The Fundamental Nature of Stax: Uba Stax vs. 5c Chang Stax

[Komatteru]

Gone as part of a taking back all the content I contributed.

[benthetenor]

The weaknesses in Uba Stax that have been present, and are in fact a large part of the fundamental design, have only been magnified by the desire of some to twist the deck into it's "current" mega-lock loadout. As a result, the strategy is not so very powerful (which is very evident with it being even more dependant on winning the die roll than even any other Stax deck), but the individual, powerful locks (not to mention stupidly powerful synergies) coalesce in such a ridiculous way that there is often no need to do anything but to further lock out the opponent and eventually deal with anything that's slipped past the initial locks. This is partially why Oath is such a flip-flop of a match-up: not because it wins on the first turn or anything, but rather because it can deploy a potent threat in the first or second turn, the turns where Uba Stax is desperately trying to establish complete control, making Uba Stax rush to find an answer. The fact that there has been a need to drop actual answers like Duplicant in favor of more lock cards has worried me, as it appears it's worried you.

This is ultimately why something like Tangle Wire is a bad choice. As you've said, Uba Stax is not interested in maintaining a short-lived tempo boost, which is ultimately what Tangle Wire is and which is why Vroman initially left Tangle Wires out of all but his latest builds. He has claimed to like them, something which I can admit I've only tested very minimally, but the fact is that I believe that Uba Stax quite simply has no room for frivolous cards like Tangle Wire. I'd much prefer to see actual answers in the slot rather than cards that manufacture tempo. It has a place in Chang Stax and in Morrison's build simply because those builds are more tempo-centric. In place of tempo cards and colored bombs, Uba Stax has brutal disruption like Null Rod and Uba Mask. Once again, neither is better than the other, but the differences must be realized if the deck is to be tuned properly, not to mention played properly.

Also, this is definitely not directed toward Vroman, as he's more than aware of the facts, but rather toward those who would take Vroman's cautious testing ideas which can (and do) change as dogma and proclaim the revolution of the archetype. If you truly understood how the deck functions, then you would test more than you would talk. The lists that Vroman's won with have both been relatively traditional in relation to the lists that were running around our test beds, simply because Vroman said that he preferred the more consistant to the more erratic but explosive.

And before you jump to conclusions, the current lists aren't necessarily wrong. Just realize that radical changes in this particular archetype have been the exception, not the rule.

[sean1i0]

Since, as you've already pointed out, JDizzle, the "end games," so to speak of different stax decks can vary so greatly, I think that the only thing I can "conclusively" say about the nature of stax decks is that these modern prison decks attempt, often successfully, to lock the opponent out of the game long enough to procure a win.  If looked at in that manor, then both Uba Stax and Chang Stax behave in the same way (basically).  While it is true that uba stax attempts to lock out the opponent from the game completely and chang stax only wants them out of the game for a few turns, that makes sense in context to each decks respective win conditions; uba stax just takes a helluva lot longer to win.

To just make a general comment about stax though, I will say that after having played both types, I really am not sure anymore if either one is inherently better than the other.  Initially I played chang stax, with great success mind you, but there was one thing that bugged me about it:  it had no draw engine at that time that I really liked.  It did have tutoring power though, and it's quite possible that I was mis-analyzing the deck.  Anyway though, that is what initially drove me to try out uba stax; I was so thrilled that it had a truly powerful card advantage engine that didn't tax the mana base too much.

Since changing to uba stax, I've had a lot of success with that, too.  Lately I've been doing some testing of my own on the deck just to see if there were a version inherently better than the more conservative one.  Initially I tried out the "megalock" version, but it didn't take me many test sessions at all to realize that it taxes the manabase way too much (IMO).  Recently (a.k.a. the past week or so, whenever time permits), I've been testing out some number of tangle wire in the deck.  In many ways I like the tangle wires, but I have to admit that there is a large piece of me that wants to go back to the old list, the conservative list, so to speak.

I can say something about both the "conservative" uba stax list and the chang stax list though:  I have never had trouble finishing off the opponent once I first few turns of locks were in effect.  I have had that happen in the "megalock" uba list, but not otherwise, even, so far, with "ubawire."

Just my 2 cents.

[meadbert]

There should be a 4th bazaar maindeck.  Also 2 Uba Masks is probably too few.

Uba Mask = Drawing counter spells is pointless.
Tanglewire + Uba Mask = they lose draws
Uba Mask + Bazaar = you get three draws each turn
Uba Mask + Welder = They lose half their draws
Uba Mask + 2 Welder = They lose all their draws
2 Uba Mask + 1 Welder = They lose all their draws

Even without Uba Mask Bazaar is great.
Bazaar allows you to toss out cards that are chaliced out and replace them with new ones.
With a Crucible, bazaar allows you to pitch your lands and draw new cards.

