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Author Topic: Unpowered Oath  (Read 6382 times)
eXistenZe
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« on: March 05, 2006, 04:30:46 pm »

Since p9 isn’t available to everyone’s pocket and vintage is my favorite format, I’ve been trying to build and develop this cheaper version of Oath of the Druids. It has been a few months now and I have played a lot against other unpowered t1 deck, so I’ll just post the choices and results I’ve made this far.

Oath of the Druids (w/o p9)

Mana Base:
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 City of Brass
1 Chrome Mox
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Diamond

Combo:
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Spirit of the Night
2 Gaea's Blessing
4 Oath of Druids

Counter Base:
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Misdirection
4 Duress

Draw/Tutor Base:
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
3 Impulse
4 Brainstorm

Control/Other:
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Crop Rotation

Sb:
3 Null Rod
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Balance
2 Ground Seal
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Rushing River
2 Tormod's Crypt

Changes from the first version:
- Replaced 1 Scruband to 1 Island
- Replaced 4 StP (Mb) with 4 Duress (Sb)
- Added 1 Crop Rotation
- Rushing River went to Sb
- Removed Berserk from Sb


The mana base:
First of all, this is a 4c deck! It needs mana of all kinds, and fast. Moxs and petal gives a small chance to play 1st turn oaths or impulse. If not, I must be able to play b/w tutor or brainstorm. That’s why I play with an army of duals and fetch lands instead of leaving a few basic lands. Unpowered oath has lots of weaknesses, but wasteland is not one of them. If my opponent wants to spend a 1st or 2nd turn wasteland, it’s his problem. My first spells are always draw/tutor instants or oath (luckily), and so I won’t need to stock lands from then on.

The combo:
I choose to play with 2 blessing (instead of the new version single blessing) cause this is a very very slow deck. Playing oath at first turn is almost a miracle; as so, I really need two of them, cause one unlucky draw won’t ruin the hole game. I can always wait for a brainstorm or just stick with it in my hand and pray for not having a second super-unlucky draw.

The creatures:
Akroma is an obvious choice and Spirit of the Night is the second best hasted creature in magic. Razia falls very easily to dark hate and my counter base is kinda limited; I simply can’t afford to protect creatures all the time.

The counter base:
Since I’m playing with dual lands in unpowered background, I find no problem at all in using counterspells. Force of Will is awesome for a safe oath spell, for countering counters, etc, etc, etc. Chalice of the Void is simply useless or suicide in unpowered games. Mana drain is a good card in oath… if you wanna get mana burned… Misdirection is one of those cards that can be pretty useless against some classic decks, but sometimes it puts opponents thinking “God damn!”.

Draw/tutor base:
All these cards follow the basic rule “Oath does not like me. It will not come to me unless I go fetch for it…”.  Sometimes I fell like I’m playing with a 100card deck, I just play 2/3 brainstorm, 2 impulse and I see every single card in this damn deck except Oath of Druids. Playing a second turn oath is a very good beginning. A 5th turn oath is a game over (unless you’re playing noobs).

Other cards:
Pernicious Deed gives the control factor over slow games and cleans a few key cards like med mage, needle, and locking enchantments. STP makes sure that no creature will block my angel and spirit.

Sideboard:
Berserked colossus is the hugest beast possible in a stable t1 deck. I’m also trying to find a place for dragon breath, but it’s so rare to make a 2nd/3rd turn 22/11 attack that I’m kinda hesitating. Ground Seal is a warranty for a few matchups, but I kinda like the “draw a card” ability. Null rod sends affinity pretenders directly home (saves time and patience). Duress is… cool… but honestly I never ever dared to place them in main board.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2006, 05:41:12 pm by eXistenZe » Logged
sa17dk
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« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2006, 12:10:55 am »

Duress > Counterspell. It's cheaper, can be played first turn to look at their hand, and its hard to keep UU up for Counterspell even in versions running 2 basic islands.

