New thread, new decklist U/r unpowered Fish

[The Chosen One]

Since the other thread was locked and I had not made changes to my maindeck prior to this post. I would like to open more discussion on my newest revision of my Fish deck... This time I really focused on the mana denial theme and overall I think the deck has improved... I have a few things that may get changed around, like the possible addition of goblin vandals or hearth kami. Also considering running a genju of the spire or two but without further ado:

Mana base(23)
4 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted delta
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Island
1 Mountain

Creatures(17)
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Dwarven blastminer
2 Gorilla Shaman
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
2 Waterfront bouncer
4 Spiketail Hatchling

Denial(13)
4 Stifle(used mostly as blue land destuction)
4 Force of will
2 Daze
3 Null Rod

Utility(7)
4 Brainstorm
3 Fire/Ice

Side board:
3 Energy Flux
3 Red elemental blast
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Annul
3 Rack and Ruin

One obviously oddball card is the blastminers.. I have only played a few games with them in the deck but they have proven themselves to be worthy of at least a little more testing. The 4th stifle is excellent. The sideboard I am still fighting over what I should really have in there, maybe a few gilded drakes in there for against oath. I unfortunately dont have people who play in my immediate area that play with Tier1 decks for me to test against... But overall opinions are greatly appreciated of course.

Thanks all

[PucktheCat]

Blastminers were tested pretty extensively by multiple people in the period leading up Fish's summer '03 run.  I tried them myself for a while.  They weren't good enough then, when control decks ran at most 1-2 basic Islands.  I doubt they will be good enough now.

[The Chosen One]

Blastminers were tested pretty extensively by multiple people in the period leading up Fish's summer '03 run. I tried them myself for a while. They weren't good enough then, when control decks ran at most 1-2 basic Islands. I doubt they will be good enough now.

 But with the uprising of decks playing Bazaar, I thought the addition might be worthy.. They might be proven to be a better sideboard card, I will have to try them more... Also with the 4 stifles maindecked, preventing fetches as much as possible, I hope to greatly decrease the opponents ability to fetch the basics. I like an opening hand with me on the play of Fetch,Stifle, Daze, Lavamancer(or shaman), Force, Rod, island.

[Hillboy]

I play TMWA and its pretty good at least in my meta, I was wondering if you don't use genju for any particular reason. The tempo they have is incredible the downside is unless its a late game you have to tap out to use them.

I use Hearth Kami and goblin vandal. Vandal kills moxes without dying but it does so for R. Kami is pretty cool because if it hits play and your opponent tinkers you can sac it in response targetting the artifact they elected to sac for tinker to effectively fizzle the spell, Vandal can't do that.

I don't know about blastminer at three mana to activate he's pretty expensive.

possibly good though I really don't know, I'll have to test it myself.

[Akuma]

FYI, you can't 'fizzle' Tinker with Hearth Kami. If they play the artifact and then Tinker, you never get priority to destroy it. If the artifact is in play, you would have to destroy it before Tinker is even announced.

[Hillboy]

I don't want to hijack the thread from Bruenors topic but if thats true about tinker than the judge where I was this weekend was wrong.

Good to know though I would run Vandal in Fish then as its a run drop that can kill almost any artifact you'll see for R.

[The Chosen One]

I had ran one genju in the deck for awhile(just because I had not found room for a 2nd) and when it came up it was amazing. I would consider dropping the blastminers for 2 vandals, this works out to be +2 artifact haters and also 2 additional one drops for ninja to ride the backs of.... I think it would be a good change, although I do like the mana denial theme I have gone with with this build... The stifles are most often used as blue land destrution(stopping fetches, wastelands etc...) if I can stall my opponents setup until I drop rod I would think the game should be in my hands..

[Harlequin]

Here is a little known power of the Genju + Lava mancer tag team.  You can play your genju on an opponent's mountian (or more importantly volcanic) and you retain ownership of the genju's animation ability.  When the mana is right, you can animate the land, and blast it with lavamancer, and in insane brokenness you return the genju to your hand.  Granted 2RR+RFG 2 cards and tap a creature - Is no small cost for destroy target mountain, but the genju doulbes as a clock.

another comment is that you might try Curiosity over brainstorm.  I understand the synergy with brainstorm + lavamancer .  But there is clear synergy btwn lavamancer and curiosity too.  Also haveing ninja's that draw 2 cards a turn gets really one sided really fast.