[Evenpence]

I feel that the philosophies between Changstax and Ubastax are completely different, and I think you hit the nail on the head when you said:

Should it become, as I suggest Roland has taken the deck, a deck more focused on disrupting in various ways, using that disruption to resolve a bomb, even though the opponent is not really locked out of the game (just quite limited in what he can do)?  Or should it be trying to do what MegaLock Uba Stax is trying to do: lock opponent out completely first, then figure out how to win?

The decks are currently trying to do different things.

I strongly disagree with you, however, on two points:
1)  Cutting a Bazaar for a Sphere in any possible metagame.  I can't imagine why cutting off 25% of your draw engine would be useful.
2)  Tangle Wire not being good in Ubastax.  Tangle Wire is absolutely broken with A) shaman B) ramped stax C) trinisphere.  Tangle Wire is used for:  A) Forcing threats through drains B) tapping out aggro, so it functions like an answer C) mopping up enemy mana and threats on the draw to get yourself rolling.

With the philosophy of "Let's put them on lock down so they can't do anything" Tangle Wire accomplishes many of the problems which Sphere sometimes only adds to.

I have NEVER, and I will repeat NEVER have been sorry to see Tangle Wire in my hand.  It's good in nearly every instance, and can be particularly game-breaking even in your opening hand on the play, as you can think many turns ahead to decide if you want to keep it.  I have kept some opening hands simply because of Tangle Wire, and exceptionally on the draw.  When I am on the draw, the two-card combination I want to see most is workshop-tangle wire.  It gives me a double time walk much like Trinisphere, and makes my opponent not have drain mana for those turns, where I can play multiple artifact threats (locks).

It can replace Shaman completely (which is why I considered adding it in), or can work very well with him (my current build).  Wires can replace Spheres or work well with them (something I see you've done).

Duplicant serves as an answer in the deck to problems, which is why I hesitate dropping below 2.  Ubastax has problems when a threat hits the board, but these 'problems' are almost exclusively creatures.  Artifact-hating Enchantments are about the only thing that Duplicant cannot be an answer for with regard to 'what wrecks Ubastax?'

Ubastax's goal is to heavily disrupt right off the bat (Tangle Wire helps specifically with this) and then play game-breaking locks.  Vroman has ushered in the change, wanting to go up to 4.  I agree with him completely.

We're no where near done with this deck, however, and will continue to make changes.  Yesphuryen has a new configuration of lock pieces with which I'm trying out soon and will get back to him on the results.

I think there are alot of problems with the build that you've tried, which might explain some of your complaints about Ubastax.

EDIT:  Changstax is damn good, btw, I just can't comment on it as much as I can on Ubastax, as I haven't played his deck for any serious amount of time.  The philosophy, however, is different, as Changstax doesn't need a hard lock to win.

I think the fundamental nature of Stax is encompassed in Chang's 5c Build.  Disrupt so you can win, and win before they get their game back.  Ubastax's nature is different:  Hard lock wins it.  I completely differentiate them as completely separate decks, as their goals are different.  However, they are under the same archetype, which holds the name of it's most powerful card:  Smokestack.  Smokestack's abilities and design are really what any Stax deck should be crafted around.  While Chang has win conditions like Karn, our win condition is Smokestack itself. 

[Jacob Orlove]

When Stax debuted, it's goal was very much to make it so that the opponent never played a spell -- or at least one of any relevance whatsoever.  This feat was not really all that hard to accomplish with 4 Trinispheres and decks then being much slower than they are now (with more vulnerability to cards like Wasteland).

You're actually glossing over much of the early development of Stax, from the explosive Meditate builds to the Metalworker based Mud and Welder Mud lists. It was only with the printing of Crucible (NOT Trinisphere) that modern Stax as we know it became possible.

[Evenpence]

You're actually glossing over much of the early development of Stax, from the explosive Meditate builds to the Metalworker based Mud and Welder Mud lists. It was only with the printing of Crucible (NOT Trinisphere) that modern Stax as we know it became possible.

True dat.  Welder MUD was quite possibly the funnest deck in all of existence to play.

[Hydra]

Personally I'm a supporter of the more Chang/Morrison style builds.  When I play the deck, I play a more Morrisonesque build that puts an opponent under a couple of locks to buy time until you can resolve the bomb, be it Balance/Tinker/Strip Lock/etc.

I was the opponent that JDizzle mentions sepcifically in his initial post, and quite frankly I won because he was overloaded with lock pieces.  At one point in game one he had down Null Rod, Sphere of Resistance, Tangle Wire AND Crucible/Wasteland and I still won through because he had absolutely no clock.  I just sat around, playing basic lands until I had Rebuild, used Rebuild so I could resolve some spells, then an Echoing Truth a few turns later to remove the Null Rod again for Tinker/Colossus to come online and end the game.

Personally, I feel that Tangle Wire just doesn't do enough in the deck without Welder recursion going.  All it ever seems to do in games I've played/watched is force both players to play draw-go for 2-3 turns before one of them draws into something good, and usually it's not the Stax player.  For other people it could be different, but I personally have never seen a Tangle Wire be a difference maker against a good player, since all you're really doing in most matchups is denying them mana on your turn for a couple of turns, where as other lock cards such as Chalice and Sphere of Resistance flat out deny them spells, which I feel is vastly superior if you're trying to set up a lock.

