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Author Topic: Shahravoid  (Read 4262 times)
BruiZar
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« on: February 16, 2006, 09:52:21 am »

Here's my Shahrazad deck which I will play.
Since TMD people always criticize before testing themselves I will not give a deck explanation yet.

with pride, I present to you: My pile!

[Land]
4 Scrubland
1 Godless Shrine
1 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
3 Polluted Delta

[Mana Artifacts]
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus

[Disrupt]
4 Duress
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Castigate/Randomslots/hymn to tourach
1 Crucible of Worlds

4 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Shahrazad
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Dark Ritual

[Tutor/Broken]
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Balance
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Necropotence
1 Mind Twist
1 Hurkyll's Recall
[Kill]
1 Laquatus's Champion [ open for suggestions ?]


Cards I wanted to put in but couldn't find space for :

Time Twister
Vindicate
Null Rod

I'm going to let you look at the list yourself and think about this one for a while. I'll post more info on it tomorrow
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Nantuko Rice
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« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2006, 10:24:02 am »

"Since TMD people always criticize before testing themselves I will not give a deck explanation yet."

Exact reason why I never post any of my decklists until I put up some good tournament results.

As far as your deck, I'm glad someone is breaking the new black leyline. I actually want to abuse it too, but I never thought with Sharhazad. There was actually talk about Sharhazad recently but in conjunction with Tormod's Crypt. Playing with Leyline of the Void is definately a better idea though.

I can't figure out your kill though. What if you threw in 4 negators?
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Pselus
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« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2006, 10:32:42 am »

I think his kill is to get them enough removed from game cards that they deck themselves in the main game.   Seems interesting that's for sure.

I'm sure this is going to sound like a horrible idea...but: Serum Powder?  I mean, you REALLY want to find a Leyline in the subgame...

that said, I went to a site to find errata on the card Shahrazad...and I kid you not, in all the errata list, this was also listed:
Quote
No, this card is more annoying than you imagine Sad
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BruiZar
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« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2006, 10:48:26 am »

The idea is to either rfg entire hand in the first 1 or 2 turns with illgottengains, or cast a shahrazad asap and aggressively mulligan for a leyline. If your opponent takes up the fight in the 2nd match he loses all his business spells which will make him unable to win the main game. So he has to auto concede the subgame which will cause him to lose 10 life. The kill would be Laquatus' champion for an instant win after 2 shahrazad (dodging oath's critters with lose life) which is awefull.

The win is awefull though, i'll admit that But i havent really found anything better. Negators are fast and scary but i'll have to rely on balance too much (which shouldnt be that hard with so many tutors and illgottengains in the deck, i find myself balancing a few times each game) The problem with negator is that it doesnt have haste, with all the darkblasts around it does seem like a good option though.

I also thought of using extract but i feel its not strong enough for the mainboard, sideboard they will be very good vs gifts.
Wasteland/crucible/leyline is also very strong.

Through testing, castigate is sometimes a bit too expensive and duress is just alot better when leyline is out. On the other hand, you can't always aggressively mull in the main game but the game plan is to extend the game in a subgame asap anyway, then get back broken spells with illgottengains in the maingame to do it again and finish up with something that does 5 damage. (kearveks spite/shrapnel blast?)

I thought of Serum powder myself, but discarded it because of it's crappiness. If you grab a serum powder, but the rest of your hand is good, you still waste a slot. If it cost 2 colorless i would play it, but 3 is too much. It becomes a drain target and I rather play a duress and a shahrazad than a serum powder.

I will have to test the mulligan abillity though. I'm not sure if it removes my one offs too harshly or not.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2006, 11:09:43 am by BruiZar » Logged
PacmanXSA
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« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2006, 11:59:54 am »

Do you actually think you can win 2/3 games in 50 minutes playing with Shahrazad?

I doubt it...

Pac
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« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2006, 12:06:02 pm »

Posting decklists with no discussion is a fairly blatant violation of TMD Rule number 4. Since you've since posted adding some content, I'll leave this thread unlocked for now, but it's being moved to Improvement.  Clean up your grammar and leave the TMD insults behind while you're at it.  Some ideas don't require testing to know they are bad. http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=18027.0[/color]

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« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2006, 12:12:07 pm »

What do you do when people concede the sub-games immediatley? Shahrazad is a flawed strategy.
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BruiZar
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« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2006, 12:26:39 pm »

Maybe you want them to concede?  What is flawed with WW 10 damage and WW 5 damage?
What is flawed with 2BB Mindtwist entire hand + tormods crypt + regrowth + regrowth + regrowth?
void destroys tendrils/gifts/oath/stax
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dicemanx
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« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2006, 12:52:58 pm »


