[Deck] Chargecounter

[brianpk80]

This is a deck I have been testing over the past 2 weeks on MWS.
Its components are hybrid between the many famous Welder-abusing decks and Fish,
but its play style is intended to be responsive and control-oriented.
Several of the cards in it seem unorthodox at first but the deck turns out
surprisingly good results.  It's strongest match-ups are against classic Gifts,
Uba Stax, and 5 Color Stax.  I would approximate that it's 66%/33% with
Gifts and 70%/30% with Stax, and 60/40% with Slaver.  It's head to head with Oath,
with the entire match-up usually hinging on whether Ensnaring Bridge either resolves or
is Welded/Tinkered into play.  The deck has been changing frequently since I
started experimenting with it.  Even the latest "refinement" is quite raw.  The
most current version that has given me a lot of success is as follows:

Land (19):
4 Volcanic Island
1 Shivan Reef
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Strip Mine
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy

Artifact Mana (4):
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault

Creatures (15):
4 Goblin Welder
4 Magus of the Unseen
4 Coretapper
3 Gorilla Shaman

Instants/Sorceries (5):
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tinker
1 Intuition
2 Brainstorm

Artifacts (17):
4 Chalice of the Void
3 AEther Vial
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Null Brooch
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard:
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Null Brooch
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Pithing Needle
2 Old Man of the Sea
2 Viashino Heretic

This is a reactive rather than pro-active deck. 
The deck functions through a combination of disruption and control,
with a small hint of aggression.  Control and Combo-based decks are held in check
with Wasteland, Gorilla Shaman, and Chalice of the Void, which, through Welders and
Coretappers, are easily manipulable.  This strength may seem trivial at first, but in practice,
it's difficult to understate the profound disadvantage most popular Tier 1 decks experience
vis-a-vis an early Chalice 2 or Chalice 3.  Aggressive decks are held back with the Jitte
and Ensnaring Bridges.  It bears noting that the Coretapper can add charge counters
to the Jitte without it being equipped to a creature and I find this to be the primary
method of charging it.  Meanwhile, Welder-based decks are easy prey for this deck's
own Welders, Gorillas, Jittes, and Magus of the Unseen.  What this deck has going for
it is synergy, versatility, and a multiplicity of threats.  Almost all of of the main
cards in this deck singlehandedly swing the game in its favor.   

Card choices

Mana sources: After testing through well over 60 matches, I find 19 land and
the four artifacts to be the optimal mix.  I also consider AEther Vials and Brainstorms
to be quasi-mana sources because the former duplicates their function of allowing me
to put creatures into play and the latter helps to ensure that the right kind of mana
is available.  Because of the importance of having reusable mana sources and artifacts
in play, I have opted against using Black Lotus.  I am open to testing it again, but
I am finding that having 3 disposable and non-renewable mana doesn't justify both
the card disadvantage and the sacrifice of another land/mana slot in the deck. 
Off-color Moxen are similarly unwelcome.  The Mishra's Factory in here can be thought
of as the counterpart to Control Slaver's Seat of the Synod.  If it shows up with the
Crucible/Welder, then there's infinite artifact recursion.  If not, then there's a viable
uncounterable blocker or creature to equip. 

Goblin Welder/Gorilla Shaman: need no elaboration.

Magus of the Unseen:  For those not familiar, "Cost:  ,  Summon Wizard,  1/1, [Ice Age],
: Untap target artifact an opponent controls and gain control of it until end
of turn. If it's an artifact creature, it gains haste until end of turn. When you lose
control of the artifact, tap it."  Right now, this is an incredible T1 meta-card.  It not
only singlehandedly neutralizes the Darksteel Colossus, but it also turns it against its
master, usually for the kill.  The fact that Magus can be played via AEther Vial at the
end of the turn that the unsuspecting Gifts/TPS player plays Tinker makes it all the more
fierce.  And its effect on Stax, Slaver, Workshop-Aggro, and other Welder-based decks
(including Cerebral Assassin) is even more horrific.  The hallmark Crucible/Smokestack
scheme falls apart when you are able to "borrow" their Crucible every turn and, as
often is the case, destroy it by Welding it into whatever you sacrificed to the
Smokestack that upkeep.  She also neutralizes an opponent's Welder with the ability to
seize the in-play target at instant speed.  And good as Magus is on her own, in
conjunction with the Welder, she yields a game-breaking card advantage.  "Borrowing"
an opponent's Sol Ring and Welding it into the Chalice they countered last turn changes
the playing field dramatically.  "Borrowing" an AEther Vial, Black Lotus, Mana Vault, Su-Chi,
Mishra's Factory, Metalworker, Time Vault, Sensei's Divining Top, or another popularly
played artifact, even without a Welder in play, tends to net very favorable results.  This is
an extremely powerful creature that has been overlooked in all formats since it was released
in 1995, and the current metagame maximizes its effect.