As for your Tinker plan, what are you gonna pitch to Tinker o.O Berserk is also unneeded.

Deed is crap in Oath, since it will usually destroy your own Oath and their tokens. Another thing about deed is that you'll usually be tapped out trying to cast tutors/draw, and if you do have mana open, you'll need it for protection.
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« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2006, 08:01:34 am »

Your deck looks decent, and I agree that a few duresses might we good in that deck, but I would suggest getting away from the multi-color oath.  Although it is a totally different deck, Here is my "mono-blue" oath that chooses to not run moxen in search of a more stable, primarily basic land mana scructure.  Here is a link to the deck list:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27127.0
But starting from my 55 Core deck cards you would cut:
- 4 Drain
- mox
- lotus
- Ancestral recall
- Timewalk
+ Add back in mana scources (+U fetch, +Island or Trop)
==> 49 Card core deck and 11 cards to have fun with.
I would not include any of the heavy mana cards (like deep A. or FOF) because you dont have drain. 

One option would be to go:
+3 Counterspell
+2 Echoing truth
+2 Intuition
+4 Accumulated Knowledge

This gives you extra powerful draw.  And you can muddle for AK.


Another choice is to go with some heavy control
+3 Counterspell
+3 Disrupt
+2 Echoing truth
+3 "Meta control cards"
---- Depending on your meta, you could use a variety of cards from this list in that spot
  Annul => stax/shop heavy meta
  Blue Elemental Blast => Heavy Red or Red splash or dragon
  Null Rods* => Artifact mana or RavAffinity
  Ground Seal* => Welder/dragon heavy - also rogue combo like Bomberman.
  Sylvan Scrying* => Oath Heavy
  Propaganda => Madness/ShopAgro/Stompy Heavy
  Vedalken Shackles => Stompy/fish heavy
  Rushing River => "Chalice for 2" heavy

*Note- The cards marked with a * each can be "muddled" for.  So for example including...
+1 Null Rod
+1 Ground seal
+1 Sylvan Scrying
Would give you alot of situational cards that you can transmute for.

I'm not sure this deck will be as vialble without mana drain... or timewalk for that matter.  I have never tested the deck without drain... But This deck has consistant enough countermagic to not need to first turn an oath.  Take a bit and read the posts on the thread above.  It may convince you to go mono-blue, It may give you some new ideas to expand your build, It may be a total waste of time... But I really doubt you will get nothing out of it.


 
 
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« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2006, 10:40:02 am »

I would suggest:
-2 StPS
+2 Mana Leak

With an unpowered, slower deck, you'll want that extra counterspell early on.

-3 Null Rod from Sideboard
+3  Null Rod to main deck
-2 StPS main deck
-1 Pernicious deeds maindeck

Why isn't this main decked? Its just a house to slow down/stop so many decks.  I recognize that your deck is unpowered, but this is change is more conscious of other decks. Maybe in your local meta null in side is the right choice. But in most other tournaments, I'd go rod main

-2 pernicious deed
+2 engineered explosives
This is to simply ease up on the mana requirements of your deck. You can easily set explosives at 2, 3 or 4 which should be all you need to do. But, in a pinch, say you don't have black mana online...which would you rather have in hand...deeds or explosives?

From sideboard:
-2 skeletal scrying
-1 berserk
+3 StPS

If you aren't main decking scrying, why bother with it in Oath?  And the berserk win...just not worth it. If its not in hand, it'll probably go to your gy. Then it gets shuffled back in and you have about a 1: 45 chance of drawing it.

Don't worry about Swords main deck. What creatures in T1 are you concerned will be blocking your fliers?  Other oath decks? Fine, side them in.

+3 tormod's crypt to SB: General all around hoser against many decks. 
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eXistenZe
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« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2006, 06:32:04 pm »

I do see that duress is a great card. But if my opening hand as 0 oath, 1 tutor and 1 duress, I would go for tutor in 90% of the games. As for 1 brainstorm and 1 duress, it would be a 50/50 choice, depending on the matchup.