[The Chosen One]

another comment is that you might try Curiosity over brainstorm. I understand the synergy with brainstorm + lavamancer . But there is clear synergy btwn lavamancer and curiosity too. Also haveing ninja's that draw 2 cards a turn gets really one sided really fast.

My origional builds of fish ran standstill and curiosity both 4 of's and 3-4 ninjas. Being that is a fantastic draw engine for the deck, I have decided to experiment with the brainstorms in the slot for now... The loss of standstill is tolerable, and curiosity over turns will net huge amounts of cards instead of brainstorms dig, pick, feed mancer. It's still up in the air over which is going to stay in the deck...

[Harlequin]

I think Standstill has become a dated card.  Basically all the decks on the Type1 scene know how to play under and around the standstill.  The 3 card andvantage is not what It used to be.  If I had to venture a guess as to why this is the case, i would say the #1 influence on standstill's drop in effectiveness is a dirrect result of crucible of worlds.  Also the fact that gifts is an instant means they can choose to break the standstill durring your endstep, allowing them to gain a heavy advantage going into thier turn.  Also with only 4 force and 2 daze, clearly standstill would be a bad choice.

So standstill aside, Curiosity I think would just be better than brainstorm.  a friend of mine running UW fish has had phenominal success with 4 ninjas and 3 curiosities (with 4 flying men to support both either of those cards). 

I am 100% FOR the testing of other cards, but I would say give some testing/focus to curiosity without standstill.

[The Chosen One]

I am 100% FOR the testing of other cards, but I would say give some testing/focus to curiosity without standstill.

Agreed. Fish definitely needs to experiment with it's options. I will most likely make the following changes quite soon:
-2 Dwarven blastminer
+2 Goblin Vandal
-4 Brainstorm
+4 curiosity

The blastminers may find a way into the sideboard. Does anyone have recommendations for a sideboard for the Waterbury metagame? The one I have listed above seems decent, but like I mentioned earlier I do not have tier 1 competition at my local card store. Although I truly intend to make it to Sam's in Meriden soon

[Scoops666]

The blastminers may find a way into the sideboard. Does anyone have recommendations for a sideboard for the Waterbury metagame? The one I have listed above seems decent, but like I mentioned earlier I do not have tier 1 competition at my local card store. Although I truly intend to make it to Sam's in Meriden soon

Whal, luckily you don't *have* to worry about a sideboard for Waterbury yet, the next one is still 3 or 4 months away (or more). I would, however, suggest the folllowing cards as consideration for ANY metagame:

Tormod's Crypt (Gifts, Dragon, Graveyard in general)
Energy Flux (Workshop's)
REB effects (Other Fish, Control, Combo)
Pithing Needles (CS, Bazaar)
Rack and Ruin (and Shattering Spree for that matter)(Again Workshop)
Annuls (Workshop, Oath)

I believe thats a definate baseline for sideboard cards, however I don't play Fish so I may not be 100% accurate on these. Of course, only testing can really show what your weak matchups are and what you need to construct your sideboard like.

[The Chosen One]

To continue on brainstorm, the only reason it is even remotely favored at the moment is the fact it goes 3 deep for an answer. I would like a draw engine of 3 ninja, 4 brainstorm, 2-3 curiosity, maybe I can work this out. Has bouncer proved itself? What about sigil of sleep? Sigil does not require a pitch card, which is the one thing I dislike about bouncer(besides the U activation also).... If I ditched the bouncers I could run sigils.. The creature base I have is good but I think it needs some changes.

[exit music]

I've done some extensive testing with UW Fisih fairly recently, and I would like to make a few comments on your deck based on my observations.

1: You need a really good clock. What you have does not cut it. When building your deck, focus less on specific card choices and focus more on the goal of your deck, and then pick cards that achive that goal. Your opponent should not live past turn 6 or 7 at the very very latest. Only Ninja and Factory have 2 power, which means that you are going to be killing on turn 6 and 7 at the very best - you need to do better.

2: Spiketail hatchling is no good at all. I know what you are thinking "but with all the mana denial in this deck, his ability will counter a spell almost every time!!" However, not many opponents are going to walk themselves into a spiketail hatchling, so he will never ever counter anything relevant... and if you really want a force spike-ish counter, go with Daze - your opponent will not see it coming from 9 miles away, at least. You really really want to keep your creatures on the board.