Coretapper:  For those not familiar, "Cost: , Artifact Creature,  1/1, [Darksteel], : Put
a charge counter on target artifact. Sacrifice Coretapper: Put two charge counters on target
artifact."  This is the backbone card of the deck and yet the only main card that does not
have a significant effect on the playing field on its own.  Rather, it combines with most
other cards in the deck to procure remarkable and effective results.  The two most obvious
combinations are with Chalice of the Void and Umezawa's Jitte.  The Coretapper allows me
to lay down a Chalice as soon as I draw it for 0 (assuming the grandiose mana requirements
for heavier Chalices is unavailable in the early game) and later "tap" it up to Chalice 1, Chalice
2, Chalice 3, as needed.  This is also especially helpful in converting a Tinkered or Welded
Chalice, because they are automatically set at 0.  The synergy with AEther Vial should be
apparent here as well.  AEther Vial can both put the Coretapper into play and allow me
to manipulate the Chalices without the threat of locking out my own 1 or 2 casting cost
creatures.  But the bond between Coretapper and Umezawa's Jitte is even more effective.
To use the Jitte without ever having to pay for Equipping it or attacking with an Equipped
creature (and often losing the creature in the process) provides a daunting speed advantage.
That the Coretapper can be sacrificed as needed (and then Welded back for more counters
on either a Chalice, the Jitte, Engineered Explosives, or, in an emergency, an AEther Vial)
gives the deck a flexibility and potent edge in dealing with dangerous small creatures or direct
damage/loss of life (from the Jitte's life gain).     

Ancestral Recall: Needs no elaboration.

Brainstorm: 2 included primarily to smooth out the mana supply in the early game.

Tinker: To be used as needed.  Most common targets are Null Brooch, Umezawa's Jitte, and
Ensnaring Bridge.

Intuition:  Temporarily included in the slot originally dedicated to a second Crucible of Worlds.
However, since Intuition costs the same, can retrieve a Crucible (or at least put it into the
graveyard for the Welders), is more flexible and an instant, I am keeping it for the time being. 

Chalice of the Void/AEther Vial/Umezawa's Jitte:  Their uses are long known.

Ensnaring Bridge:  An absolutely essential Band-AID for this deck's critical weaknesses: swarm
decks and large flying creatures (Oath or non-Oath).  Of the non-Gifts/Stax/Belcher matches
that I've played, this is been the determinative card in 80% of the games.  Barring horrible
mana-screw or a first turn Library of Alexandria, my hand should be empty or near empty on
the third/fourth turn.  Once in play, Welders, Chalice of the Void, and Null Brooch help keep this
"artifact super-Moat" around as necessary to lock down an aggressive opponent.   

Null Brooch:  For those not familiar, "Cost: , Artifact, [Exodus], Discard your hand:
Counter target noncreature spell." This is a deck where, because almost all cards are permanents,
and most are Weldable, losing my hand is not much of a sacrifice.  In some cases, it's a benefit.
That given, Null Brooch functions in this deck as an Isochron Scepter with a built-in Counterspell
and allows the deck to stop an opponent's disruption or win conditions.

Engineered Explosives:  I take this in and out of the deck frequently.  It's a good solution for
an early game gone wrong and in the late game its counters can be adjusted as necessary to
deal with threats. 

Sideboard:  The sideboard is somewhat rough, but essentially, the Crypts are there for Dragon,
the Needles for Belcher, the Explosives are there for Oath, and the others are as needed.

In sum, against all odds, this deck has had a hopeful showing against most of what's
currently out there.  It began as an experiment with charge counters (IE going infinite on
a Magistrate's Scepter more easily than I'd ever imagined but I've since retired the card) and
formerly made greater use of the AEther Vial (vialling out Platinum Angel and the like rather quickly).   
I'm open to any suggestions and welcome any feedback, critique, tuning, or questions.  I'm also
open to ideas for naming the deck.  For the time being, I just took the names of two of its
strongest cards and "welded" them together.  Thanks for reading.