Tinker was in my old oath when I had other artifacts to break. Right now it doesn't make much sense. I'll put it off.

As for deed, I kinda like it... It is mainly used in two situations: before I have an oath in play, or when I no longer need it (or have another one in my hand).
The black mana requirement is not due to deed, but to vampiric and demonic tutors. That’s why my first fetch is always for a sea. But explosives would ease my mana costs in early turns. Nevertheless, I prefer deed. Oath of the Druids is a control deck and deed cleans up the table and allows you to restart your game. Explosives are kinda targeted: you play it thinking “I want to destroy this card”. Deed is useful to control your opponent’s moves.

Null Rod is not suitable to my local games. There are currently no key artifacts to justify 3 main deck slots. If they appear, I’ll side them in. Before that, I guess they’ll stay in Sb.

Tormod's crypt is one those cards than win games… at least a few ones… In mirror match it’s a 99% of chances to win. Specially against the old school Oaths. In a matchup against affinity this is my worst nightmare (before I side Rod in, of course). I think it deserves some testing.

STPs aren’t really needed for main deck. I guess they’ll go to Sb. This way I’ll be able to increase my control base, either with duress, muddle or leak.
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mattdeballer
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« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2006, 02:37:00 pm »

i played u/g/b oath before, and found it was very inconsistent. i was on a similar boat as you. there were games that somehow i couldnt hit an oath for the life of me no matter how many brainstorms ak's or impulses i played. playing duress mainboard worked wonders for me. i LOVED it!!!! i also loved the 2nd blessing in the deck in case i drew the first. i  personally played deed in the side cuz it hurts u almost as much if not more than your opponet. replace them with bounce spells. also drop 2 trops for basic islands. this gives u more waste protection as well as blue to protect yourself.  hope this helps
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« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2006, 03:05:13 pm »

I do see that duress is a great card. But if my opening hand as 0 oath, 1 tutor and 1 duress, I would go for tutor in 90% of the games. As for 1 brainstorm and 1 duress, it would be a 50/50 choice, depending on the matchup.

This might be why you dont like duress.  Given the option of a turn one duress I will play it 99% of the time.  I would probably turn 1 duress over turn 1 tinker, or turn 1 Orchard/mox -> oath.  Turn 1 duress gives you the ability to Plan your next 2 or 3 turns rather reliably.  Unless they've got 2 chalice a workshop, it is highly likely you will be able to do your tutor or other turn 1 option on your 2nd turn.  and you'll be able to do it with confidance.  A duress will generally either be a counterspell (removeing a threat that you would have countered) or will add a turn or two, to your opponents win speed.  It also has the potential to anihilate combo, sending them into topdeck mode almost imediately.  For example your opponent grips... Land grant, Ancestral, Dark rit, Chromatic sphere, Tinderwall, welder, Sol ring.  Not a great hand, but playable ... if you tutor on turn one without force, It's likely you wont get another turn.
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eXistenZe
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« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2006, 11:43:48 am »

Ok... you win.. 4 duress to Mb in replace of StP.
But notice that ancestral is p9, turn 1 tinker IS a miracle w/o p9 and there is no decent stormcombo in unpowered games.
I've made a few other chances to Sb also.

Thanks for the tips. Hope you continue to help me  Very Happy
« Last Edit: March 13, 2006, 05:14:29 am by eXistenZe » Logged
Metman
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« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2006, 11:35:38 am »

I have been working on unpowered Oath for a while now and have taken a different approach to the deck.  My general plan was to make it simple and base it similarly to Meandeck Oath.  The reason for this is that it has a solid mana base and it's consistant as hell.  Other than the tutor power of black, I don't like it in Oath.  It also complicates the mana base.  Instead of running Duress or StP I have opted for free counter magic.  The counter base is:

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Leak
2 Misdirection
2 Daze
2 Stifle

Free counterspells I think are key in playing an unpowered version.  Believe it or not the Daze come in very handy especially very early but getting into a counter war with Gifts or Slaver can be tough sometimes when they have better draw than you.  The free spells that force them to tap out or close to it messes up the bomb they were trying to resolve.  I also run a full compliment of Waste/Strip.  The Stifles are bombs hitting Storm and Dragon which can be a real hassel against Oath, plus they hit the fetchlands crippling a control decks mana plan.