[Moxlotus]

I've always felt Stax with enchantments, like Cron and Morrison run, are much better since they don't just lose to Hurkyl's or Rebuild.  Enchantments are bitches to deal with.  All combo or control has to do against Uba Stax is whack off for like infinite turns until it finds basics and bounce.  Then it has an eot/upkeep bounce all your shit, drop nuts, and win.  Stax only beats combo when it has like 4 spheres/chalices/rods in play compared to a single Eye + any lock spell.

[Evenpence]

In the Eye of Chaos is certainly a better lock piece than anything that Ubastax has against rebuild.

However, depending on Enchantment-based locks increases the dependance upon colored mana and makes workshop look useless, especially if you're holding a hand of broken colored spells alongside workshop.  Both are not benefitted by the presence of one another.

[Twaun007]

In Steves article http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10203.html he explains the balance between Artifacts and enchantments. The article might be a little out dated though.

The big thing with stax is that it doesn't win the game right off the bat. The fundemental nature of all stax decks is to slowly choke your opponent out of the game. Every once in a while you draw the nuggets and win with your opening hand, but that is not how the deck is designed to win. Playing stax is a battle of attrition, you have to drop threats and last longer than your opponent in order to come out as the victor.

   

[benthetenor]

In Steves article http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10203.html he explains the balance between Artifacts and enchantments. The article might be a little out dated though.

The big thing with stax is that it doesn't win the game right off the bat. The fundemental nature of all stax decks is to slowly choke your opponent out of the game. Every once in a while you draw the nuggets and win with your opening hand, but that is not how the deck is designed to win. Playing stax is a battle of attrition, you have to drop threats and last longer than your opponent in order to come out as the victor.

I disagree with that. While a slow, steady war of attrition can be the nature of a Stax deck, none of the present incarnations of Stax have a gameplan in tune with that supposed nature. Chang Stax and Morrison Stax have developed a gameplan centered around quick disruption via denial of tempo and big threats to close the deal, whereas Uba Stax's gameplan is to bring about absolutely brutal disruption in the first few turns in order to keep threats off the board, eventually finding answers to any threats that may have slipped through. With either build, there are numerous cases where the game is more or less locked up within the first few turns. It is those times where the Stax deck does not have control of the game where it tends to lose. The fundamental nature of some Stax decks is to slowly choke your opponent out of the game, but none of the currently successful Stax decks employ this strategy as their primary one.

[unicoerner]

I think Hydra is totally right. Tangle Wire sucks most of the time in Uba Stax. Instead of them i will try out Mox Monkey or more dupes and trisks. I would never go beyond 4 bazzars. They are awesom with welder,  Mask and help finding them as well as other lock pieces. This finding is important, because the biggest problem of Uba is, that it often has 2 Crucis, 2 rods clocking around in hand.

[Komatteru]

Remember Jacob, that I only started playing Vintage in June 2004, so I didn't really even see decks besides Keeper and Dragon (what got played at Pandemonium every week) before Fifth Dawn was even legal.  I can't say that I really researched the topic before typing all that up.

Also, read this: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27240.msg406944#msg406944.  It's on Tangle Wire in Uba Stax (not here because it doesn't fit the discussion).

I think the use of Tangle Wire contrasts the differences between RolandStax and UbaStax nicely.  Tangle Wire is a card that buys you immense tempo -- and then you need something to do with it to make it good.  Consider the role that Wasteland plays in Fish. The point of Wasteland is to steal a little tempo from the opponent.  Fish uses that tempo to get some more damage in, and maybe play another dude.

What does Uba Stax do with tempo it gets from Tangle Wire?  Play more stuff, some of which might not do much more than is already out there.  What does RolandStax do with that tempo from Tangle Wire?  It does something ridiculous.  Constraining the opponent with yet more artifacts does not necessarily bring you closer to winning the game.

All it ever seems to do in games I've played/watched is force both players to play draw-go for 2-3 turns before one of them draws into something good, and usually it's not the Stax player.

This captures what Tangle Wire is supposed to do.  When you don't really have cards that flat win you the game, you really can't expect to draw them.  A deck that has MT,VT,DT, and Tinker can reasonably expect to draw one of those cards to play Tinker than a deck that doesn't contain any of those cards.  In 3 turns of Tangle Wire tapping down, Stax has drawn a land, Null rod, and Smokestack, while the opponent has drawn things like Brainstorm, Fetchland, MT/Gifts/whatever.  Big difference there.

Going back to what I was getting at with the Fish example, should Stax use its lock pieces to create tempo and then abuse that tempo, or should be attempting to assemble a full lock?

[MacDad_TN]

I play a stax deck very similar to Roland Chang's list.  My goal in playing the deck has never been to completely lock them down.  Sometimes it just happens, but usually I just try to steal a little bit of tempo from them to drop a bomb.  In most cases, it is very easy to do.  If I happen to lock my opponent out of the game while trying to steal some tempo away from them, it is just a bonus.