3: Think of Fish like Workshop Aggro. You want to throw some serious disruption at your opponent in the first few turns, and follow it up with a really fast clock. Instead of spending 4 mana on Juggs, you spend 3-4 mana on a different combination of 5-6/x power worth of creatures. This shoul give your opponent a 4-5 turn clock to fight his way past your disruption, which hopefully, he wont be able to. Unlike MWS Aggro, you don't have to rely on a 4-of land to power out each of your threats.

4: DO NOT cut Brainstorm. Why? Well, you know those hands when you have the wrong answers to your opponents threats? Brainstorm cures this. You know when you really really need that FoW? Brainstorm finds it. Ect ect ect. Brainstorm is the last card you want to cut from your list. I am not against the use of another draw engine, however, because brainstorm is not a draw engine. It is just awesomely efficient card manipulation that belongs is pretty much every blue-based deck I can think of.

I can't really think of Red cards that help solve any of these problems - I would personally just run UW fish, but I can understand if you don't want to do that. But that is your job, I guess, as the deckbuilder. Good luck, I'm interested to see a final product - get some good testing in.

[Evenpence]

If I were to run UR Fish, I would run this:

Mana base (22)
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Tolarian Academy (this is like a 5th super wasteland, and can power out stuff quickly)
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

Creatures (16)
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Gorilla Shaman
4 Goblin Vandal
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
2 Waterfront bouncer

Spells (20)
3 Null Rod
4 Stifle  (this card is tech!)
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

Side board:
4 Energy Flux
4 Red elemental blast
3 Annul
2 Rack and Ruin
3 SOMETHING

I'm pretty much echoing what people have said in the previous lists, but:  WHY NO POWER?  I understand that Fish is a build that you can do with unpowered, but why would you not have lotus/sapphire/ruby in there, as well as ancestral and time walk?  That's only five pieces of power for the whole deck.

I would rather have Fire/Ice be buisness spells, like Ancestral or a creature that can do some damage, like Vandal or Lavamancer.

[Spartacus210]

Now there is no reason to go unpowered with this deck, unless your on budget and are playing no-proxy (which is rare). And even if it's only 5 proxy, you only need 5 power, sometimes even less to make this deck work.

Now heres the list I've been working with and have really decided upon. It's great fun, and has answers to all the questions.



// Lands
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Mishra's Factory
    3  Flooded Strand
    4  Volcanic Island
    1  Bloodstained Mire
    2  Polluted Delta
    3  Island
    1  Mountain

// Creatures
    4  Grim Lavamancer
    3  Ninja of the Deep Hours
    2  Gorilla Shaman
    3  Waterfront Bouncer
    2  Goblin Vandal

// Spells
    3  Null Rod
    3  Stifle
    2  Daze
    3  Annul
    3  Fire/Ice
    1  Time Walk
    4  Force of Will
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Ancestral Recall

// Sideboard
SB: 2  Goblin Vandal
SB: 3  Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4  Energy Flux
SB: 2  Rushing River
SB: 4  Pyrostatic Pillar

Since I'm really short on time right now, I can't go into detail about the particular card choices at the moment, but if you post your questions here about why I'm using a particular card, I'll do my best to get back to you in a reasonable amount of time.

Note: This is on 10-Proxy, tuned to have a good Stax game. My Oath match while still bad, is better than usual.

Quick question: I see more people doing 4 Stifle MD. I've found 3 to be very saucy, but is a fourth even better? I've got a spare so I'm wondering if I need it.

[[supa_t(im)]]

First off, no you can't fizzle tinker by destroying the artifact.  The artifact is destroyed as a part of the cost of tinker, so it would already be gone by the time you got priority.

I agree with everything exit music has said, and I have been trying to get a build that actually has a decent clock.  The deck can disrupt with the best of them, but I feel U/R's real weakness is a lack of a decent clock.  As it stands right now, I think the deck is around 1.5-2 turns slower than U/W, and that is a problem.  The addition of another 2 power beater would help, but I am having trouble figuring out what to cut.

@Evenpence
I like your build, but I don't think it has enough disruption, or enough of a clock.  Spells like Fire/Ice and Annul are there to help problem matchups like Oath and Stax.  I just have a bad feeling that dropping some of those spells is asking to be beaten.

