G/W beats||control vintage

[Vandel]

It would appear a mod locked my post.  , I think I will use as few words as possible this time so the spelling police don't close me down. Need help and reviews, and good ideas. Thanks in advance.

//Creatures (25)

3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Kami of Ancient Law
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Watchwolf
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Viridian Shaman

4 Elvish Spirit Guide

//Potential creatures (4)

4 Hidden Herd

//Hate (13)

4 Root Mazes
3 Suppression fields
2 Null Rod
4 Swords to plowshards

//Mana! (18)

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
4 Savannas
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
4 Plains

SB

1 Null Rod
3 Choke
3 Ground Seals
2 Oxidize
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Karakas
2 naturalize

Stax - Main reason for viridian shamans main, altough still going to be a very rough match for me if they resolve a chalice and i cant resolve my Kataki. Suprresion fields are very strong against this deck but i feel i may get overpowered. Board options: oxidize, naturalize, ground seal, null rod.

Oath- Oath is a likely loss first game, even tough i run main deck STP, kamis and root mazes since i usually draw 1 of these in a given game and it is quickly answered by a counter. Board in 2 ray of revelation, 2 naturalizes , 2 Karakas(MVP?) and possibly chockes/ground seal depending on the version.

Dragon- This deck is very easy to beat for the deck i have as STPs and kamis both respond to their main win. Board in RAYS, groud Seals and naturalizes.

Slaver Control- Against my very limited testing versus this deck it appears that an early drop usually out races their counters and i should have no problem. Katakis, suppresion fields, and root maze do wonders. Side Board: CHOKE, Null rod, ground seal.

Fish - Try to resolve beats. Board into choke to win after sideboarding.

Other beatdown decks- (zoo, bird shit, rg. beats, zombie, tog) Supression field does pretty well against most of these decks and so do STPs. Try to race beats and board into Karakas.

Main Questions i have

Is the sideboard correct?
Should i be playing any very obvious cards that i am missing?
What changes would make the deck better?
Is there any matchup for wich i should be better prepared?
Do I need wastlands/strip mine?

[Jacob Orlove]

Please read rule #4, lack of content: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=18027.msg299973#msg299973

I won't close this yet, because it's a definite improvement, but if more content isn't added, I'll have to close it at some point. Consider talking about what cards are available to you, what your metagame looks like, what the strengths and weaknesses of the deck are, what your matchups are against the top archetypes, how you sideboard, etc. You don't need to cover everything, but consider the questions you want people to answer, and what information they'll need to answer them.

[ozimek]

Main Questions i have[/b]

Is there any match up for wich i should be better prepared?
Is the sideboard correct?

I guess combo is your worst match up? You have almost nothing to board in against combo. The extra Null Rod is the only option I see. Apart from Root Maze, the only anti-combo options in G/W I can think of are:
 - Rule of Law. It may be too slow with a casting cost of 2W
 - Orim's Chant. Casting Orim's Chant in response to Duress is fairly solid vs. Storm Combo, and will often buy you a round at least.
 - True Believer. It's a beater and a hoser in one. Protects vs. Gifts, Duress, Tendrills etc. Actually I think you should run this maindeck. More on this below.

Karakas is a poor option vs. Oath, as they can just waste it. You would need Sacred Ground to solve this problem, and it is huge against Stax too. Still, I think I would prefer 2 extra Ray of Revalation as Karakas and Sacred Ground just seems a bit too cute.

Should i be playing any very obvious cards that i am missing?
What changes would make the deck better?

Generally for aggro creatures in Vintage, a good body for the mana cost is less important than a good hosing ability.

Therefore I don't think creatures like Watch Wolf, Isamaru, and Skyshroud Elite are viable without a blue counter base to disrupt your opponent while they do the beating. I think you need to look for more creatures that can also help slowing or stopping you opponents game plan.

 - True Believer as mentioned above.

 - Weathered Wayfarer can help you run a chain of Strip-effects. It does have some anti-synergy with Root Maze and Suppression Field though.

I can't think of any other good creatures right now, but I'm sure there must be some.