I have personally never cared for Uba Stax for most of the reasons that JDizzle has already stated.  I have always prefered a stax style deck like Roland's latest lists.  This is just a personal opinion though.  Both decks are very good, and have finishes under their belt to prove it.

[benthetenor]

Remember Jacob, that I only started playing Vintage in June 2004, so I didn't really even see decks besides Keeper and Dragon (what got played at Pandemonium every week) before Fifth Dawn was even legal.  I can't say that I really researched the topic before typing all that up.

Also, read this: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27240.msg406944#msg406944.  It's on Tangle Wire in Uba Stax (not here because it doesn't fit the discussion).

I think the use of Tangle Wire contrasts the differences between RolandStax and UbaStax nicely.  Tangle Wire is a card that buys you immense tempo -- and then you need something to do with it to make it good.  Consider the role that Wasteland plays in Fish. The point of Wasteland is to steal a little tempo from the opponent.  Fish uses that tempo to get some more damage in, and maybe play another dude.

What does Uba Stax do with tempo it gets from Tangle Wire?  Play more stuff, some of which might not do much more than is already out there.  What does RolandStax do with that tempo from Tangle Wire?  It does something ridiculous.  Constraining the opponent with yet more artifacts does not necessarily bring you closer to winning the game.

All it ever seems to do in games I've played/watched is force both players to play draw-go for 2-3 turns before one of them draws into something good, and usually it's not the Stax player.

This captures what Tangle Wire is supposed to do.  When you don't really have cards that flat win you the game, you really can't expect to draw them.  A deck that has MT,VT,DT, and Tinker can reasonably expect to draw one of those cards to play Tinker than a deck that doesn't contain any of those cards.  In 3 turns of Tangle Wire tapping down, Stax has drawn a land, Null rod, and Smokestack, while the opponent has drawn things like Brainstorm, Fetchland, MT/Gifts/whatever.  Big difference there.

Going back to what I was getting at with the Fish example, should Stax use its lock pieces to create tempo and then abuse that tempo, or should be attempting to assemble a full lock?

I think that it makes more sense to shoot for the full lock, and here's why. When the goal is to achieve complete control of the game, then failing to achieve complete control will still result in significant tempo gains which can either be exploited with a large creature or more non-redundant lock pieces to further strengthen the lock. The problem with the current deck that tries to gain complete control (Uba Stax) is that there are too many redundant lock pieces, making top-decks less spicy and crowding the deck, reducing the number of slots for an alternate game plan. As a result, the newest versions are ultimately less potent than the earlier ones because there is quite simply no pressure to put on an opponent, giving him infinite time to wriggle out. I'd much rather play Solemn Simulacrum than Tangle Wire, because it's nearly impossible to create a gamestate where the opponent has 0 outs, so some sort of pressure is much better than no pressure at all.

That being said, Uba Stax has been able to succeed because it's so very good at gaining complete control of the board, though I think that objectively the lists that were able to have a back-up plan were far more resilient than those that just shoot for locking up the board and killing eventually. Flexibility has always meant strength.

I play a stax deck very similar to Roland Chang's list.  My goal in playing the deck has never been to completely lock them down.  Sometimes it just happens, but usually I just try to steal a little bit of tempo from them to drop a bomb.  In most cases, it is very easy to do.  If I happen to lock my opponent out of the game while trying to steal some tempo away from them, it is just a bonus.

I have personally never cared for Uba Stax for most of the reasons that JDizzle has already stated.  I have always prefered a stax style deck like Roland's latest lists.  This is just a personal opinion though.  Both decks are very good, and have finishes under their belt to prove it.

That makes perfect sense, as Chang Stax is not interested in gaining complete control. It's goal is quite simply to gain an advantage and ride a bomb to victory, which makes sense as that's how you've had success.

[dogleg969]

In my opinion the full-on lockout is what you want to be doing with the deck.  I did play some tempo-oriented cards in some of my latest lists, but this was because of my local meta.  Your Crucible of Worlds and Wasteland aren't that good against decks like Gifts, TPS, and Oath, because they're going to kill you before you spending 3 mana and multiple land drops (Wastelands) means anything.  It was my intention to grab the earliest amount of tempo I could, and use that to develop a degenerate board position, rather than resolve a bomb.  Honestly, I couldn't care less what card I kill them with in my Stax deck, as the "kill condition" is the last card I usually add to the decklist.  If that kill condition isn't putting me further ahead in some fashion, then I'm probably not running it.  For me, doing 20 or so damage in an afterthought.