My build is exactly like Spartacus's (mostly because he got it from me...) except for the SB.  Unfortunately I haven't tested enough recently to be of much more help (besides saying that exit music is right).  Magic is sorta on the back burner for me right now, so good luck with the deck guys.

[The Chosen One]

Here are the changes that I have made so far:
-2 blastminer
-1 stifle
+3 curiosity

The three curiosity just plain won me games yesterday. They are hot! I think I am going to have to agree with exit music on the spiketails, although they have done me some good, I think I can ditch them for more techy creatures. Changes I plan to make:
-4 Spiketail hatchling
+1 stifle(back to 4, they just ROCK)
+2 Goblin vandal
+1 daze(I think three is great, if I decide to run 2 I will replace the third with 1 voidmage prodigy as a 2/1 beater and pinch counter)

[orgcandman]

I think VMP is really awful. 5 mana to counter a spell? That's called force of will. And honestly, the only reason I run force is for when I'm tapped out or going second, so I'll almost never pay 5. If I didn't have to worry about my opponent going broken, I wouldn't even run force.

One thing you might consider is a few pyroblast main. Not REB, but blast. Why? #1, it's a solid reb effect. #2 it won't sit in your hand like reb will. #3 It will give your lavamancer more fuel.

Seeing as how it hits every blue card in existence, I'd say, run at least 2 blast main, unless you're in an area where there's no blue.

[thatguynextdoor]

With regards to the sideboard, I've seen some great results with Extract (not with my playing-but from what I have read over and over again). I would definitely suggest you maybe check into playtesting it and seeing how it works out for you. Every Fish/Fish-esque deck I have seen lately has been using them, so they gotta be showing some great results.

[The Chosen One]

I think VMP is really awful. 5 mana to counter a spell?

Actually it would be 4 mana, but I would doubt that I will run the voidmages anyway, I think a third daze is the better choice

A few pyroblasts could be decent, I will have to try them out

[GhrabirBoubi]

In regards to a faster clock.... Would not the inclusion of some Genju speed up the clock? Even a Genju of the falls would increase your clock..... it is a 3/2 Flyer for the same cost as a Faerie Conclave......which is only 2/1......as long as you play them on basics, i think they will make the deck hard to stop.As I have played against Bruenor's deck, its current build is good. But, its clock is slow enough to give me time to topdeck an answer...which I never seem to find....!!!!!!!!!!!@#$%!!!!!!!!!  I think either of the genju should work...But the falls has evasion... Just an opinion

[The Chosen One]

But, its clock is slow enough to give me time to topdeck an answer...which I never seem to find....!!!!!!!!!!!@#$%!!!!!!!!! I think either of the genju should work...But the falls has evasion...

That's because I straight up outdraw you    ha ha.

I am seriously considering throwing two genju of the spire or maybe just one into the deck. I had played with one in the deck before and with all the shuffle effects, I have a shot of seeing it a fair percentage of times.

Also, to touch on the power aspect of the deck, I do not think lotus really belongs, a lotus in the grave and an active welder ruins your null rod in play, and also I can think of stupid things I would do to someones animated factory if they had an artifact in the grave and I had a welder. I normally play with a group of people who do not have power, so, I dont proxy any. But, for a tournament I would run ruby, sapphire, time walk, ancestral, maybe library as well.

Also my sideboard is going to be cahnged to the following unless I change my mind again:
2 Tormods crypt
4 Energy Flux
3 Red elemental blast
3 Gilded drake
1 Waterfront bouncer
1 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of worlds
subject to change at my whim's of course

[Spartacus210]

My build is exactly like Spartacus's (mostly because he got it from me...) except for the SB.

Because I like your build best. It's worked out well for me. Hope you don't mind 

Anyway, having a 2-power beater besides Factory would be really saucy. However, I haven't really settled on one that I like very much. If I was using a Vial/Standstill/Chalice or something setup, I'd probably be using Prodigy. However, I'm not. So therefore I'm not using him. When I did, he was really just a 2/1 beatstick. I never used his counter ability. If someone can suggest a 2-power beater thats suitable for Fish, then by all means throw it out there.