[Gabethebabe]

I´m sorry but I think you will need to go back to the drawing board.

Your deck has no clock, no countermagic, no broken plays, no draw engine, i.e. it is not viable.

Also, I believe nothing of those percentages.

[pyr0ma5ta]

Remind me, what's your out against Darkblast?

[Gabethebabe]

Remind me, what's your out against Darkblast?

Prepare to start kicking yourself:
Chalice =1

[brianpk80]

Remind me, what's your out against Darkblast?

Chalice 1.
Null Brooch.
Waste the Underground.
Gorilla the Jet.
Equip target with Jitte.
Ignore it because the target (Gorilla, Magus, etc.) has already served its purpose or there
are several in play.

Darkblast is annoying, but doesn't end the game.
My larger concerns are Null Rod, Damping Matrix, and Rebuild.
Thanks for writing. 

[brianpk80]

I´m sorry but I think you will need to go back to the drawing board.

Your deck has no clock, no countermagic, no broken plays, no draw engine, i.e. it is not viable.

Also, I believe nothing of those percentages.

Contrary to some firmly entrenched understandings of many T1 players, there are alternate
winning strategies to broken plays and second turn kills.  For background, I am a former player
of "The Deck," in the 1990's, which has none of the above aside from countermagic and an
abysmal (by today's standards) draw engine.  I've retained that control approach to the game and
have adapted it in today's post-Mirrodin environment.  The decklist itself may appear uncanny at
first glance but coupled with the control style (and a deep knowledge of what's out there is
also essential; this is a deck that truly abuses Chalice of the Void), it has yielded good results. 

If you look more closely at the card list and consider how prepared the deck is for today's
metagame, you might begin to understand why it performs well against Stax and Gifts. 
This deck is reactive and contains an overwhelming amount of responses to each of
those decks' victory conditions. 

Thanks for writing. 

[Imsomniac101]

I´m sorry but I think you will need to go back to the drawing board.

Your deck has no clock, no countermagic, no broken plays, no draw engine, i.e. it is not viable.

Also, I believe nothing of those percentages.

I have personally seen this deck in action; and let me tell you that it is amazing. At first glance the deck looks like a pile, but when Magus + Welder starts kicking your ass, you become a believer. You might think that the deck is under the aggro-control archetype but it plays more like Stax. Your goal is basically to lock your opponent out of the game. (Note cards like Ensnaring Bridge and Chalice). The deck ramps up mana surprisingly quickly.

Magus is honestly the MVP here. Everything from stealing Moxes, Null Rods to Colossi.

The deck is still really rough ( I believe I said this to you when playing against you with Gifts and 5cStax on MWS). But the idea is extremely potent.

P.S. I made several mistakes when playing Gifts so I'm still on the fence about that matchup. But I definitely believe/seen the other numbers

[Eddie]

Where you playing against yourself when testing the deck? If so, you might be prone to the same thing as I am. I always tend to push the deck I'm testing harder than the deck I'm playing against. Probably because in my subconscious I want the deck to win. It's very dangerous to put up play % if you've played your deck against yourself.

Other than that, there are some interesting concepts here. There is still room for improvement I think, but I should give it a try in MWS before commenting any further.

[Sgt. Pepper]

You said you don't play Black Lotus because you don't need/like the 1 time mana boost it gives, that you would rather have a permanent mana source. Why then, did you chose to include Mana Vault, a 1 time mana boost, instead of a off color mox or Mana Crypt?

Why only 3 AEther Vial? You want to drop a Vial on the first turn, not somewhere midgame. Running only 3 will obviously decrease the chances you see a Vial in your opening grip.

Why, of all cards, play a Library of Alexandria? This deck has absolutely no draw engine besides Ancestral Recall so it will be impossible to maintain a 7 card hand after the first turn. Even if you drop a LoA first turn you will delay any Chalice or Vials in your hand if you plan on activating it next turn. Besides, you need to play you cards. Gifts can just wait a couple of turns, perhaps countering a spell here or there, using LoA to set up a broken turn/play that will win the game. You on the other hand have no broken plays, draw or any counter magic and therefore can't use LoA even if dropped first turn. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You posted some incredible Gifts/Slaver/Stax matchup percentages. What are those percentages against a deck like U/W fish, Meandeck Wins, RDW, Oath, Goblins, or any combo matchup?