Other cards to consider are:
 - Aura Shards. Maybe it's too slow, but if it resolves (and you live to your next turn), it should be a house against Workshop decks and Control Slaver.

 - Life from the Loam. Allows you to recur Wastelands and Fetchlands. Again it may be too slow.

Do I need wastlands/strip mine?

Yes, definitely. Again disruption is key for aggro.

Most of my suggestions are based on the principle of maximizing disruptive impact of your threats. I may have underestimated the disruptive power of your combination of Rooz Maze, Suppression Field and Null Rod. Do you generally find that it is enough, or are you often raced by Tinker+Colossus or some other combo? (As I suspect)

/Jan

[Nastaboi]

You should have no problem beating Stax when going first. Just fetch some basics, resolve some beats and kill them before they get Smokestack online. Shamans are kinda slow, prefer faster beaters.

Jungle and Savannah Lion are both better than Elite, because they are unconditional. If you tweak your manabase a little, you could run True Believer as an anti-combo, anti-gifts weapon.

And consider Pithing Needle SB instead of Ground Seal, I have found it has more uses than Seal in various matcups.

[Harlequin]

Jungle and Savannah Lion are both better than Elite, because they are unconditional.

Elites are ok if you consider darkblast. 

I like the supression fields, I have so wanted that card to be played in T1, but I just cant get the rest of the deck to work around it. 
If your dedictated to Supression field I would say to avoid wasteland and stripemine, you might want to back off on fetchlands too.  Also up your null rod count and lower your root maze count.  This will give you some fantastic make early-mid game mana denial that cannot be pithing needled down.  I would also say you probably want the king daddy of all triggered draw/selection: Sylvan Library.  Cutting down a few creatures for this card will give you the chance to dig deep and grip answers.  Also, long story short,Uba Mask (from your opponent) + Sylvan Library = draw 3 cards (put none back pay no life) each turn.  So this card will dramtically improve your game against an uba mask.

[Mat]

What about Thornscape Apprentice vs tinker --> colossus?

[Vandel]

edit: tested wayfears to slow

[Guli]

What can green offer to a white weeni? Yes most fish are simply white weeni with blue splash or black splash or even all 3.

Elite sounds good but it with 5 strip effects i don't know. A lot deck fetch for basic lands early turns making the elite weak.

I would use Rancorx4 it is good against stax and control. It adds a lot speed to the deck. (tempo gaining)

Kataki seems like a must cause you have no acces to Meddling Mage/Dark Confidant/Withered Wretch. So you really want to go for the mana denial strategy.

4 Null Rod
4 Kataki
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Root Maze

4 True Believer (the only other creature that will actually disrupt the opponent gameplan!)

4 Rancor
4 Swords to plowshares

What about Thornscape Apprentice vs tinker --> colossus?

The blue apprentice is used in W/U but that is because it also uses force of will. It can be pitched. In this deck i don't think it would be wise. Green and White are both good colors to get rid if Artifact/enchantements. I would like to see some Oxidize in this deck! It can be a counter against tinker.

2 Oxidize (also good to kill artifact mana)
2 Seal of cleansing

So 4 extra cards to get rid of nasty artifacts.

You might want to add Orim's Chant in this deck. it can server as a time walk and stop a resolving Will.

For now these are my first thoughts. I will follow this threat and try to contribute more later.

[Vandel]

you make some valid points but root maze is a pretty important card in this deck and one i dont think will be possible to cut down to 3. ONe of the sol reasons i am palying green.

[Harlequin]

Let me also jump in and say that seal of cleanings + Surpression field = bad synergy. 
If you need that level of destruction go with disenchant.

[never]

You might want to think about whether or not Weathered wayfarer is a good inclusion. He is quite slow and you'll probably want to be spending your available mana on something else.

I remember people originally including him in versions of WW that ran vials, because vial let you do more with your mana since you didn't need it to cast your creatures. But even then, he never seemed to stand out.

I feel like Lions or Elites would be a better one drop in that slot. That or you could cut your creature count a bit and run more utility cards like disenchat, oxidize, orim' chant, or even rancor.