From a quick search for possible candidates, heres what I turned up:

A) Hearth Kami - close, but no. Sure, it can off moxen for 0. But a Shaman can do that repeatedly, for 1.
B) Izzet Guildmage - I keep coming back to him. Someone should test this bad boy. Gives us a pretty stellar mid-long game. Think about Ancestral x 3...*needs a new pair of jeans*
C) Spark Elemental - also kinda close, but no. Actually, no. If we really wanted something along these lines, we'd be using Bolt. But we're not.
D) Voidmage Prodigy - previously mentioned; he shows promise. Maybe he even warrants some more testing, giving the boy a chance.

And thats really all I found for decent things to run. I think the most promising one is the Guildmage. I like him a lot; he looks good on paper. I'll do some playing around with him, and see how things turn out.

[goblin stir fry]

I've been playing U/R fish for a while now and i think that i have what should be if not definitive one of the better builds around. Though its true this is a metagame deck and there are a lot of metagamed card choices in my build i think that its still one of the more reliable ones out there. I figure the best way to explain the deck is to give a card by card run down of everything in the deck and why i have certain numbers of them.

Creatures:
3x gorilla shaman
4x grim lavamancer
2x rootwater thief
1x waterfront bouncer
4x cloud of faeries
4x ninja of the deep hours

Disruption:
2x stifle
2x daze
4x force of will
1x misdirection

Techy stuff:
1x ancestral recall
1x time walk
1x echoing truth
4x standstill
3x fire/ice
1x rushing river

Mana sources:
2x island
4x volcanic island
4x wasteland
4x flooded strand
4x mishras factory
1x library of Alexandria
1x strip mine
1x mox sapphire
1x mox ruby

     Now for the run down. First we have 3 mox monkey it effectively deals with moxen sol ring mana crypt mana vault and chalice of the void quickly and effectively regardless of the color of mana your using to activate him you can also use him at instant speed and swing with him and use his ability on the same turn and he costs one red mana which is why i think he is the correct card to run over goblin vandal, viashino heretic, and hearth kami in the main. Following this up we have 4 grim lavamancer which is an effective 1 mana 1/1 that can kill welders, burn face, and allow for a turn two ninja of the deep hours. Next on the list we have 2 of the powerhouse that is mike long AKA rootwater thief he's a spicy 2 mana 1/2 that, if resolved first turn can SERIOUSLY damage damage the functionability of decks like oath and gifts if they have a slow draw. Following that up i run 1 waterfront bouncer its ability is potent against any deck running guys such as oath, stax, aggro workshop, other fish decks, and anything like that, but as a 1/1 for 2 and the fact that you have to pay mana AND pitch a card i find that sometimes bounce is just better but the fact that he can turn sideways and make ninjas warrent him as a nice 1 of. Than of course there is cloud of faeries 4 of them to be exact simply because they can cycle under standstill they're a 1/1 that allows you to untap lands which has incredible synergy with library of Alexandria, you can lay them and standstill or lay them and swing with factory and the fact that you can get that extra 1 power on the board even though it is just one can really swing the tide of the game over 2-3 turns shortening the clock and giving you the ability to win simply because you played more threats than you should have been able to. For the next man at bat we have 4 ninja of the deep hours essentially the main card drawing engine in the deck and an uncountarable 2 power creature this guy is an absolute house he creates ridiculous card advantage and can come in under standstill which is why i love him so much.

     Now we move onto disruption starting off with stifle as a 2 of which i find to be the right number because a lot of the time it tends to be dead but when its usefull its crazy good i usually end up siding it out against anything but combo, but the fact that it can hit fetchlands and shut of a smokestack for a turn netting you huge card advantage and tempo warrants it in the main for game one at the least. Speaking of tempo the next card, 2 daze, tends to be a powerful free counterspell though slowing you down a turn can usually hurt an opponent enough to give you an extra turn or two to run out threats because the only reason they should be tapping out is if there about to do something big but i don't find the situation comes up often enough to be running More than 2 of them, usually the fear of them slows my opponent down. After daze the next piece of disruption is force of will. I'm running these because they allow me to tap out and still counter threats which allows me to shorten the clock that way i don't have to keep mana open to get rid of tinker/balance/pyroclasm/old man of the sea and other such cards. Than after that i run 1 misdirection which can sometimes act as a fifth force of will and can wreck someone when they cast ancestral recall and its an overall versatile card.