You have no way of dealing damage outside of one card that costs 6 mana, so Shahrazad is pointless. Dealing 10 damage will matter much more in burn or weenie decks, but those ideas have already been explored.
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BruiZar
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« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2006, 02:50:00 pm »

i might add the rack to the deck, it looks very healthy in the build. Its atleast 6 damage for 1 mana after an illgottengains
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« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2006, 03:04:32 pm »

There is no reason to use white in the deck. You can certainly beat ypour opponent without Shaharazad - in fact it can play very similar to a Gains/Tendrils deck with a bit of tweaking ...
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« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2006, 03:06:06 pm »

Your entire gameplan seems to be getting the opponent to concede two subgames and then resolving the champion. So, you're playing a 3-card combo which can be foiled by a stifle or a healing salve. Requiring ten mana to setup.

In fact, let's go a step further. What if someone RFG's your Champion in a subgame? Then your deck will actually deck itself before it can win. So what if the opponent manages to go to 5 life? Your deck, short of a single 6-drop, will be entirely unable to leverage that lifeloss.

Finally, if you're looking for helpful suggestions from TMD, I suggest not insulting the community.
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« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2006, 03:15:34 pm »

That Laquatus Champion should be Tendrils of Agony. With Dark Rituals / Ill-Gotten Gains / Will,  you will sometimes be able to kill your opponent only with Tendrils.  And tendrils make your Sharazad better, if he loose the subgame, you only need a storm count of 5 to kill him, which is realy easy I think!
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« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2006, 05:10:58 pm »

I agree with some of the comments that question the viability of the Shahrazad + Champion kill.  Losing life to the Shahrazad isn't a threat when you have no pressure in the deck to speak of.

However, I really tlike the Leyline + Gains interaction.  It looks like it's worth investigating, but again I think you should retool your kill.
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« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2006, 08:40:31 pm »

how about
-1 balance
-1 hurkyls recall
-1 laquatas champion

+3 negators?


i think they would work out well.....
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kkoie
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« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2006, 04:20:02 pm »

I personally would not want to use L.C. as my kill condition either.  The vers. I've been considering is as follows:

4 Shahrazad
4 T's Crypt

4 Dark Confident
4 Hypnotic Spec.
4 Nantuko Shade

4 Dark Rit.
4 Duress
3 Hymn
1 Demonic tutor
1 Vamp Tutor
1 Balance
4 Sinkhole
2 Vindicate

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
4 Wasteland
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
3 Swamp
1 Stripmine


This is a random pile at the moment that I've still been tweaking.  I haven't even given much thought to a sideboard as of yet.  I've been thinking of trying to fit in 3 Hunted Horrors and 3 Powder Keg's for a more aggresive kill.  That and I'm not sure if it has enough discard.

Using the Leyline is a great idea though and I might try that in place of the Crypts.
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Robert the Swordsman
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« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2006, 06:27:05 pm »

Leylines in general aren't very good for the following reasons:

In order for them to be effective, you absolutely must run four. This means that if you get the first one in your opening hand like you want, three of the cards in your library are now utterly dead.

Drawing a Leyline in the middle of the game is pretty worthless.

If you draw a seven card hand with no Leyline, will you mulligan? What if, in your new six card hand, you don't draw it either? Will you mulligan again and take your chances with five?

If you don't, you now have four utterly dead cards floating around in your deck.

I think Tormod's Crypt is better than Leyline by far.

On a side note, I won't comment on the Shahrazad side of the deck, but the card is pretty lousy in my opinion.
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« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2006, 12:28:28 am »

In regards to Kkoie's list

This seems in all honesty to basically want to be a B/W Pikula Homebrew deck for Legacy.  Why I say this is because the only card you are abusing from the Vintage scene are Black Lotus, Mox Jet/Mox Pearl, Strip Mine, Balance, Demonic Tutor, and Vampiric Tutor.  Now this does not severely hurt the deck because there are replacements that can be found for the tutors and the Lotus, Moxes, and Strip are not permitted to anyone so that equals out the field.  So the only card that you are truly losing is Balance, but think about it.  You are using multiple hand disruption spells which would only make you discard more.  You also are using Sinkholes and Vindicates which only net you losing more permanents and that is not a good thing.  Balance is anti-synergistic with this deck.

Like many have said before me, I hate all leylines.  Sure Leyline of the Void has a really cool ability, but to have be of any good you need in the first few turns and that most likely means you need it in your opening hand and those chances are very remote and late game they are horrible.  The only advantage of it is that it can't be affected by Pithing Needle which is a big plus as Needle is growing in the amount of decks it is in.

What happens when they counter your Shahrazad and then cast balance ridding of all your creatures?  You have lost tempo so now it is almost a walk through a park for the control player because you have to just play Draw-Go until you find a threat and that could take a while.
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« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2006, 08:51:58 pm »

So here's two cents about your deck from a Shahrazad enthusiast.