~Matt Morrison

[Lou]

In my opinion the full-on lockout is what you want to be doing with the deck.  I did play some tempo-oriented cards in some of my latest lists, but this was because of my local meta.  Your Crucible of Worlds and Wasteland aren't that good against decks like Gifts, TPS, and Oath, because they're going to kill you before you spending 3 mana and multiple land drops (Wastelands) means anything.  It was my intention to grab the earliest amount of tempo I could, and use that to develop a degenerate board position, rather than resolve a bomb.  Honestly, I couldn't care less what card I kill them with in my Stax deck, as the "kill condition" is the last card I usually add to the decklist.  If that kill condition isn't putting me further ahead in some fashion, then I'm probably not running it.  For me, doing 20 or so damage in an afterthought.


~Matt Morrison

Are you saying a full on lock in any Stax build, or specifiically Uba or Traditional?

[Hydra]

All it ever seems to do in games I've played/watched is force both players to play draw-go for 2-3 turns before one of them draws into something good, and usually it's not the Stax player.

This captures what Tangle Wire is supposed to do.  When you don't really have cards that flat win you the game, you really can't expect to draw them.  A deck that has MT,VT,DT, and Tinker can reasonably expect to draw one of those cards to play Tinker than a deck that doesn't contain any of those cards.  In 3 turns of Tangle Wire tapping down, Stax has drawn a land, Null rod, and Smokestack, while the opponent has drawn things like Brainstorm, Fetchland, MT/Gifts/whatever.  Big difference there.

Going back to what I was getting at with the Fish example, should Stax use its lock pieces to create tempo and then abuse that tempo, or should be attempting to assemble a full lock?

I agree that tempo is what Tangle Wire does, and you pretty much made my argument for me there.  If you're going for total lockdown, I don't think you can afford to bother with tempo cards that can slow you up just as much as they slow your opponent, as your opponent can play more "broken" cards than you realistically can. 

I don't think there is a "specific" way to be approaching Stax, as it's really up to playstyle.  Personally, myself along with a couple of my teammates prefer to use lock pieces to buy you time for the bom instead of going the total lockdown route.  I've never seen a list that went for the total lockdown that actually looked playable to me, mainly because you have to clutter up your deck with a lot of redundant cards without really having a way to win, something that I feel is completely folly in a format where a lot of decks can and will answer your entire board position and kill you in a single turn regardless of what you may have set up.

[nataz]

What does Uba Stax do with tempo it gets from Tangle Wire?  Play more stuff, some of which might not do much more than is already out there.  What does RolandStax do with that tempo from Tangle Wire?  It does something ridiculous.  Constraining the opponent with yet more artifacts does not necessarily bring you closer to winning the game.

A while ago, I noted that I looked at UbaStax as the "aggro-control" (i.e., fishy!) of the stax archetype. In comparison, Chang's stax list can be compared to a combo-control version (i.e., Gifts).

While maybe a strange comparison on the surface, I don't think its a completely inaccurate one. Look at it this way, GayRed, at its heart, was a mini-style prison deck with a slow plodding win condition. A turn 1 island = daze protection, or in stax terms SOR. A turn two hatchling now gave the option of a second SOR, where as a second turn Standstill was like a piss poor meditate. The role of wasteland and Null Rod was obvious. Fish continuously worked on an opponents mana base, stranding potential threats in hand, while it slowly won with little 1/1 beaters.

I think tangle wire fits just fine into this plan. You ask "what does the tangle wire buy you besides more lock components", my answer would be that it buys more time for further mana denial and beats. It's also fairly relevant to note that a combonation of tangle wire and mask helps to eliminate/temper the usefulness of sorcery speed threats in hand, similar in that standstill rewarded an opposing player for playing cheap instant answers (albit durring a fish players EOT rather then durring an uba players Upkeep).

Chang stax can be analyzed in a similar way, except instead of buyng lots of time for small beats, it only needs to buys a small 1-turn window of time for a tinker/whatever.

This is comparable to UbaStax (and in my opinion, comparable to the older welder mud decks which in some cases didnt even pack a win condition!-who remembers bluffing welder beats for the win?). The problem I think most people have is that they look at UbaStax as a "super lock.dec", and try to completely stop your opponent from playing spells. The thing is, you don't have to lock an opponent out of the game, you just have to lock it out long enough that monkeys and welders, and b-rings can do 20 to the dome.

I can't help but get the feeling that you like to win "right now", and the tension you feel while playing ubastax doesn't necessarily stem from the deck itself, but you being uncomfortable with an aggro-control style win condition.

Conversely, maybe its possible that in the deck list you are playing, there are no longer enough classic aggro elements for you to capitalize on the short term mana denial that tangle wire provides. But again, thats not a failure of a deck archetype, just poor deckbuilding w/in that archetype.

[RaZe]

Almost every competitive needs to be proficient at two things. Winning and not loosing. Vintage is about brokenness. So trendwise most decks find an powerfull yet efficient win condition so as they can devote the rest of their card slots for disruption and protection. [Gifts, Dragon, Oath, etc.] Some however build a defensive wall as impenetrable as they can while trying to mount a small and patient offensive strategy. [All forms of Fish and most rogue decks] Then there are the odd balls like which has so much raw power in it's build that it can basically race, dodge or blast through whatever defense it's opponent can put up. [MD Tendrils, Long.dec, Goblins]

Having played the archetype for 6 months now [4/2 split 5C/Uba respectively], both have the same fundamental nature.

