle:

Are you worse off with:

Mulling your 7 card 1 dual/Ancestral hand into 6 random cards

or

Keeping your 7 card 1 dual/Ancestral hand, getting your Dual wasted during their main phase, casting Ancestral in response and having 8 cards (9 after the draw) during your next turn (and of course, no lands)

[Kowal]

I thought this thread would be a joke when I saw the title (think of a certain mono blue aggro-control thread in the improvement forum to get what I'm implying) but there's actually a solid amount of content in these questions.  Finding out how the players you emulate answer these is a great way to get better.

Example 1: You have an Ancestral and other random stuff (nothing spectacular, some lands, some business). Would you cast during your opponents upkeep, wait to respond to a spell or during their end of turn (assuming they do not cast another spell.)

I would cast Ancestral immediately, on my own turn.  This is more of a no-brainer if I'm holding a mox or two so I know I won't have to discard, or something big and dumb like a Colossus or a Mindslaver.  Developing your board position is usually of paramount concern, and I'm far more worried by things like Chalice of the Void and Sphere of Resistance than I am with Gorilla Shaman.  Waiting not only denies you immediate board position, but gives your opponent to topdeck the Force of Will they didn't have before.

You'd be surprised how often you will Ancestral in to an on color mox or Black Lotus (or even Lotus Petal) and be able to chain a couple other spells together to develop such a hefty advantage that the game is over before it starts.

Example 2: You have a pretty powered hand (Ancestral and several Moxen) but no business. Would you Ancestral during your main phases or during opponents turn (the Ancestral wouldn’t put you over 7 in hand.)

Same as above!  Ancestral immediately.  Giving your opponent chances to find outs for your only business is a sure-fire way to lose the game.

Example 3: You have a good hand (Ancestral, Island, Island, Sapphire, Mana Drain, Force of Will and Brainstorm),  you would obviously play the Island/Sapphire go, but would you Ancestral at the end of their turn (assuming you do not Mana Drain) or do you save the Ancestral for after the counter war you are prepared for to fill your hand back up?

Leave your drain mana up to protect your Ancestral.  The proper play here is almost always going to be Island, Sapphire, pass, no end of turn effects (to keep your Drain online for their own ancestral or other threat, and because Brainstorm is mediocre when the cards in your hand are already good) and then play Ancestral when you get the third blue source to stick.  I would cast Ancestral in my second main phase to get a chance to abuse the 5 incoming Mana Drain mana rather than burn for it, but still on my own turn, once again to push for development of board position.  Should it become necessary, this leaves me with Force of Will still online, hopefully with a second blue card so I can either Brainstorm to refill or cast whatever blue card I drew pitching that Brainstorm.  Ideally I drain their force, draw in to gifts, counter whatever threat they cast on their turn with Force pitching Brainstorm, and then burn some drain mana going crazy with a big Gifts.  My biggest worry here is finding colored mana to really abuse that scenerio properly.

Example 4: You have a hand full of business, and Ancestral and 1 mana source (Island). Would you keep the hand, hoping the Ancestral into more mana sources, or do you throw it back and draw six?

Depends severely on what qualifies as "business".  If Brainstorm is in there, then I'd probably lead with that, since I don't expect it to be countered and as such won't cost me tempo by forcing me to tap out on my second turn mainphase just to dig for a land drop.  If it's all crap like Gifts, Thirsts, Welders, what have you, then I would throw it back.  It's definitely a throw-back hand if your opponent is playing stax on the play, since they have about ten thousand ways to negate your hand turn one, and are pretty likely to kill that one land real fast.
I would also throw it back if it had more than two of the following cards:
Mindslaver, Darksteel Colossus, Pentavus, Sundering Titan, Burning Wish, Tendrils of Agony, Merchant Scroll, Imperial Seal

[vartemis]

Example 1: You have an Ancestral and other random stuff (nothing spectacular, some lands, some business). Would you cast during your opponents upkeep, wait to respond to a spell or during their end of turn (assuming they do not cast another spell.)

I would cast it on my turn, especially if I was on the draw.  It could allow you to keep an otherwise subpar hand and draw into a FOW or accelleration.

Example 2: You have a pretty powered hand (Ancestral and several Moxen) but no business. Would you Ancestral during your main phases or during opponents turn (the Ancestral wouldn’t put you over 7 in hand.)

Fire it off on my main phase.  If you have the gunpowder, you might was well dig for the fuse right away.  Not casting would waste the advantage you have with all the accel in your hand.  Turn 2 you are not getting nearly the advantage as you would on your turn 1. 

Example 3: You have a good hand (Ancestral, Island, Island, Sapphire, Mana Drain, Force of Will and Brainstorm),  you would obviously play the Island/Sapphire go, but would you Ancestral at the end of their turn (assuming you do not Mana Drain) or do you save the Ancestral for after the counter war you are prepared for to fill your hand back up?