     Funny were on the subject of recall seeing as its the next card, it allows you to draw three cards at instant speed for one blue mana. its good. end of story. Next we have time walk which can shorten the clock, put a lot of pressure on your opponent and sometimes just win the game. after this is echoing truth which is more hate against gifts, oath, aggro decks, and sometimes it can save your guys its just a very versatile card and I'd hate not to have it. Now we get to standstill which some of you have said is "dated" and people know how to play against it now, which they do but i find that if they hesitate at all even 1 turn to break it, it can spell there doom the fact that you can start putting down ninjas and swinging with guys and putting down factory's while there doing nothing but building up there hand for 1 turn or even 2 can give you a huge advantage. More tech comes in fire/ice which allows you to sometimes kill your opponent kill 2 welders tap down blockers or tolarian acadamy during there upkeep its a very good techy versatile card and if you cant find a good use for it you can always pitch it to FOW. After this is another good bounce spell, rushing river i like rushing river over a second echoping truth because its much harder to lay chalice for 3   and the fact that it can bounce two things really helps out against oath.

     That's not the end though because now I'm gonna tell you why i run lands in here yes you heard me correctly why i run certain lands. 2 islands are in this deck because they dodge wasteland and produce mana and allow me to play spells, obv. 4 volc island because they can be searched up with fetches and produce 2 different colors they allow me to play spells, obv again. 4 wasteland they produce mana blow up bazaar, academy, workshop, library, and duals which is good for me and bad for them. 4 flooded strand it should probably be 2 strand and 2 deltas but i like to have symmetry in my deck but other than that poor choice i run these to thin lands out so i can draw good cards instead of more lands. You will also find 4 mishra's factorys in this deck because they swing for 2, they're uncounterable, and you can play them under standstill. I play library of Alexandria in this deck because of its amazing synergy with cloud of faeries and also because laying this turn one on the draw can give you enough card advantage that your opponent just cant win I'm almost never worried about having enough cards because i can draw numerous cards of ninja(s) . There is one strip mine in the deck because it does what wasteland does and more which is good otherwise it wouldn't be restricted. I also play one of each on color mox so i can make plays like turn one rootwater thief, turn one mox monkey with mana open to eat stuff, turn one cloud monkey or mancer, and other stuff like that again  it a tempo thing.

[Spartacus210]

So...much...text... :shock:

I see where your going with your choices. I'll explain mine tomorrow, but for now I have a couple questions/comments/suggestions for you:

Why are you not using Vial? You don't have Rod in the deck, and you've got Standstill. So I see no real reason ('sides opposing Rods) to run Vial. Standstill and Vial pumping out threats while keeping answer-mana up is saucy.

I find Long to be a mana-hog. Also why I cut Prodigy early. I tried to keep UU open at all times, and that just killed my ability to answer my opponent and continue with the threats. I can see him as SB-tech vs. Oath, GIfts, etc. But not main.

Library doesn't fit at all. We're supposed to be dropping the threats, and only keeping back the answer. Not a full hand of 7. Really the only times my hand is 7 is at the start of the game.

Your lack of Lotus makes me sad. The tempo boost it gives can be sickening.

You already mentioned it yourself, but drop 2 Strands for 2 Deltas. Makes Needle much less useful.

Waste-CoW lock keeps you off red mana. I suggest 1 Mountain to be levered in there somewhere.

Has 1 Bouncer been sufficient? When I ran 2 I was always happy to draw him, no matter who I was against.

3 Shaman is overkill. There are only so many Moxen/Mana artifacts you can nuke. And if the CMC goes past 1, the mana requirement get ball-busting. 2 sounds good.

Your lack of Vandal looks saddening. From what I can tell, your Stax matchup looks abysmal. Shaman does jack-shit against lock pieces.

Faeries don't look so saucy. A 1/1 for 1U I don't see as very effecient. I know you can argue he's "free" but he's not aggressive. And the cute trick with Standstill doesn't happen often enough to consider it worth running.

Again, I'll explain my own choices (but if you have any detailed questions, you should ask tim. My build is based largely on his, with a few self-made tweaks) tomorrow. I'm tired right now.