[Guli]

yea disenchant is better but i never said surpression field should be added. You really wanna waste/strip and fetch basic lands early turn. However the field isn't gonna hit the table that soon anyway. I must admit the field is kinda cute combined with mana denial! Remember with null rod on the board with kataki you also need a mana to keep null rod alive. And if u wanna strip/waste (wich is needed if u wanna keep the pressure up) you might face some problems with field yourself. But maybe that is not a BIG concern, you could play around it but still remember it could also be counterproductive.

[Harlequin]

I Think The Supression field is key to this deck being remotely playable.  I would say If you want to get the most bang for your buck on mana denial  go...
3 Supression Field
3 Null Rod
3 Root maze

This hardcore hates on fetchlands.  Now add in your main deck Kataki, and your opponent Basically cant do anything but let thier moxen die.  Adding Waste/Strip adds almost nothing to this your opponent will spend 3 turns a life and 2 other land taps to get a non-basic into play, wasteland at that point is nearly worthless.  There is such a thing as too much mana hate.  I would stay away from fetchlands, wastelands, and seals all together so your Supression field is a meta-hoser as opposed to a situational card.  If you really feal you need the extra land/hate do it though non-activated means.  If your going to spend a land drop, a turn, and 2 mana to clear one non-basic - you might as well just run Armaggedon.

Too many deck are ready with many maindeck basic lands backed by a nearly 1-to-1 for fetches to fetch targets, Crucible/wasteland is not the ultimate lock-out it once was.  If you feel you need added protection for your own lands that would be gained by crucible - I would definately go the way of sacrede ground instead, as mentioned before.  This card is absolutely ridiculous for simply winning against stax. 


If your scrapping the idea of Supression field and going with wayfayers I would HIGHLY suggest maindecking
4 Wayfayers
3-4 Abolish
--- coupled with
2-3 Sylvan Lib
1-2 Zuran Orb
1  fastbond
1-3 crucible
1 enlightend tutor
5 waste/strip
1-2 Karakas and/or Maze of Ith


It adds a "turboland" type feature to your deck.  Its a ton of cards but It gives you an edge against Shop decks and It gives you the ability go "ooops I gain infite life & mana."

[Guli]

Just go with 4    Suppression Field i say if you really need it to make the deck competetive.

And to make it effective you need mana denial. Armageddon (the white nether void) can be a strong card in this kinda deck. I know in type 1 armageddon is kinda weak with all the artifact mana. However with a cards like Null Rod and Suppression Field it can become good again?

[Lymph]

I tried a deck like this a couple of months ago. Here are some thoughts:

As said before your fetchlands have terrible synergy with Root Maze and Suppression Field. Did you try out Land Grant? It basically has the same function, the only downside is that they can be countered. If you add them it might be a good idea to add a couple of Temple Gardens so you always have access to white mana. The lifeloss doesn't matter and most of the time you will have a Root Maze on the board anyway.

Please cut the Wayfarers. It cost too much mana with Suppression Field and it only beats for 1. Try to have a minimum of activated abilities in your deck. The only ones that I would include are the Wastelands and Strip Mine.

You also need something to speed up your clock. I'm no big fan of creature enchantments (or Auras like they are called nowadays, God knows why) but Rancor might be good. Wild Mongrel may be good as well especially when you have dead lock parts in your hand (Null Rod #2, Root Maze #2).
With the amount of fetches run in most decks you could try out Ankh of Mishra. With Kataki's & Null Rod you pretty much take out their artifact mana so they have to keep dropping land and take 2 damage a turn (or 5 in case of a fetch). This might help killing them in time before they can recover because they will.

Enlightened Tutor may be nice to tutor up any of your lock parts. But I don't know if its really worth it. It may just be better to just draw another threat instead.