I would drop the Island and the sapphire and pass.  If one of the islands was a fetch, I would sit with the two mana open.  You could either drain or FOW on your opponents turn, and if they don't do anything, brainstorm off the sapphire, crack the fetch and ancestral.

Example 4: You have a hand full of business, and Ancestral and 1 mana source (Island). Would you keep the hand, hoping the Ancestral into more mana sources, or do you throw it back and draw six?

Mull.  1 mana source, let alone a land, is not really enough to do anything.  If you were to keep the hand, the logical play would be to drop the island and ancestral, praying to the mana gods for some sort of accel.  I think the only time I would do this is if I was playing slaver.  This could put my hand over 7 and allow me do potentially dump some welder targets.  Any other deck I would think the odds are against you.

j

[nataz]

2,3, and 4 I totally agree with what Kowal said. On question 1 I think it needs to be opp upkeep at the latest. I think casting it on my own turn depends on if I'm on the draw/play, and exactly what I have in my hand.

On the draw, figure you have 8 cards -> with a land drop. -> 6 with recall, and if it resolves ->9. It would be a shame to discard, so you kinda have to consider what you would actually draw. Lots of decks play recall, but not every deck is capable of dumping your hand (i.e., fishy).

[Kowal]

If I were playing fish with a Lotus or with Chalices, I would still Ancestral right away.  If I were playing like, oldschool U/R Fish without lotus, I would consider doing it at the upkeep.

[Gabethebabe]

Example 1: In their upkeep. I would never cast AR if I´d had to discard after that, so do it in their turn, before they draw.

Example 2: Cast it now. Since I have moxes, I will not discard, so maybe I can play more stuff I draw off it.


Example 3: Going island, Sapphire, go is almost certainly going to win you the game.

Example 4: I have kep one-lanbd hands because of Brainstorm (a dubious strategy) so I would keep. I see 4 cards more before the next turn, that is only two less than I would see after a mulligan. If my opponent goes first and is know to play Duress, my decision would depend on the rest of my cards (FoW? Brainstorm?).

Of course, all my answers change if I know my opponent is playing misD. And if I play against a Shop deck, the one-land opening hands get shuffled back more quickly. Logical.

Another interesting question is: how often do you Mystical for Ancestral?

I hardly ever do that. I just hate it to burn two of the best cards in my deck to go up only one card.

[Kowal]

Don't think in terms of strict card advantage.  Think about the number of cards you see.  Thirst for Knowledge isn't amazing because it results in +1 card advantage, it's amazing because it draws three cards.  Mystical for Ancestral still draws three cards.

That said, most of the time I could be mysticalling for Ancestral, it's just better to get Tinker or Yawgmoth's Will or even Demonic Tutor (to grab Academy and go off, or Lotus to do the same.)

[Whatever Works]

Kowall was basically 100% spot on... There obviously specific circumstances but generally it breaks down to 2 situations...

1.) you cast it immediatly on your own turn (If your deck is very aggressive my nature)...

2.) you cast it on your opponents upkeep so you can avoid discarding cards (though there are obviously times when you would want to discard like DSC so you would thus play on your own turn)...

Last situation is when you can cast 1 turn later with full protection, or if you would rather bait a counter on a different card... Like dragon might go turn 1 sworm over turn 1 ancestral for numerous reasons... Though it SUCKS if they follow up with a duress lol.

Kyle L.

[Draven]

I think example 3 is the hardest. You have a really good hand, but no business.Maybe cast the Ancestral in the middle of a counterwar with all the counters on the stack? After they over commited trying the resolve their spell and Ancestral come out of no-where?

Just a thought...

[Lightning Dolt]

I agree with a lot of what was stated above, but there is another situation where Ancestral first turn comes in handy, and that is with the Dragon combo. Often times I find myself with an OK mana base, the nessesary animates, and a win, but no means to get the dragon to the grave. Enter Ancestral Recall. With the draw 3 I can leave my hand at 8, end my turn, and discard the dragon. Next turn I put down more mana (mox or land) and animate for my win! The Recall is so essential in the opening hand of any deck, as noted in above posts, but I especially like it for its discard possibilities!

[Dante]

Again, try reading the rules please and not bumping old threads with incorrect points. 

If you did what you said in your example - turn 1 Ancestral, discard Dragon, turn 2 Animate, you would have no way of actually getting your kill condition in your graveyard since you don't have Bazaar/Compulsion or any other way to stop the loop to hardcast it either. Hopefully you realize this before you mana burn so you don't turn your turn 2 draw into a turn 2 loss  - Dante