[goblin stir fry]

heres my defense of card choices when you get time I'd very much  like to see a rebuttal


I've considered using vial but don't know what to cut for it though it is something i would like to be playing

yes long is a mana hog and so is prodigy i agree with both of those but i find its just a really good card late game against anything and early against gifts and a slow oath draw its definitely won me games

as for library if your playing the mirror and theres not a lot of action it can get retarded especially when your under standstill and also on the first couple of turns in a game i love to play it out in the control matchups it gives so much card advantage against anything running drain you almost always win

in the this build theres nothing particularly i want to accelerate into with lotus though Ive never tested with it so i don't know if it really is good enough

again delta/strand of course it should be split up your right but I'm too lazy to find deltas

i don't run a basic mountain because i have no way of fetching it and don't want to run foothills and i really want any land thats producing a color to produce blue because thats more than 60% of the deck

i find that it should probably be two bouncers but hes just too small sometimes and i want my two drops to be bigger

i run 3 rack and ruin out of the board to deal with lock pieces but again i run 3 shaman because he can get through and blow stuff up at the same time

im trying to fit vandal in the board against stax because it is a pretty bad match up

I'm running the faeries because it allows me to play multiple threats per turn and do stupid stuff with library of Alexandria

[exit music]

I've been thinking and brainstorming about this decklist since I made my post here a few days ago and I think I have a list... I know there have been a lot of lists recently, but I think this one seems pretty all-encompassing regarding what a fish deck needs in order to win games against a diverse field. I'll give some decent explanation regarding a few of the more important selections.

UR Jitte Fish:

Clock: 17
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Vandal
3 Gorilla Shaman
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Disrupt: 7
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Rushing River
1 Echoing Truth

Counters: 8
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
2 Stifle

Broken: 6
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

Mana: 22
1 Sapphire
1 Ruby
1 Black Lotus

1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island
2/2 Delta + Flooded Strand
3 Island
3 Mishra's Factory

SB possibility:
4x Reb/Pryoblast
2-3 Gilded Drake
2-3 Pithing Needle
Rack and Ruins/Energy Flux/Annul
Extract

ect ect


The Disruption base:

Key cards here are 4 Chalice of the Void and 3 Gorilla Shaman. I have a deep love for Null Rod, but I decided that UR Fish can not exist without a really good clock, and due to a lack in efficient beaters, Jitte has to be the way to go. Because of this, Null Rod can't be in the MD. I've always liked the combo of Chalice + Shaman because the mox monkey does a really good job at cleaning up the arifact accelerants that Chalice misses. It can also eat annoying Pithing needles, which is nothing to scoff at. Chalice is pretty good at preventing Tinker from having artifacts to sacrifice, in the first 4-5 turns at least, which is really all you should need.

Rushing River and Echoing Truth serve multiple purposes. Firstly, they bounce DSC. Any deck like this needs a way to get rid of DSC - Fire/Ice does not cut it as permanent removal - not even close. Bounce also gives you some nice answers to Stax lock parts. Chalice for 1 is a huge kick in the nuts against this deck - 3 bouncers kinda helps this out a little bit. All of this wrapped up into 1 card - seems pretty efficient. If you are expecting less Oath and more Gifts, 2 Truth/1 River would be fine.

Daze and Stifle make nice little 2 ofs. They both often produce effects that alter the whole state of the game, but at other times they will sit dead in your hand. These 4 spots are very versetile - you could run almost anything in these spots, from Fire/Ice to Lightning Bolt to Misdirection to Pithing Needle to Rack and Ruin to Red Elemental Blast, ect ect. Daze and Stifle help slow my opponents mana fronts at the very least, and can win games if played when the timing is perfect.

The dudes:
Ninja is the way this deck keeps fueled up. This guy replaces Standstill and Curiosity because not only does he act as the draw engine for your deck, he beats down for 2 per turn, is very rarely dead - unlike the other two - and completely avoids mana drain. 4 Goblin Vandal provide a little more insurance against moxen or other scary artifacts, plus, if you can resolve one of these guys against Stax on your first turn, they have to completely re-evaluate how they plan on winning the game. Grim Lavamancer cleans up Welders for you pretty well... clears any blockers, is a Ninjitsu target, and sometimes can bolt your opponent to death - not bad for just R. Jitte is the reason this deck is able to win. It makes all of those measly 1 drops into huge MFing big threats. Jitte is normally about a 4 turn clock combined with all of your beats, and hopefully with some nice mana disruption and well-timed counters, you should be able to stall your opponent enough to push through those last bits of damage.