1) I like the Leyline of the Void idea. I think it's a very good type1 hoser and I myself have tried coupling it with Shahrazad. I think you'll want to have some better top decking facility if you're going to do this though. The trick is to go into a subgame with Leyline of the Void in your opening hand. Brainstorm and to a lesser extent Sensei's Divining Top do this for you. I say Sensei less so because you can top a card from your hand.

2) Shahrazad decks need to do two things well in order to win. They need to make the oppoent lose the subgame and they need to deal damage really fast in the main game. If you can't figure out a good way to win the subgame consistantly then you're deck will not work. Concession through removal from the game has seemed like the best option since the 8th edition rules. Your deck lacks sourly in the damage department. I suggest ditch the land destruction angle and go for some speed damage. You need to set up on turn one, play Shahrazad on turn two and follow up with 10 damage between the rest of turn two and turn three.

It's really hard to make a deck that can both turn Shahrazad into WW 10 damage and take advantage of it. Usually because turning it into WW10 takes up too many card slots. Good luck though.

-mike
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BruiZar
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« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2006, 04:17:32 am »

The shahrazads do not take up much extra time per game. You have complete control over the length of the match because you can forfeit yourself.

Lets say someone has DSC/TINKER and tendrils as a kill.
You go into a subgame, aggresively mulligan into a leyline, drop the leyline and wait. Your opponent can now do 3 things.

1) Do nothing, which means when he will have to discard when he has 8 cards in hand, which will get removed. (aside from wastelands and duresses)
2) Forfeit the game for half his life
3) Take action and use his tinker / DSC kill or his tendrils kill to win the subgame, which means he will have removed his kill from the game rendering it useless in the maingame.

If he decides to do nothing and you see him removing the cards you are waiting him to discard for, you can safely forfeit the game yourself and go in for a tendrils kill. I'm really doubting wether or not I should play extract because it really fits the game plan well. Will test so in the future.

I don't think I need fast beats, I need steady, reliable beats. Either in the shape of tendrils or the rack ( The rack being a 1 mana drop).
Ill-Gotten Gains is probably the strongest card in the deck when a leyline is out.

I am also thinking of adding red but will have to go test this aswell.

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BruiZar
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« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2006, 02:54:04 am »

I have tested tendrils but I lack drawspells for it I'm afraid.

I run out of gas for lethal damage every time so i have changed to the rack now.
Im also thinking of adding extract
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« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2006, 07:31:35 am »

It seems like this deck might be able to beat a control match or two.  But how do you stop an aggro deck or fish deck that generally has 20 cards or so that slowly deal you damage.  Esp a deck running Swords to plow that is at worst a 1 for 1 on your nantuko's as far as RFG is concerned.  It seems like a shop aggro type deck, or a madness, or even FCG or NonFC Gobs would absolutely own you even in the subgame, and If you loose the subgame it just makes beating you that much easier.
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« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2006, 11:58:34 am »

BW is the wrong direction with this deck IMO. Traditional Zad played with Red, quick-yet efficient creatures + a bit of direct damage. I think this idea should be incorporated in this deck, either going 3 color, or maybe dropping black all together. Black creatures are..well...slow, especially Nantuko with that BB cc. You aren't attacking until turn 3 or 4 for the most part...just way too slow.

I mean I understand the whole point of Leyline...but you are throwing away consistency and speed in order to accomplish what Crypt can pretty much do-and better.

Green is another way you could go, heck Green's creatures are even quicker than those of Red: Ghazban Ogre, Jungle Lion, Wild Dogs, etc...and White has Savvy Lions, Isamaru, and Silver Knight (S-knight is better than you may think)..and actually we cant forget about the shadow dudes from Tempest. Green also provides the complimentary utility to white-and with these more efficient and effective colors, you can still pwn a deck with Crypt.
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« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2006, 10:58:50 pm »

BW is the wrong direction with this deck IMO. Traditional Zad played with Red, quick-yet efficient creatures + a bit of direct damage. I think this idea should be incorporated in this deck, either going 3 color, or maybe dropping black all together. Black creatures are..well...slow, especially Nantuko with that BB cc. You aren't attacking until turn 3 or 4 for the most part...just way too slow.

I mean I understand the whole point of Leyline...but you are throwing away consistency and speed in order to accomplish what Crypt can pretty much do-and better.

Green is another way you could go, heck Green's creatures are even quicker than those of Red: Ghazban Ogre, Jungle Lion, Wild Dogs, etc...and White has Savvy Lions, Isamaru, and Silver Knight (S-knight is better than you may think)..and actually we cant forget about the shadow dudes from Tempest. Green also provides the complimentary utility to white-and with these more efficient and effective colors, you can still pwn a deck with Crypt.
All I have to say about this post is this...since when are black creatures slow?