[Gabethebabe]

I have personally seen this deck in action; and let me tell you that it is amazing. At first glance the deck looks like a pile, but when Magus + Welder starts kicking your ass, you become a believer.

Well, you may be a believer, but I maintain my statement that this deck is shit. I counter welders, because these are the decks biggest threat (and not even that big), find my Rebuild and make sure Magus/Bridge is nowhere to be seen when I Tinker for Colossus. Or I Rebuild eot to force you to use your Null brooch (if it has entered play and I haven´t won yet of the 4 free mana you just gave me) and in my own turn a Will will just rape you.

Any storm deck will laugh at your disruption.

Oath will counter your Bridges and some legend will start beating your face.

This deck ramps op mana? How? To do what? Walk into a drain?

[Harlequin]

I agree that the deck needs some ... helping.  So rather than just tell you what it doesn't have.  I'll give you some cards to take a peak at that I think would improve your deck.

Lets take the core part of the deck.  You want to abuse coretapper, and ensnareing bridge, for a "left field" type of deck that will have some degree of shock value.

#1 for the love of cupcakes get some shops in there.  Theres no real reason (other than budget) to not run shop.  If your against off color moxen then you'll have some free proxy slots to roll some workshops.

Ok now, you need a control answer. Some cards to consider:
Defense grid - protection
Uba mask - hand denial (plays well with bridge)

Now we need some accelleration:
Grafted skullcap
Bottled cloister
both cards have amazing synergy with ensnareing bridge, and multiple copies of either of these cards stack with the rest.  I could go either way on this, Bottled cloister alows for longterm advantage, but if the cloister is killed, your hand gets RFGed wich for a welding deck is no fun.  Grafted is more of an savage digging card, anything you cant use this turn, gets dumpped in the yard.  Both cards give you the advantage of attacking with the little guys durring your turn, and your opponent can only attack with spinal parasite with no +1/+1's left and holy armor equiped.

Now we need a clock.  Or several clocks...
Jitte - Boo... go with 1 at most.  It's neat because you can slip him over (or under) the bridgethen pump the crap outa him thanks to core tappers... but there are better wins.  this win is too many combo pieces for ultimately not enough "win now" factor.  If you want a two card combo go with staff of domination/metalworker and do some "win nowing"
Standard type win:
+1(at least) sundering titan
+1(at least) duplicant
This way you abuse your welders ability and make your opponent want to gouge his eyes out, then after you have cleared the board of every perminant they have you weld out your bridge and swing a few times.  If anything goes wronge with that plan you weld back in your bridge and keep smashing stuff with titan/dupe tag team.

Left Field win:
When mirrodin block came out I too thought core tapper was something worth investigating.  Not only could you ramp your own chargeing perminants up, you could disrupt your opponents charge abilites as well.  "I'll tap vial (two counters on it)" "in response, I'll sac core tapper and make it have 4 counters" ... "ok, i choose no creature."
core tappers had potential.  Here is the combo that I came up with.  (and its not really combo so much as synergy).
Dark Steal Reactor + Core Tappers + Dismantle.
Because of the Reactors indestrutableness, you can "dismantle" it, and effectively double the number of counters on it.  So You use the tappers + the reactors natural counter per turn to get to like 7 or so.  Then your opponet thinks they have about 4 more turns then boom -> tap core taper, sac him, bring the reactor to 10 and dismantle it for the win.
This to me seems vastly easier than attempting to create a lethal jite through the same methods.
Ultimately I deamed this type of deck unplayable in t1, because why play coretapper+reactor+dismantle ... when there is always Staff/metalworker.  But good luck to you, there are my honest suggestions, take'm or leave'm

[Mantis]

@Gabe, why Tinker for Colossus? If this deck wants to kill Colossus that bad, fine! Keep your counters to protect your Tendrills/FlameVault or a Trike and you win.

This deck probably has a good matchup versus Stax and maybe Fish. But Oath, Combo and Control are gonna kick you in the nuts.

[Kowal]

More than ample room for improvement, so I moved this in to the Vintage Improvement Forum.[/color]

[Harlequin]

@Kowal - Agreed.

