[discussion]clouded by creatures; what piece of the colorpie

[BruiZar]

nowadays there are so many good cheap creatures i find myself struggling to choose the right colors for a fish/aggro deck. i've made a small list of creature that are all usefull, i probably forgot a few.
ofcourse it depends on the game plan though some creatures are just too powerful not to play. goblin welder and dark confidant for example. but then you can't use meddling mage because you'd play 4 colors in a deck that depends on colored mana alot. trying to come up with a high end build left me with this color problem.

so heres my list of creatures

kataki
savannah lions
nimble mongoose
werebear
meddling mage
watch wolf
grim lavamancer
old man of the sea
silver knight
waterfront bouncer
goblin piledriver
kird ape
goblin welder
goblin leggionaire
crystaline sliver
wild mongrell
dark confidant
sarcomancy
negator
ghazban ogre
river boa
galinas knight
mother of ruins
hammer mage
viashino heretic
gorilla shaman
hunted horror
hunted phantasm [hmz, once fooled around with a ur build for brightstone ritual.]
coretapper
razorfin hunter
gilded drake
rootwater thief
saprazzan heir [to some extent]
ication javelneers

now i'm left clouded by creatures. most of them are very strong while others are not. has anyone else had this problem when building fish/aggro type builds. i would love some suggestions because im always way too tempted to splash a color, and before i  know it i play 5 color fish.

thanks

[Sgt. Pepper]

First of all I would cut down on the number of creatures on that list. Some of those just really aren't that good or just suck balls like Saprazzan Heir.
Cards I would take of:

Saprazzan Heir: this creature is ALWAYS bad. When you want to draw cards he will just do 1 damage, when you want to deal 1 damage you will get to draw 3 cards. Besides, there isn't a lot of blocking going on in vintage anyway and their are far better creatures out there against fish, like Grizzly Bears which is at least a 2/2.
Hunted Horror/Hunted Phantasm: I've never seen these get played in a fish build and I can't imagine why. 1 Bounce or removal spell and all of a sudden your opponent will race you instead of the other way around. You could run Engineered Explosives, but thats a really bad to card combo that won't even win you the game.
Mother of Ruins: doesn't disrupt your opponent, doesn't beat down. Neither White Weenie nor GW beats plays this.
Ghazban Ogre: are you kidding me?
Crystaline Sliver: good card, but no-one plays with slivers anymore.
Goblin Welder: wrong deck, and a sideboard card at best.
Goblin Piledriver: again, wrong deck.
Silver Knight/Galinas Knight: sideboard material against a deck thats not widely played, so it shouldn't be a factor in your deck determination. Obviously changes if your metagame if without proxies/with lots of burn/goblins.
River Boa: bit outdated if you ask me. Wild Mongrel hits harder, Gaea's Skyfolk pitches to blue, so I don't think there's any place left for the Boa. Could be wrong though.
Razorfin Hunter: same as boa, outdated I believe. Not completely terrible though.
Sacromany: this card sees play?!

Cards I would add:

Stormscape Apprentice
Cloud of Faeries: I hate it, but other love it.
Savannah Lions/ Isamaru Hound of Konda
True Believer
Basking Rootwalla
Voidmage Prodigy

I'm sure I'm forgetting some cards though. Next I would add all the relevant spells, divide them by color then divide them by what type of deck they belong into. Savannah Lions for example would suck balls in a control fish build, while Voidmage Prodigy might shine their. Anyway, just limiting yourself to just creatures is pretty limited since cards like Swords to Plowshares, Force of Will or Rack and Ruin tend to make people decide to take 1 directing just as much as creatures do.

[Guli]

nice idea, good post

I think the REAL bombs in the current meta are

Dark Confidant (if you get him cast turn 1 and he stays in for a couple of turns you win)

Withered Wretch (with this guy on the table a welder is simply a 1/1 and this guy makes sure Will isn't game winning. Also stops crucible/strip)

Kataki (do you know those explosive openings with workshop? This guy sometimes hoppes in and simply ownez the board, very effective against moxes and artifacts)

Meddling mage (Ow man combine this guy with a chalice for 1 against a sligh or something and they autolose. This guy is really strong if used correctly.)

I think these are the best overall.

True Believer is a good sideboard and is also very strong against certain decks.

Welder/Shaman/Grim/vandal are RED's best choices i guess. puppy is also use often but i don't like that card so much.

Best green creature is Wilde mongrel.

When you make a deck you have to try to have a gameplan and then chose your little guys correctly. Going for a mix of plas is also possible but it can be less strong. I don't think we have found the best combination of these little bears yet. I do know confidant should be added when looking for it. It is a privae howling mine that draws/digs and looks for answers.

[Harlequin]

Good Start, Here are some that I think I would add.

The ones marked with a " * " are much more commonly played than the rest.

Goblin vandal *
Hearth Kami
Weathed Wayfayer
Ninja of deep hours *
Flying men
Grayscale Ghazrilla
Soldevi Soldier
Spiketail hatchling
Sea Singer
Preacher
Stearn Proctor
Withered wretch *
Skullsnatcher
Mesmeric Fiend *
Hypnotic spector
Dimir Cutpurse
Shadowmage infiltrator
Ophidian
Xantid swarm *
Skyshroud Elite
Jungle Lion
Skyshroud Ridgeback
Arcbound Ravager?