Sure Nantuko Shade is bad early beater, but black has some of the best quick beats in the entire game.  To name a few, Carnophage, Sarcomancy, Phyrexian Negator, and even Raving Oni-Slave can qualify.  Shadow creatures consist of Dauthi Horror, Dauthi Slayer, and Dauthi Marauder.  And it even has life loss in Misery Charm, Ebony Charm, and even Strongarm Tactics is amazing since most decks have -5 creatures in their decks and all of them are important its a almost guaranteed 4 life.  Granted the selection of creatures posted in the previous post are not fast, but that doesn't mean that all black creatures are slow.

Like said before Tendrils of Agony is not good here because this deck lacks the drawing power that is necessary to use it efficiently therefore relying solely on a full graveyard and a Yawgmoth's Will is not beneficiary to you.  Wrath of God also seems like it could be a viable inclusion, it holds off aggro longer and will get cards removed from the game via Leyline of the Void or Tormod's Crypt.
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« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2006, 07:29:26 pm »

Penguin: You are correct, black does have some fast creatures, however umm Sarcomancy and Carnophage probably are not the best ideas for this deck, god-forbid you lose a subgame your own creatures may deal you in. With regards to Negator-I mean its only good if you play Rituals, but since this is a Zad deck I dont feel it should be playing Ritual to begin with. I mean just one reason for not playing Ritual is the creatures that generally compliment it in most decks: Negator, Nantuko Shade, and Hypnotic Specter, all of which are WAY too slow IMO, especially relying on 4:60 cards in the deck to get them out in a timely manner.
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BruiZar
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« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2006, 12:12:56 pm »

I still need to test it a bit more but I am afraid that Shahrazad is not a good enough solution to dodge maingame threats. It suffers from the same problem that brow beat has, its a very good card but you give the initiative to your opponent which ultimately kills the card.

A GW build of weenies could be very fast however, turn one 2 power creature, turn 2 shahrazad, attack, opponent left on 8 life. I will try to create a different build and post it again. Leyline interactoin with ill-Gotten Gains however is VERY strong and usefull. It's so broken its crazy. Automatic topdeck mode for opponent is freaking awesome.

Hell I'd even try dimir machinations to screw his top decks at it.
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BruiZar
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« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2006, 04:40:25 pm »

Here is my new list. Still have to tweak it but I believe its getting better.

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Dark Ritual
4 Dark Confidant
3 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Gravestorm
1 Web of Inertia
1 Contagion
1 Ancestrall Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

1 Balance
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Hurkyll's Recall
1 Regrowth
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Time Vault
1 Tinker
1 Flame Fussilade
1 Darksteel Collosus
1 Time Walk

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus

4 Wasteland
4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
1 Strip Mine
3 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
[1 God's Eye?]

I added gravestorm because it deals with 2 problems and is castable by a ritual.
1: It removes cards when i couldn't start with a leyline
2: It provides cardadvantage

I added Dark Confidant for the same reason, card advantage plus an extra threat. I added Flame Fussilade/Timevault as an additional kil together with tinker/dsc.

I added cabal therapy because it's ability can be played twice against oath and I might add 1 god's eye if I want to hate on oath even more. God's Eye also helps against Stax. karakas Kills oath aswell.

Web of Inertia is there to save the day vs DSC / Oath and especially Fish/FCG
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« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2006, 01:38:19 am »

We read this decklist about three weeks ago and we really liked it. So the past couple of weeks we have been experimenting with it as a u/B combo with a good bit of control in it. At this time it has tendrils leylines and ill gottens it also uses a techy card that has results very similar to Shahrazad as well as killing off random confidants welders and colossii. Guess it yet ? Its pox. Thats right.  I just posted this to say that if you enjoy even the idea of this deck, If our testing pans out, We'll post our results here soon.
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« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2006, 02:32:01 am »

Tormod's Crypt is INFINITLY better then Leyline in this deck. First, like stated, you have to mulligan into one. Second, if you do manage to start the game with one in play, chances are any player worth his keep will just forfeit the 10 or 5 life or whatever it is. The best way to abuse this card, is like your trying to do, remove there cards from the game. However, if they KNOW its coming, they will just forfeit. This does a few things, allows you to keep a hand without tormod's crypt and draw into it or tutor for it. Or, wait a few turns till you can nab cards from there hand and crpyt them out. Either way, in any tourny worth going to, people will know what your doing before the T8 ( if you make it ). Which means, your stratagy is flawed.

Also like stated, Just run W/R, Fast beats, burn, end the game quickly. If they try to fight you in subgame, cudos to them, they just lost there graveyard.
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