Another thought I had is thta Null Brooch has fantastic synergy with Bottled cloister and/or graphted skullcap and Defense grid.  I think if you had some combination of those cards you might have a fighting chance against control.
Something in the range of...
4 bottle cloister
2-3 bridge
2-3 brooch
1-2 grids

[klu]

Since i have not played the deck, i'll be short.
The few questions I'm asking :
-How do you get artifact cards to weld in your graveyard? I see no bob (that may be good in the deck)?
-How do you expect a combo match up with only 4 chalice for disruption?
-2 brainstorm, 0 thirst, 1 intuition (as a tutor).. how can the deck be redondant? since all the cards are synergic but they are all bad on their own. Okay, you may roxx tinker's kill of gift.deck. What about its tendrils ? (even chalice lets him storm..)
-What is your kill ? some 1/1 ? what do you do against the clock?

I really don't like MWS random testing. too many bad players in there.

[Hydra]

I know that certain people were working on a "Vial Stax" build pre-Waterbury, and I had even recieved a copy of the list, but I'll leave it to those people to address the deck if they so choose.

Coretapper, even in a deck designed to use the counters, seems so suboptimal to me.  Why would you want something so situational over an actual threat?  If one were to go with a five color mana base + Vial you could try something like Meddling Mage, offering you an extra "lock" card instead of cute tricks. 

I pretty have all the same questions as Klu.  The deck really does nothing to invalidate Tendrils as a win condition, and not being able to address Tendrils is a major problem for any lock deck in the format.

Also, anyone else think that the decks that pack Night of Souls' Betrayal in the board to try to hate out Oath/small men would LOVE to play against this deck all day long?

[Harlequin]

You tell us that a strength of your deck is the ability to manipulate counters on artifacts with coretapper, and especially Chalice

The Coretapper allows me
to lay down a Chalice as soon as I draw it for 0 (...) and later "tap" it up to Chalice 1, Chalice
2, Chalice 3, as needed

...

It does alow you to pre-emptivly adjust your chalices.  For example, if you drop a chalice for 0 then a core tapper.  And your playing against say control.  As soon as they have UU open, you probably want to set your chalice to 2 before you play any of your 4 mana cost guys... this way your pre-emptively guarding yourself agianst a mana drain.
This clearly will not work if the drain is on the stack, but it works if you "plan" for the drain.

[Toad]

This deck is reactive and contains an overwhelming amount of responses to each of those decks' victory conditions.

Then what is your overwhelming amout of response to Gifts standard win condition against Aggroish decks such as this one, aka. Tendrils of Agony? Chalice of the Void and Gorilla Shaman don't prevent Moxen from being played.

[Draven]

Because of the importance of having reusable mana sources and artifacts
in play, I have opted against using Black Lotus.  I am open to testing it again, but
I am finding that having 3 disposable and non-renewable mana doesn't justify both
the card disadvantage and the sacrifice of another land/mana slot in the deck. 

1 CC:
4 Goblin Welder
3 Gorilla Shaman
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Brainstorm
3 AEther Vial

2 CC:
4 Magus of the Unseen
4 Coretapper
3 Umezawa's Jitte


3 CC:
1 Tinker
1 Intuition
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds

4 CC
2 Null Brooch

Varing CC
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives

The point: All these cards needs to be cast, so having a Black Lotus in your opeing hand isn't bad. I don't want to be a person that says "Your deck suxors becasue there is no Lotus, however, I can not see a reason for any deck to not have a Lotus (except for budget concerns, but that doesn't seem to be an issue, you chose not to have a Lotus.)

The deck isn't bad, just rough.

[Kowal]

This deck is reactive and contains an overwhelming amount of responses to each of those decks' victory conditions.

Then what is your overwhelming amout of response to Gifts standard win condition against Aggroish decks such as this one, aka. Tendrils of Agony? Chalice of the Void and Gorilla Shaman don't prevent Moxen from being played.

It also has no actual answers to Flame-Vault or even Belcher/Severance.

It's already a bad sign when your opponent getting their combo means you lose and when you get your combo it means your opponent has to remove something to win.  You're fighting for your shot to win the game, and you'll only get that shot about 50% of the time.  When you do, you will still lose a lot (I would say most, given you lack any other pressure) because people tend to run solutions to things like Chalice of the Void in their maindecks.

Given that your prevention combo doesn't even stop the secondary win conditions of most decks, you're putting yourself in really bad shape pre-emptively.

[Gabethebabe]

If you really want to stick to this deck idea: please consider the following changes:

-2 Null Brooch
This card is just plain BAD. Giving up your hand to counter a spell is just bad. The card has "Drain me" imprinted on it. It can easily be played around (eot removal spell, next turn spell that kills you). It can be stifled, it can be Pithing Needled.