I also think that playing Crop Rotation is a must.  It finds your Forbidden Orchard, plain and simple.  I have also been running Life from the Loam and found it to be great.  It smoothes the mana out real nice if you are fighting off Wastelands.  The dredge is also great when you run Aks and Deep Analysis.  I run 2 Intuition, 4 Aks, and 1 Deep Analysis.  This configuration is great to refill your hand after you fight through your Oath.  Once you mill to your angel you should be able to refill your hand to protect it and seal the game. 
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« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2006, 11:49:15 am »

Without moxen, Mana Leak is sub-optimal.  I would definately suggest something like regular Counterspell, or Muddle the Mixture... or something like Annul, Disrupt, Force spike etc.  The difference between 1U and UU is inconsiquential if your only running Blue mana.  2cc is 2cc. 
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« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2006, 01:34:35 pm »

also, you really only need 1 gaea's blessing, that should open up a spot for something else (see above suggestions)
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« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2006, 07:44:10 pm »

Without moxen, Mana Leak is sub-optimal.  I would definately suggest something like regular Counterspell, or Muddle the Mixture... or something like Annul, Disrupt, Force spike etc.  The difference between 1U and UU is inconsiquential if your only running Blue mana.  2cc is 2cc. 

This would be true if he were only playing blue mana but he is running a full compliment of strips and wastelands.  In my budget version I'm also running a sol ring and chrome mox which also produce colorless.  That's six mana producers, I would hate to be sitting there with an island and sol ring with a counterspell in my hand.  I like the idea of Annuls and Disrupt but they seem too narrow to play as a 4 of.  Now Muddle seems like a great fit in an unpowered Oath deck, especially one not running black.  It finds Oath, AK, and in my version LftL all of which are potential bombs.  I will test it to see how it is as a 4 of and 2 of.
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« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2006, 09:33:15 am »

This would be true if he were only playing blue mana but he is running a full compliment of strips and wastelands.  In my budget version I'm also running a sol ring and chrome mox which also produce colorless.  That's six mana producers, I would hate to be sitting there with an island and sol ring with a counterspell in my hand.  I like the idea of Annuls and Disrupt but they seem too narrow to play as a 4 of.  Now Muddle seems like a great fit in an unpowered Oath deck, especially one not running black.  It finds Oath, AK, and in my version LftL all of which are potential bombs.  I will test it to see how it is as a 4 of and 2 of.

Muddle the Mixture + Lat Nam's Legacy is Tech for "Hand Adjustment"  When you need to unload those creatures.
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eXistenZe
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« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2006, 01:30:54 pm »

Daze in oath? Never heard of such a thing. I need every single land in play to keep my UGB game. And when I would be able to spare a land, I think my opponent wouldn’t mind paying (1).
My first and second versions of oath (this is the fourth) had stifle in Mb, but I found it to be near useless in my metagame. That's the only reason why I took them away.
LatN Leg seems and interesting card to test. It really solves those unlucky draws. I guess I'll give it a try.
Crop rotation has one major set-back: it's restricted. Does one Crop really make a difference in Oath? I'm trying it in Sb and I only board it in when I want to laugh a bit at other's waste heavy decks.
Muddle the mixture is one great card, but the UU cost makes it near impossible to play with counterspells. 8 UU counters is suicide in UBG oath. The transmutation ability is useful, but it allows only a turn 3 oath with luck (normally a turn 4 oath, meaning a turn 5 creature, aka gameover). This is only reliable in a pure control oath.
The single blessing idea is not a possibility. This is a slow deck and I don’t want to be torned apart by a stifle, or a few bad draws.
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« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2006, 01:48:03 pm »

Crop rotation has one major set-back: it's restricted. Does one Crop really make a difference in Oath?