"Disrupt[lock] the opponent from playing it's key spells [BOMBS] and it's disruption [countermagic & silverbullets] with permanents in an attempt to further asymmetrize Smokestack in favor of the Stax player."

The difference is that each variation have given it's focus on two sides of the game.

5C [Changstax] focuses on it's BOMBS and designs it's deck around it. It might be categorized as a reactive deck compared to Uba, but it can afford to be that way because all it needs is one opening and it will decimate you from the ground you are standing on before you can even say "OH SH!+"


Uba.Stax however focuses on it's disruption and tries to slip in whatever win condition it can somehow fit inside. Proactive by nature, but it is necessary route given its lack of broken-ness and silverbullets. You might even be able to argue that Uba.Stax is the most expensive hate.dec

In all essence, Uba would be like being put into prison so you can serve 40yrs being anally raped and sodomized by stinky, ugly, hairy old Ogres ever so slowly until you metally or physically break. Whereas 5C is like binding you in shackles and leg weights as it builds its bomb and when given the window of opportunity, lays it on you to to have your bloody insides discharge all over the place before you can struggle to break free.

Workshop decks have the most consistently explosive openings, however this is only truly relevent if the mana advantage is used for disruption, not powering out juggernauts. Stax rules because it dedicates all its energy on overpowering enemy's ability to do anything.

Most of this statement can be easily agreed upon except for maybe that one bolded word. 5C stax is a living contradiction to that one word, and it holds enough credit from itself to strongly question it. If the the main complaint or weakness of Uba.Stax is the lack of a decent clock or "bomb", They maybe the bomb that it needs has already been discovered, but ultimately discarded due to that aforementioned philosophy. Maybe Karn or GR.Uba.Stax is the answer to that lacking ooomph that it needs.

[Evenpence]

I agree and second absolutely everything Nataz has said.

Ubastax IS the harder-lock version of the deck, "stax," and doesn't have many answers to win.  It tries to proactively disrupt, much like mono-blue in a way, as well.  If something gets on the board, I have little recourses for how to stop it.  If it's an enchantment game 1, I can't get rid of it, straight up.  Luckily, very few enchantments are played in type 1 in the MD.

Ubastax's goal is to disrupt to the point of locking your opponent out of the game completely.  When you don't do this, you lose.  Luckily, with the high number of lock pieces and the extreme redundancy of lock pieces in Ubastax, you achieve this lock very often.

I have VERY rarely won a game wher I have not had the opponent completely locked up.  The 5c Stax mirror is the most frequent occurance of this, when you'll win with b-ring recursion to the face, but you can win with other archetypes as well.

Ubastax is a conglomerate of nearly every single kind of deck in other ways, but it always seeks to establish complete control and dominion over the board, and usually does it with Smokestack, although other cards can also do it (Null Rod+Strip Lock, etc).

The deck suffers from everything that people have been saying it's suffered from - lack of tutoring ability, lack of answers, etc.  However, it makes up for this by locking the opponent out of the game very early.  Tangle Wire is not a 'tempo' piece for us, it is a piece which enables us to play other spells and also keeps the enemy from attacking us until we get active stax out.

You will not believe the amount of times I've been on the draw, and I go:  Tangle Wire, go.  Smokestack, go.  Tangle Wire, go.  I win those games.  Tangle Wire prevents drains, which are my biggest fear.  They're also REALLY good with Mox Monkey, and have unbelievable synergy with the deck.  While you've said, JD, that people don't talk about what works well with what in the deck, I would completely agree, but you can't say that I don't.

You know I respect you immensely, mostly as a player, and especially as a deckbuilder.  I hope you keep doing well with the deck if you continue to play it (congrats again on your T4 finish!).

[pyr0ma5ta]

Ubastax IS the harder-lock version of the deck, "stax," and doesn't have many answers to win.  It tries to proactively disrupt, much like mono-blue in a way, as well.

I disagree.  Mono blue has exactly 2 answers to everything in the game. 
1) No
2) Bounce.

Ubastax has 2 answers to everything in the game.
1) Make sure it never gets cast
2) Smokestack

I'd almost be tempted to compare Ubastax to a discard deck.  It proactively shuts off spells in your opponent's hand and deck, and quickly reduces your opponent's outs to 0.  From there, it is assumed you can win at your leisure.  It could be through a late-game Negator as old discard decks would do, or through barbarian rings to the face nowadays, but the point is this: your main goal is to make your opponent not do stuff.  Unlike MUC, which lets you do stuff, just makes sure it never resolves.

Other flavors of Stax such as Cron or Chang focus more on other kinds of disruption, but the goal should always be the same.  First and foremost, limit your opponent's deck and cripple the cards he has in hand, and lock his outs.  From there on, ensure your victory, either in the form of Karn, Barbarian Ring, or even a tutor'd up Sundering Titan. 