-1 Intuition
What does this card do? It is only mildly effective when you have Welder on the table. It is just an overcosted tutor in this deck. I would prefer Brainstorm over it any time of the day.

[Imsomniac101]

I have personally seen this deck in action; and let me tell you that it is amazing. At first glance the deck looks like a pile, but when Magus + Welder starts kicking your ass, you become a believer.

Well, you may be a believer, but I maintain my statement that this deck is shit.

This is a blatant use of dirty language. And I would consider it a flame as well. Klep, if you're reading, where the f*** are you? What about use of perogative language to describe decks and cards!!!???

I counter welders, because these are the decks biggest threat (and not even that big), find my Rebuild and make sure Magus/Bridge is nowhere to be seen when I Tinker for Colossus.

Hey Genius. Magus is not an artifact. Tinkering for anything when it is out is suicide.

Or I Rebuild eot to force you to use your Null brooch (if it has entered play and I haven´t won yet of the 4 free mana you just gave me) and in my own turn a Will will just rape you.

You're talking about the late game when Chalice WILL BE OUT. Play the deck before you talk shit about it.

Oath will counter your Bridges and some legend will start beating your face.

So Oath has counters for both my Welders and my Bridges? That hardly happens at all. The best I've seen is Duress + Force.

This deck ramps op mana? How? To do what? Walk into a drain?

Sorry, I forgot to say "even when facing wastes).

[bebe]

I really am beginning to like you alot Klu. I have the same questions and you really they have not addressed them. The deck lacks redundancy and draw.
Before this thread turns ugly lets akll take a deep breath. Now I'm all for innovation but I fail to see how in the world you will stop a number of combo decks. Yes, I know you have chalices. I've fought through chalices a number of times and most decks are prepared fopr them.
Null Brooch - the only time I've sen this card lead to anything but card disadvantage was iun a casual Oath of Mages deck ( mine actually)
Its hard to take your deck seriously when this is your counter.
Coretapper - we get it. That still does not make this card a threat whern you can lock down an opponent so much easier with one card rather than combinations of cards.
Ensnaring Bridge - this is about the worst alternative I can think of Collosus and it does nothing against any other deck. Even a Maze of Ith is better.  You already have solutions for large creatures ands a deck like u-w fish will eat you alive.

BTW, no one is trying to give you a hard time. You posted a list for critique and admittedly some members can be a little harsh but you have yet to convince us that its worthwhile to continue to discuss this deck. 

[brianpk80]

The deck is still really rough ( I believe I said this to you when playing against you with Gifts and 5cStax on MWS). But the idea is extremely potent.
 
P.S. I made several mistakes when playing Gifts so I'm still on the fence about that matchup. But I definitely believe/seen the other numbers
 

You're right; that matcup was a fluke and we both made some serious mistakes.  
I am not including it in my analysis.
 
But in general, I do well against classic Gifts because the Tinker route is almost a non-option and
the Tendrils kill is made more difficult by the Chalice, Null Brooch, and all of the mana disruption
involved.  Playskill is also an issue.  Gifts and TPS are very similar and math-heavy decks, and
its players tend to make grievous miscalculations very frequently.  
(I don't mean you; I mean, for instance, this one guy the other day who lost the game because he
went off without realizing he wouldn't be able to cast Tendrils because I destroyed his Mox Jet).  
 
However, Flame-Vault Gifts is more of a problem for my deck.  I'm not sure that
has much to do with my own deck; rather I think Flame-Vault is just an empirically better
and less vulnerable version of Gifts.  
 
Thanks for chiming in,  
 
-Brian (Wizard/BPK)

[brianpk80]

I have personally seen this deck in action; and let me tell you that it is amazing. At first glance the deck looks like a pile, but when Magus + Welder starts kicking your ass, you become a believer.

Well, you may be a believer, but I maintain my statement that this deck is shit. I counter welders, because these are the decks biggest threat (and not even that big), find my Rebuild and make sure Magus/Bridge is nowhere to be seen when I Tinker for Colossus. Or I Rebuild eot to force you to use your Null brooch (if it has entered play and I haven´t won yet of the 4 free mana you just gave me) and in my own turn a Will will just rape you.

Any storm deck will laugh at your disruption.

Oath will counter your Bridges and some legend will start beating your face.

This deck ramps op mana? How? To do what? Walk into a drain?