So is:
Black Lotus
Moxen
TimeWalk
Ancestral Recall
Yawg's Will
Tinker
etc at nauseam

Restriction is not an excuse to not run a card. Crop Rotation is a bomb in Oath. It does 2 things. It protects your non-basic heavy mana base AND it tutors for half of your combo. There is not a reason to not run Crop Rotation in your Oath (unless you arn't playing green, but then I think you have other issues  Wink)

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eXistenZe
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« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2006, 05:39:37 pm »

1 black lotus is much better than a crop (about x100). So is each mox, time walk, recall, etc etc.
When I said that, I meant that one crop is not has good has it seems. I've tested it a few times 'till now, and it barely made a difference in my games. I am not going to tutor it, so it's kinda rare drawing it.
From my experience with oath, I would say that the top 15 cards of the deck are the key to a nice and clean winning. If I have the choice to define those cards, Crop certainly wouldn't be there...
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« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2006, 09:42:00 pm »

I am a strong advocate for Crop Rotation in any deck that can A) support green B) depends on a specific land.  It's a strong reason why green is played in Dragon.  It finds the needed land period.  Just because it's restricted doesn't mean you shouldn't play it.  If you could plan your top 15 cards I'm sure Forbidden Orchard would be one of the top cards...am I right.  Well shit happens and the odds don't always speak the truth.  The Crop Rotation will serve as a basic, strip, dual, or orchard when needed. 

The reason I suggested Daze was to clue you in to how would play a budget Oath deck.  I would go as simple as possible playing heavy blue, a splash of green and attack their mana base as hard as possible.  Daze, Mana Leak, and Stifle all serve a role in an Oath deck that does this.  Of course their are arguments for and against each of those counters and more.  I can clearly see the disadvantage of playing Daze when you depend more heavily on duals.  I'm mearly giving you ideas and suggested ways to build a budget version of this deck. 

I haven't tested Lat Nam's Legacy in any Oath deck.  I can see why it would be a great card when Akroma/BadAssCreature pops into your hand or if you get flooded with 3 Forbidden Orchards, Gaea's Blessing, and Chrome Mox but aren't there better ways to search and fix your hands? 

The argument over whether to run 1 or 2 Blessings still befuddles me.  I play a counter heavy budget Oath and my fully powered version is based closely to the Meandeck build with lots of blue counters.  If you are running Duress wouldn't Stifle be the first one to go for.  It protects the uncounterable Akroma doesn't it?  Once you push through your Oath the only thing you have to worry about is Swords and Stifle.  Bounce sucks and so does a bigger creature but that can be handled. 

So Existance what have you been testing, what have you found, and what are some questions/comments that you have?
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eXistenZe
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« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2006, 02:01:48 pm »

I haven't been testing this deck every day (cause I'm also a block constructed fan), but I've made a few games since the beginning of this thread and here are my conclusions:

1- Duress is indeed a good choice and has a larger utility than StPs. It's unbelieveble the way people prefer FOWing my duress than letting me rip one of their cards...
2- Crop Rotation is also an interesting card... Specially in UBG. It helps allot with mana screw, and can be played at 1st turn (unless it gets FOWed... noooooooo) for bringing an underground sea -> duress/tutor/brainstorm, or later to fetch an orchard... I replaced Rushing River to Sb in favor to Crop.
3- Lat-Nam's Legacy... Well, I haven't tested it yet (I can't find a slot for it). It seems a nice card, and has a huge utility (drawing, returning) in this deck. I'll save it for later.
4- I didn't get the all-mighty-stifle thing... It just doesn’t fit in my metagame (nor any other). I used to play with one in Sb just in case a Stasis showed up.
5- There are two different unpowered oath:
5.1- The UBG one (THIS)
5.2- The Pseudo MBC
Either you play with one or you play with the other; I choose to play with UBG, so I will not transform it step by step until it becomes a MB.