[The Chosen One]

Has anyone considered running maybe jackal pups or goblin cadets as a 2/1 beater? They may be worth a shot, although just attacking for two is the only ability they have, ninja wants a 1 drop to piggyback onto of course.

@exit music- do you think jitte is superior to Sword of fire and ice for this deck? I understand completely that actual performance wise Jitte is just the BETTER card, but in U/r fish, I think sword might be slightly better as for example your mancers become bolt, beb, fire/ice proof, and a ninja with a sword attached is just plain SICK. Also that jitte is legendary, but the cast and equip cost is perfect for fish's mana curve... I would like to maybe try both out seperately or run 2 jitte 1 sofi or something just to see how they do.

[Spartacus210]

I see the need for a faster clock needed in U/R fish, and both SoFI and Jitte fit the bill as accomplishing this. It should deserve testing, But I think that SoFI might be a little far up the curve to work. It's worth a shot, but I don't have time to test right now. Anyone wanna do that and come back here with results?

I've considered using vial but don't know what to cut for it though it is something i would like to be playing

Well, I would cut the 2 Longs and 1 Shaman. 3 Vials should be enough to run with. But I don't like Long that much, so you may not wanna follow my advice.

yes long is a mana hog and so is prodigy i agree with both of those but i find its just a really good card late game against anything and early against gifts and a slow oath draw its definitely won me games

Like I said, I can see it as a SB card. It's has its uses. Like an Extract on legs. I read about Extract as Oath SB tech for the mirror, and Long (Extract on legs, as I said) can work for us. Right now, I think I have an alright Oath match (3 Stifle, 3 Bouncers MD, 2 RR coming out of the board, 3 Annul MD) but I think it could work wonderfully for a Gifts match. Yank out their DSC and they're either A) fucked or B) fall back on the more difficult to pull off Tendrils win. He could stay as a 2-of.

as for library if your playing the mirror and theres not a lot of action it can get retarded especially when your under standstill and also on the first couple of turns in a game i love to play it out in the control matchups it gives so much card advantage against anything running drain you almost always win

Maybe your build just holds more cards in hand. I find myself with 4-5. I've even had to go down to topdecking (but not often)

in the this build theres nothing particularly i want to accelerate into with lotus though Ive never tested with it so i don't know if it really is good enough

Lotus just allows for huge starts that are hard to recover from. It may not do broken things like it can in other decks, but Fish doesn't do broken. It kicks broken in the teeth, and then pings them to death by 1's and 2's.

again delta/strand of course it should be split up your right but I'm too lazy to find deltas

Point dropped.

i don't run a basic mountain because i have no way of fetching it and don't want to run foothills and i really want any land thats producing a color to produce blue because thats more than 60% of the deck

You can use a Mire/Foothill to grab a Volc and get blue if you need to. I like having the option of getting access to red under Waste-CoW lock. A little insurance strategy.

i find that it should probably be two bouncers but hes just too small sometimes and i want my two drops to be bigger

Normally, I would scoff at Bouncer being a 1/1 for 1U. However, his ability is infinitely useful. It can be good in a lot of matchups (aforementioned Oath, Gifts (DSC), R/G (it is!), even UW Fish (it won me a game vs. this one time)). Its ability is helpful enough that you can look past its frailty.

i run 3 rack and ruin out of the board to deal with lock pieces but again i run 3 shaman because he can get through and blow stuff up at the same time

I like RaR out of the board. No arguments there. Shaman however, while a good Ninja-enabler, just doesn't do much else. Stax does use Moxen, yeah. But in a Stax match I would much rather use Vandal. Also one-drop, and the artifacts he blows on are significantly larger. Anything past CMC 1 is practically out-of-range for a Shaman.

im trying to fit vandal in the board against stax because it is a pretty bad match up

No arguments here either.

I'm running the faeries because it allows me to play multiple threats per turn and do stupid stuff with library of Alexandria

Library schennigans are cute, but with Library as a simple one-of, I don't see the impact being that huge. Multiple threats per turn does seem fun. However, I see it as being slightly different: drop a threat and leave mana up for stuff. Seems fun. Maybe I'm being a bit close-minded about Cloud. I'll get my hands on some and fiddle a bit with them.