Admittedly, the version of the deck I posted is rough and needs a lot of work.
But there's a lot there already that disrupts storm more than you seem to realize.
As easy as you seem to think it is for a Storm deck to go off as they choose, the
Rebuild plan isn't so easy when there's a Chalice 3 on the board on the third turn.
Then, when they inevitably counter the Null Brooch, more often than not, the
Welder brings it right back. 

And in case you haven't noticed, v. Oath, having a Bridge get countered isn't
the apocalypse you think it is when you're running 4 Welders.  You seem to assume
that every other deck will be performing optimally and having their best possible draws.
Of course I would lose to "Sapphire, Orchard, Oath, Lotus, 2 counters in hand."
Who wouldn't?  But that's rarely the case.  In Magic, for any deck, things go
horribly awry all the time.  In fact, the last Oath match-up I had, I won with a
Spirit token equipped by a Jitte w. a Coretapper in play.

-Brian

[brianpk80]

I really am beginning to like you alot Klu. I have the same questions and you really they have not addressed them. The deck lacks redundancy and draw.
Before this thread turns ugly lets akll take a deep breath. Now I'm all for innovation but I fail to see how in the world you will stop a number of combo decks. Yes, I know you have chalices. I've fought through chalices a number of times and most decks are prepared fopr them.
Null Brooch - the only time I've sen this card lead to anything but card disadvantage was iun a casual Oath of Mages deck ( mine actually)
Its hard to take your deck seriously when this is your counter.
Coretapper - we get it. That still does not make this card a threat whern you can lock down an opponent so much easier with one card rather than combinations of cards.
Ensnaring Bridge - this is about the worst alternative I can think of Collosus and it does nothing against any other deck. Even a Maze of Ith is better.  You already have solutions for large creatures ands a deck like u-w fish will eat you alive.

BTW, no one is trying to give you a hard time. You posted a list for critique and admittedly some members can be a little harsh but you have yet to convince us that its worthwhile to continue to discuss this deck. 

Thanks for writing.
I'm in a rush to get out the door right now, but I wanted to add that Ensnaring Bridge isn't included
as a response to Darksteel Colossus.  Ensnaring Bridge is the most potent card in the deck vs. UW Fish,
Goblins, Black-Aggro, "Elves!," Workshop-Aggro, and just about any deck whose victory condition
rests on combat damage. 

[Kowal]

Consider this more of a helpful nudge than anything else.  Gabe, you know that this thread is in the improvement forum for a reason.  Insomniac, you're being obnoxious and rude.  Any further degeneracy will result in warnings.[/color]

[Moxlotus]

You're talking about the late game when Chalice WILL BE OUT. Play the deck before you talk shit about it.

I didn't know Tendrils kills were stopped by a chalice that may or may not have been countered.  Even if Welded in, I didn't know Will was stopped by Chalice for 0.  Wait-it isn't.  Decks are prepared for Chalice and can deal with them if they don't have a clock to work against.  You have no clock.

Gifts and TPS are very similar and math-heavy decks, and
its players tend to make grievous miscalculations very frequently

Please don't tell me your strategy against storm involves your opponents misplaying. 

And in case you haven't noticed, v. Oath, having a Bridge get countered isn't
the apocalypse you think it is when you're running 4 Welders.  You seem to assume
that every other deck will be performing optimally and having their best possible draws.
Of course I would lose to "Sapphire, Orchard, Oath, Lotus, 2 counters in hand."
Who wouldn't?  But that's rarely the case.  In Magic, for any deck, things go
horribly awry all the time.  In fact, the last Oath match-up I had, I won with a
Spirit token equipped by a Jitte w. a Coretapper in play.
 

No, but Oath consistantly has a green enchantment down on turn 2 or 3.  Things can go awry-I lost a game with Oath to zombies.  That doesn't mean it isn't very rare because most of the time it won't happen.  Oath has 4 Duress+4 Fow+4 Leak.  You have 4 Welder+a few Bridges.  Even if you get a bridge out, there is no clock so Oath can find its Rushing River at leisure.

The deck has nothing against Tendrils or a Flamevault kill.  It also looks rough against Control Slaver.  I have no idea how this can compete against Belcher or Dragin.

BTW-nobody gives a shit about who you were and what decks you played and for how long.  I know a few people who started playing in 94 and they still suck.  The Deck is completely outdated and many of its strategies are now completely unoptimal.  All in all, lose the attitude.