I would hesitate to compare Stax to a aggro-control strategy like fish, because Fish has 2 goals, in this order:
1) Drop 2 or 4 power on the board
2) Don't lose for long enough
Stax doesn't want to start the clock and protect it until it wins the game.  Stax wants to make sure it has all the time in the world to win the game.

[dogleg969]

In my opinion the full-on lockout is what you want to be doing with the deck.  I did play some tempo-oriented cards in some of my latest lists, but this was because of my local meta.  Your Crucible of Worlds and Wasteland aren't that good against decks like Gifts, TPS, and Oath, because they're going to kill you before you spending 3 mana and multiple land drops (Wastelands) means anything.  It was my intention to grab the earliest amount of tempo I could, and use that to develop a degenerate board position, rather than resolve a bomb.  Honestly, I couldn't care less what card I kill them with in my Stax deck, as the "kill condition" is the last card I usually add to the decklist.  If that kill condition isn't putting me further ahead in some fashion, then I'm probably not running it.  For me, doing 20 or so damage in an afterthought.


~Matt Morrison

Are you saying a full on lock in any Stax build, or specifiically Uba or Traditional?

Any Stax build.  Sorry if that wasn't clear, but I never specifically said.  I would say about half the games I win with the deck are from concession to a lock.  I've seen Stax decks that could only kill with a Welder, because unless you're running out of time in the round it normally doesn't matter.

[Liam-K]

JD, while I suspected from your posts over the last month or so that you had been toying with uba stax, I humbly submit based on your posts in this thread that perhaps you are not playing tangle wire correctly.  I get the distinct feeling you are dropping it independantly of the rest of your board/hand, which is not how the card is intended to be used.  If it's not helping you because it's buying you 2-3 turns you wouldn't have done anything anyway, why did you cast it?

As you said, tangle wire threatens something abusive in the next few turns.  As such, it needs to be played when you can do something abusive in the next few turns, such as ramp smokestack, get a relevant welder online, or power out lock pieces while your opponent is tapped down.  If you have a hand full of irrelevant cards, which can happen with uba stax, playing tangle wire is a waste of a card.  It will not stop drain decks from going oops-I-win while you try to finish the game, that is not the point of the card.  Uba Stax is not the only deck that can have games stolen from it through random lucksackery, but if you want an anti-lucksack card, tangle wire is not your man.

I also have to admit that 3 bazaars looks bad, as does 2 uba mask, and I've never liked going below 2 duplicant.  I do think you played too many locks, but your list is especially lock-heavy and conversely light on other cards.



All that being said, I do think the deck does need to be able to threaten ending the game more easily.  This is not a problem I have the answer to, I think karn and tinker are both incorrect in uba stax.   Atog?  lol.

[Changster]

5c Stax has long been known for creating hard locks.  Uba may take a faster route to do it, however, I prefer juggling lock pieces via tutors, welding, and what not before it is established.  The hardest lock in the game can be achieved by both decks:  Crucible/Trinisphere/Strip.  That in my opinion is the best lock out there.  One that won't screw your own moxen or counter your own spells.  Plus, if that lock has been established and your non-workshop opponent has no moxen/artifact mana inplay, there is not one way to get out of it.  I continue to play 5c Stax and not Uba simply because I have so many ways to get to that lock, or something close to it.  My build essentially runs 5 Strip Mines by using the DT, VT, Imperial Seal, and Crop Rotation.  As I see it, the importance of Strip Mine and finding it in each game continually grows. 

So you may ask, "How come you only run 3 Crucibles if that is the most important lock to achieve?"
The deck doesn't need redundancy, as Uba clearly exemplifies. 

A good Stax player will recognize how to recover from the lucky draws of his opponent and re-establish board control once the dust has cleared.  I have witnessed many times Uba getting completely reamed after the opponent plays a well-timed artifact bouncing spell. 

One last thing...5c Stax offers players plenty of broken spells which can be played in a conventional manner or creatively.  The deck tests the pilot to think "outside of the box" when planning a course of action.  The deck is one of the most challenging decks I have ever picked up and I still learn new tricks with it at every tournament I play.  Maybe the reason why I have had a decent amount of success with it is that I have committed myself to sit down, learn about these minute intricacies and synergies within the deck to apply them at the most opportune times.  Often times, I feel like I stumble upon unconventional plays no one else has tried before.  Because of those plays, I believe I create opportunities for my deck to go in for the kill.       

[dicemanx]

One last thing...5c Stax offers players plenty of broken spells which can be played in a conventional manner or creatively.  The deck tests the pilot to think "outside of the box" when planning a course of action.  The deck is one of the most challenging decks I have ever picked up and I still learn new tricks with it at every tournament I play.  Maybe the reason why I have had a decent amount of success with it is that I have committed myself to sit down, learn about these minute intricacies and synergies within the deck to apply them at the most opportune times.  Often times, I feel like I stumble upon unconventional plays no one else has tried before.  Because of those plays, I believe I create opportunities for my deck to go in for the kill.