By the way, it's eXistenZe (don't you watch some decent movies?)...
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« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2006, 08:17:27 pm »

I haven't been testing this deck every day (cause I'm also a block constructed fan), but I've made a few games since the beginning of this thread and here are my conclusions:

1- Duress is indeed a good choice and has a larger utility than StPs. It's unbelieveble the way people prefer FOWing my duress than letting me rip one of their cards...
2- Crop Rotation is also an interesting card... Specially in UBG. It helps allot with mana screw, and can be played at 1st turn (unless it gets FOWed... noooooooo) for bringing an underground sea -> duress/tutor/brainstorm, or later to fetch an orchard... I replaced Rushing River to Sb in favor to Crop.
3- Lat-Nam's Legacy... Well, I haven't tested it yet (I can't find a slot for it). It seems a nice card, and has a huge utility (drawing, returning) in this deck. I'll save it for later.
4- I didn't get the all-mighty-stifle thing... It just doesn’t fit in my metagame (nor any other). I used to play with one in Sb just in case a Stasis showed up.
5- There are two different unpowered oath:
5.1- The UBG one (THIS)
5.2- The Pseudo MBC
Either you play with one or you play with the other; I choose to play with UBG, so I will not transform it step by step until it becomes a MB.

By the way, it's eXistenZe (don't you watch some decent movies?)...


1) I agree that duress is better in oath than StP.  I didn't think that StP was a highly played card in oath though.  It seems to me that you are playing the most badass creatures in the game and need them to have a creature to get it out.  Duress wins hands down.
2) I'm glad you have added Crop Rotation, it's a green bomb that should be added to any deck that can support it. 
3) I think that Brainstorm is all around a better card for fixing your hands.  Since you are playing a 3 color version you are playing at least four fetchlands.  Brainstorm works great with fetchies and vice versa.  I think the next best minisearch card is Impulse, although it doesn't fix your hand it makes it better. 
4) Have you tested Stifle?  I have found it an absolute bomb.  If it doesn't work in your meta than I'm not sure what you are seeing.  The thing I like about Oath is its ability to keep cards off the table via counters and strip effects.  The Stifle fits into both of these categories.  It stuffs Dragon, Storm, Welders, Fetchies, and many more.  There are numerous games in which I will draw a Stifle, Wasteland, Forbidden Orchard, Oath, Land, FoW, and another card.  The game ends with me having a couple land, Akroma, and Oath and they have a Spirit Token and that's it.  I use the Stifle as a conditional counter and a Fetchland destroyer.  It's usefull against many decks and it's cheap.  If you can't find room for it MD because of your meta or whatever try it in your sideboard and use it in specific matchups.
5) Discussed above.

And yes I watch decent movies.  I happen to be a local film critique in a small town.  I haven't seen Existanz, I know vaguely what it's about.  I tend to critique new flicks but sometimes rentals. 
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« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2006, 05:43:05 pm »

Stated a few changes discussed above in main topic.

[edited]
I'm thinking about the following possibilities:
- Replacing 1 Wasteland with the second Island
- Playing with Lat-Nam's Legacy (I have no idea in wich slot)
- Keeping Deed or not in Mb (one thing is sure, I need a good backup in Mb for Med Mage and other stuff)
« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 07:52:45 am by eXistenZe » Logged
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« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2006, 04:04:13 am »

I suggest you to try such decklist:

Artifacts
1 Chrome Mox
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Enchantments
1 Fastbond
4 Oath Of Druids

Instants
4 Brainstorm
1 Crop Rotation
4 Force Of Will
4 Impulse
2 Lat-Nam`s Legacy
4 Mana Leak
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Rushing River
1 Vampiric Tutor

Legendary Creatures
1 Akroma, Angel Of Wrath
1 Razia, Boros Archangel

Sorceries
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Duress
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Life from a Loam (not sure...)