[brianpk80]

If you really want to stick to this deck idea: please consider the following changes:

-2 Null Brooch
This card is just plain BAD. Giving up your hand to counter a spell is just bad. The card has "Drain me" imprinted on it. It can easily be played around (eot removal spell, next turn spell that kills you). It can be stifled, it can be Pithing Needled.

-1 Intuition
What does this card do? It is only mildly effective when you have Welder on the table. It is just an overcosted tutor in this deck. I would prefer Brainstorm over it any time of the day.

These are good suggestions.
I have dropped Intuition and the Null Brooches for now.
This deck originated as a Workshop-powered speciman and without the Workshops
and Crucibles, Intuition has lost its utility and Null Brooch has lost its speed edge. 

I will be posting an updated version shortly.

[brianpk80]

You said you don't play Black Lotus because you don't need/like the 1 time mana boost it gives, that you would rather have a permanent mana source. Why then, did you chose to include Mana Vault, a 1 time mana boost, instead of a off color mox or Mana Crypt?

Why only 3 AEther Vial? You want to drop a Vial on the first turn, not somewhere midgame. Running only 3 will obviously decrease the chances you see a Vial in your opening grip.

Why, of all cards, play a Library of Alexandria? This deck has absolutely no draw engine besides Ancestral Recall so it will be impossible to maintain a 7 card hand after the first turn. Even if you drop a LoA first turn you will delay any Chalice or Vials in your hand if you plan on activating it next turn. Besides, you need to play you cards. Gifts can just wait a couple of turns, perhaps countering a spell here or there, using LoA to set up a broken turn/play that will win the game. You on the other hand have no broken plays, draw or any counter magic and therefore can't use LoA even if dropped first turn. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You posted some incredible Gifts/Slaver/Stax matchup percentages. What are those percentages against a deck like U/W fish, Meandeck Wins, RDW, Oath, Goblins, or any combo matchup?

The reason I included Mana Vault over Black Lotus was because the Vault stays on the table for
re-Welding.  I'm running both now currently, having added White to the deck for combo control.

You raise good points about the LoA.  I'm on the fence as to keeping it. 

U/W Fish is currently my worst match-up.  The maindeck Null Rod is brutal in game 1 and I usually
end up siding the Coretappers out in favor of Pithing Needles and Heretics.  I have not had much
opportunity to play Oath: maybe 4-5 matches.  I won most, but I attribute that to luck.  My strength
against Oath is the Ensnaring Bridge coupled w. Welders, and occasionally an early Jitte on a Spirit
token with a few other weeines in play has given me a Fish-like victory, even though Akroma was
on the table.  Post-sb, Engineered Explosives is extremely effective against that deck.  And while
Oath runs counters, no deck is in a position to counter the Welder or Vial on turn 1, counter the EE on turn
2, counter the Bridge on turn 3 and still have the mana/cards available to execute its combo,
especially amidst Wastelands, Chalices, and Gorillas.  And unless they Duress on turn 1, that spell
is usually moot since by turn 3 or 4, my hand consists of 2-3 land/creatures.  And with the Coretapper,
I'm in a position to throw out the Chalice on turn 1 for 0 (slowing them down) or an EE 0 along with
some 1 CC threat, and then making the Coretapper an absolute must-counter.  If they counter
the Chalice, and an AEther Vial gets through, then the Welder comes out at Vial 1, the Coretapper
at Vial 2, and then the Vial is welded back into the Chalice and the Coretapper is sacrificed
immediately to make it Chalice 2, which is usually game-over for Oath (even if they run Chain
of Vapor, they won't be Impulsing for it, or Draining/Leaking anything and pretty much powerless
to deal with the Gorillas, Jittes, and Bridges or Chalice 1's that show up).  This assumes a relatively
strong hand on my part, but there are 4 of each of those cards (but 3 Vials) so similar openings
are rather common and it gives some idea of the type of flexibility the deck gives.

Goblins are a toss-up at this point.  An early Jitte/Coretapper swings it heavily in my favor both because of
its lifegain and creature control.  FWIW, when the Welder is thrown in, there are 5 Jitte counters at my
disposal as needed because the Coretapper can tap to add a counter, Sacrifice for 2 more, then be welded
back into play for 2 more in an emergency.  The Bridge is again the critical card here. 
Goblins with maindeck Null Rod is a nightmare (as they likewise are for most Tier 1 decks).

I am trying a newer version of this deck with more combo disruption and less land destruction.
I will post it shortly.

Thanks for the feedback,

-Brian