This is a very important point that extends to any archetype, and stresses the fact that learning to play your deck to perfection typically supercedes trying to find the "best deck" in the format or picking a deck as a "metagame" decision.

Can you give us some examples of "unconventional play" with Stax?

[Changster]

Can you give us some examples of "unconventional play" with Stax?

One example I like to refer to just happened this past weekend in Chicago against an Oath player:

With a Duress, Tangle Wire, Crucible, Workshop, Demonic Tutor, and some non-workshop mana from the start, I had one my best plays ever.  I played a first turn Duress on him which he responded by casting Ancestral Recall.  I saw that he had 2 Mana Leaks, Impulse, Brainstorm, Orchard, Razia, Wasteland, Oxidize, and Duress.  I took out his Duress with mine.  Next turn, I played Demonic Tutor with an untapped Workshop on the board.  I knew he had one Mana Leak left and mana up after countering one of my earlier spells, so I feigned getting a Strip Mine, but instead picked Black Lotus to cast 2 threats that turn.  With Wire and Crucible in hand, I really wanted to resolve the Wire to shut down his mana so I could put down more threats.  After tutoring, I cast my Crucible which got Mana Leak’d, then plopped down Lotus and Tangle Wire.  During the following turns, I racked up a few Spirit tokens which eventually smashed in for the kill under a solid lock.

It happened in Game 2 of our match and my main focus at that time was to lock his mana down via Tangle Wire, so he would never have more than 2 mana up at a time.  This is important b/c if he decided to drop an Oath into play, he would be quite vulnerable and quite susceptible to lockdown.  I knew that his hand lacked FoW at the time just because I had a first turn Duress on him.  I stripped him of his own first turn Duress and used the information of his hand to my advantage.  Due to careful analysis of his hand, I was able to set up and think of a creative way to ensure lockdown.  Most people probably would have overlooked the Lotus and gone for another "faster" bomb, say Tinker.  If I had simply gone for Tinker, that is one turn too late and one less threat played.

I feel that the "unconventional" plays are basically the ones that are unpredictable for your opponent.  With 5c Stax, I try to mask what my intentions are, be it locking with Crucible/Strip or resolving one of the deck's multiple bombs.  My build runs 3 black tutors which have the benefit of keeping your opponent constantly guessing what bomb you decided to grab.  The best ones are the uncounterables.  How is he going to know that you're stuck with a Titan in your hand b/c you're 1 mana short of casting it?  With a Welder in play, simply grabbing Bazaar will often solve this problem and it more often than not wrecks them. 

As for other examples, I will try to think of more and post them if they pop up.

[Juggernaut GO]

I got one for you:

opponent playing oath, you have a duplicant imprinting akroma on board, I'm at 2 life, he has spirit of the night left somewhere.  He skipped oathing the past 2 turns, perhaps spirit of the night is in his hand?  If I attack him  1 more time he dies.

My end step:  he casts brainstorm and puts back 2 cards gleefully.  After it resolves...I cast ancestral recall targeting him, he draws none other then the spirit of the night he put back, and can not find the oxidize to kill the duplicant. 

Best play  evar

[madmanmike25]

"What, then, is the fundamental nature of Stax?  Where should it go and what should it be trying to do?"-JDizzle

I think that the fact that Smokestack appears in NUMEROUS decks is indicative of its raw power.  You have 2 choices on how to play it: 
1.  Use smokestack to DISRUPT while you lay a win conditon and swing, swing, swing, win
2.  Use smokestack to establish total board control and win at your leisure.

And lets face it, BOTH ARE EFFECTIVE.  You can win with both types.  You can either use tutors and instant speed draw spells, or the uncounterable ability of bazaar.

As to the direction of the stax deck....unless better lock pieces come out, you can alter the deck as you see fit while keeping the essential cards(Cow, chalice, Smokestack, welder)
There are several slots you can tinker with.  You would have to try hard to make a crappy Stax build, unless you are on a budget.

I have played both versions of Stax, 4/5c and Uba, but have opted for Uba as of late.  While i do miss tinker, ancestral, and the tutors, i have liked the stability of Uba.  I also love the ability to mass murder welders via barbarian ring.  In UbaStax variants, anything less than 4 bazaars is completly and utterly incorrect (you can quote me and tattoo this on your forehead).  I'm also pretty sure that AT LEAST 3 Ubamasks are needed, 4 is debatable
As for the tanglewire debate, I'm with evanpence.  T-wire has been rockin for me as well.  There is just something about winning a game with BOTH Razia and Akroma on the table that makes me warm inside.  Oh, I tried duplicants, even three of them.  But seeing Two of these in your opening hand sux unless you have the mana, but then again dupe+welder owns IF you can do it.  But Tangle wire is great on the play, or your 2nd turn if you were on the draw. 


But alas it is almost all moot, it is a card game after all.  Winning the die roll and/or having the better opening hand will dictate the winner.  I have made my share of play errors mind you, but sometimes a well built deck simply wont allow me lose.