--- ADDED ----
As far as the traditional "pie" is concerned, Is that *gets out his little bald kid* ... "There is no pie"

Because vintage is comprised of so many different sets, It includes every shift that the pie has made.  Black still doesn't really have artifact or enchantment destruction... but still the pie is very blurred.  Your delma appear to be that you want to include all the best answers for each type of situation and in order to do that you would need to go 5 color.  But switch your thinking around a bit, If the pie is blurred, then your ALL your answers can generally be found in as little as 2 slices of pie.   (now I'm hungry:/ )

This Pie goes beyond just creatures.  And it only includes what that color excells at, I know that black has cards like gate to phyrexia ... but lets face it black cant really hate on artifacts.

BLUE:
-Bounce
-Draw
-Countermagic
-Evasion - Flying, Island walk
-"Gain control of target"

WHITE:
-Ench Hate
-Evasion - Flying, Shadow
-Artifact Hate
-Large Creature Hate
-Beats
-Land Protection - Wayfayer, Sacrede Ground

RED:
-Beats
-Artifact Hate
-Small creature Hate - "deal 2 damage" like lavamancer, lava dart, magma jet
-Red Countermagic - REB, Pyroblast
-Land Denial

BLACK:
-Hand Disruption
-Grave Hate
-Small Creature Hate - Darkblast - E Plauge
-Large Creature Hate - Edict
-Card advantage - Confidant, shadowmage, cutpurse
-Land Denial - Sinkhole

GREEN:
-BEATS
-Boost - +1/+1 until end of turn (for avoiding small dirrect damage)
-Artifact Hate
-Ench Hate
-Protection - Xandid swarm, City of Solitude
-Graveyard hate ... kinda, they only have Ground Seal
-Land Denial ... Technically winter's grasp, Ice Storm, Thermokarst

ARTIFACT (in reguards to what it can offer fish):
-Artifact hate - Null Rod
-Boost/Beats - Jitte
-Acceleratoin - Moxen, Vial
-Spell Lock - Spheres and Chalice
-Recursion - Crucible

[hollowbody]

.Hunted Horror/Hunted Phantasm: I've never seen these get played in a fish build and I can't imagine why. 1 Bounce or removal spell and all of a sudden your opponent will race you instead of the other way around. You could run Engineered Explosives, but thats a really bad to card combo that won't even win you the game.

Ghazban Ogre: are you kidding me?

Sacromany: this card sees play?!

I acutally have a Suicide black deck with a bit of green splashed in for pernicious deeds and putrefy and it sports hunted horrors and sacromancy, as well as carnophage and ghazban ogre.

Personally, i think ghazban ogre is pretty damned good, considering most decks in vintage these days don't do any damage at all unless they are going to kill you anyway. against any combo deck, you're facing 20 points of tendrils, at which point its irrelevant who controls what. prison decks wont hurt you until they have you locked down, and at that point, you can always sac ghazban to smokestack. if you can run a deck without CoB or fetchlands, you will likely always be ahead in life. as far as fish goes, BG is much quicker than any other build. Dark ritual, mana elves and ESG just make things silly.

besides, there is always a 'cool' factor when you play a card that no-one else would dream of. also, didn't paul sligh's original deck have flarg goblins alongside dwarves? sometimes crazy just plain wins.

[BruiZar]

i like where this thread is going.

lots of creatures i didnt come up at first but are pretty obvious, some are less obvious..

its impossible to write all the viable and semi viable cards in a single post, which confirms my initial point of it being damn hard to choose between creatures.
about hunted phantasm, its unblockability is very strong besides it being a 4/6. the 5 goblins are exceptionally better than the stronger critters that the other hunted's sport.
1/1's are easy to kill and they are goblins.

being able to play brightstone ritual is really cool. red also sports burning wish and brand/piledriver/welder which could make a sort of alternative goblin/controlfish like deck so i see some potential although i'm not really sure how to effectively make a good decklist out of it yet.

i agree that i should not be thinking like this
http://www.agtim.ch/fu3/san908rgb.png

but like this
http://mediagods.com/tools/images/spectrum.jpg


other cards to mention
burning-tree shaman
tinstreet hooligan
magus of the unseen
daring apprentice
eternal witness
orcish lumberjack

keep posting more viable creatures and mingle in the post.

[hollowbody]

other cards to mention

orcish lumberjack

i've always liked this card and RG beatdown is always great. throw in a couple of tinder walls, werebears, elvish archer, some bolts, shattering spree, jackal pup, ESG and maybe rogue elephant if you're feeling lucky and you have a deck. don't forget the pillage and creeping mold for some good old mix and match disruption/hate.

this is very similar to a deck i played about a year ago, its as budget as it comes, but it wins games. lots of them

[brianpk80]

Some other good critters:

Nantuko Shade
Quirion Ranger
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
Nezumi Graverobber
Merieke Ri Berit
Spore Frog
Thoughtpicker Witch
Metalworker
Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
Samurai of the Pale Curtain
Spike Feeder

Of all that have been listed so far, my favorites would have to be:

True Believer
Gorilla Shaman
Ninja of the Deep Hours
Magus of the Unseen
Meddling Mage
Goblin Welder
Quirion Ranger
Grim Lavamancer
Waterfront Bouncer
Rootwater Thief

With the exception of the Ranger, most of those cards above can
singlehandedly swing a game in your favor.