[Vandel]

//Creatures (21)

3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Kami of Ancient Law
4 Watchwolf
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Viridian Shaman

4 Elvish Spirit Guide

//Potential creatures (4)

4 Hidden Herd

//Hate (14)

4 Root Mazes
3 Suppression fields
3 Null Rod
4 Swords to plowshards

//Mana! (21)

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
4 Savannas
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
3 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

SB

1 Null Rod
3 Choke
2 Ground Seals
2 Naturalize
2 Oxidize
3 Ray of Revelation
2 Karakas

[pyr0ma5ta]

Rancor is amazing against Smokestack.  And it helps you win faster.  I'd suggest trying it out, although honestly I don't have high hopes for this pile.  Hidden Gibbons and Hidden Guerillas are key.

Good luck.

[Harlequin]

From the "new" decklist, It looks like all you did was take out the skyshrouds for some extra mana/wastelands?

Rather than post slightly updated list, you might get a better response from the community if you addressed some of the comments.  Alot of good ideas are being thrown around, and clearly you can only fit a few of these ideas into a 60 card deck.

Any thoughts on Sylvan Library?
Any thoughts on a more conventional 0 Supression field -> 4 Wild mongrels
Any thoughts on Ankh?
Any thoughts on wasteland/strip and its anti-synergy with supression field?
Any thoughts on Land grand as compared to fetchlands in light of supression field? (wich I thought was an excellent suggestion -props:Lymph)

This is your deck, and the TMD community is more than happy to help you develope your ideas.  If you are serious about the deck, you need to test it and respond with more than just a list of cards.  If you keep the conversation alive then you'll get more and more ideas, more and more members chimeing in with comments.

[Vandel]

Ya i noticed it too when going over the list of suggestion and the deck that i had . But i havent had much time to test so i could only change some of the more obvious suggestions that required less testing.

I have tought about replacing supression fields, however i cant decide for what?

The anhks are a good idea but im not sure about its anti synergy with kataki and my decire to wasteland. If i played the land grants and added in 1 temple garden to avoid root maze it could just work out.

What are your toughts on replacing suppresion fields with crucibles and adding in some factories?

Mongrels are good but in most cases will be worst for me then watchwolfs which is also on the verge of being cut.

I believe that sylvan library will be too slow altough it is very good agisnt uba stax, a deck i dont believe i should have problems with.

Land grant is a great idea but i fear that against certain decks it may give to much of a tell(oath and Long etc. control slaver).

Im pretty sure i will be adding a single temple garden to the decklist regardless of any other changes. And may be removing something for 2 rancors.

Also i have tested the True believer and found the double white hard to play, but it looks like green is slowly being weeded out so it may become easier.

[Guli]

If you ask me suppression field with mana denial is a good disruption. If the only cards that will be wasteland/strip that doesn't work well with the S.Field then don't tcut them so easily!

You could play something like this (no list just some cards)

Isamaru,
Birds of paradise
Xantid Swarm
Rancor
Swords to plowshares
Werebear
Kataki, W
Null Rod
Suppression Field
Life from the loam
land grant
Ray of revelation
Armageddon

[Harlequin]

my response to your arguement against Sylvan and Land grant is the same...

Your decks a grand total of 4 instants.  Wich is not a problem for the deck, but you have to realise what your tempo is - Inital disadvantage for longterm advantage.  Thus is the nature of roots, Kitaki, Supression field, Hidden soandso... That is your tempo.  Its not a bad tempo, Its the same type of tempo that basically all fish, Agro, and to a lesser extent stax have.  Initial loss of tempo, for overall gain.  Sylvan Library falls dirrectly into that niche.  First turn land -> ESG -> Lib - Go, is going to give you longterm, highly stable, Supression Field free ... advantage for the rest of the game.
And none of those cards nessiarily ever catch your opponent 100% off guard, its not you can drop Supression Field at instant speed... this gives them ample time to  play some EOT effects that they would want to do before Supression Field is affecting thier turn... for example.  The same is true for any creature, they have a full turn before you can attack with said creature.  Reveiling your hand is not really that bad for you, Your opponent (playing oath) wasn't going to counter watchwolf anyway, they are saveing countermagic for Swords. 
The drawback of land grant is that they get to see how badly you need a land if you infact need a land badly.  Then they can choose to counter landgrant.  It basically means, that you must have an accute sense of when to mulligan, don't keep hands that only have landgrant in mulitples.  At be sure you can stablize yourself with a "real" land before you decide to keep a hand.   
Land grant aslo is a shuffle effect wich will add potency to the library.
A Card like Xantid Swarm or (to a lesser extent - City of solitude or that 'name, falling leaf' Monk) Could add the extra support you need to be sure your land grants are resolving.  Showing them your hand doesn't really help them if they can not respond to it. 