Basic Lands
2 Island

Lands
2 City Of Brass
2 Flooded Strand
4 Forbidden Orchard
2 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

A card to consider : Lim-Dul's Vault

edited.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2006, 07:50:36 am by frontier » Logged
Harlequin
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« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2006, 07:42:34 am »

Woah, Careful with that creature based mana.
Elvish Spirit guides will muck up your ability to oath in a fat angel.

if you want some unpowered mana, there are few places you can get it. 
Carpet of Flowers - nice if your in a blue heavy meta
Chromatic Sphere - Cantripping Mana Fixer
Fastbond - Not to bad for first few turn accelleration
Life from the Loam + Fastbond - Wins mirror match!
 
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« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2006, 07:51:46 am »

Elvish Spirit guides will muck up your ability to oath in a fat angel.

Stupid me. Just thought what cheap mana acceleration we have and made a possible include. Edited decklist: look above.
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« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2006, 11:46:44 am »

Do not edit your list without stating the changes. I presume you had ESGuide, which would ruin my 2nd/3rd turn 6/x haste flying beast.

As for the other suggestions:
- Carpet of flowers as no place in Sb. It is already oversold.
- Chromatic Sphere is a turn 1 and 2 slot placer, and this deck already has 4 bstorm, 4 duress, 4 Impulse, 4 oath, 4 counterspells, 3 tutors, etc. It would simply get stuck in my hand.
- Fastbond is a turn 1 or 2 mana bonus giver. This could be good, if it wasn't restricted (Ok, restriction is not an excuse not to play a card, but in this case it may be). In some versions it is useful with crucible (+ stripmine = WOW).
- Life from the loam is a very "green" card... I haven't tested it yet, nor have I seen it in other t1 matches... I'll add it to my "to test" list. Has anyone already tested it? If so could you give me some conclusions?
- Mystical tutor is crap in oath. How will you even play it? Tutor + brainstorm for one instant?? Or EOT tutor->fow?
- Lim-Dul's Vault follows the rule: not playable before oath, useless after oath. The first and second turn are the key for a safe oath spell and I will not waste my little mana sources for a small chance to improve my next draw quality.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2006, 05:12:17 pm by eXistenZe » Logged
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« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2006, 09:45:22 am »

Quote
Lim-Dul's Vault follows the rule: not playable before oath, useless after oath. The first and second turn are the key for a safe oath spell and I will not waste my little mana sources for a small chance to improve my next draw quality.

While this is true, there is another truth about Oath: it is horribly inconsistent.  You don't always get Oath turns 1 and 2. 

From the perspective of having Oath in your hand, there are 2 options:

1) You do not have Oath in your hand/playable in the first 2 turns.   If this is the case, what is wrong with Lim-dul's vault?  Honestly, I haven't play tested it yet, but I've talked to people who have and who love it.    You are dismissing it because you don't want to improve draw quality at the expense of missing an Oath drop.  If you don't have Oath, then you need to improve draw quality.  If you do have Oath....see 2)

2) You do have Oath in hand and playable by turn 2.  So you play it, either turn 1, or turn 2.  Now, your argument is that its a dead card because its  not needed.  Guess what, at this point, all that is needed are your 2 creatures and a tad bit of countermagic. If you have that, you win rather quickly and the other 50 cards in your deck are dead. 

I'm not going to advocate that vault belongs in your deck. But based on what I've heard about its effectiveness, I would recommend that actually do play test with it. The reasons you have for not using are are simply invalid.
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eXistenZe
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« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2006, 07:35:16 pm »

Quote
While this is true, there is another truth about Oath: it is horribly inconsistent.  You don't always get Oath turns 1 and 2.