[Vandel]

land grant has severe problems

say i need a green or white and i have a wastland and lanf grant in hand i must wait to play threats.

say i need get duressed/countered etc my whole game could go out the window cause i dint want to play somethign so simple.

[Harlequin]

I honestly dont think the deck should run 4 wastelands.  I think 1 stripmine and thats it.  This is assumeing you are commiting to supression field.

[Vandel]

hehe i tough i already concluided a few post ago those were being cutsauced(supression)

[Harlequin]

Oh, my bad.  If thats the case then I would definatly run Man lands(Factories), wastelands, fetchlands.  And you'd probably want to cut Rootmaze at the point.  At wich point your more or less "bad White weenie."   You might want to look into some WGU decks ... something like Bird S**t or WGU Threshold.  You'd probably have better sucess with a deck like that.  Or at least you could barrow some tech from those types of decks.  Life + Wild mongrel is not that bad of a mini-combo for stable damage.

I think the deck gained alot from the supression field, but maybe it just isn't good enough for T1 play.  I have yet to see a deck list that can run it effectively and not end up numbing out the cards that make it sucessful.

[Guli]

First attempt:

4 Kataki
4 True believer
4 Root Maze
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Werebear
4 Swords to plowshares

3 Null Rod
3 Suppression Field
3 Armageddon

2 Ray of revelation
2 Oxidize

4 Savannah
4 Forest
4 Plains
3 Temple Garden

4 Land grant

[Vandel]

did u test this or am supposed to hehe im not sure wat to do :S

[Guli]

its a raw example of what i have in mind. i am testing it soon.

[vroman]

werebear is unplayable wo blue cards or bazaar to quickly fill yard. Samurai Pale Curtain is somewhat disruptive v welder and/or crucible decks. there is zero reason to play xantid swarm in non-combo. aggro deck should outpace control by drawing more threats than their counters, not by playing a non-threat that turns off counterspells. birds is also useless here. waiting a turn to load mana accel is pathetic tempo. up 4x null, 4x s-field. more guys. maybe Glowrider.
play full moxen! you have enough [1X] cost spells to justify the extra free colorless sources. no temple gardens for chrisake. 4xGW-fetch instead. wasteland is infinitely better than land grant. lifeloam is not a bad idea for mana accel, disruption, and allows werebear, via dredging up to threshold. remember kataki is legendary. armagedon is iunexpected bomb, but probably will never resolve. worth testing.

so try this
3 kataki
3 lifeloam
4 true believer
4 werebear
4 rootmaze
4 supresion field
4 armageddon
4 null rod
2 glowrider
2 ray revelation
4 waste
4 fetch
4 savanah
5 mox
1 black lotus
4 forest
4 plains

GWgeddon attack.

[Guli]

Without a draw engine it is crucial that the threats resolve. Xantid Swarm is anti-control and i really think this deck needs it. An oath player will think twice to play the oath if a Swarm is on the board. The BOP are good in any Armageddon deck. I think replacing Werebear is a good call though. I forgot about the Samurai! That guy is seriously good in this deck.

Lets say

-1 Kataki
-4 Werebear
-2 Oxidize (move to SB would be better)

+4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
+1 Suppression Field
+2 Glowrider (cute)

2 Glowrider
3 Kataki
4 True believer
4 Root Maze
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 Swords to plowshares

3 Null Rod
4 Suppression Field
3 Armageddon

2 Ray of revelation

I am not touching the mana base yet but white sources should dominate. Please make suggestions for the correct mana base. If you ask me i would't use wasteland or fetch cause a lot card work against it= Root Maze, S Field