The fact that I don't always have an oath in my opening hand nor my first draws makes my deck inconsistent? Right...

LDVault is overwhelmed by every single other card in the deck... (ok, maybe not Deed, but it has other purposes)
If the ability had a "Draw a card" in the ending I would say it's an excellent card. But has it is, a brainstorm is far useful... and so is impulse... and maybe Lat-Nam's Legacy... (the "draw" factor gives an enormous advantage in control).

When I already have an oath in the table I won't use a Vault... Know why? Cause my library will be always shuffling to reload my counters and draw sources, as well as bringing my flyers.
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« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2006, 09:01:26 pm »

Quote

The fact that I don't always have an oath in my opening hand nor my first draws makes my deck inconsistent? Right...

Not 'your deck' per se. Just Oath in general. Oath suffers from 2 main drawbacks:
1) Its inconsistent
B) Its win condition is fragile

Simple fact of the deck from somebody who's been playing it for over a year now.

Quote
LDVault is overwhelmed by every single other card in the deck... (ok, maybe not Deed, but it has other purposes)
If the ability had a "Draw a card" in the ending I would say it's an excellent card. But has it is, a brainstorm is far useful... and so is impulse... and maybe Lat-Nam's Legacy... (the "draw" factor gives an enormous advantage in control).

Yes, brainstorm is more useful because it puts creatures from your hand back in your library and it only costs U as opposed to BU.  But if you have space/need for card draw left and you are running black, vault is exactly what you want in Oath.

Most Oath builds are leaving mana open each turn. If you don't use that mana for a counter, which would you rather do - 1U to look at the top 4 cards, keep 1 and put the rest on the bottom  or UB - look at 5 cards, if you don't see what you want, look at the next 5 cards and when you find what you want, stack your next 5 draws?

Quote
When I already have an oath in the table I won't use a Vault... Know why? Cause my library will be always shuffling to reload my counters and draw sources, as well as bringing my flyers.

1) As I already said, if Oath is on the table, a handful of counters and your creatures are the only truly non-dead cards in your deck.  I already know you wouldn't use Vault. I flat out said the purpose of vault is to help you when you do stall out and its dead when you don't.

II) I don't believe you really understand an Oath deck yet if you are making this comment.  You will not 'always be shuffling to reload counters and draw sources." You will be winning or losing. You either win within 2-3 turns. Or you lose because your opponent had StpS w/ force back up.  There is no 'always' about it. You'll get 1, maybe 2 reshuffles and 2 draws after Oath goes off.

If you are running black and you have room for library manipulation, test out vault before dismissing it. If you find you don't like it, fine. But you are doing yourself a disservice by ignoring it. If you really want to do that, fine. Go ahead.
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« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2006, 07:08:09 am »

Whatever... My opinion about LDVault is stated and I will not argue it again.
If you think it's worth a slot in oath, fine, play it... I won't.
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« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2006, 06:17:17 pm »

Next set of cards to be tested:

Yawgmoth's Will
Arcane Laboratory (Sb)

Creatures:
Razia, Boros Archangel (Spirit out)
Pristine Angel (sb)
or Iridescent Angel (Sb)

Right now I have 2 LnLegacy in Sb and 0 Tormod's Crypt (I am still unsure which one will stay).
I'm cutting 1 stp from Sb. This wil leave one slot for testing 1 blessing - 1 YWill (Mb<->Sb).
As I only want 1 creature in Sb, I'm testing these angels as an alternative to colossus.

[edit1]
YWill just sucks... The only way it got useful was with 3 creatures Mb and a single blessing. Even so I didn't like it that much (ok, it's fun at later turns so that opponents don't even see those fow coming).
Razia is way better than spirit otn... Not only it deals 6 damage as it can either block next turn and/or redirect damage to an opponent’s creature...
That's all for now. (I know, I'm kinda lazy...)
[/edit1]
« Last Edit: March 29, 2006, 05:27:40 pm by eXistenZe » Logged
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